Incompleteness of roster remodeling explains 3-6 record

[ferryrich]

Not that I know much about the colts cap situation, but didn't they free up loads with Manning off the books, while we got hit with the Mara penalty? And we were already up at the limit.

[TimSkin]

^ Responding to all of the above^
Pat Angerer missed first 5 games of the season andhas been hobbled when playing.
Robert Mathis has missed 3 games this season
Dwight Freeney has missed 2 games and only has 2 sacks on the season. He is slowed by a an ankle injury.

Colts CB Vontae Davis (knee) has been ruled out for Week 10.Davis has appeared in two games since Week 3, playing start to finish in just one of those contests. He's out indefinitely with no timetable to return.

Colts LE Cory Redding (knee) has been ruled out for Week 7 against the Browns.The Indy defense is severely banged up. Also ruled out are DTs Fili Moala (knee) and Martin Tevaseu (ankle), OLB Robert Mathis (knee), and CB Darius Butler (shoulder). Inside linebacker Pat Angerer (foot) is listed as questionable. Trent Richardson could have a field day against the league's No. 29 rush defense

Of the five guys TimSkin mentioned, 4 have missed games and Freeney is not having a Freeney season because he is a linebacker this year. Look at the last quote. "Indy D is severely banged up." Yet they still perform good enough to win.

AND Get this - the Colts are transitioning from a 4-3 to a 3-4. According to Haz, it takes 3 years to reach respectability. The Colts, by no means a good defense, have at least played well enough to let the offense win some games.

Talk about their soft schedule all you guys want, they still only gave up 327 yards to the Vikes ( a common opponent) while the Skins gave up 421 to the Vikes.

Talk about their inspired play for their coach? Well that is definitely an indictment againt Shanny and Haz because you are saying that the Skins D cannot get inpired by their coaches and the fact that they now have an offense.

I disagree with that indictment. The Skins D has been playing its hearts out, but when you are playing hard in a scheme that does not fit your talent level, it becomes evident that your effort are futile.

Colts 6-3!

Yes, the comparison is relevant!

Now, even Darrell Green and Charles Mann have joined in to say that it isn't just about the talent. This is a coaching issue. A misuse of the talent on this team by a coaching staff hell bent on fitting players to a scheme.

I was just making the point that there are a few more important pieces remaining on the Colts team from the past besides Wayne than what DaSkinz says even if they aren't having the best year.

The thing that surprised me about the Colts with that 6-3 record was before Thursdays game they had only forced 3 TOs all year and they are 15th in total yards on D but they are still getting it done somehow. We need to start getting it done especially on D.....somehow.

Mann and Green also said this can very easily be fixed so lets see if Haz and Co. can actually do SOMETHING during the bye so we can atleast slow down other teams.

[Red_One43]

^ Responding to all of the above^
Pat Angerer missed first 5 games of the season andhas been hobbled when playing.
Robert Mathis has missed 3 games this season
Dwight Freeney has missed 2 games and only has 2 sacks on the season. He is slowed by a an ankle injury.

Colts CB Vontae Davis (knee) has been ruled out for Week 10.Davis has appeared in two games since Week 3, playing start to finish in just one of those contests. He's out indefinitely with no timetable to return.

Colts LE Cory Redding (knee) has been ruled out for Week 7 against the Browns.The Indy defense is severely banged up. Also ruled out are DTs Fili Moala (knee) and Martin Tevaseu (ankle), OLB Robert Mathis (knee), and CB Darius Butler (shoulder). Inside linebacker Pat Angerer (foot) is listed as questionable. Trent Richardson could have a field day against the league's No. 29 rush defense

Of the five guys TimSkin mentioned, 4 have missed games and Freeney is not having a Freeney season because he is a linebacker this year. Look at the last quote. "Indy D is severely banged up." Yet they still perform good enough to win.

AND Get this - the Colts are transitioning from a 4-3 to a 3-4. According to Haz, it takes 3 years to reach respectability. The Colts, by no means a good defense, have at least played well enough to let the offense win some games.

Talk about their soft schedule all you guys want, they still only gave up 327 yards to the Vikes ( a common opponent) while the Skins gave up 421 to the Vikes.

Talk about their inspired play for their coach? Well that is definitely an indictment againt Shanny and Haz because you are saying that the Skins D cannot get inpired by their coaches and the fact that they now have an offense.

I disagree with that indictment. The Skins D has been playing its hearts out, but when you are playing hard in a scheme that does not fit your talent level, it becomes evident that your effort are futile.

Colts 6-3!

Yes, the comparison is relevant!

Now, even Darrell Green and Charles Mann have joined in to say that it isn't just about the talent. This is a coaching issue. A misuse of the talent on this team by a coaching staff hell bent on fitting players to a scheme.

I was just making the point that there are a few more important pieces remaining on the Colts team from the past besides Wayne than what DaSkinz says even if they aren't having the best year.

The thing that surprised me about the Colts with that 6-3 record was before Thursdays game they had only forced 3 TOs all year and they are 15th in total yards on D but they are still getting it done somehow. We need to start getting it done especially on D.....somehow.

Mann and Green also said this can very easily be fixed so lets see if Haz and Co. can actually do SOMETHING during the bye so we can atleast slow down other teams.

Ok, I get your point and that my point is different. What I read DaSkinz saying that the excuses for Shanny and Co need to stop. I agree. I admit that I was one of the folk making excuses for them for the first two years. It is evident that this is a coaching problem and a personnel decision problem (Shanny problem) as to why we are 3-6. The Colts D has been devastated by injuries this year and are in transition and as you noted, they only had three turnovers before Thursday night, but yet somehow they still get the job done. No comparison is exact, but Colts had cap issues, lockout issues just like the Skins, but yet, they still play better D than the Skins.

Like everybody else, I hope that Shanny and Co. make the right adjustments to get this thing back on track. I am optimistic that we can play better defense. Not great defense, but at least mid range D which should be good enough to win a majority of the remaining game. We showed that we could beat the Giants for 59 minutes with what we were doing, so the capability is there like Green and Mann are saying.

[TimSkin]

^ Responding to all of the above^
Pat Angerer missed first 5 games of the season andhas been hobbled when playing.
Robert Mathis has missed 3 games this season
Dwight Freeney has missed 2 games and only has 2 sacks on the season. He is slowed by a an ankle injury.

Colts CB Vontae Davis (knee) has been ruled out for Week 10.Davis has appeared in two games since Week 3, playing start to finish in just one of those contests. He's out indefinitely with no timetable to return.

Colts LE Cory Redding (knee) has been ruled out for Week 7 against the Browns.The Indy defense is severely banged up. Also ruled out are DTs Fili Moala (knee) and Martin Tevaseu (ankle), OLB Robert Mathis (knee), and CB Darius Butler (shoulder). Inside linebacker Pat Angerer (foot) is listed as questionable. Trent Richardson could have a field day against the league's No. 29 rush defense

Of the five guys TimSkin mentioned, 4 have missed games and Freeney is not having a Freeney season because he is a linebacker this year. Look at the last quote. "Indy D is severely banged up." Yet they still perform good enough to win.

AND Get this - the Colts are transitioning from a 4-3 to a 3-4. According to Haz, it takes 3 years to reach respectability. The Colts, by no means a good defense, have at least played well enough to let the offense win some games.

Talk about their soft schedule all you guys want, they still only gave up 327 yards to the Vikes ( a common opponent) while the Skins gave up 421 to the Vikes.

Talk about their inspired play for their coach? Well that is definitely an indictment againt Shanny and Haz because you are saying that the Skins D cannot get inpired by their coaches and the fact that they now have an offense.

I disagree with that indictment. The Skins D has been playing its hearts out, but when you are playing hard in a scheme that does not fit your talent level, it becomes evident that your effort are futile.

Colts 6-3!

Yes, the comparison is relevant!

Now, even Darrell Green and Charles Mann have joined in to say that it isn't just about the talent. This is a coaching issue. A misuse of the talent on this team by a coaching staff hell bent on fitting players to a scheme.

I was just making the point that there are a few more important pieces remaining on the Colts team from the past besides Wayne than what DaSkinz says even if they aren't having the best year.

The thing that surprised me about the Colts with that 6-3 record was before Thursdays game they had only forced 3 TOs all year and they are 15th in total yards on D but they are still getting it done somehow. We need to start getting it done especially on D.....somehow.

Mann and Green also said this can very easily be fixed so lets see if Haz and Co. can actually do SOMETHING during the bye so we can atleast slow down other teams.

Ok, I get your point and that my point is different. What I read DaSkinz saying that the excuses for Shanny and Co need to stop. I agree. I admit that I was one of the folk making excuses for them for the first two years. It is evident that this is a coaching problem and a personnel decision problem (Shanny problem) as to why we are 3-6. The Colts D has been devastated by injuries this year and are in transition and as you noted, they only had three turnovers before Thursday night, but yet somehow they still get the job done. No comparison is exact, but Colts had cap issues, lockout issues just like the Skins, but yet, they still play better D than the Skins.

Like everybody else, I hope that Shanny and Co. make the right adjustments to get this thing back on track. I am optimistic that we can play better defense. Not great defense, but at least mid range D which should be good enough to win a majority of the remaining game. We showed that we could beat the Giants for 59 minutes with what we were doing, so the capability is there like Green and Mann are saying.

I do agree with you for the most part...
In my statement it says exactly what you highlighted that even despite all the distractions and injuries "they are still getting it done somehow"

We need to just stop making excuses buckle down and start KICKING SOME A$$!!! I think we can all agree on that We can play better D especially if we start tackling better since a lot of 1st downs we give up end up being missed tackles or poor form tackling where a LB wont stand up the runner and drive him back instead of throwing him a few yards forward. Also if we can get a little more consistent pass rush that would be absolutely HUGE.

One thing that I did agree with Mann on was Kerrigan and Orakpo need a coach that has been there done that and can teach them "How" to rush the passer

[Burgundy&Wha?]

What immediately contracts Shanny's claim is his trade for McNabb. Why in the world he ever did that when he KNEW he wanted -- make that NEEDED -- to turnover this roster make no sense whatsoever.

It was like someone proclaiming their personal need for fiscal restraint and then running out to buy a Margareta maker. No sense what-so-evah.....

[Deadskins]

Example the Colts look at them last year versus this year.

Please! The Colts situation has already been discussed. Last year was an aberration because they didn't have Manning. Other than last season, their worst record over the last five seasons was 10-6. This is hardly a rebuilding team. Add to that, they play in the AFC South (12 games against AFC opponents), the emotional lift from playing for a coach sidelined with Leukemia, our injuries to key players on defense, and the Mara cap hit, and the comparison is ludicrous.

That's just not true at all ... the Colts CLEANED HOUSE at the end of last season ... players, coaches, and the front office! They did everything but take the horseshoe off their helmets ... and all the analysts were in agreement about how much better a situation RG3 was going to have with the Redskins, than Luck was going to have with the Colts who were just beginning a full scale rebuild this year.

Wow Ray, I can't believe you're using "the analysts" to back your argument. Those are the same analysts who also say Shanny is a great coach, and that Luck is the more pro-ready QB. And you totally ignored the other three factors I pointed to for the disparity in records between the teams. I tend to agree with a lot of your points, but to fire a coach mid-season is not something The Danny should do again. Our only remaining game where we might not have a real chance of winning is against the Ravens, and with Ray Lewis out, I'm not even sure about that one. You have to let this season play out before making any coaching changes. I've never been a fan of Shanahan's, but I'm willing to stay the course for now.

[Kilmer72]

The one thing the Shans did do though was got us younger. We have to give credit there. Our offense works to a degree. I also agree firing the Shans is a bit premature. Like many times before Ray makes sense. I just think it would send a really bad message to prospective coaches to get rid of him this soon. I really think we are stuck with all of our coaches for a year and a half. I wish that things would come together so we wouldn't have to. I am not blind. I see we still have major problems. I guess I just want to go down with a fight rather than rebuild again.

[ACW]

The Danny should do again. Our only remaining game where we might not have a real chance of winning is against the Ravens, and with Ray Lewis out, I'm not even sure about that one. You have to let this season play out before making any coaching changes. I've never been a fan of Shanahan's, but I'm willing to stay the course for now.

If we can't beat CLEVELAND...

[Red_One43]

Talk about their inspired play for their coach? Well that is definitely an indictment againt Shanny and Haz because you are saying that the Skins D cannot get inpired by their coaches and the fact that they now have an offense.

If you can't see the difference, then you are blind.

Whether there is a difference or not, your argument doesn't fly.

The Colts didn't find out about their coach unit week 5 for the Packers game. By then they had already beaten the Vikes who would later play the Redskins. The Colts D gave up 327 yards and 20 points and our D gave up 421 and 26 points. By the time the Colts got "inspired" they weren't giving up 400 yards a game in offense. They didn't allow the like of Amendola 12 first half catches before making an adjustment.

And BTW, if it was all about inspiration, how did they turn around and lose to the Jets 35- 9 the following week against the Pack.

The Point is - there are several teams (pural) that handle defensive personnel and schemes better than Shananhan and Haz (See Shany's record the last few years in Denver). This so evident, there is no need to provide datat to back it up. These guys have had three years to show that we are moving in the right direction - I didn't say win a championship - just move in the right direction. I appreciate the good that they have done and don't advocate any firings, but what they have done to this defense stinks and the record and stats scream at you to stop making excuses for them and face the facts that teams such as the Colts are doing better with the little that they have. Blind? Really? Take a look a the 2010 Redskin D vs 2012 Redskin D stats.

[RayNAustin]

Example the Colts look at them last year versus this year.

Please! The Colts situation has already been discussed. Last year was an aberration because they didn't have Manning. Other than last season, their worst record over the last five seasons was 10-6. This is hardly a rebuilding team. Add to that, they play in the AFC South (12 games against AFC opponents), the emotional lift from playing for a coach sidelined with Leukemia, our injuries to key players on defense, and the Mara cap hit, and the comparison is ludicrous.

That's just not true at all ... the Colts CLEANED HOUSE at the end of last season ... players, coaches, and the front office! They did everything but take the horseshoe off their helmets ... and all the analysts were in agreement about how much better a situation RG3 was going to have with the Redskins, than Luck was going to have with the Colts who were just beginning a full scale rebuild this year.

Wow Ray, I can't believe you're using "the analysts" to back your argument. Those are the same analysts who also say Shanny is a great coach, and that Luck is the more pro-ready QB. And you totally ignored the other three factors I pointed to for the disparity in records between the teams. I tend to agree with a lot of your points, but to fire a coach mid-season is not something The Danny should do again. Our only remaining game where we might not have a real chance of winning is against the Ravens, and with Ray Lewis out, I'm not even sure about that one. You have to let this season play out before making any coaching changes. I've never been a fan of Shanahan's, but I'm willing to stay the course for now.

Look, I understand that you represent the more popular opinion here, and and that makes mine the odd opinion out, and subject to ridicule. That's fine .. I'm used to it ... and I'm also used to being right more often than not, in the final equation. And I'm right this time for sure .. because what is happening now, happened in year 1 and year 2 and has not changed at all for the better.

So now let me explain you why I REALLY feel the way I do .... it's a matter of principles, and honesty and integrity and personal responsibility, and standing for something ..... things that used to be considered all important qualities because you are quite frankly NOTHING without these things. Unfortunately, these qualities are no longer high on people's lists of important considerations these days, and you can see it everywhere .. not just football.

The point is ... Shanahan is a fraud, and an average coach at best. But he doesn't possess an ounce of integrity, nor should anyone place an ounce of trust in him, which is cause enough to send him packing. And to compound the problem, he's arrogant without having anything to be arrogant about. And I've made that point clear in the past, citing numerous examples that prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. This second interview with Shanahan after the post game "throw in the towel" presser, is just the most recent demonstration ... but it was so revealing as to who this man really is, it should remove any semblance of doubt for even the most stubborn or dense.

He opens the discussion by chastising the reporters for taking his remarks out of context and instructs them to call him next time before they make such unfair criticisms. Now, just who does this guy think he is anyway? These reporters don't work for Mike Shanahan, nor are they under any obligation to check with him before reporting on statements he makes, that were most certainly NOT taken out of context. We all heard what the man said, and my jaw dropped as he was saying it, so screw him and this backtracking damage control double talk. He stuck both feet in his mouth, saw the headlines in the press the next day, and the universal criticism that he surely deserved for saying what he said. Virtually everyone around the NFL came to the same exact conclusions, because there was no other conclusion to reach. That he would backtrack the next day is totally disingenuous, but is unfortunately consistent with Shanahan's past behavior. This man can't even take responsibility for his own comments, so while blaming the players for the failure on the field, he's now blaming the reporters for what transpires in the press conferences afterward? I find that infuriating and absurd. And I don't care for someone who not only demands such reverence, but expects it, and is indignant if he doesn't receive it. His routine was like the kid that stands there with the lid off the cookie jar ... face covered in chocolate, who swears he didn't take the cookies. He deserves a double spanking .. one for stealing the cookies, and another for lying about it.

A man of integrity would have said something like "Hey .. l want to clarify my comments after the game Sunday. I would first like to apologize to the players, coaches, fans and owner for my comments that indicated that I was conceding the season lost. This was a poor choice of words after an emotionally tough loss, and a lapse brought about by the frustration and disappointment of the moment. And I understand the harsh criticisms, and accept full responsibility for creating that perception, but let me assure you all, I am conceding nothing, nor is this how I expect my coaches and players to approach the final 7 games of this season. We're not out of it yet, and we will lay it all on the line, just as we do every game. And that includes me".

But that's not what he did ... he did exactly the same thing he did in 2010, with that "Cardiovascular Endurance" BS story about why he made the dreadful decision to replace McNabb with Grossman for the last drive of that game. Everyone knew that was a BS story, and it revealed an important and unflattering aspect of Shanahan's character, which he continues to demonstrate. That being a complete unwillingness to accept responsibility or even consider the idea that he could somehow be in error about anything. And if you can't admit a problem, you can't possibly fix it, which is why we keep seeing the same problems persist.

Now, just as important as the character and integrity issue is for the head coach of a team to set as an example for everyone else ... the equally damaging aspect of his comments came as a direct threat and indictment of the players by saying "for the remainder of the season, we'll see who are going to be Redskins in the years ahead" .... clearly assigning blame to the players and suggesting that continued failure will result in more personnel changes at the end of the year ... which has been the only consistent trademark of the Shanahan regime so far, other than disappointing results! The classic "the beatings will continue until morale improves" approach.

The overall point here is that there is a clear unwillingness on Shanahan's part to critically evaluate his own and his coaching staff's performance which was also clearly demonstrated in that presser when he told the reporter ... "you'll have to ask the owner if he thinks we're heading in the right direction ... I KNOW WE ARE". And just go back and look at that again, and observe Shanahan's face and body language, which clearly showed outrage and contempt for a reporter having the nerve to question his highness. What a ego maniac this guy is!! The most logical follow up question that wasn't dare asked was, "how are you so certain of this, coach"? Because from all outward appearances, it looks like the team is regressing, and in danger of finishing the season with a worse record than the previous two. Are we to assume this confidence in direction is similar to your confidence in John Beck, Coach? And your "I'll stake my reputation on him" declaration? We all know how that worked out, don't we? So, he said it .... "I'll stake my reputation on John Beck" .. so are we not allowed to hold him to those words either? Are we simply to allow Shanahan to revise history and reality at his sole discretion, whenever he finds it most convenient, and we must then just blindly accept the latest revision as the truth?

Here's my point ... setting aside all of Shanahan's arrogance and hubris, we haven't seen actual evidence of this "progress". What I see is a lot of lip service about how the team is so much improved over the "trash talent" he inherited when he got here, yet that "trash" that he got rid of was marginally more successful under an inexperienced rookie coach, than what we see now from Batman and the Boy Wonder ... not a whole lot mind you .. but slightly more successful.

Contrast that to what happened when Joe Gibbs came back in 2004. He retooled the team, and made the playoffs in the second year, while Shanahan is halfway through his third season, and we're regressing. And Gibbs made some major mistakes in personnel too ... we saw a major fall off in the defense in 2006, caused in part by the gross error of allowing our middle linebacker and QB of the defense leave and go to the Giants, and a switch to Al Saunders offensive system that your offensive QB, Jason Campbell (another of Joe's errors) couldn't get a handle on. I mention this just to illustrate the major impact personnel changes and bad decisions can cause .. and it doesn't take many of them to reap disastrous results.

And let me remind everyone, that when Zorn took over in 2008, the Redskins started the season at 6-2, and everyone was shocked. But, injuries to the offensive line and Clinton Portis caught up with them, and Jason couldn't carry the load. He needed everything to function optimally in order to be successful, and as soon as Portis was no longer reeling off 100+ yard games on the ground, the offense hit a brick wall, and the team crashed in flames. Replace Jason Campbell with a guy like RG3, and I contend that Zorn would have finished 2008 at 10-6 or better, rather than 8-8. And it wasn't his fault ... he didn't choose Jason Campbell ... Jason Campbell was Zorn's albatross and undoing.

In the final analysis, this is what I see as so OBVIOUS that I cannot believe so many others fail to see it. Nobody was suggesting that Jim Zorn be "given time" to be successful. He was expected to be successful day one .. and he actually was, until things began to unravel due to injuries and an incompetent QB. Zorn's second year was marked by the same failures that killed an otherwise excellent first half of the 2008 season ... a poor, limping o-line, and a QB that was clueless. So he was summarily stripped of play calling duties, and an offensive coordinator was jammed down his throat ... the Bingo Guy. He was then run out of town on a rail .. in favor of the great Mike Shanahan, who has proceeded to actually do worse, with better talent that Shanahan hand selected, including a QB like RG3 for which Jason Campbell is not qualified to park his car.

So I don't see the reasonableness or the logic in this rather blatant double standard, with people calling for the public execution of Zorn by the end of his first year, year and a half ... for failing to be successful playing someone else's hand with a clueless QB and a broken Clinton Portis ... while Shanahan gets a pass for failing to be successful with the hand he personally chose, including a phenomenal QB like RG3, and a remarkable RB like Alfred Morris.

But that's because I'm just dumb.

[Red_One43]

We need to just stop making excuses buckle down and start KICKING SOME A$$!!!

Your statement above is all I am saying when bringing up the Colts. I agree 100% with you. Stop making excuses. I get that Shanny wants one defense and that he thinks that they need to learn that D like the back of their hand, but Shanny needs to recognize that in the meantime, some of these guys just don't fit the scheme and he needs to adjust some things until he gets is players.

Here's why the chances are slim that Shanny will allow Haz to make the adjustments. He once traded for a QB that had the skills to make his offense be what he wanted it to be, but that QB needed the Offense to be simplified to fit what he had always done in his career. Shanny woun't budge. He was willing to watch the team lose game after game rather than make the adjustments and give into the player. Why?

It wasn't because Shanny never fits the scheme to a player. He has done that with RGIII.

Why? Shanny has a plan for the long run. Get the players to fit the scheme - don't change the scheme unless he trusts the player (Elway is one he trusted. RGIII is another)

Shanny on the Redskin D:

Shanny is dead set on getting a D like the Steeler D of the Super Bowl glory. Shanny thinks it takes years of repetition to get where the Steelers are. He said on his show that the Steelers D is good because it has played the same D for 20 years. Shanny is only in year 3 of his. He won't change on this one because he wants the players who will be here in the future to know this D like the back of their hands.

Our only hope is he tells Haz to simplifiy the D.

John Keim reported that a Steeler official told him that Haz's version of the Steeler D is much more complicated than the Steelers. I posted this article on another thread about the defense.

Often when players are constantly thinking about their assignments, they make mistakes - simple mistakes like tackling and being out in the flats.

For those who continue to say that the D cannot be simplified read Keim's article - if you don't believe Keim then Oh well. I didn't have to read Keim's article to know this. I heard Tony Romo, in the his first game against Haz, he had never seen stuff like that before. If Haz has the right players, he is a genius, but who ever lasts long enough to get the right players. The Steelers organization does - not the coaches.

[Red_One43]

So I don't see the reasonableness or the logic in this rather blatant double standard, with people calling for the public execution of Zorn by the end of his first year, year and a half ... for failing to be successful playing someone else's hand with a clueless QB and a broken Clinton Portis ... while Shanahan gets a pass for failing to be successful with the hand he personally chose, including a phenomenal QB like RG3, and a remarkable RB like Alfred Morris.

But that's because I'm just dumb.

One of the reasons one doesn't fire Shanahan and one fires Zorn is, Zorn is not guaranteed $7 million dollars for 5 years. Danny fires Shanny at the end of the season and he owes him $14 million. You wrote earlier to hire Jon Gruden (I think that would be a huge mistake - two coaches coming from teams that had gone downhill, from their Super bowl years, in their last few years with the team - no thank you!!!!. Gruden is going to cost how much a year? Add that to Shanny's salary that is owed and you get Shanny here at least one more year.

The other reason, he doesn't fire Shanny is he has a very good resume and that often gets one more chances than one who doesn't have a good resume such as Jim Zorn.

You provide a lot of solid evidence to support your argument, but we will have Shanny for at least another year. Our only hope that he will wake up and realize that what he is doing is not working. If not, then look for a repeat of this in year 4.

[Deadskins]

Example the Colts look at them last year versus this year.

Please! The Colts situation has already been discussed. Last year was an aberration because they didn't have Manning. Other than last season, their worst record over the last five seasons was 10-6. This is hardly a rebuilding team. Add to that, they play in the AFC South (12 games against AFC opponents), the emotional lift from playing for a coach sidelined with Leukemia, our injuries to key players on defense, and the Mara cap hit, and the comparison is ludicrous.

That's just not true at all ... the Colts CLEANED HOUSE at the end of last season ... players, coaches, and the front office! They did everything but take the horseshoe off their helmets ... and all the analysts were in agreement about how much better a situation RG3 was going to have with the Redskins, than Luck was going to have with the Colts who were just beginning a full scale rebuild this year.

Wow Ray, I can't believe you're using "the analysts" to back your argument. Those are the same analysts who also say Shanny is a great coach, and that Luck is the more pro-ready QB. And you totally ignored the other three factors I pointed to for the disparity in records between the teams. I tend to agree with a lot of your points, but to fire a coach mid-season is not something The Danny should do again. Our only remaining game where we might not have a real chance of winning is against the Ravens, and with Ray Lewis out, I'm not even sure about that one. You have to let this season play out before making any coaching changes. I've never been a fan of Shanahan's, but I'm willing to stay the course for now.

Look, I understand that you represent the more popular opinion here, and and that makes mine the odd opinion out, and subject to ridicule. That's fine .. I'm used to it ... and I'm also used to being right more often than not, in the final equation. And I'm right this time for sure .. because what is happening now, happened in year 1 and year 2 and has not changed at all for the better.

First, I happen to agree with you about Mike not being a great coach, and living off the success of his Elway Broncos, so don't make it out like I'm taking anyone's side against you. Second, you always make it out as if you are being ridiculed for your opinions, which I don't see at all. Sure Kazoo rails on you, but I've never put much stock in anything he has to say on any number of subjects. I happen to disagree that the Colts are a valid comparison to the Redskins, and that any coach should be fired mid-season. It's just the wrong move as an owner, and something The Danny does not need to do again, especially if he wants to get a good coach in the future for this franchise. I say, let the season play out, and see if we can't win some of these imminently winnable games we have left on our schedule.

[The Hogster]

Maybe I'm cranky, but I'm getting annoyed reading the word 'Shanny' Until he wins with us, he doesn't deserve an abbreviation, nickname or whatever.

He's just Mike

[Deadskins]

So I don't see the reasonableness or the logic in this rather blatant double standard, with people calling for the public execution of Zorn by the end of his first year, year and a half

Please go back and show me a single post on this site by anyone calling for Zorn to be fired.

[Deadskins]

Maybe I'm cranky, but I'm getting annoyed reading the word 'Shanny' Until he wins with us, he doesn't deserve an abbreviation, nickname or whatever.

He's just Mike

I don't think it's a complimentary nickname.

[The Hogster]

Maybe I'm cranky, but I'm getting annoyed reading the word 'Shanny' Until he wins with us, he doesn't deserve an abbreviation, nickname or whatever.

He's just Mike

I don't think it's a complimentary nickname.

Who cares. It sounds lame.

[SkinsJock]

[quote="RayNAustin"]So now let me explain you why I REALLY feel the way I do .... it's a matter of principles, and honesty and integrity and personal responsibility, and standing for something ..... things that used to be considered all important qualities because you are quite frankly NOTHING without these things. /[quote]

UNFORTUNATELY Ray - Of the 'qualities' you deem so important. please give us just 1 - I repeat one (1) that we all would agree Dan Snyder has - JUST ONE

Get out of here

DONE - BOM - roasted

Mike got Snyder to step aside and Mike & Bruce brought in RG3

he gets to be the HC for the rest of this season

don't make a fool of yourself

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

BOM!!!!!!



....Roasted.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

BOM!!!!!!



....Roasted.

[oj]

The subject suggested the lack of success is 'incomplete roster' and that we are still going thru a rebuilding phase.
A problem with that thinking (incomplete roster) is that it is an excuse not an explanation. My presumption is that you can win with ANY combination of draftees - ANY of those guys that get drafted are potential starters in the right situation. It is the coaches responsibility to create the right siituation so that his player can dominate. If the coach fails to create those situations then the team will be mediocre.
It is obvious that some players have greater talents and if you get 52 of the best players on a single team then you don't need a coach do you!
What i see is a disconnect in the coaching, the Shanahans come across as too clinical and cerebral - i have never, ever seen either of them fire up the team. A pat on the helmut saying 'good job' while not even looking the player in the eye is pathetic.
I think the Shanahans are wicked smart but are emotional drains on our team. When was the last time you saw either of them just smile for the hell of it.

[Red_One43]

Many Changes to the Redskins Except Results - LINK

Shanahan has just hit the midpoint of his five-year, $35 million contract. His team is 3-6 this season, 14-27 during his tenure in Washington, and he hasn't taken a team to the playoffs since the 2005 Denver Broncos.

Does imcompleteness of the roster explain this evidence of imcompetence?

Riding a three-game losing streak, the Redskins entered their bye week still in rebuilding mode - even as they've watched other franchises trend from worst to respectable on a speedier timetable.

Hmmm! Is one of these other franchises he is talking about the Colts?

Granted - the Chiefs and the Bucs had good seasons in 2010, but imploded the next year. The current Bucs are looking good.

The above is the only reason why I am not saying Shanny and Haz should be fired, but they do need to make adjustments in their fit the players to the scheme philosophy.

In fairness, Shanahan inherited a mess. The Redskins had become dysfunctional with Vinny Cerrato running the front office, and Jim Zorn looked overwhelmed as a head coach.

Here come the reasons or excuses. I see them as contributors to the problem but not reasons. Look more like excuses to me.

"I didn't think we'd have a whole new football team going into my third year," Shanahan said. "That's a little unusual."

That's on you buddy. You are the personnel guy.

Only 12 players on the current 53-man roster pre-date Shanahan's arrival.

Mostly on Vinny, but you could have found a way to utilize Andre Carter for that 2010. The rest of your cuts have proven to be right on.

"We were an older football team," he said. "We didn't have a lot of draft choices, and when you don't have a lot of players, and you don't have depth through the draft, and you cut all those old players, that means you're starting over again. And that's what we did - we started over again."

Agreed. Definitely a big factor. I give you an A- for what you did with the draft choices. Would have been an A+ if not for the Donovan trade. I only second guess that one because you knew what Donovan was when you traded for him otherwise he looked like a good gamble. You also could have salvaged Donovan if you had tailored the O to him at least for that one season.

Shanahan also notes that each of his three Redskins offseasons has been hindered by unusual circumstances. There was a smaller free-agent pool in 2010 because of the rules in place in the uncapped final year of the collective bargaining agreement.

The 2011 offseason was thrown askew by the lockout, and in 2012 the Redskins learned with little notice before the start of free agency that they were being docked $18 million in salary-cap money this year and next because of overspending during the uncapped year.

Did this only happen to the Skins. This is an excuse. Bengals went to the play-off with a rookie QB after the lockout. BTW - I add the Bengls to the list of teams who have won, but are not doing it the right way. A plus for Shanny's way so far.

"Obviously, that's very strong, when you talk about $36 million," Shanahan said. "And you find out 10 minutes before free agency starts. You plan something for 2-1/2 years and you find out 10 minutes through the newspaper that you just got hit with $36 million."

OK, you have a point here, but from the looks of who you are signing as free agents (Cofield to play NT when the Steelers have showed you that you need a bonafide NT), there is no evidence that you would have done well with a lot of money. See Vinnie and the current Philadelphia Eagles.
But, you do get a pass on this one. Especially since it happened the day before FA.

Still,he wasted a year trying to get Donovan McNabb to fit into his system, then staked his reputation on the duo of Rex Grossman and John Beck. He hit the jackpot this year by getting into position to take Heisman Trophy winner Griffin.

This is all on Shanny! No excuses here. I give Shanny credit for going after McNabb, but when the truth came out that McNabb was no where near the high motor and work ethic guys that Shanny covets - I can only say, "C'mon man! What were you thinking." I get the Grossman thing - it fits his beleif that you can plug in anybody in his system and the system will make the guy look good. It did for the first game of 2011.

Yes, Jackpot with Griffin! Worth the picks! Puts butts in the seats and even tough we are losing. It is clearly a different atmosphere at FedEx.

But Griffin looks like one of the first pieces of the rebuilding puzzle. The Redskins' list of needs runs the gauntlet: cornerback, safety, linebacker, receiver, right tackle.

OK, a mistake was made on Jamal Brown. It seemed like a good trade at the time. The problem is giving him an extention when he could not stay healthy in 2010 and then believing that he was healty in 2010. All on Shanny. He gambled and lost for now. If Compton can excel as a right tackle later this season like Willie Smith last year, then Shanny can salvage this position problem for next year. Speaking of Willie Smith, last I heard he was starting for Da Raiders. Where does he rank compared to Polumbus? Raiders run the same system as we do.

Why not get Jonathan Joseph (FA - Bengals) in 2011? Wade Phillips new that he needed a top corner to turn his near last place D around. The Texans D in 2010 was right there with the Skins in 2010 in the celler. In one year, Wade had them turned around. He also drafted the pieces he needed JJ Watt. His move of Williams to OLB proved to be correct as Williams struggles with the Bills back at DE. Wade is an example of a coach who knows what he is doing. Shanny decides to go bargain hunting with Wilson. Not a bad idea - I think the coaching part is why Wilson has struggled. Who knows, in Haz's system, Joseph might be struggling too.

"I think when you look at the NFL, some instances where you say third year of a program, third year of a head coach, you would like to see the team starting to settle," linebacker London Fletcher said.

Go ahead and say it Fletch. It's the coaches that are messing this one up.

From the day he arrived, Shanahan has been all about control. He has final say over the roster. He demands discipline. He's installed rules and restrictions never before seen at Redskins Park.

Yes, Shanny is part of the problem and he needs to be part of the solution by changing some of his philosophy. Firing him at this juncture is not the answer. Demamding discipline? What discipline? The Skins are the most penalized team in the NFL. More evidence of coaching issues.
Wait a minute? ControL? He needs to take control of the offense and push Kyle to the side. Get that run game in rhythm.

Shanahan says he's seen "tremendous strides" with the team and that he has it going "in the right direction."

It sure looked that way going into this season. Does't look like we are going any direction buy a circular one.

[Red_One43]

The subject suggested the lack of success is 'incomplete roster' and that we are still going thru a rebuilding phase.
A problem with that thinking (incomplete roster) is that it is an excuse not an explanation. My presumption is that you can win with ANY combination of draftees - ANY of those guys that get drafted are potential starters in the right situation. It is the coaches responsibility to create the right siituation so that his player can dominate. If the coach fails to create those situations then the team will be mediocre.
It is obvious that some players have greater talents and if you get 52 of the best players on a single team then you don't need a coach do you!
What i see is a disconnect in the coaching, the Shanahans come across as too clinical and cerebral - i have never, ever seen either of them fire up the team. A pat on the helmut saying 'good job' while not even looking the player in the eye is pathetic.
I think the Shanahans are wicked smart but are emotional drains on our team. When was the last time you saw either of them just smile for the hell of it.

I agree with what you are saying OJ, but I have one question for you which I am having trouble finding the answer.

Why does ey want to play for the Skins so bad?
Why does Fletcher? He could have went some where else for a final hurrah.
Casey Rabach spoke very highly of the Skins and wanted to come back before signing with the Ravens (later failed a physical).

Player after player say that they want to come back.

Carlos Rodgers wanted to come back as well, but wanted too much money.

I agree with you that the players don't seemed fired up. They make too many penalties. They drop too many passes. We read that Shanny fined more players his first year with the Skins than he had with any other team. Yet, several players come to his defense.

I never hear Carter bad mouth the organization.
Carlos said some critical things, but I don't remember him specifically criticizing Shanny (Check me on this)

I have heard subtle comments by Fletcher that I interepreted as shots against the Scheme.

I have heard subtle comments against Kyle and Mike not being on the same sheet of music.

Keim as written that players are often confused on the defense, but they love it here.

Phil Daniels never said anything bad when he was cut. Even defended Mike's fit the personnel to the scheme philosophy (loosly defened it - I might add - he said it has worked for Mike in the past - he wasn't endorsing it).

Vonnie Holliday was mad when he was traded but felt no hard feeling toward Mike.

After he was let go, Dockery in a radio interview refused to say anything negative about Mike even when chided by LaVar. Derrick said that Shanny would take him to the his office and show him what he was doing wrong. Several players say that they appreciate that in Mike.

So what is wrong with this organization, if the players like the direction the team is going?

I think that they believe in Mike so much that they want to fit the schemes both offensively and defensively, but some of them now that they aren't the guy and they won't be around to see the fruition of their labors.

[Kilmer72]

I really believe it is possible that we might not win another game this year. These coaches could be fired. I think it would be a mistake to do it now or at the end of the year. I just can't see anyone coming in here and fixing this mess anytime soon. (Especially since we have no #1 pick or cap room)

Some good has happened. Except for the past two games, we have done much better in the red zone and our running game is a real threat. Our defense has regressed obviously.

What I would do after giving this bunch of coaches another year is, keep Bruce and ask him to hire a real GM. Make Bruce the President and in charge of PR and cap money. Let the new GM hire a head coach. Last but not least - DO NOT LET THE NEW COACH HAVE FINAL SAY. Unless this bunch can redeem themselves.

[RayNAustin]

So now let me explain you why I REALLY feel the way I do .... it's a matter of principles, and honesty and integrity and personal responsibility, and standing for something ..... things that used to be considered all important qualities because you are quite frankly NOTHING without these things. /

UNFORTUNATELY Ray - Of the 'qualities' you deem so important. please give us just 1 - I repeat one (1) that we all would agree Dan Snyder has - JUST ONE

Pure deflection ... this discussion is not about the character of Dan Snyder. And because of that non-interference ... the onus rests solely on Shanahan for the results seen.

As quickly as most are to blame Snyder for a rainy day ... and acknowledge his malfeasance and incompetence in running the organization like a fantasy footballer for many years ... there is not a 3 year stretch of time that has seen worse results than the 3 years of Shanahan so far. So what does that say about Shanahan?