Mann and Green: problem with D is Lack of Development

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Mann and Green: problem with D is Lack of Development

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Darrell Green, Charles Mann: Poor technique to blame for Redskins’ defensive struggles
By Mike Jones, Published: MONDAY, NOVEMBER 05, 12:04 PM ET

As they watch their former team struggle through yet another campaign, Redskins greats Darrell Green and Charles Mann believe that they have pinpointed the root of the problems - particularly on defense.

The unit ranks 31st in the NFL in total defense and 27th in points allowed (27.6). The secondary has struggled mightily, and is on pace to give up 4,826 passing yards, and the front seven has struggled to get to the quarterback and has only 14 sacks through nine games.

Green, who made seven Pro Bowls during his Hall of Fame career, and Mann, who made four Pro Bowls and like Green won two Super Bowls, and played in three, both believe that poor technique is to blame for many of the Redskins' struggles.

While both acknowledge that Washington faces challenge playing without four starters in Brian Orakpo, Adam Carriker, Brandon Meriweather and Tanard Jackson, they believe that defensive coordinator Jim Haslett and his staff should be able to get more out of the players that they have.

"On good football teams, when people have to go down because of injury or whatever the case is, you normally have people that can step up and get their opportunity and make it work. We haven't seen that," Mann said.

Both former players see plenty of talent in the Redskins' defensive ranks. And neither questions the schemes that Haslett has dialed up. But they question whether the players are being taught how to capitalize on their natural ability and elevate their games.

"You're seeing - in my humble opinion - you're seeing a lack of skill development. We're not talking about can they do it? I've said this before on Twitter and television. We're not saying, can they play? But I think there's a lost art of people knowing how to teach you how to do what you're supposed to do," Green said. "When they talk about the great genius coaches, they were talking about from a schematic standpoint. His scheme: the Tampa 2, the Run-and-shoot, Four-wide, the West Coast. They were talking about scheme. They weren't talking about a guy that can teach you how to get into your stance, how to take that inside away and how to really get out of a break, how to back-pedal. I think the league lacks that, and in my opinion, they're lacking that here. I know some of these kids, and I know they can do it. But when I watch, I go, 'Wow, he doesn't even know.' ... That's not to blast anybody. It's easy to say, 'Old retired guy. He's just talking.' But I know what I know, and I know what I'm seeing, and I know Josh Wilson well, and I believe in that kid, and I think that with that kind of understanding, that input, that kid is a great player, I think he can be a great player. And I think many of the other ones as well."

Green said strong technique can help a player better react to wrinkles from an offense because at times, the scheme can only go but so far and that players often must respond to improvise while still playing within the structure of the defense.

"It's like when your mama cooks, and yeah, her mama taught her, but she practices and she tries this and she tries that, and it's between the coach and the player. You make a cake," Green said. "You learn, 'Oooh, last time I tried this and I tried that,' and you find, 'whoa, Grandma could make a cake.' She didn't always do it that way, but through trial and error, through participation, you learn it. That should be a culmination of player and coach."

Mann agreed and said that over the bye, the Redskins' defenders need to focus on sharpening their skills.

"I think that it starts back with fundamentals," said Mann, who recorded 83 sacks in his career. "Every time under Joe Gibbs when we weren't doing what we needed to do, when we weren't getting it done, offensively, defensively, special teams, we went back to basics. I think we need to go back to basics here. We need to go back to training camp, we need to learn how to rush the passer, we need to learn how to play the run better, to have gap responsibility. Those are basic things that this team has learned, should know, and you don't see it on game day. So, when you play a gap defense, if somebody doesn't take their gap, it exposes a whole defense."

The Redskins have struggled to consistently pressure opposing quarterbacks prior to this season, and Mann said he believes Washington's pass-rushers haven't reached the next level in their development because while talented physically, their knowledge is limited.

"If you don't have on your staff a person who knows how to rush the passer, if they can only look at film, but don't have anybody to demonstrate it for you -- I was very fortunate when I played here from 83 to 94, during that course of my career, Tony McGee was here," Mann said. "Tony McGee had 115 career sacks. Dexter Manley was here. He has 99 sacks. So, these guys were guys that knew how to rush the passer, and if I wanted to compete and play on this team, I needed to learn from them and learn how to rush the passer. On this team, you don't have that right now.

"Pass rush is an art. It's an art. And you've got to learn it," Mann continued. "A lot of guys have natural ability. Ryan Kerrigan, Brian Orakpo, they have natural ability, but that will only take you so far. Then, you need somebody to train you."

Neither Green nor Mann believed that all hope is lost for the 2012 Redskins, however.

Asked how long he thought it would take to correct weaknesses in the secondary, Green said, "It can be done in a day. Now, it has to be perfected over time, but to say, 'Let me diagnose this.' It's like a doctor. He diagnoses it in a day. He can tell you your arm is out of place in a moment. It can be done in a short period of time. And I think it will. I'm not giving up on them."

Said Mann: "It's not too late now. In practice you need to learn. Again, do they have the coaches - and I'm not dogging or talking bad about anybody - but you have to have a coach, who can rush the passer, that can demonstrate it. Or, maybe you put together a tape of great pass rushers, and they study that and they watch it, practice it and try it. It's trial and error until you figure it out. Put a tape on of Dwight Freeney or Michael Strahan. Doesn't have to be Dexter or myself. Put a tape on and let these guys look at this and say, 'OK, this is how they did it.' And then demonstrate it, because that's not happening."


http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/11/05/darrell-green-charles-mann-poor-technique-to-blame-for-redskins-defensive-struggles/
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Post by cowboykillerzRGiii »

It doewnt take a rocket.scientist to say.... "hey let's bring these guys (not just redskins legends, but NFL greats) in see if they can help. Can't get worse that's for sure"

A move.like this would be nice to see
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Post by cvillehog »

No salary cap for coaches/consultants. I say bring them in!

Hey Mike, if you need Green's phone number, I have it and would be happy to share it!
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Post by TimSkin »

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:It doewnt take a rocket.scientist to say.... "hey let's bring these guys (not just redskins legends, but NFL greats) in see if they can help. Can't get worse that's for sure"

A move.like this would be nice to see


You and I both know Shanny is too stubborn to do that.....it would be nice tho
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Post by Redskin in Canada »

“On good football teams, when people have to go down because of injury or whatever the case is, you normally have people that can step up and get their opportunity and make it work. We haven’t seen that,” Mann said.


We are NOT a good football team, Charles. We are NOT.

I agree with previous posters. This crowd is too stubborn and proud to admit these facts and invite former players and experts to help. :roll:
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

Redskin in Canada wrote:
“On good football teams, when people have to go down because of injury or whatever the case is, you normally have people that can step up and get their opportunity and make it work. We haven’t seen that,” Mann said.


We are NOT a good football team, Charles. We are NOT.

I agree with previous posters. This crowd is too stubborn and proud to admit these facts and invite former players and experts to help. :roll:


Sometimes, you have to take your self-development into your own hands. We should all know this from our personal careers. It's no excuse for the people in charge, but if you know you're lacking, you should do something about it. If I'd still be doing help-desk stuff if I didn't take my career into my own hands.
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Post by langleyparkjoe »

Why we need the greatest of former players to come in for?

These guys are supposed to be professionals.
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

langleyparkjoe wrote:Why we need the greatest of former players to come in for?

These guys are supposed to be professionals.


What does that even mean? You never stop learning... I'm a "professional" in my field and could never afford to stop learning.
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Post by langleyparkjoe »

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Why we need the greatest of former players to come in for?

These guys are supposed to be professionals.


What does that even mean? You never stop learning... I'm a "professional" in my field and could never afford to stop learning.


Aren't coaches there for that? Aren't they supposed to be the "professionals" that are teaching them?
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

langleyparkjoe wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Why we need the greatest of former players to come in for?

These guys are supposed to be professionals.


What does that even mean? You never stop learning... I'm a "professional" in my field and could never afford to stop learning.


Aren't coaches there for that? Aren't they supposed to be the "professionals" that are teaching them?


I think you may need to reread the article, or listen to the audio. The point is that coaches can teach schemes, but they may or may not be able to teach the nuances of the position. Things like hand placement...

This different perspective is an interesting one. Our previous great players said that they learned how to be what they became because of what they learned from their predecessors. Who did Orakpo have here to learn from? Nobody. He was automatically the best pass rusher we had. And he has shown that he's open to learning in the off-season.

However, maybe the Giants have so much success because they have great rushers teaching the young draftees... Maybe JPP would have been average here, but learning from Tuck, who learned from Strahan gives had an advantage.

It's just a fresh perspective and a good one at that.
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Post by fetus »

langleyparkjoe wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Why we need the greatest of former players to come in for?

These guys are supposed to be professionals.


What does that even mean? You never stop learning... I'm a "professional" in my field and could never afford to stop learning.


Aren't coaches there for that? Aren't they supposed to be the "professionals" that are teaching them?


Do you really think that Raheem Morris could go out there and teach our DB's how to cover????
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

fetus wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Why we need the greatest of former players to come in for?

These guys are supposed to be professionals.


What does that even mean? You never stop learning... I'm a "professional" in my field and could never afford to stop learning.


Aren't coaches there for that? Aren't they supposed to be the "professionals" that are teaching them?


Do you really think that Raheem Morris could go out there and teach our DB's how to cover????


If he can't help the players to improve why is he here? Is he going to make them all-pros? Of course not, but there's no reason why their technique can't get better.
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Post by langleyparkjoe »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
fetus wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Why we need the greatest of former players to come in for?

These guys are supposed to be professionals.


What does that even mean? You never stop learning... I'm a "professional" in my field and could never afford to stop learning.


Aren't coaches there for that? Aren't they supposed to be the "professionals" that are teaching them?


Do you really think that Raheem Morris could go out there and teach our DB's how to cover????


If he can't help the players to improve why is he here? Is he going to make them all-pros? Of course not, but there's no reason why their technique can't get better.


Well, I expect my boss to be able to show me what to do at my job so I guess the answer is yes. :lol:
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Post by langleyparkjoe »

Chris Luva Luva wrote:It's just a fresh perspective and a good one at that.


Understand what you were saying, just throwing something else out there. lol
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Post by DaSkinz Baby »

No way they bring anyone in. Think about it if Shanahan does this it would be too much like when Zorn had the Bingo player brought in............
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Post by die cowboys die »

I am an experienced/advanced and skilled guitar player, though I lack the natural ability to move my fingers as quickly as some "shredders" out there. But in years of both receiving and teaching lessons, my understanding is that sound technique is sound technique regardless of the speed, and I am perfectly capable of teaching it even if I can't "shred" a billion notes per second myself.

Morris may not have the athletic ability to actually play DB in the NFL, but as a secondary coach he sure ought to be able to execute and demonstrate the *technique* involved, even if he is simply slower and/or weaker.
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Post by rskin72 »

die cowboys die wrote:I am an experienced/advanced and skilled guitar player, though I lack the natural ability to move my fingers as quickly as some "shredders" out there. But in years of both receiving and teaching lessons, my understanding is that sound technique is sound technique regardless of the speed, and I am perfectly capable of teaching it even if I can't "shred" a billion notes per second myself.

Morris may not have the athletic ability to actually play DB in the NFL, but as a secondary coach he sure ought to be able to execute and demonstrate the *technique* involved, even if he is simply slower and/or weaker.


Certainly agree with this. To be a successful coach does not require you to have been a star player....indeed most of the time those two seem to be mutually exclusive. When I was an instructor in the Navy, the old slogan was "those that can't do, teach"....but it really has to do with the skill set that you bring to the table. I mean, what type of NFL career as a player did Joe Gibbs have?

The OP quotes from our former greats bring more focus to the coaching spotlight.....especially on defense. And, my concerns revolve more around how Haz implements our 3-4 defense and how he prepares our players. When you get burned on the first play of the game by a team's O coord who studied tape and knew your tendencies.....like the Bengals did.....that should raise warning flags about the predictability of our defense.

Bring on some of our former greats to teach coverage, teach pass rush.....that part certainly could not hurt....but seems like this is something that should have been considered in pre-season vice midway point in regular season.....
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

DaSkinz Baby wrote:No way they bring anyone in. Think about it if Shanahan does this it would be too much like when Zorn had the Bingo player brought in............


No, it wouldn't. Clearly you aren't comprehending what's being proposed.
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Post by SkinsJock »

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
DaSkinz Baby wrote:No way they bring anyone in. Think about it if Shanahan does this it would be too much like when Zorn had the Bingo player brought in............


No, it wouldn't. Clearly you aren't comprehending what's being proposed.


:shock: thanks for pointing out the obvious CLL :lol:


hopefully someone uses these few days to analyze what Green and Mann are pointing to - there are some serious mistakes happening and IMO many of them are basically due to poor technique
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Post by Redskin in Canada »

Ohhhh!

The ability and willingness to try to look inside critically at one's self and determine whether I reach alone, around, outside, or all of the above to seek the assistance I need to become a better professional and person ...

... pretty profound.

Ego gets in the way, Chris. Many egos get in the way of that vision. Our own, the ego of the ones around us, lack of humility, or just plain immaturity regardless of age.
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Post by SkinsJock »

^^ what he said :shock:

we do have many issues and it's not all due to guys named Jim, Kyle or Mike


HCs tend to be very difficult and very inflexible - that's their nature
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by DarthMonk »

I feel good about seeing this on the field and in my brain before reading it. Enough of that.

I don't know if this is true but I'm gonna say the last head coach we had who was really into this concept personally was Marty. I think Gibbs was a schemer but had assistants who did this. I think Joe Bugel was big on this as a line coach.

The players, as a group, are more athletic than ever but less skilled. Lombardi is rolling over in his grave. Welch, maybe the old Packers WOULD kick our ass in spite of being out athleted almost everywhere. I know their secondary would cover us better than we'd cover them.

BTW - does Morris remind anyone else of Larry Brown?

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Post by Redskin in Canada »

DarthMonk wrote:BTW - does Morris remind anyone else of Larry Brown?

I thought about it BUT ...

... their runs are very different. Morris' one cut and run is Shanny's style. Allen's run scheme was different.

However, there are several points of analogy too. The tenacity and commitment are comparable. They also come from two unlikely backgrounds. Their physical commitment to the run is similar too.

It is too early to tell, I feel. Larry was a warrior and had a much better and experienced, run-first, over-the-hill OL. But at this time is too early to tell because I saw runs made by Larry that I have not seen Morris do. It is only his first season. Interesting to watch though. Good observation. :idea:
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Post by SkinsJock »

I think that Mann & Green's comment are well intended but I agree with RiC - there is no way today's coaches take advice or constructive criticism very well - also today's coaches it seems to me are more about defensive and offensive schemes than 'coaching techniques'

at this level these guys all expect the players to have all the basics down - that is why we see so many players not doing the basics like tackling and preparing like the players of the last era did


whatever it is these 2 (Kyle & Jim Haslett) need to be a lot more hands on with their players and design and practice according to what the players can do NOT what they (Jim & Kyle) want them to do - admittedly this also needs to be adjusted to fit into what the offense or defense we are facing does as well
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by chiefhog44 »

Although I absolutely agree with these guys, the simple fact is that the NFL is no longer a teaching ground. With the limits they place on things like padded practices, OTA days, offseason practices etc, these coaches don't have a whole lot of time to teach fundamentals. In addition, there are limits to how many players are on rosters no adays, meaning you can't let a guy learn by watching or practicing for 3 years without being exposed. On top of that, the game has advanced so much in the last 20 years that colleges serve as those places to learn fundamentals. Coaches expect you to know how to tackle, they expect you to know how to rush or cover.

Now I'm not saying that no teaching goes down while on the team, but its on the fly and they aren't able to practice those skills with the reps like they were back in the day. The burden of learning falls much more in the lap of the player now more than ever. Take Orakpo. He spent the offseason with Derek Brooks from the Chiefs to learn how to cover as a LB, and learn how to split double teams. HE has to do that in the offseason and the team is not allowed to provide coaching to help him. Those are the rules.
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