What is the most important cause for the DEFENSE collapse?

[1niksder]

It falls on Shanahan and Haslett. Shanahan decided to hire Haslett, switch to the 3-4, and he's in charge of personnel moves. It's basically becoming a repeat of what got him fired in Denver, an unbalanced team with a good offense and a terrible defense. Haslett's in charge of the game plan and getting these guys to understand/execute the defense. Obviously we have some issues with depth and talent, but we should not be this bad.

You just don't like either of those guys based on most of your replies to most of the questions you reply to Last year it was the defense carrying the team and you said Shanny had no offense without Elway now he has a "good" so you point out he has good offense, and you never liked the switch to the 3-4.

FTR: He decided on the 3-4 BEFORE he signed Haz...

I went with injuries and suspensions... Jackson would have been the perfect "center fielder" and Merriweather will fit in the box nicely. Jackson was suspended BEFORE the season and Merriweather has been out since the PRE-SEASON.

The replacements for the guys "slotted" to start the season aren't getting the job done, but these are the same guys that played last season when both "slotted starters missed most of the season) <--- see a pattern

This points to Haslett's inability to adjust either his (Mike's) scheme or his personnel. The FO signed both Jackson and Merriweather along with other free agent DBs this off-season... so the cap really can't be the main cause, because they spent a lot of money on DBs (almost $20M in total dollars). Might have hurt when it comes to depth

Shanny and Haz aren't the biggest reasons the D sucks but they are running a very close second and at the mid-way point of the season they are still trying to deal with issues that they became aware of prior to the start of the season. The trade deadline is this week and they have a bye next week. At that point injuries and suspensions would be a excuse and no longer a cause

[brad7686]

40% Haslett
30% safety injuries/suspensions
15% average/bad corners
15% Rak Injury

[1niksder]

40% Haslett
30% safety injuries/suspensions
15% average/bad corners
15% Rak Injury

Move 5% of Rak's Injury to Haz and I can agree with this.

[Redskin in Canada]

If you vote for injuries and suspensions, you might as well vote for lack of draft and free agency help by the FO. It's one and the same really. A good FO would prepare for injuries since they are inevitable and work hard to create depth. Depth is extremely important in consistency and going deep in the playoffs.

If 2 major injuries are the direct reason we are now the clear-cut worst defense in the NFL --- the FO should have realized that may be an issue and prepared accordingly.

I sort of think that poor execution by an inept bunch also is directly related to the FO. Right now, we have a poor product on the field. Everyone knew that our 2ndary was weak. The FO should have worked to sign and draft players that could have helped this year. But they didn't.

I was surprised to see that the FO had received a clean bill of health so far in this thread. I AGREE with you. They deserve some responsibility too.

[markshark84]

If 2 major injuries are the direct reason we are now the clear-cut worst defense in the NFL --- the FO should have realized that may be an issue and prepared accordingly.

What math are you using to come to a conclusion of 2 injuries?

- Carriker
- Orakpo
- Merriweather
- Tanard (brain deficiency lol)
- Goff
- Jenkins (it takes 2 years to truly bounce back from his injury)

That's 5 "real" injuries. But more importantly, that's 4 starters on defense GONE. BOTH safeties GONE. Arguably our best pass rusher, GONE. A cornerstone of our D-line GONE.

That's huge.

It's not math more than english..... "Real" and "major" are different. "Major" injuries go to "major" players. There are only 2 "major" players on your list -- and that is giving Carriker a ton of credit. Of those 6, 2 are high level players; 1 a mediocre player; 2 are injury riddled, and one is actively playing. And I consider starters as players that have actually started a game as a skin.

I considered Carriker and Orakpo as the major injuries. The others were such that they should have been planned for by the FO.

Jenkins is playing. He got hurt last year. They should have adequately planned that this is a "recovery" year. It's no secret it takes 2 years for an ACL to fully recover.

Jackson failed his physical in TB, hasn't played a full season since 2008 and has a substance abuse issue. Would you really think we'd get a full season out of him??? I would have planned an option B. An injury or suspension should have been predictable (and really inevitable). To say that this was a surprise is just ridiculous.

Goff tore his ACL the PREVIOUS season. Besides the skins released him. As you stated, it takes 2 years to recover. He wan't a core player and shouldn't have been a starter because this is a "recovery year" and more importantly, he was a mediocre starter in NYG; which is probably why they didnt' resign him. When you have an injury prone middle LB coming off a season ending ACL tear, the FO should have had a plan B. His injury was predicatable.

An argument can be made for Merriweather, but it was early enough were the FO should have made more of an effort to pick up a DB. He was injured on Sept 3, so I can understand it --- that said, we need MULTIPLE upgrades in the 2ndary.

If I give you Merriweather, that is 3 injuries. That is not uncommon in the NFL. The FO needs to prepare for injuries. If this were 3 injuries at the same position, it is understandable -- but this is 3 injuries at very different positions. The FO should have prepared.

[oneman56]

40% Haslett
30% safety injuries/suspensions
15% average/bad corners
15% Rak Injury

Move 5% of Rak's Injury to Haz and I can agree with this.

I actually think his injury is being understated and should be increased and not decreased, he is the primary reason our pass rush has faltered so much and that puts too much strain on this inept secondary IMO. As far as the FO goes, most teams losing their top pass rusher and secondary starters have trouble so I agree with the injury votes. As an example of FO's, Baltimore, who is known for having a top personnel guy and good FO are struggling w/o Suggs and now their top corner. The Giants have survived their bad secondary for a years cause of their pass rushers, they have 3 to 4 good ones, we have 1 maybe 2 and now don't have a legit rusher. I Love Kerrigan but until he proves he can be a double digit sack guy w/o Orakpo on the other side i think he's a complimentary pass rush guy. He's an oustanding LB and football player, i'm not knocking him at all but he's not proved he can terrorize QB's without Orakpo on the other side.

[oneman56]

If 2 major injuries are the direct reason we are now the clear-cut worst defense in the NFL --- the FO should have realized that may be an issue and prepared accordingly.

What math are you using to come to a conclusion of 2 injuries?

- Carriker
- Orakpo
- Merriweather
- Tanard (brain deficiency lol)
- Goff
- Jenkins (it takes 2 years to truly bounce back from his injury)

That's 5 "real" injuries. But more importantly, that's 4 starters on defense GONE. BOTH safeties GONE. Arguably our best pass rusher, GONE. A cornerstone of our D-line GONE.

That's huge.

It's not math more than english..... "Real" and "major" are different. "Major" injuries go to "major" players. There are only 2 "major" players on your list -- and that is giving Carriker a ton of credit. Of those 6, 2 are high level players; 1 a mediocre player; 2 are injury riddled, and one is actively playing. And I consider starters as players that have actually started a game as a skin.

I considered Carriker and Orakpo as the major injuries. The others were such that they should have been planned for by the FO.

Jenkins is playing. He got hurt last year. They should have adequately planned that this is a "recovery" year. It's no secret it takes 2 years for an ACL to fully recover.

Jackson failed his physical in TB, hasn't played a full season since 2008 and has a substance abuse issue. Would you really think we'd get a full season out of him??? I would have planned an option B. An injury or suspension should have been predictable (and really inevitable). To say that this was a surprise is just ridiculous.

Goff tore his ACL the PREVIOUS season. Besides the skins released him. As you stated, it takes 2 years to recover. He wan't a core player and shouldn't have been a starter because this is a "recovery year" and more importantly, he was a mediocre starter in NYG; which is probably why they didnt' resign him. When you have an injury prone middle LB coming off a season ending ACL tear, the FO should have had a plan B. His injury was predicatable.

An argument can be made for Merriweather, but it was early enough were the FO should have made more of an effort to pick up a DB. He was injured on Sept 3, so I can understand it --- that said, we need MULTIPLE upgrades in the 2ndary.

If I give you Merriweather, that is 3 injuries. That is not uncommon in the NFL. The FO needs to prepare for injuries. If this were 3 injuries at the same position, it is understandable -- but this is 3 injuries at very different positions. The FO should have prepared.

Show me a FO that loses it's best pass rusher, best run stuffer and most talented DB and doesn't fall off defensively? I'm not saying they couldn't have prepared better (there's always room to be better) and i'm not saying we should be last against the pass but these are significant injuries. Again, see Baltimore. See Pitt w/o Harrison, Polamalu and let's say Kiesel. These are tough injuries to overcome. Haslett has to share some blame however we were already thin defensively and couldn't afford these injuries. We focused the off-season and draft to the offensive side which was needed and need to do the same this year to the secondary and we need to find another pass rusher to compliment Rak and Kerrigan.

[cvillehog]

40% Haslett
30% safety injuries/suspensions
15% average/bad corners
15% Rak Injury

So... 45% suspensions and injuries?

[Deadskins]

It's no secret it takes 2 years for an ACL to fully recover.

Tell that to Adrian Peterson. What takes two years, for most players, is trusting your knee again. It's more of a mental thing, than a physical thing.

[SKINS#1]

"Poor execution by an inept and incompetent bunch" Enough said.

Reason for ineptness/incompetence may be injury, game planning, etc. but with the DBs we have on the field, it is an embarrassing situation for the rest of the team.

[Richmond Redskin]

Not a fan of the 3/4., too hard to get quality players.We are more than one player away The injuries have not helped, but our secondary needs a total overhaul.

[Richmond Redskin]

Not a fan of the 3/4., too hard to get quality players.We are more than one player away The injuries have not helped, but our secondary needs a total overhaul.

[Red_One43]

It falls on Shanahan and Haslett. Shanahan decided to hire Haslett, switch to the 3-4, and he's in charge of personnel moves. It's basically becoming a repeat of what got him fired in Denver, an unbalanced team with a good offense and a terrible defense. Haslett's in charge of the game plan and getting these guys to understand/execute the defense. Obviously we have some issues with depth and talent, but we should not be this bad.

Mike Lombardi said on one of the NFL Network shows Sunday, that Shanny is really a defense-minded coach, and likes to hand off the offense to his OC and focuses himself on the D. He also pointed out Shanny's horrible D in Denver is what got him fired, and that he's as responsible as Haslett is for this year's performance.

I can definitely buy into this. Shanny says to be an great offensive coach you have to know defenses as good or better than offenses. In Denver, he fired his DCs but always had the same results.

I agree wholeheartedly that we should not be this bad. How are the Colts in the first year of a 4-3 doing so much better (19th vs our 29th) - is their talent better than ours? Aren't they supposed to be bad the first year of a transition to the 3-4? There is more to the Skins poor defensive showing that personnel.

[Red_One43]

Fred Smoot Rips Haz

“Jim is, I think, an average coordinator right now,” Smoot said according to D.C. Sports Bog. “He might not have the players he wants. But I also think he’s so pig-headed right now, he’s gonna continue to run his style of defense, even though it’s killing the team.

Haslett has blamed players in the past for not fitting in with Washington’s defensive scheme, but there is obviously a bigger issue this season. The Redskins are making plays on offense, but they aren’t stopping anyone. That won’t win you many games in the NFL.

I have been saying this all along. Fit the players to the scheme. Haz keeps trying different players in different positions but the scheme is the same. A little less bltizing but the scheme is the same. How about scheme to the players for a change? No, not the Shanny way except when it comes to RGIII.

[aswas71788]

You can add stupidly letting Carlos Rogers go. I know he didn't want to be here, but he was the only competent member of our secondary at that time.....and now we get to see what having ZERO competent secondary people looks like.

We "let" Carlos Rogers go like Tom Cruise "let" Katie Holmes go. He WASN'T STAYING HERE.

There's always the franchise tag. Not that that would have helped his morale any.

One tnhing that is consistant is that the player(s) that are not on the team anymore are the best ones and the back-up quarterback should be playing instead of the starter. Doesn't any one remember the problems with Rogers? First and formost, he did not want to stay. Second was his injury problem. He was always hurt and could not play. Third, he was not that good of a cover corner. I do have to admit that he was better tahn what we now have. He would not have changed the poor play we are getting from our defensive backs, particuarly Hall.

[tribeofjudah]

RIC.... how about ALL OF THE ABOVE..???

[Richmond Redskin]

For the 3/4 to work you need to get some pressure on the QB, which we don't. When the QB has time to go through his progressions, our secondary gets picked apart. The secondary is just not good enough to have to cover that long. Hall is the best we got and he is one of the lowest rated DB in the league. Add in some key injuries and the struggles are not a surprise.

[SkinsJock]

so ... let me get this straight - "for the 3-4 defense to work .... " you have to have certain things 'work' ..

can I then take it that the 4-3 defense will be successful even if the things that it needs to 'work' don't 'work'


no wonder so many of you want to go back to the 4-3 - you learn something new about this game everyday

[Bishop Hammer]

Almost everything listed. It takes more than one factor to make a defense this bad. Its a multitude of things.

[Deadskins]

You can add stupidly letting Carlos Rogers go. I know he didn't want to be here, but he was the only competent member of our secondary at that time.....and now we get to see what having ZERO competent secondary people looks like.

We "let" Carlos Rogers go like Tom Cruise "let" Katie Holmes go. He WASN'T STAYING HERE.

There's always the franchise tag. Not that that would have helped his morale any.

One tnhing that is consistant is that the player(s) that are not on the team anymore are the best ones and the back-up quarterback should be playing instead of the starter. Doesn't any one remember the problems with Rogers? First and formost, he did not want to stay. Second was his injury problem. He was always hurt and could not play. Third, he was not that good of a cover corner. I do have to admit that he was better tahn what we now have. He would not have changed the poor play we are getting from our defensive backs, particuarly Hall.

I take it that first sentence is a comment on the fans, and not what you feel is the case, but I can't be sure from the rest of your post. Injuries? Maybe you're thinking of Sean Springs, because I don't remember Carlos missing many, if any, games due to injury. And he was definitely an excellent cover corner. Fans hated him because he dropped so many easy INTs, but if he had not been good in coverage, he would have not been in position to have so many drops.

[Richmond Redskin]

so ... let me get this straight - "for the 3-4 defense to work .... " you have to have certain things 'work' ..

can I then take it that the 4-3 defense will be successful even if the things that it needs to 'work' don't 'work'


no wonder so many of you want to go back to the 4-3 - you learn something new about this game everyday

Maybe, with our 4-3 we had MANY more sacks and QB pressure. Granted a diffrent group of players. If you look at many of the successful teams around the NFL, they do run a 3-4, but built the defense around that.

We need depth and talent. RAK and Carriker injuries were a killer. Morris may be running the defesne by the end of the year. I think Haslett is losing the players confidence that he has a plan to do anyting on defesne. Our cao hit and lack of stockpiled picks will make it difficult to plug a lot of areas that for this defense regardless of what defense we run.

Hopefully it gets better before the end of the year and we have something to build on for 2013.

[Redskin in Canada]

RIC.... how about ALL OF THE ABOVE..???

Hey brother, remember the first post:

A combination of several factors may be responsible. I include in the Poll ALL of the reasons in my mind behind this collapse. So, my answer would be a combination of all. But I am interested to hear you all to highlight WHICH is the MOST important. What is your view?

I feel ALL of those items contribute. I just wanted to determine their different value as contributing factors among the fans.

[KazooSkinsFan]

All I know is that there's a point when we can't stop anybody ever that questions have to start being asked. I'd have voted injuries, but we couldn't stop anybody before Rak and Carriker went out. I voted cap because I think that's the biggest in terms of what I expected. Without the cap loss I'd have thought we'd have shored up the secondary and been better. We're so bad though, I'm not sure that "covers" it since we can't cover anyone else... But I don't have a better answer that explains why we got way better last year only to get way worse again this year.

My hesitation in voting Haslett was we sucked two years ago, but we improved so much last year. I don't understand why we are so bad again.

[Richmond Redskin]

All I know is that there's a point when we can't stop anybody ever that questions have to start being asked. I'd have voted injuries, but we couldn't stop anybody before Rak and Carriker went out. I voted cap because I think that's the biggest in terms of what I expected. Without the cap loss I'd have thought we'd have shored up the secondary and been better. We're so bad though, I'm not sure that "covers" it since we can't cover anyone else... But I don't have a better answer that explains why we got way better last year only to get way worse again this year.

My hesitation in voting Haslett was we sucked two years ago, but we improved so much last year. I don't understand why we are so bad again.

It is frustrating. I think that it is a combination of all of them. We give a guy like Tanard Jackson a chance and he gets suspended for drugs...again. That one still makes me mad.

Then Merryweather goes down in a freak accident. RAK and Carriker hurt and we have people in our secondary starting that could not make 90% of other NFL teams.

You look around the league at who we have dropped.....Rogers, Clarke, Laundry..all seem to be excelling with the new teams. At some point if goes back to coaching, schemes and talent evaluation. For some reason these guys could not make it here, but can elsewhere. Is it a scheme, is it the training staff, is it lack of surrounding talent?

Toss in the cap hit that limits our ability to go and get a few players and it is pretty easy to see how we got here. The bigger concern is I am not seeing a lot changing next year outside of RAk and Carriker. Both are coming back from pretty serious injuries.

We have the same core group, still have the cap hit and at this point still have the same coaches and talent evaluators.

I wish there was a silver bullet here, but I think this problem is a big one and will take time, money and talent...all of which we are short on right now.


.

[SkinsJock]

It's not the system - there are pros and cons for all defensive 'systems'

It's not the coaching - these guys have had success as well as bad times - I remember when there were many that thought Wade Phillips was the reason that the pukes defense sucked .. same guy is now hailed as a genius at Houston - Bellichick was horrible at Cleveland ...

It's not the players - these guys would not be playing in the NFL if they did not have skills


this defense sucks because of a combination of many factors but primarily, we were 'hurt' by not being able to add depth - I'm convinced that most good teams are better because they have quality depth - we could not add some players that might not have been great talent but they could have provided depth

in looking back - adding FAT Al Haynesworth to this franchise was a HUGE mistake


we do not have a good defense but I predict we're still 8-8 (maybe 9-7)

what really sucks is that if the defense were playing better we might have done better than most knowledgeable fans and the media expected


this franchise is still getting into the groove and recovering from the mess


I will say that no matter what the record ends up - I hope Bruce and Milke take a hard look at Danny, Kyle and Jim for next season

although with this owner he could look at RG3 and think he wants someone else as his HC