What is the most important cause for the DEFENSE collapse?

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:32 pm

We have the WORST defense I can recall in my history as a Skins fan since 1969. Skins are on their way to have the WORST pass defense in the history of the NFL with +5,000 yards allowed.

Something or someone has to be MOST responsible for this catastrophe. A combination of several factors may be responsible. I include in the Poll ALL of the reasons in my mind behind this collapse. So, my answer would be a combination of all. But I am interested to hear you all to highlight WHICH is the MOST important. What is your view?

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:50 pm

to me the 2 choices are almost the same

It's not all Haslett but he's in charge

the injuries are a bit of a factor but we should not be this bad

the front 7 are OK but could use some depth - then again, who couldn't

the secondary is inept but they 'look' even worse because IMO Haslett has not devised a way to get even a little pressure from his front 7

any pressure or threat of pressure helps even a bad secondary - offensive play callers on opposing teams are telling the QB that they will have a lot of time - "the Redskins front 7 will not be able to pressure you ..."

Mississippiskinsfan2 · Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:06 pm

Robert Griffin III

The skins are puting up more points so teams are going to the air to keep up or to stay ahead of the skins. The D is just as bad as it has been and really needs around 5 real starters ovrall to be good

Kilmer72 · Post by **Kilmer72** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:15 pm

Out of that list I have to go with Injuries and suspensions.

DarthMonk · Post by **DarthMonk** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:26 pm

I haven't voted yet but I agree with ch1 and the whole notion that going 3-4 was a mistake. It set us back a number of years and most of the league was already there meaning there was more 4-3 talent available as all the 3-4 guys were being used/drafted. The Pats are an example of a team that goes against trends this way.

I'd love to be playing 4-3 with guys like Cofield as part of a tackle/end rotation instead of nose, etc.

Now that we are where we are I think the combo of cap penalty and Haz has us in a bad way. Crazily we have had some good efforts. The really terrible crime is to get beaten deep as often as we do. To me that is coaching. "Keep it in front of you" has to be a "my way or the highway" mantra.

? Can we shore this up in a year and can we do it with Haz?

DarthMonk

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:18 pm

I think the cap penalty was a big deal, as it hurt our depth. If we hadn't had the injuries and suspensions we've had though, especially losing Rak and Carriker from the front 7, I think we'd have been OK (that is, just barely competent).

oneman56 · Post by **oneman56** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:24 pm

Lack of a pass rush (so Rak's injury), last year with a similar secondary our defense racked up 40 + plus sacks to aid them. This year, there's no pass rush and the secondary is getting torched.

Bob 0119 · Post by **Bob 0119** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:55 pm

We knew going in that defensive backs were a problem.

Same with O-Line and WR.

My money is on the cap penalty. I think it really restricted some of our moves.

The injuries sure as hell aren't helping.

I also have to agree with the sentiment that RGIII is a contributing factor. Running up the score on Rex Grossman was unnecessary; but with Griffin, you gotta bury him as deep as you can as early as you can. Most of our opponents have been playing from behind, so they have to air it out against the weakest part of our defense.

Kilmer72 · Post by **Kilmer72** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:06 pm

Bob 0119 wrote:We knew going in that defensive backs were a problem.

Same with O-Line and WR.

My money is on the cap penalty. I think it really restricted some of our moves.

The injuries sure as hell aren't helping.

I also have to agree with the sentiment that RGIII is a contributing factor. Running up the score on Rex Grossman was unnecessary; but with Griffin, you gotta bury him as deep as you can as early as you can. Most of our opponents have been playing from behind, so they have to air it out against the weakest part of our defense.

This is true but also, playing the Skins defense which is similar but not as good, also played in the hands of Pittsburgh.

Kilmer72 · Post by **Kilmer72** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:07 pm

Oops duplicate

PAPDOG67 · Post by **PAPDOG67** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:38 pm

You can add stupidly letting Carlos Rogers go. I know he didn't want to be here, but he was the only competent member of our secondary at that time.....and now we get to see what having ZERO competent secondary people looks like.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:48 pm

John Keim on Simplifying the Defense like the Steelers

Talked to a very knowledgeable NFL guy after the game and his point summed up some differences between the teams. The Redskins and Steelers run the same defense, right? Well, this person said that’s true only to a point. The Steelers are much more basic on early downs and it shows in their execution. While they will change things up and they will blitz a lot, most of their so-called exotic looks come on third down. They rarely learn anything new. It’s a major key to why they execute so well. That, and having a top nose tackle in Casey Hampton – who had major penetration early in the game to cause a loss. This person didn’t think either secondary was anything special and actually thought the Redskins front three was better. But they have Hampton. The Steelers also have a big front and did a good job diagnosing plays and causing problems. The Redskins hit them a couple times but could not stick with the run because of the score. I did like how physical the Steelers played them; probably more than any other D this year. I will say, Alfred Morris matched their physical style. I have a feeling he likes that sort of game.

I voted for poor implementation of the 3-4 and poor scheme planning by Haz.

The primary reason for the poor implementation is pointed out in the above quote by John Keim. Too complicated!

Also, there is a personnel issue other than the secondary. The coaches seemed content with making Cofield a NT - As Keim points out, you need a true NT to be a dominant 3-4.

What I am not saying is it has been all bad with Haz. There are some games that he has confused the stuffing out of other teams, but in other games, I feel he has confused his own players. Thus the inconsistentcy in the performance of the D.

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:00 pm

My vote went to:

Poor execution by an inept and incompetent bunch

But I am surprised nobody blames the FO for not grabbing somebody to help in the secondary.

In hindsight ... would I have wanted a good safety or CB instead of Kirk Cousins? In light of the current desperate situation, YES.

It is possible that there were no great safeties or CBs at 4th pick. I do not remember but my goodness ... we are terrible at those positions. Terrible.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:10 am

It falls on Shanahan and Haslett. Shanahan decided to hire Haslett, switch to the 3-4, and he's in charge of personnel moves. It's basically becoming a repeat of what got him fired in Denver, an unbalanced team with a good offense and a terrible defense. Haslett's in charge of the game plan and getting these guys to understand/execute the defense. Obviously we have some issues with depth and talent, but we should not be this bad.

crazyhorse1 · Post by **crazyhorse1** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:14 am

cvillehog wrote:I think the cap penalty was a big deal, as it hurt our depth. If we hadn't had the injuries and suspensions we've had though, especially losing Rak and Carriker from the front 7, I think we'd have been OK (that is, just barely competent).

I don't think those two would make much difference. Our D is too poor to improve much even with the addition of two good players in the front seven.
Two good players in the secondary might help.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:29 am

crazyhorse1 wrote:
cvillehog wrote:I think the cap penalty was a big deal, as it hurt our depth. If we hadn't had the injuries and suspensions we've had though, especially losing Rak and Carriker from the front 7, I think we'd have been OK (that is, just barely competent).

I don't think those two would make much difference. Our D is too poor to improve much even with the addition of two good players in the front seven.
Two good players in the secondary might help.

A strong front seven can make up for a lot of secondary sins!

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:27 am

CanesSkins26 wrote:It falls on Shanahan and Haslett. Shanahan decided to hire Haslett, switch to the 3-4, and he's in charge of personnel moves. It's basically becoming a repeat of what got him fired in Denver, an unbalanced team with a good offense and a terrible defense. Haslett's in charge of the game plan and getting these guys to understand/execute the defense. Obviously we have some issues with depth and talent, but we should not be this bad.

Mike Lombardi said on one of the NFL Network shows Sunday, that Shanny is really a defense-minded coach, and likes to hand off the offense to his OC and focuses himself on the D. He also pointed out Shanny's horrible D in Denver is what got him fired, and that he's as responsible as Haslett is for this year's performance.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:14 am

Deadskins wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:It falls on Shanahan and Haslett. Shanahan decided to hire Haslett, switch to the 3-4, and he's in charge of personnel moves. It's basically becoming a repeat of what got him fired in Denver, an unbalanced team with a good offense and a terrible defense. Haslett's in charge of the game plan and getting these guys to understand/execute the defense. Obviously we have some issues with depth and talent, but we should not be this bad.

Mike Lombardi said on one of the NFL Network shows Sunday, that Shanny is really a defense-minded coach, and likes to hand off the offense to his OC and focuses himself on the D. He also pointed out Shanny's horrible D in Denver is what got him fired, and that he's as responsible as Haslett is for this year's performance.

that's JUST an opinion - I don't agree that the defense would be better without Hazlett and Shanahan - Hazlett and Shanahan have to do a better job with the players they have and find ways to get some pressure

getting rid of Hazlett and Shanahan does not help this defense

I also think it's incorrect to imply that adding 2 DBs makes the defense better OR that switching to the 3-4 was the real cause

the issues with the D is caused by a number of things - sure Hazlett and Shanahan are responsible (one is the DC and the other is the HC) but the injuries, the lack of cap space and a number of other things are factors too

The 3-4 is just as good or bad as the 4-3 - no secondary can be effective when the front 7 are not applying ANY pressure at all on the QB

This season, the offense is more effective and that is making everyone a lot more frustrated that the defense is not 'keeping up'

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:26 am

PAPDOG67 wrote:You can add stupidly letting Carlos Rogers go. I know he didn't want to be here, but he was the only competent member of our secondary at that time.....and now we get to see what having ZERO competent secondary people looks like.

We "let" Carlos Rogers go like Tom Cruise "let" Katie Holmes go. He WASN'T STAYING HERE.

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:27 am

Now that I think about it though, if we ONLY had Carlos Rogers back I'm sure we would be a top ten defense. LMFAO.

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:31 am

I had to say injuries were the most IMPORTANT reason for the D being so bad this year. Orakpo and Carriker in particular, but we really needed to see Merriweather contribute something to have a snowball's chance in the secondary this season.

It seems like the reason our D is SO bad though is because we're getting hit with a combination of all of the things you listed. Perfect storm.

You know what is scary though is that we're not the worst defense in the league. Saints, Bills and Titans are all ranked worse than us.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:24 pm

riggofan wrote:
PAPDOG67 wrote:You can add stupidly letting Carlos Rogers go. I know he didn't want to be here, but he was the only competent member of our secondary at that time.....and now we get to see what having ZERO competent secondary people looks like.

We "let" Carlos Rogers go like Tom Cruise "let" Katie Holmes go. He WASN'T STAYING HERE.

There's always the franchise tag. Not that that would have helped his morale any.

langleyparkjoe · Post by **langleyparkjoe** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:50 pm

3rd choice...

haslett's a bum

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:16 pm

If you vote for injuries and suspensions, you might as well vote for lack of draft and free agency help by the FO. It's one and the same really. A good FO would prepare for injuries since they are inevitable and work hard to create depth. Depth is extremely important in consistency and going deep in the playoffs.

If 2 major injuries are the direct reason we are now the clear-cut worst defense in the NFL --- the FO should have realized that may be an issue and prepared accordingly.

I sort of think that poor execution by an inept bunch also is directly related to the FO. Right now, we have a poor product on the field. Everyone knew that our 2ndary was weak. The FO should have worked to sign and draft players that could have helped this year. But they didn't.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:25 pm

markshark84 wrote:If 2 major injuries are the direct reason we are now the clear-cut worst defense in the NFL --- the FO should have realized that may be an issue and prepared accordingly.

What math are you using to come to a conclusion of 2 injuries?

- Carriker
- Orakpo
- Merriweather
- Tanard (brain deficiency lol)
- Goff
- Jenkins (it takes 2 years to truly bounce back from his injury)

That's 5 "real" injuries. But more importantly, that's 4 starters on defense GONE. BOTH safeties GONE. Arguably our best pass rusher, GONE. A cornerstone of our D-line GONE.

That's huge.