Atheism?

[UK Skins Fan]

I shall continue to put my faith in the Redskins.

There's a saying, "I put my faith in Allah, but I tie my camel to the post."

I assume with the Redskins the equivalent would be something like, "I put my faith in the Redskins, but I stock my fridge with beer for post-game consolation."

[Cappster]

Saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up with is a logical fallacy.

The irony here is very funny.

I don't know what you are getting at.

A logical fallacy is something that by definition has nothing to do with data.

Also, the claim, "saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up is a logical fallacy," itself lacks "definitive data to back it up," so it's self-referentially fallacious — if we take the idea seriously.

Claiming God is true + no real way to prove God is true = Logical Fallacy.

[Cappster]

Moses and the burning bush

parting of the Red Sea

Jesus raising Lazarus

You do know that none of that crap actually happened, right? At least not as relayed in the Bible.

Says you.

And, you know, Biblical scholars and such. And Wikipedia! When has that site ever been wrong?!

There are always people trying to prove and disprove stories in the Bible. Many want to show a scientific explanation of how something might have occured. Finding a logical explanation for a "miracle" doesn't mean that it happened that way, or that God didn't make it happen. Conversely, Biblical stories might be just that, stories. It's possible they are fictional, to try and relate an idea. But, for the purposes of my back and forth with Cappster, I wanted to know if he personally witnessed what he believed was a miracle, or had God speak to him, would that satisfy him, absent scientific evidence.

If I see a UFO flying around in the sky, am I to believe that is the work of God or am I going to try and figure out what I just witnessed? Saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up with is a logical fallacy. Just, because you cannot explain something at that moment in time doesn't mean there isn't a logical explanation behind the phenomena. Another example would be Northern Lights in Alaska. One could see it and think its the work of some deity, when it is caused by natural forces. The point I am trying to make is don't blindly believe anything unless you can provide irrefutable evidence to its existence.

Anyway, my premise was that this was a form of contact with God that you would accept as divine, and yet there would be no physical proof, at least that could be scientifically quantified. Yet, even though you witnessed it first-hand, you would not believe it, because it could not be scientifically quantified. Kind of a paradox, if you will.

People take hallucinogens to get closer to God, but all they are experiencing are figments of their imaginations. Just, because you think something may be divine, you have to be able to prove its divinity for it to be the truth. If I personally see or experience something that is unexplained, it is my duty to try and debunk whatever happened instead of automatically claiming that it was the work of God. At least that is how I see it.

[Deadskins]

People take hallucinogens to get closer to God, but all they are experiencing are figments of their imaginations.

Can you prove this? Maybe you should take some hallucinogens.

[KazooSkinsFan]

People take hallucinogens to get closer to God, but all they are experiencing are figments of their imaginations.

Can you prove this? Maybe you should take some hallucinogens.

I was wondering about that one too, it seemed pretty out of left field. I don't see what it had to do with the discussion of proof of God's existence.

[Cappster]

People take hallucinogens to get closer to God, but all they are experiencing are figments of their imaginations.

Can you prove this? Maybe you should take some hallucinogens.

Science can prove the effects of peyote's hallucinogenic properties. And I ate some magic mushrooms when I was 16 and that was enough for me. If that is what its like to get closer to God I'd rather stay far away. It was pretty cool to see the spice girls poster I was staring at start dancing, but the whole walls pulsating and things bending in half I could do without.

[Irn-Bru]

Claiming God is true + no real way to prove God is true = Logical Fallacy.

Your use of "real way" begs the question. For example, do logic, reason, and arguments count as a "real way"? If so, then you should check out the rest of this thread, which contains such arguments.

But if not, then we're back to the irony of making an empirically unverifiable claim that all claims must be verifiable in order to be true.

[Deadskins]

the whole walls pulsating and things bending in half I could do without.

Maybe you were seeing reality for the first time.
But my question was really about how you could prove that what you were seeing was a figment of your imagination.

[Cappster]

Claiming God is true + no real way to prove God is true = Logical Fallacy.

Your use of "real way" begs the question. For example, do logic, reason, and arguments count as a "real way"? If so, then you should check out the rest of this thread, which contains such arguments.

But if not, then we're back to the irony of making an empirically unverifiable claim that all claims must be verifiable in order to be true.

When it comes to claiming God is real, there needs to be something tangible there to backup one's claim. Okay, I get that things happen to people where they believe they were talked to by God or whatever yet the only *proof* they have is what they believe they experienced. I can believe the sun revolves around the Earth, but that doesn't mean it is true. We can, however, prove that the Earth revolves around the sun. I also can say I love someone and only I know if I love them or not. However, I can express how I love someone through actions, but I am flesh and bone while God is *poof* something, nothing, or who in the hell knows what.

[Cappster]

the whole walls pulsating and things bending in half I could do without.

Maybe you were seeing reality for the first time.
But my question was really about how you could prove that what you were seeing was a figment of your imagination.

Haha I was seeing reality alright...it was more like an alternate universe! And I know it was a figment of my imagination as the clock sitting on top of the tv, without the use of an hallucinogen, doesn't bend in half.

[Deadskins]

And I know it was a figment of my imagination as the clock sitting on top of the tv, without the use of an hallucinogen, doesn't bend in half.

Why is it's not bending not the figment of your imagination? Perhaps in your "normal" state, your mind cannot perceive the bending.

[Cappster]

And I know it was a figment of my imagination as the clock sitting on top of the tv, without the use of an hallucinogen, doesn't bend in half.

Why is it's not bending not the figment of your imagination? Perhaps in your "normal" state, your mind cannot perceive the bending.

If I were to touch the clock, I would find out that it is not bent in half.

[Deadskins]

And I know it was a figment of my imagination as the clock sitting on top of the tv, without the use of an hallucinogen, doesn't bend in half.

Why is it's not bending not the figment of your imagination? Perhaps in your "normal" state, your mind cannot perceive the bending.

If I were to touch the clock, I would find out that it is not bent in half.

Would you? Even if your mind can't perceive the bend? You do know that most physicists now believe there are dimensions other than the three we perceive (or four if you count time), right? But you don't experience those dimensions through touch (or any other sense). Perhaps with the aide of an hallucinogen, you were able to perceive another dimension.

[Irn-Bru]

Claiming God is true + no real way to prove God is true = Logical Fallacy.

Your use of "real way" begs the question. For example, do logic, reason, and arguments count as a "real way"? If so, then you should check out the rest of this thread, which contains such arguments.

But if not, then we're back to the irony of making an empirically unverifiable claim that all claims must be verifiable in order to be true.

When it comes to claiming God is real, there needs to be something tangible there to backup one's claim.

You didn't answer my question above, though.

[Deadskins]

Here's an example:
An ant is walking on the surface of a balloon. To it, this surface is flat, not bent. Ant's experience life in two dimensions (forward/backward and left/right). So does that make it reality, since its tangible evidence is that the world is two dimensional?

[chiefhog44]

Great story, and what I am about to say is in NO means a slight against beliefs held, because, when it comes down to it, what do I know? I also understand that the timing of this story was at a time when there was a belief among those in the Catholic church that if a baby was not baptized before death, then the baby would be held in limbo, neither gaining access to Heaven nor Hell.

No slight taken. I appreciate your thoughts. I am going to respond to your comments and expound on some of my beliefs, so I will be addressing other comments on this thread from others.

Since that time, the Catholic church has changed their stance on this. Now, baptism is not considered necessary to go to Heaven for babies to avoid limbo. Without discounting the story above, understand that God was a constant from the time this event occurred to the time the Catholic Church changed their stance. Organized religion changed, but not God. So I would challenge (as respectfully as possible), the notion that a father was awoken in the middle of the night from an entity such as God to get a baby baptized before death. As deturmined by the church 40 years later, the Bible does not state nor does God believe, that a baby needs to be baptized to avoid limbo, it was just a midevil theological hypothesis. So the word of God was the same now as it always has been. So if that's the case, what entity woke the father up if God has never held the believe of baptism to avoid limbo. The church has always used fear to gain and keep members, and this is another example.

I agree that the Bible never supported the Catholic belief that infants were not saved. I have long since left the Catholic Church and I left in a bitter fashion, but I have since come to respect people's faith wether I agree with it or not. I look at Mother Teresa and to me, she is a living example of Christ - Catholic - who undoubtedly believed things that I believed were nonsense. Whether supported in the Bible or not - whether a gift form God or not, My parents were able to have a ritual performed that allowed them to have peace of mind for rest of their minds. I believe it was from God, but would never try to convince anyone that it really was from God. My parents believe it and it gives them peace - who am I to tell them that they are mistaken that it was just a considence or an act of energy brought together by thoughts (loose explanation of the Celestine Prophecy)

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18025/limbo

I agree with this. No one knows for sure about any of this. So who am I or you to take that belief from anyone. If it gives you or your family peace of mind to believe that, so be it. As much as it's my right to think that organized religious instituions create these rituals and enforce them with fear, and this was proven with the limbo argument. It's proven all the time in fact. Back when most scriptures were written, it was determined that some things happened because a scientic anomaly couldn't be explained. Parting of the sea's for example. Now, these scriptures are known to be "metaphors" for a greater meaning, but we all know that they weren't intended that way. This story was an effective way to show people in those times how powerful the Gods could be. Hell, if someone could walk on water, there is absolutely a heaven and hell was the thinking. If I don't fall in line, I'm going to end up in a world of fire for my afterlife. So much of this was to push the agenda of creating fear to gain members. Underneath it all though, there are very positive messages from every single God, and the funny part about it, is that they all hold the basic beliefs in common. The differences are the silly rituals that religious institutions have created and forced people to abide by, or the gifting that they guilt people into contributing, or the outfits that they threaten people to wear. Someday, I hope that people realize this and, this is what I mean when I say that people are turning their backs on this practice. They are turning their backs on the institutions themselves. Breaking down the walls of guilt, fear and even torture to find their consciousness within themselves. And some, hopefully most, even after realizing the rituals to be nothing but that, will still turn to the God's for help in HOW to achieve total consciousness.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18025/limbo

This to me is one of many issues I have with organized religion, and one of the many reasons that younger people are turning their backs to this non-sense.

Diana Butler Bass in her book Christianity after Religion would disagree that young folks are turning their backs on "organized" religion. She would say that they are turning their backs on traditonal religion and that a new spiritual new awakening. Butler provides a large volume of stats to support her claim. She actually returned to her United Methodist roots after exploring other more progressive denominations.

http://erb.kingdomnow.org/diana-butler- ... re-review/

I believe she is saying what what I just stated. People are turning their backs on organized religion...the institutions, to awaken or gain consciousness. Some will still use those God's as guideposts though as their messages are very important.

My friends often say that they are Athiests. What does that even mean? Do you not celebrate Chirstmas? Do you not believe that there was a person (or many), who have walked this Earth, creating and teaching principles and ethics to hold yourself accountable for? It's not that far fetched to think that there was. I would be a hypocrite if I said I was an Athiest and I celebrated any kind of holiday. It's organized religion that has twisted up a very good message into something that, when exposed, seems more like a greedy and opportunistic entity feeding on the fear of humanity. Is it that you dont think that some entity could have created the planet, sun, the stars, the moon and the galaxy? Or simply that you don't know for sure so until its proven otherwise, you choose to not believe at all?

I have learned that to study a religion, one would be best served to study the core beliefs from the founder of the religion - not what evolved from the founder's original teachings. What did Jesus say? The Buddha? Mohammed? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? A little bit of historical background information would help too. Did organizd really religion really twist up every good message?

Founder of religion...doesn't make logic sense does it? This is what institutions have pushed us to believe, that there was one person that came up with, for example, the idea to treat others as you yourself would like to be treated. Forcing people to choose what founder to follow to total consciousness, enlightenment if you will. There were several of these so called founders. That is why you, RedOne, study many different religions. You realize this. And once you do that, which it sounds like you have, you realize that they share most all of the core beliefs. I understand what you are saying, but in the context of studying, there should never be a founder of a religion. These are principles to help people govern themselves through their course of life, and ultimately find their consciousness or meaning.

Institutions have twited the meaning of what it means to be religious. They have turned it into a ritual following organization that will accept no other word. The underlying word has been lost in this process.

There seems to be one constant in the major religions: "Do unto other as others as you would have others do unto you." (Matt 7:12) "That which is hateful to you, do not unto another (Hillel). "The Golden Rule."

agreed

Is that enough for people to live on? What happens when you die? Why does God choose one group of people over another? Millions of questions. Answers abound. Groups form based on answers. I haven't began to touch on the which religion has the best manifestation of the transcendent reality? Is there really a transcendent reality? Wrong or right, organized religion will never die. If you tear down the institution, folks would only build it back again. Most folks need community organizations and those community organizations usually are composed of folks who believe the same. Organized religion is inevitable for most folks.

Agree somewhat. Returning to the source is an important lesson in almost every walk of life to find the answer. In religion, as institutions are torn down, and question continue to get brought up, answers are given by a new institution, only to be questioned again. But each time these logical answers are provided, it gets us closer to the true source of the question. What is the meaning of life? Someday, each one of us will arrive at that answer and there will no longer be a need for institutions for those individuals. Most have it occur on their death bed. Some spend a lot of time and find this consciousness by using God's who have walked this Earth before and lived to tell how. This is considered enlightenment. And when you get there, you realize that each one of us, deep down inside, is a God. Some will realize this and some will not. some will realize institutions for what they are, and some will not. Some will realize that there have been many others who have walked this Earth "enlightened", and some will not. Mother Teresa, Haile Salassie, MLK jr., Marley, Lennon, and hundreds more have changed the world for the better and carry and preach most of the same exact messages that the God's before them have carried.

I have much more to say on this, but am going to stop and listen.

There is so much to say on this topic. For me, I have accepted that "Love your neighbor and love God" is all that I need. Don't care if you are atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Agnostic, Jew or any other religion. I do care if you are a good neighbor and if you are not a good neighbor, I will try to love them, but I am not perfect, but I hope to grow each day.

What will happen when I die? Don't care to know - I am too busy trying to love my neighbor and loving God. Does God exist? Don't need proof, but I respect those who do. I just wonder why some folks who don't believe need to go around challenging those who do. To me, that speaks of someone that is seeking something more. Even my simple belief would eventually spark a debate or further definitions from others. This last section is just and explanation of my beliefs and not a comment on what you wrote.

You are a God, so therefore, it exists. Live your life that way and don't get discouraged when people try and break you down, because, as Marley says, "Men and people will fight you down, when you see Jah light"

[Mississippiskinsfan2]

I am Atheist #truestory

How do you explain everything that is? #truequestion

I don't have to explain anything

Well, not if you have no intellectual curiosity.

Intellectual curiosity?

I think blindly following stories in the greatest fictional novel ever written is not exactly intelligent.

Note: The bible is the most shoplifted book of all time.

Who said anything about the Bible? I'm talking about the existence of God. The greatest scientists the world has ever known have almost all, uniformly, believed in the existence of God. I was just wondering how an atheist believes everything was created, if not by a supreme being.

The same way as it would of been with a supreme being. Do you really think god just said let there be light and there was?

[Deadskins]

I am Atheist #truestory

How do you explain everything that is? #truequestion

I don't have to explain anything

Well, not if you have no intellectual curiosity.

Intellectual curiosity?

I think blindly following stories in the greatest fictional novel ever written is not exactly intelligent.

Note: The bible is the most shoplifted book of all time.

Who said anything about the Bible? I'm talking about the existence of God. The greatest scientists the world has ever known have almost all, uniformly, believed in the existence of God. I was just wondering how an atheist believes everything was created, if not by a supreme being.

The same way as it would of been with a supreme being. Do you really think god just said let there be light and there was?

Yes. Some people call that event the Big Bang.

[cvillehog]

I am Atheist #truestory

How do you explain everything that is? #truequestion

I don't have to explain anything

Well, not if you have no intellectual curiosity.

Intellectual curiosity?

I think blindly following stories in the greatest fictional novel ever written is not exactly intelligent.

Note: The bible is the most shoplifted book of all time.

Who said anything about the Bible? I'm talking about the existence of God. The greatest scientists the world has ever known have almost all, uniformly, believed in the existence of God. I was just wondering how an atheist believes everything was created, if not by a supreme being.

The same way as it would of been with a supreme being. Do you really think god just said let there be light and there was?

Yes. Some people call that event the Big Bang.

Except that *something* existed before the big bang, whereas supposedly nothing existed before god said it was so...

[langleyparkjoe]

Dear God, why you let evil things happen to people... like child molestation, rape, murder, torture?

That's what I want to know.. I can care less about how a tree was made or about the clouds in the sky.

If there is a God, why did you even put that apple in the garden? Why not destroy Satan instead of given him a place to govern?

See.. I don't know how it all works right, but I hope I get some kind of explanation when I die because I do believe in God. Than again, how would I know? Would I remember? Would I care? Is there such a thing as a soul? Who designed our internal organs to function they way they do? To many questions.

My simple motto in life, don't hurt others and treat people good.

[langleyparkjoe]

... except DC area cowboy fans.

[Deadskins]

I am Atheist #truestory

How do you explain everything that is? #truequestion

I don't have to explain anything

Well, not if you have no intellectual curiosity.

Intellectual curiosity?

I think blindly following stories in the greatest fictional novel ever written is not exactly intelligent.

Note: The bible is the most shoplifted book of all time.

Who said anything about the Bible? I'm talking about the existence of God. The greatest scientists the world has ever known have almost all, uniformly, believed in the existence of God. I was just wondering how an atheist believes everything was created, if not by a supreme being.

The same way as it would of been with a supreme being. Do you really think god just said let there be light and there was?

Yes. Some people call that event the Big Bang.

Except that *something* existed before the big bang, whereas supposedly nothing existed before god said it was so...

Really? "And the earth was void and without form." Could that describe that *something*?

[Cappster]

Claiming God is true + no real way to prove God is true = Logical Fallacy.

Your use of "real way" begs the question. For example, do logic, reason, and arguments count as a "real way"? If so, then you should check out the rest of this thread, which contains such arguments.

But if not, then we're back to the irony of making an empirically unverifiable claim that all claims must be verifiable in order to be true.

When it comes to claiming God is real, there needs to be something tangible there to backup one's claim.

You didn't answer my question above, though.

Logic, reasoning, and arguments are good for debating theories about the existence of something. The key word is theory as in the theoretical existence of God not that God, without a doubt, exists which would be a Law. Going back to my original argument...God could end all of the speculation if he truly wanted to, but why doesn't he? He either likes effing with us or he doesn't exist.

[Mississippiskinsfan2]

I am Atheist #truestory

How do you explain everything that is? #truequestion

I don't have to explain anything

Well, not if you have no intellectual curiosity.

Intellectual curiosity?

I think blindly following stories in the greatest fictional novel ever written is not exactly intelligent.

Note: The bible is the most shoplifted book of all time.

Who said anything about the Bible? I'm talking about the existence of God. The greatest scientists the world has ever known have almost all, uniformly, believed in the existence of God. I was just wondering how an atheist believes everything was created, if not by a supreme being.

The same way as it would of been with a supreme being. Do you really think god just said let there be light and there was?

Yes. Some people call that event the Big Bang.

Except that *something* existed before the big bang, whereas supposedly nothing existed before god said it was so...

Really? "And the earth was void and without form." Could that describe that *something*?

No and just so you know I'm not an Atheist.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Dear God, why you let evil things happen to people... like child molestation, rape, murder, torture?

As an analogy, my answer would be a 5 year old who asks why her teacher let them spill their juice after the teacher told them 5 times to stop what they were doing, they were going to spill their juice. To the kid, the juice is everything. To the teacher, it's not that simple.