is Joe Gibbs the most overrated coach of all time?

the poster · Post by **the poster** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:03 am

to be overrated, you have to had some memorable accomplishments, so I acknowledge the 3 super bowl trophies. jim zorn would never be mentioned as an overrated coach. and of course, I have to mention everyone's favorite argument for Joe Gibbs....the fact he won 3 times with 3 different qbs. that is indeed great.

but, here is the argument for why Joe Gibbs may be the most overrated head coach of all time.

1. 2 of his 3 super bowl teams won their championship during a strike shortened season. so what, you say.

well, I don't need to give you all a math lesson on why a 9 game season, the same amount my pop Warner teams used to play, might not be enough to determine the playoff positioning and worthiness of a team (norv turner teams would have done pretty good in 9 game seasons, too) .

more importantly, NFL strikes tore other teams seasons apart. it became more about the strength of the front offices around the league in 1982 and 1987. the defending super bowl champions in both of the seasons bwfore the strikes were ill prepared to defend their titles the next year and Gibbs profited from this artificial advantage he was handed. he didn't have to face or worry about the best teams. he had a free pass those years. and so did his teams.

the redskins always had good teams but the strikes eliminated the other consistently good teams of that era. how the business of the sport tossed atidal wave over the competitive balance of the league (particularly in the stronger of the two conferences, the NFC) is how the redskins emerged from the sunami on top as the organization who best steered themselves through a tipsy turvy upside down campaign, twice. not necessarily how they were the best team.

the point is, gibbs' front office did a better for him than parcells And walsh's front offices did for them during those two strike shortened seasons. if they did better, maybe those teams would have made the playoffs like they normally did and maybe they would have faced the redskins and beat them, LiKE THEY NoRMALLY DID, and Gibbs only would have 1 sb ring. then what?

2. if you wanted to measure Joe gibbs against the very best head coaches of the era 1981-1991, what coaches would you choose? I'd choose bill Walsh and bill parcells.

Joe Gibbs record against the very best?

a TERRIBLE 6-11 against parcells including a shutout loss in the championship game. in fact 2 of his 6 wins came when parcels was just getting started as a head coach, when he had a 3-12-1 team his first year in 83.

in seasons where the playing field was even and both teams were above .500? you don't even want to ask. pure domination by parcells over Gibbs.

the other great of this era was Walsh:
2-4. Gibbs did slip by him Walsh in the NFC title game 24-21 for one of his two wins.

Gibbs total against the best coaches in this era? 8-15. not legendary at all.

3. come to think of it, the best teams of that era are often cited as the 49ers, giants, and redskins (all winning multiple super bowls).

Joe Gibbs record in the playoffs against the best organizations of the era?
1-2

4. what might be the most damning argument to Gibbs being overrated is while other legendary coaches (that gibbs shares accolades with), built their legacy on beating the best coaches and the best teams when it mattered the most, (bill parcells willing his 90 giants over the 2 time defending champion 49ers, Jimmy Johnson's cowboys beating the other top team at the time in back to back championship games) , Joe Gibbs' teams were skating through the playoffs playing teams like the Atlanta friggin falcons, or the Detroit friggin lions, twice (parcells was never given the free pass of somehow getting Detroit in January during a sb run!) or the Minnesota friggin Vikings, twice.

they faced an old cowboys team in 82 but give credit where credit is due because it's his only playoff game against a top team during a sb run that he won. the rest were pretty much power puff games (again, a direct result of the aftermath of 2 of the strike damaged sb seasons)

see, what redskin fans don't see, to understand about "critics" or what they call "haters" is that People , especially those whose vote counts typically like to evaluate a person or a team p against the very best in the biggest match. that's what competition is all about.

we don't care what Jimmy Connors does against bob jones, we want to compare him to John McEnroe based on their match ups against one or another.

celtics - hawks?? no! celtics-lakers.

and when you measure Gibbs up, it's first hard to find when his teams faced the best in January (they seem to avoid the best teams of the day more often than not), but when he did go up against the best...he lost two out of three times. not legendary at all.

4. the redskins were known for outspending everybody in the NFL in the 80s....it was said that their payroll was double that of division Philadelphia eagles. imagine the Yankees payroll to the orioles. if you scale it to 1980s payrolls, that's the advantage Gibbs had on so many sundays. you know how critics say anyone can manage the Yankees (because of their payroll)? well......

Gibbs came back in 2004 to a level playing field. with a salary cap in the league, his team couldn't spend much more than the eagles this time around or any other team ..........so this offered an opportunity to shut those critics up.

but.....

in 4 seasons, his record wasn't even .500.

tribeofjudah · Post by **tribeofjudah** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:21 am

ahhh...the poser strikes AGAIN....!!!

ICEMAN · Post by **ICEMAN** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:31 am

Blasphemy I tell you...Blasphemy!!!

cowboykillerzRGiii · Post by **cowboykillerzRGiii** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:42 am

I didn't read a word.. have no idea who posted it and don't care.. move to smack please mods.
Cuz my next post will kill this b85'&

cowboykillerzRGiii · Post by **cowboykillerzRGiii** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:42 am

I didn't read a word.. have no idea who posted it and don't care.. move to smack please mods.
Cuz my next post will kill this b85'&

langleyparkjoe · Post by **langleyparkjoe** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:08 am

I read the title and was like, wtf is dis person stupid or somethin?

Then I saw who started it and was like oh, well nevamind.

No one answer "it" relating to the topic, please don't.

So on that note, any of you Mods care to just delete this entirely or lock it? I'm sure 100% of us won't mind a bit.

Thanks in advance!

TimSkin · Post by **TimSkin** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:22 am

Wow.....it must suck that bad to be a Browns fan if you have to resort to talking smack about a team that isn't in your own division let alone conference....I was gonna say how many dumps did it take to come up with this but somebody beat me to it.

the poster · Post by **the poster** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:49 am

thank you to the 100+ views. I appreciate your support.

For those that claim to not have read it, you also claim I am a Cleveland Browns fan. Don't spend your whole life lying.

For the three people who PM'd me and encouraged me that I won't get a fair deal here and that I know my stuff and in particular, raised facts in my latest post, thanks.

And now, onward to another classic, predictable Washington Redskins sub .500 season

langleyparkjoe · Post by **langleyparkjoe** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:25 pm

*yawn*.. this is a waste of virtual space. can we move it into smack section please Mods?

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:27 pm

the poster, please check your PMs.

SouthLondonRedskin · Post by **SouthLondonRedskin** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:08 pm

the poster wrote:thank you to the 100+ views. I appreciate your support.

For those that claim to not have read it, you also claim I am a Cleveland Browns fan. Don't spend your whole life lying.

The Poster wrote:

...you're not getting rg3 though so forget about him....he's a Cleveland brown....and your meaningless win vs the giants at the end of the year cost u him (thank u very much).

you guys will get something like Matt Flynn plus Ryan tannehill. enjoy.

'thank u very much'....????

Someone gave themselves away a long time ago....

[-X

the poster · Post by **the poster** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:17 pm

SouthLondonRedskin wrote:The Poster wrote:

...you're not getting rg3 though so forget about him....he's a Cleveland brown....and your meaningless win vs the giants at the end of the year cost u him (thank u very much).

you guys will get something like Matt Flynn plus Ryan tannehill. enjoy.

At that time, I didn't recognize how desperate the Redskins front office was going to act.

Not many people would think the Redskins would actually use 4 draft picks (including 3 first rounders) and a high 2nd rounder to select one player - any player.

To PROVE my point, if I go back in time then....will I find Redskin fans who were saying: "yes I'd like RG3 too.....but I dont want to trade more than a first and maybe a second." ? I would find a TON of YOU as well.

The redskins desperation fooled us ALL.

HarleyHog · Post by **HarleyHog** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:23 pm

I have avoided responding to this ay-wipe as much as I can. I don't give a rat's patootie whether this maroon has signed affadavits from Gibbs himself confessing to incompetence, I DONT WANT TO SEE THIS ON OUR FAN SITE!!! Go AWAY. This is a place for OUR hopes, not your polluted bilgewater. Go prick your finger (sic) typing on a Cowpie site or somewhere else where your Insight and brilliance will be appreciated. If they offered a pay service to edit out your every comment, i would be the first subscriber. I dont want or expect my Hogmates to all toe the line or agree, only to actually CARE about and for the team. Incite is not the same as insight. May the poster awake some day to find his figgins hanging in a tree.

emoses14 · Post by **emoses14** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:45 pm

HarleyHog wrote: VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS

Incite is not the same as insight.

FUNNY POINT.

[/b]

Forgive the paraphrashing, but I wanted to get to my favorite part. I may have to steal that for my new signature.

HarleyHog · Post by **HarleyHog** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:47 pm

emoses14 wrote:
HarleyHog wrote: VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS VALID POINTS

Incite is not the same as insight.

FUNNY POINT.

[/b]

Forgive the paraphrashing, but I wanted to get to my favorite part. I may have to steal that for my new signature.

No need to steal, freely given. HTTR

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:14 pm

Whoever deleted my post could have sent this stupid thread to smack as kindly requested.

Way to go. :roll:

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:18 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:Whoever deleted my post could have sent this stupid thread to smack as kindly requested.

Way to go.

You can find your post, along with the others that were attacking the poster, in the Smack Forum.

http://thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38168

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:25 pm

Has anybody seen sick POSTS ... (more details in the smack thread)

... DESPERATELY SEEKING ATTENTION???

Do not do the honour to oblige them with a RESPONSE

Thank you for your cooperation.

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:27 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:Whoever deleted my post could have sent this stupid thread to smack as kindly requested.

Way to go.

You can find your post, along with the others that were attacking the poster, in the Smack Forum.

http://thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38168

Well, there were TWO options to handle a deliberate provocation to the members of the board. Yours was one of them. A matter of judgement. :wink:

rskin72 · Post by **rskin72** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:46 pm

After reading this a couple of times I am again reminded of just how much time and effort you will devote to a team that, by your own words, you do not like/follow/support anymore. While there are some statements that are true (i.e. w/l records), there are many more suppositions drawn from faulty logic…..or the mere premise to try and tweak those of us who come to a Redskins homer website to discuss the team we support in friendly confines. While we may disagree on various Redskin related issues, we are still united in the desire to see our team succeed, and return to glory.

I would dispute your first premise, the definition of overrated. I fail to see how a HOF coach with a winning pct of .621 (.674 if you take away his record when he returned in 04)….which is higher than either Walsh or Parcells…. with 3 SB rings and a 4th trip to the SB, …with three different starting QB’s…could be even in the conversation as overrated. Is Phil Jackson overrated because he only won with “star players”? Is Bill Walsh overrated because he only won with Joe Montana….after all, Walsh had a losing record with the 49er’s prior to the 81 season when Montana started all 16 games? Overrated to me implies someone or something that is highly touted, but consistently fails to live up to expectations. Since the expectation of a NFL franchise is to make it to the playoffs, then to the SB, and to ultimately win the SB, I would say that Joe Gibbs met and exceeded expectations. I can provide some examples that I would classify as overrated…such as the Dallas Cowboys teams of the past decade, Norv Turner, Tony Romo, Steve Spurrier as a NFL coach, Pete Carrol as a NFL coach…sure others on this board can come up with other pertinent examples.

I also love how you seem to consider the strike shortened seasons as some type of advantage for the Redskins over other teams. Each team had the same problem set during a strike season. How is it that the same organizations that could put together multiple SB winning teams in the 80’s like the 49ers and the Giants were suddenly inept for a strike shortened season? For example, in ’87 the Giants were just coming off of a 14-2 season in ’86 and a SB victory...so I fail to see how the Redskins were at a competitive advantage there. In 87, the 49er’s had a better regular season record than the Redskins at 13-2, but LOST to the Vikings in the playoffs, a team that the Redskins beat on their way to a SB triumph. Oh, by the way, that Vikings team was a wild card entry, and was 8-7 during the regular season. Bottom line is that you play with the cards that you are dealt. It is neither the Redskins nor Joe Gibbs fault that those strikes happened….but you chose to give the other teams/coaches a free pass for those two seasons while holding it against Joe Gibbs.

Same rational holds true WRT salary cap….or the lack therein…back in the 80’s. Just like today, every team played under the same rules. Let’s take one year in example, 1987, where the Skins roster was 19th for average salary that season (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1360126.html) You say it was wide knowledge that the Redskins had a larger budget that other teams….citing the Eagles as an example of who we outspent….but you fail to provide references for your assertions. And, based on your prior arguments, why bring up the Eagles….I would ask how did we spend as compared with other winning organizations at the time? It appears that you conveniently forget about Eddie DeBartolo Jr., owner of the 49ers…..he spent a lot of money on his team/organization as evidenced by this paragraph http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/sport ... wanted=all

“DeBartolo gave it to them. In the days before the salary cap, he provided Walsh with an embarrassment of talent, including, at one point, three All-Pro nose guards. He flew the team on a private plane and gave players’ wives necklaces after Super Bowl triumphs. “

Also, this article provides insight that, again in ’87, the Giants and 49ers spent more in player salaries than did the Redskins….though you would appear correct about the Eagles being outspent by us.
http://articles.mcall.com/1987-02-15/sp ... erage-base

This “level playing field” argument is baseless as well. Each team has always played under the same set of league rules. If some teams decided to spend more on player salaries to improve their team vice owners pocketing a larger share of the profits…then that was a decision of the team’s owner. And, as it has been well documented, just because a team owner spends money does not ensure success…..just look at the Redskins over the past few seasons.

The argument of who the Redskins beat in the playoffs back in the 80’s is also a meaningless point as we did not pick our opponents….the record and seeding provided that pairing. Maybe Walsh and Parcells are overrated because their teams lost to inferior competition many times, so more playoff meetings between those teams and the Redskins were not possible…..Heck, Walsh was one and done for 3 straight seasons from 85 – 87. Also, Gibbs took his teams to more playoff games than either Walsh or Parcells and had a higher playoff winning percentage than Parcells…..would have had a higher percentage than Walsh as well if we take out his second stint as a Redskin head coach and compare his record in the 80’s only. Also…that 17-0 loss that the Redskins had to the Giants in 86 that you mention…well, those same Giants smoked Walsh and the 49ers 49 – 3.

Finally, Gibbs HAS been judged, and found worthy, by the HOF voters. So….if you want to debate as to which coach was BETTER, then we can have a civil discussion about that topic. But, as to if a legend (Joe Gibbs) is overrated….well…..that argument holds no water, and you have provided little to no actual evidence to the contrary other than head to head records between Walsh, Gibbs and Parcells.

And....yes....I was bored at work today.....

ATX_Skins · Post by **ATX_Skins** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:15 pm

^^ Jesus dude, you should publish that novel.

rskin72 · Post by **rskin72** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:20 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:^^ Jesus dude, you should publish that novel.

Did I mention that I had a bit of time at work to devote to a worthy cause?

ATX_Skins · Post by **ATX_Skins** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:24 pm

rskin72 wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:^^ Jesus dude, you should publish that novel.

Did I mention that I had a bit of time at work to devote to a worthy cause?

I want to work where you work

Hooligan · Post by **Hooligan** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:33 pm

fetus · Post by **fetus** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:56 pm

Idiot