Offensive Line

[PAPDOG67]

Do we really view Chester as a bust?

No, he wasn't a bust. He wasn't even bad.

Chester was fine. I wonder what SF55 means when he says that it's "pretty well established." Established by what stats? By what experts? This is the first I've heard of it.

I can't figure out why everyone keeps talking about our offensive line like it's some pathetic, cobbled-together piece of crap. QB and WR were much bigger needs going into the offseason.

Our O-line as a whole was pretty pathetic last year.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Do we really view Chester as a bust?

No, he wasn't a bust. He wasn't even bad.

Chester was fine. I wonder what SF55 means when he says that it's "pretty well established." Established by what stats? By what experts? This is the first I've heard of it.

I can't figure out why everyone keeps talking about our offensive line like it's some pathetic, cobbled-together piece of crap. QB and WR were much bigger needs going into the offseason.

Our O-line as a whole was pretty pathetic last year.

That's basically ESPN fly by level analysis. There was a lot that went on, and clearly not all of it was bad. And in the end our stats weren't even that bad for an O-line that had so many starters out for so long. And they really pulled a good effort to close out the last few games of the season.

[The Hogster]

Our line was/is average. But, let's be real. The sacks number is not accurate. John Beck took 7 or 8 in one game playing pitty pat with the ball too long.

And, RG3Ints couldn't outrun a Sloth, and he's never seen coverage he couldn't throw into.

If we are looking at sacks as a stat to judge the O Line, RG3 will improve those numbers. We do need a RT and a LG though. Brown & Lichtensteiger are not healthy.

[CanesSkins26]

It all depends on wht we expect from the team. If we are happy with 5-11 or 6-10 then sure our offensive line is good enough. If we want to contend for the division it needs to get better and probably needs new starters at right tackle and left guard.

[CanesSkins26]

Do we really view Chester as a bust?

I don't. Wasn't he hurt? Just b/c a guy get's hurt doesn't mean that he's not a capable player. Also keep in mind that he's under contract so he'll be playing and most likely starting on the Rt side.

No, he wasn't a bust. He wasn't even bad.

See, that's what I thought as well.

I actually didn't think we needed to go RG hunting, but just wait and see what Chester looks like in year 2 in offense with a better RT. I thought RT, yes-go get someone right NOW; possibly LG depending on what they thought of Kory pre-injury and about his recovery(to err on side of caution, I wanted a LG to replace him, but would understand if only a young guy brought in to battle him via draft) and I could be talked into a center, though pretty ok with who we have, just not what's behind him.

LT doesn't need to be discussed in my opinion.

I share SF33's overall concern w/OL but I believe Chester surrendered zero sacks. That could be wrong but that's what the "Inernets" tell me.

Anyway, one stud would go a long way toward mollifying such concerns. On the glass half-full side we could say:

Trent = very good
Licht = good
Monty = good
Chester = good
Smith/Brown = (w/fingers crossed) good

This is an optimistic view to be sure. The truth is probably somewhere between this and "the OL sky is falling."

It'd be great if we could call the backups good and most of the starters very good.

DarthMonk

Lichtensteiger is awful. At best he is a bench player. We need a new starting left guard pretty badly. Brown hasn't been healthy and hasn't performed the way he did in New Orleans, and it's way too early to make a judgement on Smith. Right tackle is a major question mark.

[skinsfan#33]

Our line was/is average. But, let's be real. The sacks number is not accurate. John Beck took 7 or 8 in one game playing pitty pat with the ball too long.

And, RG3Ints couldn't outrun a Sloth, and he's never seen coverage he couldn't throw into.

If we are looking at sacks as a stat to judge the O Line, RG3 will improve those numbers. We do need a RT and a LG though. Brown & Lichtensteiger are not healthy.

Hogster,
RG3 (not RG3Int) has 2 things going against him. Running QB's take more sacks than pockett passers and rookie QBs take a lot of sack they shouldn't.
I do have a problem with my own first point. Is RG3 your typical running QB or is he more of a pocket passer (that can run). If he plays like the first group, as a rookie he will take more sacks than RG#Int. I'm pretty sure he will eventually primarily be a pocket passer, but how long will that take.

The only site I could find (with a limited search) that broke down and assigned the blame to the OL for sack and QB hits that they were responsible for was this site:

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/teamOL.php

They have our OL as middle of the road for sacks, but attrocious for QB hits (meaning only two teams worse).

Watching RG#Int getting the snot beat out of him was bad enoug. I would vomit, if we put the future of our franchise behind that same OL.

[PAPDOG67]

Do we really view Chester as a bust?

No, he wasn't a bust. He wasn't even bad.

Chester was fine. I wonder what SF55 means when he says that it's "pretty well established." Established by what stats? By what experts? This is the first I've heard of it.

I can't figure out why everyone keeps talking about our offensive line like it's some pathetic, cobbled-together piece of crap. QB and WR were much bigger needs going into the offseason.

Our O-line as a whole was pretty pathetic last year.

That's basically ESPN fly by level analysis. There was a lot that went on, and clearly not all of it was bad. And in the end our stats weren't even that bad for an O-line that had so many starters out for so long. And they really pulled a good effort to close out the last few games of the season.

No, that would be analysis by watching every game last year and being thoroghly disgusted with our O-line play in a majority of the contests. Anyone who thinks our O-line is "good" or close to good is kidding themsleves. We need a major talent influx there.

[KazooSkinsFan]

It all depends on wht we expect from the team. If we are happy with 5-11 or 6-10 then sure our offensive line is good enough. If we want to contend for the division it needs to get better and probably needs new starters at right tackle and left guard.

So our line sucks or it's "good enough?" Those are our only choices? I reject statement as the crap that it is. No one argued it's "good enough."

[KazooSkinsFan]

What I said:

There was a lot that went on, and clearly not all of it was bad

What you heard:

Anyone who thinks our O-line is "good" or close to good is kidding themsleves

Gotcha, if not everything was bad, that means we're "good." You said "pretty pathetic." My choices are that or "good." Again, rejected as the crap that it is. And when you quote something that means someone actually said it...

[Irn-Bru]

Our O-line as a whole was pretty pathetic last year.

According to multiple sites that do advanced statistical analysis, the Skins were probably top-10 in run blocking and middle of the pack in pass protection. What do you know that they are missing? You've got a pretty convincing case you'll need to make to argue that they were "pathetic" last year.

[Irn-Bru]

I can't figure out why everyone keeps talking about our offensive line like it's some pathetic, cobbled-together piece of crap. QB and WR were much bigger needs going into the offseason.

Completely agree with QB being a bigger need that is now solved! Completely disagree with WR. The two guys we went out and got MAY end up being better than what we had, but they aren't huge upgrades!

Where did I say they were? All I said was that WR was a bigger need than OL going into this offseason.

So they couldn't pass protect and couldn't run the ball, but other than that they were great!

We had a mid-season malaise, which still baffles me to this day, that depresses our conventional stats. Not to mention the several games Beck got to start at that same time. (Hmm . . . I'm sensing some correlation here.)

So I think to get the fuller picture you have to look at performances weighted according to the strength of the opponent. On that analysis (check out both Advanced NFL Stats and Football Outsiders for details), the Skins line was mediocre. Advanced NFL Stats really doesn't like our pass protection, but FO (who tend to adjust more by giving more weight to recent games) think we came out middle of the pack.

But even if we take the worse rankings, we were bottom of the league in pass protection and top-10 (or more) in run blocking. Barring some kind of bizarre outlier, it's really not possible for an offensive line to be one of the worst in the league overall when it's top-10 in either run or pass blocking.

My assessment from having watched the whole season with my own two eyes lines up closer to what FO says. In the middle of the year I'd have agreed that our line was terrible, but for the season as a whole, preseason through our last game, the line performed at about an NFL average rate.

And we were improving over the last third of the year, for whatever that is worth. I tend to think that's significant.

Other than Tokey, I mean TW, tell me any guy on our OL that would start for any of the top 20 teams? I'm not asking for top ten talent, I just want guys that would start on half of the teams in the NFL!

Is that asking too much?

Chester.

[The Hogster]

Our line was/is average. But, let's be real. The sacks number is not accurate. John Beck took 7 or 8 in one game playing pitty pat with the ball too long.

And, RG3Ints couldn't outrun a Sloth, and he's never seen coverage he couldn't throw into.

If we are looking at sacks as a stat to judge the O Line, RG3 will improve those numbers. We do need a RT and a LG though. Brown & Lichtensteiger are not healthy.

Hogster,
RG3 (not RG3Int) has 2 things going against him. Running QB's take more sacks than pockett passers and rookie QBs take a lot of sack they shouldn't.
I do have a problem with my own first point. Is RG3 your typical running QB or is he more of a pocket passer (that can run). If he plays like the first group, as a rookie he will take more sacks than RG#Int. I'm pretty sure he will eventually primarily be a pocket passer, but how long will that take.

The only site I could find (with a limited search) that broke down and assigned the blame to the OL for sack and QB hits that they were responsible for was this site:

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/teamOL.php

They have our OL as middle of the road for sacks, but attrocious for QB hits (meaning only two teams worse).

Watching RG#Int getting the snot beat out of him was bad enoug. I would vomit, if we put the future of our franchise behind that same OL.

We need to upgrade our line. My point is that Grossman is not exactly fleet of foot. Some of those QB hits are attributed to him not being able to slide around in the pocket like the better QBs do (Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Big Ben etc). I'm not suggesting that he's going to tuck and run, but use his athleticism to extend plays that don't result in hits and sacks.

[CanesSkins26]

It all depends on wht we expect from the team. If we are happy with 5-11 or 6-10 then sure our offensive line is good enough. If we want to contend for the division it needs to get better and probably needs new starters at right tackle and left guard.

So our line sucks or it's "good enough?" Those are our only choices? I reject statement as the crap that it is. No one argued it's "good enough."

You can reject what you want, I couldn't care less. If you think our line is "good", "decent", whatever, good for you.

[The Hogster]

Our line was/is average. But, let's be real. The sacks number is not accurate. John Beck took 7 or 8 in one game playing pitty pat with the ball too long.

And, RG3Ints couldn't outrun a Sloth, and he's never seen coverage he couldn't throw into.

If we are looking at sacks as a stat to judge the O Line, RG3 will improve those numbers. We do need a RT and a LG though. Brown & Lichtensteiger are not healthy.

Hogster,
RG3 (not RG3Int) has 2 things going against him. Running QB's take more sacks than pockett passers and rookie QBs take a lot of sack they shouldn't.
I do have a problem with my own first point. Is RG3 your typical running QB or is he more of a pocket passer (that can run). If he plays like the first group, as a rookie he will take more sacks than RG#Int. I'm pretty sure he will eventually primarily be a pocket passer, but how long will that take.

The only site I could find (with a limited search) that broke down and assigned the blame to the OL for sack and QB hits that they were responsible for was this site:

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/teamOL.php

They have our OL as middle of the road for sacks, but attrocious for QB hits (meaning only two teams worse).

Watching RG#Int getting the snot beat out of him was bad enoug. I would vomit, if we put the future of our franchise behind that same OL.

We need to upgrade our line. My point is that Grossman is not exactly fleet of foot. Some of those QB hits are attributed to him not being able to slide around in the pocket like the better QBs do (Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Big Ben etc). I'm not suggesting that he's going to tuck and run, but use his athleticism to extend plays that don't result in hits and sacks.

[The Hogster]

Our line was/is average. But, let's be real. The sacks number is not accurate. John Beck took 7 or 8 in one game playing pitty pat with the ball too long.

And, RG3Ints couldn't outrun a Sloth, and he's never seen coverage he couldn't throw into.

If we are looking at sacks as a stat to judge the O Line, RG3 will improve those numbers. We do need a RT and a LG though. Brown & Lichtensteiger are not healthy.

Hogster,
RG3 (not RG3Int) has 2 things going against him. Running QB's take more sacks than pockett passers and rookie QBs take a lot of sack they shouldn't.
I do have a problem with my own first point. Is RG3 your typical running QB or is he more of a pocket passer (that can run). If he plays like the first group, as a rookie he will take more sacks than RG#Int. I'm pretty sure he will eventually primarily be a pocket passer, but how long will that take.

The only site I could find (with a limited search) that broke down and assigned the blame to the OL for sack and QB hits that they were responsible for was this site:

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/teamOL.php

They have our OL as middle of the road for sacks, but attrocious for QB hits (meaning only two teams worse).

Watching RG#Int getting the snot beat out of him was bad enoug. I would vomit, if we put the future of our franchise behind that same OL.

We need to upgrade our line. My point is that Grossman is not exactly fleet of foot. Some of those QB hits are attributed to him not being able to slide around in the pocket like the better QBs do (Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Big Ben etc). I'm not suggesting that he's going to tuck and run, but use his athleticism to extend plays that don't result in hits and sacks.

[riggofan]

I can't figure out why everyone keeps talking about our offensive line like it's some pathetic, cobbled-together piece of crap. QB and WR were much bigger needs going into the offseason.

Completely agree with QB being a bigger need that is now solved! Completely disagree with WR. The two guys we went out and got MAY end up being better than what we had, but they aren't huge upgrades!

Where did I say they were? All I said was that WR was a bigger need than OL going into this offseason.

LMAO. I'm glad you defended yourself this way, Irn-Bru. I thought the same thing when I read this comment.

I would also point out that you can't say Morgan/Garcon "may" be better than what we had and then say "but they aren't huge upgrades" in the same sentence. You just completely contradicted yourself.

[Deadskins]

My point is that Grossman is not exactly fleet of foot. Some of those QB hits are attributed to him not being able to slide around in the pocket

And many were because his awareness sucks too. There were times he just got leveled from the right side. He just flat out didn't see the pass rush. And then there's the times he just hung on to the ball too long. I think having RGIII behind center will fix a lot of those problems.

[the poster]

Okay, so Mike Shanahan has forgotten more about football than I will ever know... but what exactly is he seeing here that I don't?

Two days into free agency, and the only offensive lineman we've been linked to is Ben Grubbs (who insiders say is a longshot to sign in Washington.) I see the offensive line as the biggest weakness on our offense. Surely, if we're planning to invest the #2 pick in a QB, we'll want to protect them. I just don't see a starting 5 anywhere on the roster.

First we have Trent Williams. Former #4 overall pick, and the jury has been a little out on him. Still, Pro Football Focus, one of the leaders in offensive line scouting says he could be on his way to a Pro Bowl some day. Let's just assume he stays out of trouble and #71 is at least average at LT. That leaves the LG position. Kory Lichtensteiger is unsigned, and even if we re-sign him, so what? Is he going to be a stud player? He's just a guy. I worry the same with Will Montgomery. He seems to be just a guy. Is he going to be a quality center?

Chris Chester was signed last season, and I think it's pretty well established that he was a bust. Jammal Brown has yet to have a healthy season and hasn't shown a bit of the Pro-Bowl talent he flashed in New Orleans.

In a lot of ways, this line is in worse shape than last season. There's at least less cause for optimism since we've seen another season from most of these guys and know what to expect. Is there a dark horse starter coming back? Willie Smith? Mo Hurt?

Probably not...

Let's hope the Redskins start putting some money into that o-line. Signing WR's won't help if our new rookie QB is on his butt.

Trent Williams is better than what you say. he's better than average now and can be a pro bowl player. but...he's also one joint away from being banned.

lichtensteiger next to Williams is actually good but he's coming off Manley surgery. if he wasn't I would see the skins have strong left side.

this is where it gets dicey. Montgomery is better suited for the bench, Chester probably the same and they have no right tackle.

there is no depth here either. using draft picks now on it for depth I guess but they also have no secondary. it is indeed a problem. and the redskins are back to outsourcing when it comes to fielding a team.

[skinsfan#33]

I can't figure out why everyone keeps talking about our offensive line like it's some pathetic, cobbled-together piece of crap. QB and WR were much bigger needs going into the offseason.

Completely agree with QB being a bigger need that is now solved! Completely disagree with WR. The two guys we went out and got MAY end up being better than what we had, but they aren't huge upgrades!

Where did I say they were? All I said was that WR was a bigger need than OL going into this offseason.

I don't know what you are responding to here. You said going into the offseason WR and QB were bigger issues than OL. I agreed with you on the QB situation but disagreed with the WR position being a bigger need than OL.

We had a mid-season malaise, which still baffles me to this day, that depresses our conventional stats. Not to mention the several games Beck got to start at that same time. (Hmm . . . I'm sensing some correlation here.)

The team couldn't run worth a darn before the injuries (except against the worst run defense in the NFL)

So I think to get the fuller picture you have to look at performances weighted according to the strength of the opponent. On that analysis (check out both Advanced NFL Stats and Football Outsiders for details), the Skins line was mediocre. Advanced NFL Stats really doesn't like our pass protection, but FO (who tend to adjust more by giving more weight to recent games) think we came out middle of the pack.

But even if we take the worse rankings, we were bottom of the league in pass protection and top-10 (or more) in run blocking. Barring some kind of bizarre outlier, it's really not possible for an offensive line to be one of the worst in the league overall when it's top-10 in either run or pass blocking.

I saw one of those sites. I also saw a site that had them in the bottom five. But every site has them as the third worst team for getting the QB hit!

The site that I saw that had the Skins OL in the top ten in run blocking also had both Gafney and Moss rated higher than Garcon each of the past two years. Gafney was rated significantly higher than Garcon/

What does this have to do with the OL? Nothing! I only brought it up to illustrate two point. The WRs weren't in worse shape than the OL and more importantly you can make stats do anything you want!

My assessment from having watched the whole season with my own two eyes lines up closer to what FO says. In the middle of the year I'd have agreed that our line was terrible, but for the season as a whole, preseason through our last game, the line performed at about an NFL average rate.

And we were improving over the last third of the year, for whatever that is worth. I tend to think that's significant.

I'll agree the run blocking was good at the end of the year with mostly backups in, but it was pretty bad at the beginning of the year and was down right horrible in the middle like you said.

Other than Tokey, I mean TW, tell me any guy on our OL that would start for any of the top 20 teams? I'm not asking for top ten talent, I just want guys that would start on half of the teams in the NFL!

Is that asking too much?

Chester.

I disagree, but I'll give you him. So we have two OL that aren't in the bottom third of the NFL. Yippee!!!

[skinsfan#33]

I can't figure out why everyone keeps talking about our offensive line like it's some pathetic, cobbled-together piece of crap. QB and WR were much bigger needs going into the offseason.

Completely agree with QB being a bigger need that is now solved! Completely disagree with WR. The two guys we went out and got MAY end up being better than what we had, but they aren't huge upgrades!

Where did I say they were? All I said was that WR was a bigger need than OL going into this offseason.

LMAO. I'm glad you defended yourself this way, Irn-Bru. I thought the same thing when I read this comment. ]/quote]

what the heck are you talking about. In=Bru didn't need to defend himself. HE said that he thaought QB and WR were bigger needs going into the offseason. I agreed with him on the QB but not on thw WR.

I would also point out that you can't say Morgan/Garcon "may" be better than what we had and then say "but they aren't huge upgrades" in the same sentence. You just completely contradicted yourself.

How? Did I need to say, "may prove to be in the future but haven't been yet"? I thought it was clear enough, but hopefully it is broken down Barney style enough for you!

[Deadskins]

I can't figure out why everyone keeps talking about our offensive line like it's some pathetic, cobbled-together piece of crap. QB and WR were much bigger needs going into the offseason.

Completely agree with QB being a bigger need that is now solved! Completely disagree with WR. The two guys we went out and got MAY end up being better than what we had, but they aren't huge upgrades!

Where did I say they were? All I said was that WR was a bigger need than OL going into this offseason.

LMAO. I'm glad you defended yourself this way, Irn-Bru. I thought the same thing when I read this comment.

I would also point out that you can't say Morgan/Garcon "may" be better than what we had and then say "but they aren't huge upgrades" in the same sentence. You just completely contradicted yourself.

Couldn't they just be marginally better and he wouldn't have contradicted himself?

[cowboyhater4life]

We still need that down the field vertical WR. Every WR is 6-2 or shorter. Skins should have Manningham in for a visit.

[Kilmer72]

As far as WR we can live with what we have. We need Oline, Linebackers or secondary still. Can't fix everything at once.

[the poster]

the redskins are a unique running teaming that most offenses are right handed and run to the right. the redskins, due to having better players on the left, rely on the left side.

I just finished reading a comprehensive review of all 32 teams starting olineman, their scouting report, and where they rank.

as I offered before, Trent Williams was highly thoughtof....I think they had him around 11 of 32 and called him pro owl caliber if he keeps at it.

Montgomery surprised me, they had him in the top 15 of centers.

lg was not ranked at all for wash due to injuries.

the guy that didn't fare well is your right guard Chris Chester, described as a better fit as a backup and his run blocking grade was one of the worst out there. they had him 27th.

rt, jamaal brown was ranked 19th.

te you might be suprised that Fred Davis only ranked 26th out of the top 50 tes in the game. what hurt him the most was his run blocking score was 1 out of 10 and considered very last of all starting tight ends.

bleacherreport.com/NFL1000

all in all, the positions that were reviewed werent too too bad for washington, except don't look at qb. out of 50 qbs, they nabbed positions 49 and 47

[Kilmer72]

You did a better job at that poster. Skins (We) are not that bad off. Your Browns will be fine eventually under Mike. I wonder why you are here though. If you aren't a fan and you aren't a rival then why?