Quarterback, would you rather...

[RayNAustin]

Hey, Whatabout Tebow? He is having success. By naming Tommy Maddox, you have given Shanny a 100% on drafting QBs that have had some success.

Tebow? You know, I'm pulling for the kid, because he's a real nice kid, and he has had some success, but he's not even played a full season. Frankly, I don't give him much of a shot at being "the man" in Denver or anywhere else.

Maddox is another one of those journeymen QB who have been starters for a few years and a couple of decent seasons, and has won a playoff game. So it's hard to say he was a "Bust" .. he was just marginally successful like a lot of those guys that are middle of the road, journeymen ... Grossman is another one kinda like that.

A few on that list could go either way .... I can understand that if you are picked in the first round, a case could be made that you either ended up being very good or you were a bust. I could buy that, and that would lower those percentages a few points.

[RayNAustin]

How about a current bench warmer or someone sitting on the sofa.....I mean, it wouldn't cost much, RIGHT....???

David Carr
Chase Daniels
Charlie Whitehurst
Jarmarcus Russell
Matt Flynn

.....how about Colt Brennan......or Jason Campbell...?

Surely, I jest......

Uh, you left out my favorite - Mark Brunell.

Hey, Brunell had some pretty good years bubba. In his prime, he was a pretty damned good QB ... not what I would call Elite, and the HOF is not going to see a bust of him, but he has some pretty decent career stats.

[skinsfan#33]

OK, I trudged through the first-round draft lists for the last 25 years. Somebody should tally the hits and misses, but my impression, as I was looking at who was drafted, is that about two out of three first-round QBs flat fails.

Remembering the Shuler-year, I suggest that we all ignore the draft spot and who might be available. Concentrate now, and you'll go nuts before training camp starts.

Here they are (first number is the overall selection. Rex Grossman, for instance, was the 22nd pick overall in 2003):

2011
1 Carolina Panthers Cam Newton QB (F)(E)
8 Tennessee Titans Jake Locker QB
10 Jacksonville Jaguars Blaine Gabbert QB
12 Minnesota Vikings Christian Ponder QB

2010
1 St. Louis Rams Sam Bradford QB (F)
25 Denver Broncos Tim Tebow QB

2009
1 Detroit Lions Matthew Stafford QB Georgia (F)(E)
5 New York Jets Mark Sanchez QB USC (F)
17 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Josh Freeman QB Kansas State

2008
3 Atlanta Falcons Matt Ryan QB Boston College (F)
18 Baltimore Ravens Joe Flacco QB Delaware

2007
1 Oakland Raiders JaMarcus Russell QB Louisiana State (B)
22 Cleveland Browns Brady Quinn QB Notre Dame

2006
3 Tennessee Titans Vince Young QB Texas (B)
10 Arizona Cardinals Matt Leinart QB USC (B)
11 Denver Broncos Jay Cutler QB Vanderbilt (E)

2005
1 San Francisco 49ers Alex Smith QB Utah (F?)
24 Green Bay Packers Aaron Rodgers QB California (E)
25 Washington Redskins Jason Campbell QB Auburn

2004
1 San Diego Chargers Eli Manning QB Mississippi (F) (E)
4 New York Giants Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State (F) (E)
11 Pittsburgh Steelers Ben Roethlisberger QB Miami (Ohio)(E)
22 Buffalo Bills J.P. Losman QB Tulane

2003
1 Cincinnati Bengals Carson Palmer QB USC (F) (E)
7 Jacksonville Jaguars Byron Leftwich QB Marshall (F)
19 Baltimore Ravens Kyle Boller QB California
22 Chicago Bears Rex Grossman QB Florida

2002
1 Houston Texans David Carr QB Fresno State (B)
3 Detroit Lions Joey Harrington QB Oregon (B)
32 Washington Redskins Patrick Ramsey QB Tulane

2001
1 Atlanta Falcons Michael Vick QB Virginia Tech (F) (E)

2000
18 New York Jets Chad Pennington QB Marshall

1999
1 Cleveland Browns Tim Couch QB Kentucky (B)
2 Philadelphia Eagles Donovan McNabb QB Syracuse (F) (E)
3 Cincinnati Bengals Akili Smith QB Oregon (B)
11 Minnesota Vikings Daunte Culpepper QB Central Florida
12 Chicago Bears Cade McNown QB UCLA

1998
1 Indianapolis Colts Peyton Manning QB Tennessee (F) (E)
2 San Diego Chargers Ryan Leaf QB Washington State (B)

1997
26 San Francisco 49ers Jim Druckenmiller QB Virginia Tech

1996
(First QB was Tony Banks, in the second round)
1995
3 Houston Oilers Steve McNair QB Alcorn State
5 Carolina Panthers Kerry Collins QB Penn State

1994
3 Washington Redskins Heath Shuler QB Tennessee (B)
6 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Trent Dilfer QB Fresno State (F)

1993
1 New England Patriots Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State (F)(E)
2 Seattle Seahawks Rick Mirer QB Notre Dame (B)

1992
6 Cincinnati Bengals David Klingler QB Houston (B)
25 Denver Broncos Tommy Maddox QB UCLA

1991
24 Los Angeles Raiders Todd Marinovich QB USC

1990
1 Indianapolis Colts Jeff George QB Illinois (B)
7 Detroit Lions Andre Ware QB Houston (B)

1989
1 Dallas Cowboys Troy Aikman QB UCLA (F) (E)

1988 (none in 1st round)

1987
1 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Vinny Testaverde QB Miami (Fla.) (F)
6 St. Louis Cardinals Kelly Stouffer QB Colorado State (B)
13 Atlanta Falcons Chris Miller QB Oregon
26 Chicago Bears Jim Harbaugh QB Michigan

1986
3 Houston Oilers Jim Everett QB Purdue (F)
12 Detroit Lions Chuck Long QB Iowa


The Bold text indicates a QB who had a career with varying degrees of success, while the underlined were unremarkable or total busts. I've labeled those in the top 10 picks that turned out to be very good to elite with an E, and the real busts with a B.

First ... we have 30 Bold and 25 Underlined. 54% of first rounders had varying degrees of success.

Of those taken with the top 10 picks, there were 18 Successes 14 Busts (56% success)

Of those that were taken in the top 10 there were 10 elite and 14 busts (41%)

So you have more total busts (59%) with QBs taken with the top 10 picks.

You have successful QBs taken in the first round of 54%, which increases slightly to 56% for those taken in the top 10 picks.

Most of the 2009-2010 are too early to tell either way. Newton and Stafford appear to be the only clear elite talent ... Bradford is iffy but that may be due to the circumstances with the Rams.

Now the real interesting number is the top pick overall for elites ( 8 ) and busts (4). That's the best guarantee of getting an Elite QB ... the first pick overall is twice as likely to be a winner .... everything outside the first pick is almost a flip of the coin.

This is why I say that the better money should be placed on Andrew Luck with the #1 overall pick. Almost a 70% chance of being elite instead of a bust.

I only count three that were elite of the first overall picks and give that were good to very good but not elite. I caught put Vick on the elite list, because of hours much he hurt Atlanta. The Falcons are actually better off with a less talented QB (Ryan) than they were with Vick.

Alex Smith in bold, are you serious? He has been a bust if I have ever seen one, not on the Jabba the hut Russel level, but one decent year on a great team current make him not a bust. Same for Trent Dilfer.

Testiverte had a career that was long, but not so distinguish. He is much closer to Jeff George than he is to Peyton. I put him in the so-so category.

[SkinsJock]

I find it difficult to look at all those QBs and predict what the QBs coming out will do, based on that information


I'm not sure that many QBs will be drafted in the first round
I would be really surprised if Andrew Luck did not become a great QB and R Griffin III did not become a good QB

I do understrand that history has shown that a great many do not do well but these 2 QBs are looking like they will "make it"

[RayNAustin]

I only count three that were elite of the first overall picks and give that were good to very good but not elite. I caught put Vick on the elite list, because of hours much he hurt Atlanta. The Falcons are actually better off with a less talented QB (Ryan) than they were with Vick.

Alex Smith in bold, are you serious? He has been a bust if I have ever seen one, not on the Jabba the hut Russel level, but one decent year on a great team current make him not a bust. Same for Trent Dilfer.

Testiverte had a career that was long, but not so distinguish. He is much closer to Jeff George than he is to Peyton. I put him in the so-so category.

A lot goes into the success of a QB, and some of this is subjective. But, Alex Smith certainly looked like a big BUST ... but this year, his numbers are solid ... a 90 QB rating .... 60% comp. ... 3000 yards ... 16 TD to 5 ints. Those are excellent numbers. I'll take that any day ... that's GOOD Rex Grossman without the turnovers.

Dilfer played for 13 seasons .... no, he didn't set the world on fire, but I hardly could label him a bust. He made the Pro Bowl in 1997. Is that a bust?

Testaverde played for 21 years and appeared in 2 Pro Bowls. Again, not Peyton Manning, but not a bust.

You know, Alex Smith may be a CLUE to a greater truth regarding early 1st round drafted QBs. Aside from trades ... teams with the first 3 picks are the worst three teams in the previous year, and that's not an ideal situation for a green QB to step into. I recall Sonny Jurgensen exclaiming the raw talent of Patrick Ramsey, and how he expected great things from him. Of course, we killed the guy .... he was getting beat up so badly, that even the color commentators on TV were feeling sorry for him. I'm surprised some liberal group didn't organize a "Save Patrick Ramsey" movement

So here we have Alex Smith finally given the tools to be successful, and he goes from being a total BUST to playing very well this year. So obviously, he has some talent ... he may not be an Aaron Rodgers or a Peyton Manning that can literally carry a team on his shoulders ... but very few ever do become a Peyton Manning type.

Here's an interesting debate about the 49ers and their choices between drafting Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers.

http://www.ninersnation.com/2008/6/18/5 ... ron-rodger

The gist of it was that although Aaron Rodgers was better prepared to play right away given his experience in a pro style offense, some contended that Alex Smith had the better upside potential.

Here's a quote from Mel Kiper that is very prophetic about Smith ... ""While (Smith is) not the next John Elway or Troy Aikman, lacking that type of arm strength, the overall package of skills he brings to the table definitely makes him deserving of a lofty NFL grade." -- Mel Kiper Jr., draft expert.

(Note that no one was projecting him to be the next GREAT QB ... just a very good NFL prospect) And that may wind up being the case after all.

What did he say about Rodgers? ""Rodgers is tough, confident, incredibly poised and, most importantly, very few of his passes hit the ground." Mel Kiper Jr., draft expert.

What does Kiper think of Andrew Luck? He places Luck in the #2 spot of the best QB prospect grades he's given in 32 years ... the #1 grade is John Elway.

I would say that such a statement has got to make one think hard about passing on this kid, NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS. He's about as sure of a pick as there will likely be in the draft .... and I'd work a deal for him, no matter how crazy the asking price.

Think about it for a minute ... the Redskins have had 17 #1 draft picks over the past 20 years ... and look where we are now? Is someone going to tell me that giving up 3 or 4 #1s over the next four years is going to doom this franchise? Gimmie a break ... we're 5-10 right now and over the past 4 years, we're 23-40 !! I'm tellin' ya it can't get much worse than this, and people think that saving those picks is better than securing what could be the next John Elway ?

Look, the chances are if we save those 4 #1s, one or two of them may be busts anyway (thank you Jason "I zigged when I shoulda zagged" Campbell, and Carlos "I'm a football player who can't catch a football if my life depended on it" Rogers .... or Trent "you want me to block who?" Williams).

Those that believe that draft picks in 2013, 2014, and 2015 are more valuable that a desperately needed Premier QB now, just can't see the forest for the trees. Who knows where our draft position will be in those out years, or what we will need or who might be available then? Or even if the freaking world as we know it still exists?

This one is a no brainer IF you can convince the holder of that #1 pick to let it go.

[GoSkins]

And we hope that holder of the 1st pick is St. Louis with Bradford or Luck as the prize. Indy will, in my view, demand more because of Manning's health and age.

[skinsfan#33]

I only count three that were elite of the first overall picks and give that were good to very good but not elite. I caught put Vick on the elite list, because of hours much he hurt Atlanta. The Falcons are actually better off with a less talented QB (Ryan) than they were with Vick.

Alex Smith in bold, are you serious? He has been a bust if I have ever seen one, not on the Jabba the hut Russel level, but one decent year on a great team current make him not a bust. Same for Trent Dilfer.

Testiverte had a career that was long, but not so distinguish. He is much closer to Jeff George than he is to Peyton. I put him in the so-so category.

A lot goes into the success of a QB, and some of this is subjective. But, Alex Smith certainly looked like a big BUST ... but this year, his numbers are solid ... a 90 QB rating .... 60% comp. ... 3000 yards ... 16 TD to 5 ints. Those are excellent numbers. I'll take that any day ... that's GOOD Rex Grossman without the turnovers.

So what you're saying is all you expect from the 1st overall pick in his sixth or seventh season is a good performance, like Rex with out some of the turn overs?

WOW! You're easy to please.

Alex Smith is a BUST. Let me repeat that, he is a bust that is bennifitting from what may be the Coach of the Year in Jim Harbaugh.

Dilfer played for 13 seasons .... no, he didn't set the world on fire, but I hardly could label him a bust. He made the Pro Bowl in 1997. Is that a bust?

Yes, that is a bust. Gus Frerotte went to the PB too and played a lot of years and could have won a SB with the 2000 Ravens. For a 7th round pick, Gus is a value. For a top ten pick...

Bust!

Testaverde played for 21 years and appeared in 2 Pro Bowls. Again, not Peyton Manning, but not a bust.

OK, I won't go as far as to call him a bust. No wait let me think about that...

He had one winning record as a starting QB in his first 11 season. If he was a 6th round pick (Rypien) and made 2 PB (like Mark the Ryper) and took 12 seasons to get to his second season with a starting winning record, then he wouldn't be a bust, but since he was #1 overall...

Bust! I changed my mind.

[skinsfan#33]

And we hope that holder of the 1st pick is St. Louis with Bradford or Luck as the prize. Indy will, in my view, demand more because of Manning's health and age.

I don't think that we will have or should even consider giving up the 4 first round picks (or whatever it will take) to get to trade up for Luck. But what we have to hope for is theSKins and Viking losing next week. The Jags and Tampa winning.

That way we have the 5th pick and the Vikes will still have the 3rd and it won't take that much to get in front of Cleveland to be able to draft RG3 with the third pick.

(I would hope for Cleveland beating the Stealers, but that wouldn't be realistic.)

Realistically, w/o a trade, we will draft somewhere between #5 and #8.

[GoSkins]

And we hope that holder of the 1st pick is St. Louis with Bradford or Luck as the prize. Indy will, in my view, demand more because of Manning's health and age.

I don't think that we will have or should even consider giving up the 4 first round picks (or whatever it will take) to get to trade up for Luck. But what we have to hope for is theSKins and Viking losing next week. The Jags and Tampa winning.

That way we have the 5th pick and the Vikes will still have the 3rd and it won't take that much to get in front of Cleveland to be able to draft RG3 with the third pick.

(I would hope for Cleveland beating the Stealers, but that wouldn't be realistic.)

Realistically, w/o a trade, we will draft somewhere between #5 and #8.

Remember who's running the show in Cleveland: Mike Holmgren. He's no pushover.

[RayNAustin]

So what you're saying is all you expect from the 1st overall pick in his sixth or seventh season is a good performance, like Rex with out some of the turn overs?

WOW! You're easy to please.

Alex Smith is a BUST. Let me repeat that, he is a bust that is bennifitting from what may be the Coach of the Year in Jim Harbaugh.

No, that's not what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that perhaps in his first 5 years, he may have been trapped in a no win situation. Now that he has a team around him, including a good defense that keeps the 49er offense from having to score 35 points to win a game, he's more able to perform at a high level. And if he's benefiting from being coached by Harbaugh, what's wrong with that? Isn't that what coaches are supposed to do? Put their players in a position to be successful?

Right now, Smith is 10th place among QBs in the NFL based on QB rating. Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Romo, Schaub, Stafford, Roethlisberger, Ryan, and E. Manning comprise 1-9. They have pretty good teams too, and maybe even make their teams better?

So no, he cannot be considered a bust now ... one good year doesn't make him great, but right now, he's certainly worked his way out of the bust category.

Yes, that is a bust. Gus Frerotte went to the PB too and played a lot of years and could have won a SB with the 2000 Ravens. For a 7th round pick, Gus is a value. For a top ten pick...

Bust!

OK, I won't go as far as to call him a bust. No wait let me think about that...

He had one winning record as a starting QB in his first 11 season. If he was a 6th round pick (Rypien) and made 2 PB (like Mark the Ryper) and took 12 seasons to get to his second season with a starting winning record, then he wouldn't be a bust, but since he was #1 overall...

Bust! I changed my mind.

I don't know what you're smoking, but it's got to be good. If ever there was a QB that benefited from a strong team, it would be Mark Rypien. Mark was an awkward, rather clumsy fellow that wasn't very athletic, but had accuracy, and a great long ball. Out of 11 years, he had three excellent seasons on a DOMINANT Redskin team .... the other 8 years, his QB rating was in the 60's and 70's, and very average.

Testaverde was a FAR SUPERIOR QB to Mark ... who spent the first 9 years of his 22 year career with a terrible Tampa Bay team, and then, Cleveland. His 1st year in Baltimore, he went to the Pro Bowl after throwing for over 4000 yards and 33 TDs, neither feat Rypien ever accomplished. If you had put Testaverde in Rypien's position with the Redskins, he might have become the all time greatest Redskin QB.

To put things into perspective, Testaverde threw for over 2000 yards 6 times .... over 3000 yards 5 times, and 4000 yards 1 time. Rypien threw for over 2000 yards 1 time, 3000 yards 3 times, and 4000 yards never.

Testaverde's career numbers DWARF Rypien's. Mark was just fortunate enough to be on a very dominant team coached by Joe Gibbs, with an offensive line that in 1991 (Ryps best year) gave up only 7 sacks in 16 games. SEVEN SACKS !!!

Between 1989-1991 Rypien was sacked a total of 29 times in THREE SEASONS (40 Games). That's pass protection! We also had a pretty good defense too.

So situations do have an affect on the success or failure of drafted QBs. And I think that plays a larger role than many consider when evaluating success and failures of top drafted QBs ... with many finding themselves stuck for the first 5 years of their careers on terrible teams with little actual possibility to succeed.

[skinsfan#33]

So what you're saying is all you expect from the 1st overall pick in his sixth or seventh season is a good performance, like Rex with out some of the turn overs?

WOW! You're easy to please.

Alex Smith is a BUST. Let me repeat that, he is a bust that is bennifitting from what may be the Coach of the Year in Jim Harbaugh.

No, that's not what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that perhaps in his first 5 years, he may have been trapped in a no win situation. Now that he has a team around him, including a good defense that keeps the 49er offense from having to score 35 points to win a game, he's more able to perform at a high level. And if he's benefiting from being coached by Harbaugh, what's wrong with that? Isn't that what coaches are supposed to do? Put their players in a position to be successful?

Right now, Smith is 10th place among QBs in the NFL based on QB rating. Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Romo, Schaub, Stafford, Roethlisberger, Ryan, and E. Manning comprise 1-9. They have pretty good teams too, and maybe even make their teams better?

So no, he cannot be considered a bust now ... one good year doesn't make him great, but right now, he's certainly worked his way out of the bust category.

You can't, but I can. For a #1 overall pick to have 5 bad years and then one slightly above average year on a very good team, that my friend is a BUST!

Yes, that is a bust. Gus Frerotte went to the PB too and played a lot of years and could have won a SB with the 2000 Ravens. For a 7th round pick, Gus is a value. For a top ten pick...

Bust!

OK, I won't go as far as to call him a bust. No wait let me think about that...

He had one winning record as a starting QB in his first 11 season. If he was a 6th round pick (Rypien) and made 2 PB (like Mark the Ryper) and took 12 seasons to get to his second season with a starting winning record, then he wouldn't be a bust, but since he was #1 overall...

Bust! I changed my mind.

I don't know what you're smoking, but it's got to be good. If ever there was a QB that benefited from a strong team, it would be Mark Rypien. Mark was an awkward, rather clumsy fellow that wasn't very athletic, but had accuracy, and a great long ball. Out of 11 years, he had three excellent seasons on a DOMINANT Redskin team .... the other 8 years, his QB rating was in the 60's and 70's, and very average.

Testaverde was a FAR SUPERIOR QB to Mark ... who spent the first 9 years of his 22 year career with a terrible Tampa Bay team, and then, Cleveland. His 1st year in Baltimore, he went to the Pro Bowl after throwing for over 4000 yards and 33 TDs, neither feat Rypien ever accomplished. If you had put Testaverde in Rypien's position with the Redskins, he might have become the all time greatest Redskin QB.

To put things into perspective, Testaverde threw for over 2000 yards 6 times .... over 3000 yards 5 times, and 4000 yards 1 time. Rypien threw for over 2000 yards 1 time, 3000 yards 3 times, and 4000 yards never.

Testaverde's career numbers DWARF Rypien's. Mark was just fortunate enough to be on a very dominant team coached by Joe Gibbs, with an offensive line that in 1991 (Ryps best year) gave up only 7 sacks in 16 games. SEVEN SACKS !!!

Between 1989-1991 Rypien was sacked a total of 29 times in THREE SEASONS (40 Games). That's pass protection! We also had a pretty good defense too.

So situations do have an affect on the success or failure of drafted QBs. And I think that plays a larger role than many consider when evaluating success and failures of top drafted QBs ... with many finding themselves stuck for the first 5 years of their careers on terrible teams with little actual possibility to succeed.

I agree with most of what you wrote except all of the speculative parts. I wasn't saying Rypien was better than Testiclehurty, I was merely pointing out that going to the PB (or not) is no indication of how good a player is. I used Mark as an example of an average QB (in a great situation) that went to two PBs.

I guess Vinny only found himself in a great situation twice.

Some of the bigger numbers he put up over Rypien were a factor of talent and some were from playing in a different era and some was the fact that he was on a Joe Gibbs run first, run second, team that would back off an opponent as soon as they got a two TD lead.

AND AGAIN Vinny was a #1 overall pick, while Rypien was a 6th round pick. MUCH MORE is expected of the 1st overall pick than there is of a 6th rounder!

And if you count Vinny a success, why not Jeff George? To me they are both failures! Not because they weren't talented, but because they didn't live up to their draft status.

By the way, Rypien was sacked 7 time in 91 (1.6% of passing attempts) but the 91 OL gave up 9 sacks. Jeff Rutledge played the second half of the last game and took two sacks (10.8%/pass).

If you don't like stats (that help prove QBs greatly impact sacks allowed) stop reading now!

Rypien during his carreer was good at not taking sacks. He was sacked 3.6%/pass attempt. His time in Wash was a 3.6 ave. Worst season was his rookie season at 6.3 (that same year Doug Williams was sacked at a 2.6% rate. MR's next year he improved to 3.3% (DW was 2.1%). MR's last year in DC was his worst since his rookie campain at a 4.8%, but the other two QBs that played that year were horrendous at 11.3% (Rich Gannon) and 8.4% (Cary Conklin). His first year after the Skins he was a backup to Vinny Testiverte on the 94 Browns. VT was sacked 3.1% to MR's 1.5%. Next year MR went to the Rams and backed up Chris Miller who was sacked at a rate of 7.1% while MR took only 4.8%.

I say that not just to bore you but to prove that the QB plays a big part in how many sacks a OL gives up. Vinny Testiverte is a carreer 5.9% guy, he took more sacks than MR did.

To put this in current terms. Rex has been sacked at a 5.5% rate, while JB was sacked at a 10.8% rate.

[welch]

I rise to disagree with the gentleman from Austin. Vinny Testaverde was a chump from the day he stepped into the NFL. Strong arm, no judgement, perpetually bad QB.

Mark Rypien looked awkward and took the hits and completed the big passes in the most importanmt games. Good enough that Beathard and Gibbs felt comfortable trading former pro-bowl kid Jay Schroeder. (Watch the films from SB 22: that's Rypien in the white Redskin sweater standing next to Gibbs...who knew he could go into the next season with Doug Williams and Rypien.

Remember the giant throws: a pass to Clark in the first Giants game in '91 that killed the Giants. Or the passes in the first half of SB 26, under pressure from the Bills all-all-star defense.

Count the playoff wins. Then think of the guys who have played QB for the Redskins since.

Rypien was better than any of them.

[RayNAustin]

I rise to disagree with the gentleman from Austin. Vinny Testaverde was a chump from the day he stepped into the NFL. Strong arm, no judgement, perpetually bad QB.

Mark Rypien looked awkward and took the hits and completed the big passes in the most importanmt games. Good enough that Beathard and Gibbs felt comfortable trading former pro-bowl kid Jay Schroeder. (Watch the films from SB 22: that's Rypien in the white Redskin sweater standing next to Gibbs...who knew he could go into the next season with Doug Williams and Rypien.

Remember the giant throws: a pass to Clark in the first Giants game in '91 that killed the Giants. Or the passes in the first half of SB 26, under pressure from the Bills all-all-star defense.

Count the playoff wins. Then think of the guys who have played QB for the Redskins since.

Rypien was better than any of them.

You may disagree with me, but Testaverde's career stats would argue with you.

7th (All Time) in passing yards (46,233) (Elway - 4th - 52,475)
9th (All Time) passing TDs (275) (Elway - 5th -300)
6th (All Time) game winning drives (33) (Elway - 4th - 40)
4th (All Time) come backs (29) (Elway - 3rd - 31)
6th (All Time) in total offense (Elway - 4th)

Now, I'm not suggesting that Testaverde was comparable to Elway in either talent or accomplishments. I just put Elway's relative stats there to show that Testaverde did put up some impressive figures, which hardly qualifies him to be considered a "chump".

[welch]

Career stats just indicate that Vinny hung around for a long time. We saw him. He bounced from team to team because he had a strong arm ("we'll make him useful") but weak football brain.

Rypien, consider, went head-to-head against Stan Humphries in '90 and '91. Humphries was the future, the quick-release, strong arm, tough, agile QB with all the talent. Rypien studied the playbook, worked hard, and won the job in training camp in '91.

"Mark knows the offense better than I do", said Joe Gibbs.

How do Vinny's stats compare to Sonny's? Can stats make an argument by themselves?

Consider this argument for Sonny: "Jurgensen is a great quarterback. He hangs in there under adverse conditions. He may be the best the league has ever seen.

He is the best I have seen."

That's Lombardi.

Then there was Joe Gibbs, broadcasting a Browns playoff. Tight game at the end of the half, and Vinny was playing while Rypien watched. Gibbs said, approximately, "This is a playoff. I would have Mark Rypien start the second half...there's no doubt". Remember that Gibbs was as cautious and neutral in his public judgements as anyone ever around the NFL.

(Note, also, that Vinny played so long that he benefited from all of the "enhance the passing" rule changes that make the shotgun almost the standard formation. Rypien played against Lawrence Taylor's Giants and the Buddy-Ball Eagles twice a season. Brutal.

[skinsfan#33]

I rise to disagree with the gentleman from Austin. Vinny Testaverde was a chump from the day he stepped into the NFL. Strong arm, no judgement, perpetually bad QB.

Mark Rypien looked awkward and took the hits and completed the big passes in the most importanmt games. Good enough that Beathard and Gibbs felt comfortable trading former pro-bowl kid Jay Schroeder. (Watch the films from SB 22: that's Rypien in the white Redskin sweater standing next to Gibbs...who knew he could go into the next season with Doug Williams and Rypien.

Remember the giant throws: a pass to Clark in the first Giants game in '91 that killed the Giants. Or the passes in the first half of SB 26, under pressure from the Bills all-all-star defense.

Count the playoff wins. Then think of the guys who have played QB for the Redskins since.

Rypien was better than any of them.

You may disagree with me, but Testaverde's career stats would argue with you.

7th (All Time) in passing yards (46,233) (Elway - 4th - 52,475)
9th (All Time) passing TDs (275) (Elway - 5th -300)
6th (All Time) game winning drives (33) (Elway - 4th - 40)
4th (All Time) come backs (29) (Elway - 3rd - 31)
6th (All Time) in total offense (Elway - 4th)

Now, I'm not suggesting that Testaverde was comparable to Elway in either talent or accomplishments. I just put Elway's relative stats there to show that Testaverde did put up some impressive figures, which hardly qualifies him to be considered a "chump".

Good list Ray but it is mostly a byproduct of the fact that VT played 22 years, a feat which is probably VT biggest accomplishment. Here is another accomplishment that he made because of playing 22 years, he is 4th all time in throwing picks!

However, I would like to compare his career to two former Redskins that are more independent of the length of time he has played. (Bolded for worst of the three). underlined for best

VT's Career #s
 QB rating 105th
 INT% 122nd
 Yds/Pass 102nd
 TD % 117th
 Comp % 99th

Mark Rypien's Career #s
 QB rating 68th
 INT% 71st
 Yds/Pass 59th
 TD % 82nd
 Comp % 109th

Jason Campbell's Career #s
 QB rating 32nd
 INT% 6th
 Yds/Pass 60th
 TD % 185st
 Comp % 25th

Those were historical career number ranked against all QBs. Here is an important one that I couldn’t find a ranking for.

Career winning %
 VT 42%
 MR 60%
 JC 45%

Based on the numbers I provided you could make a case that JC and MR were better QBs. If either JC or MR had been the first pick in the draft they would have been considered bust. Heck JC was a bust at #25 overall.

Again Testaverde was a BUST!!!

[SkinsJock]

Last year, the Redskins desperately needed a quarterback. When their pick came up, Blaine Gabbert was available, instead, they traded down and got Ryan Kerrigan...
Say that scenario comes up next April. There's a QB there for the taking but someone else is on the board that could help. Would you rather we reach on a QB or draft the best available?

To answer your question - perhaps we should wait to see where we are drafting PLUS which free agent QB we get

I believe they will take the BPA (that suits) ONLY if they cannot find a way to get Andrew Luck or Robert Griffin III

HOWEVER ...... this FO will NOT take a WR or RB with a top 10 pick

[RayNAustin]

Based on the numbers I provided you could make a case that JC and MR were better QBs. If either JC or MR had been the first pick in the draft they would have been considered bust. Heck JC was a bust at #25 overall.

Again Testaverde was a BUST!!!

ROTFLMAO ... what part of playing 22 years in the NFL escapes your analysis here?

First of all, I'm not ripping Rypien. He had a lot of success with the Redskins and took advantage of his opportunities ... but lets be REAL. After the Redskins team was rather depleted of the power house talent it once had, and Joe Gibbs retired, Rypien's last two years (1992-1993) as a Redskin were TERRIBLE. In 1992, he finished with 13 TD, 17 ints, and a QB rating of 71. In his final 12 games in 1993, he had a QB rating of 56 ... with 4 TDs and 10 ints. He was let go, and bounced from Cleveland to St Louis to Philly back to St Louis to Indy. During that 7 year stretch between 1994-2001 he started a grand total of 6 games in 7 years combined with 3 different teams, reflecting similar performances to his last two years with the Redskins. So, again I'll say that a large portion of Rypien's success with the Redskins was due to him being surrounded by a power house, dominant team ..... dominant offensive line, dominant running game, dominant receivers, and a dominant defense (and a dominant coach). BUT, put Rypien on the Tampa Bay team Testaverde had to work with, and Rypien might not have made it to his 5th year in the NFL, and he certainly wouldn't have had those 4 good years that made his career with the Redskins.

Like I said before, Quarterbacks can either be beneficiaries of good teams or be victims of poor teams, which probably explains why many talented prospects wind up failing at the NFL level. Very few QBs come along that can overcome poor talent around them like the great ones do ... Elway as an example, carried the Broncos on his shoulders many years. But not many players come along with that ability. And just because you aren't an Elway, doesn't make you a bust. He was he exception, not the rule.

A classic case of a mediocre talent benefiting from a powerhouse team is HOF-Terry Bradshaw! Bradshaw (who was also a number 1 overall pick) was horrible ... terrifically ... unimaginatively so horrendous, that for his first 5 years in Pittsburgh, the fans didn't want to sign him to another contract, they wanted to take a contract out on him! It wasn't until his 6th season that he actually threw more TDs than interceptions. From 1970-1974 Bradshaw's QB rating was in the 50's ... and he collectively threw 48 TDs and 91 ints. In his first year in 1970, he threw 6 TDs and 24 Ints. And in 1972, 73 and 74, the Steelers were a dominant team.

By contrast, Testaverde spent his first 10 years on lousy teams, Tampa and Cleveland, and then Baltimore. It wasn't until his 12th season did he wind up on a decent team (1998 NYJ). His 1st Pro Bowl came in 1996, when he passed for 4,177 yards, 33 TDs and 19 ints .... and that was on a 4-12 Ravens team. WHAT? 4-12? With a Pro Bowl QB? They must have been REALLY, REALLY REALLY bad .... not many QBs go to the Pro Bowl playing for a 4-12 team ... and not many teams can go 4-12 with that type of offensive production.

My point is, Testaverde played the majority of his career on lousy teams lacking talent. Those times when there was talent around him, he put up some extremely good numbers ... the other times, he put up numbers few other QBs would have been able to do under his circumstances.

Mark Rypien would have been selling insurance in his 5th year if he'd spent the first 4 years in Tampa Bay. Terry Bradshaw would have suffered a tragic, drive by shooting death from one of the fans.

[Kilmer72]

Based on the numbers I provided you could make a case that JC and MR were better QBs. If either JC or MR had been the first pick in the draft they would have been considered bust. Heck JC was a bust at #25 overall.

Again Testaverde was a BUST!!!

ROTFLMAO ... what part of playing 22 years in the NFL escapes your analysis here?

First of all, I'm not ripping Rypien. He had a lot of success with the Redskins and took advantage of his opportunities ... but lets be REAL. After the Redskins team was rather depleted of the power house talent it once had, and Joe Gibbs retired, Rypien's last two years (1992-1993) as a Redskin were TERRIBLE. In 1992, he finished with 13 TD, 17 ints, and a QB rating of 71. In his final 12 games in 1993, he had a QB rating of 56 ... with 4 TDs and 10 ints. He was let go, and bounced from Cleveland to St Louis to Philly back to St Louis to Indy. During that 7 year stretch between 1994-2001 he started a grand total of 6 games in 7 years combined with 3 different teams, reflecting similar performances to his last two years with the Redskins. So, again I'll say that a large portion of Rypien's success with the Redskins was due to him being surrounded by a power house, dominant team ..... dominant offensive line, dominant running game, dominant receivers, and a dominant defense (and a dominant coach). BUT, put Rypien on the Tampa Bay team Testaverde had to work with, and Rypien might not have made it to his 5th year in the NFL, and he certainly wouldn't have had those 4 good years that made his career with the Redskins.

Like I said before, Quarterbacks can either be beneficiaries of good teams or be victims of poor teams, which probably explains why many talented prospects wind up failing at the NFL level. Very few QBs come along that can overcome poor talent around them like the great ones do ... Elway as an example, carried the Broncos on his shoulders many years. But not many players come along with that ability. And just because you aren't an Elway, doesn't make you a bust. He was he exception, not the rule.

A classic case of a mediocre talent benefiting from a powerhouse team is HOF-Terry Bradshaw! Bradshaw (who was also a number 1 overall pick) was horrible ... terrifically ... unimaginatively so horrendous, that for his first 5 years in Pittsburgh, the fans didn't want to sign him to another contract, they wanted to take a contract out on him! It wasn't until his 6th season that he actually threw more TDs than interceptions. From 1970-1974 Bradshaw's QB rating was in the 50's ... and he collectively threw 48 TDs and 91 ints. In his first year in 1970, he threw 6 TDs and 24 Ints. And in 1972, 73 and 74, the Steelers were a dominant team.

By contrast, Testaverde spent his first 10 years on lousy teams, Tampa and Cleveland, and then Baltimore. It wasn't until his 12th season did he wind up on a decent team (1998 NYJ). His 1st Pro Bowl came in 1996, when he passed for 4,177 yards, 33 TDs and 19 ints .... and that was on a 4-12 Ravens team. WHAT? 4-12? With a Pro Bowl QB? They must have been REALLY, REALLY REALLY bad .... not many QBs go to the Pro Bowl playing for a 4-12 team ... and not many teams can go 4-12 with that type of offensive production.

My point is, Testaverde played the majority of his career on lousy teams lacking talent. Those times when there was talent around him, he put up some extremely good numbers ... the other times, he put up numbers few other QBs would have been able to do under his circumstances.

Mark Rypien would have been selling insurance in his 5th year if he'd spent the first 4 years in Tampa Bay. Terry Bradshaw would have suffered a tragic, drive by shooting death from one of the fans.

Testaverde went through the same things Doug Williams did.

[RayNAustin]

Based on the numbers I provided you could make a case that JC and MR were better QBs. If either JC or MR had been the first pick in the draft they would have been considered bust. Heck JC was a bust at #25 overall.

Again Testaverde was a BUST!!!

ROTFLMAO ... what part of playing 22 years in the NFL escapes your analysis here?

First of all, I'm not ripping Rypien. He had a lot of success with the Redskins and took advantage of his opportunities ... but lets be REAL. After the Redskins team was rather depleted of the power house talent it once had, and Joe Gibbs retired, Rypien's last two years (1992-1993) as a Redskin were TERRIBLE. In 1992, he finished with 13 TD, 17 ints, and a QB rating of 71. In his final 12 games in 1993, he had a QB rating of 56 ... with 4 TDs and 10 ints. He was let go, and bounced from Cleveland to St Louis to Philly back to St Louis to Indy. During that 7 year stretch between 1994-2001 he started a grand total of 6 games in 7 years combined with 3 different teams, reflecting similar performances to his last two years with the Redskins. So, again I'll say that a large portion of Rypien's success with the Redskins was due to him being surrounded by a power house, dominant team ..... dominant offensive line, dominant running game, dominant receivers, and a dominant defense (and a dominant coach). BUT, put Rypien on the Tampa Bay team Testaverde had to work with, and Rypien might not have made it to his 5th year in the NFL, and he certainly wouldn't have had those 4 good years that made his career with the Redskins.

Like I said before, Quarterbacks can either be beneficiaries of good teams or be victims of poor teams, which probably explains why many talented prospects wind up failing at the NFL level. Very few QBs come along that can overcome poor talent around them like the great ones do ... Elway as an example, carried the Broncos on his shoulders many years. But not many players come along with that ability. And just because you aren't an Elway, doesn't make you a bust. He was he exception, not the rule.

A classic case of a mediocre talent benefiting from a powerhouse team is HOF-Terry Bradshaw! Bradshaw (who was also a number 1 overall pick) was horrible ... terrifically ... unimaginatively so horrendous, that for his first 5 years in Pittsburgh, the fans didn't want to sign him to another contract, they wanted to take a contract out on him! It wasn't until his 6th season that he actually threw more TDs than interceptions. From 1970-1974 Bradshaw's QB rating was in the 50's ... and he collectively threw 48 TDs and 91 ints. In his first year in 1970, he threw 6 TDs and 24 Ints. And in 1972, 73 and 74, the Steelers were a dominant team.

By contrast, Testaverde spent his first 10 years on lousy teams, Tampa and Cleveland, and then Baltimore. It wasn't until his 12th season did he wind up on a decent team (1998 NYJ). His 1st Pro Bowl came in 1996, when he passed for 4,177 yards, 33 TDs and 19 ints .... and that was on a 4-12 Ravens team. WHAT? 4-12? With a Pro Bowl QB? They must have been REALLY, REALLY REALLY bad .... not many QBs go to the Pro Bowl playing for a 4-12 team ... and not many teams can go 4-12 with that type of offensive production.

My point is, Testaverde played the majority of his career on lousy teams lacking talent. Those times when there was talent around him, he put up some extremely good numbers ... the other times, he put up numbers few other QBs would have been able to do under his circumstances.

Mark Rypien would have been selling insurance in his 5th year if he'd spent the first 4 years in Tampa Bay. Terry Bradshaw would have suffered a tragic, drive by shooting death from one of the fans.

Testaverde went through the same things Doug Williams did.

Exactly.

[The Hogster]

Testaverde was not a bust. He was not a great QB, but he was not a bust. Winning the Heisman raises expectations, but you don't get to play 22 years if you're not a good player. He had a couple of good years with the NYJ. And, he did well with the Baltimore Ravens back in the 90s. He played on some pretty poor teams, so it's hard to say what he was capable of doing if he played for say the Jets under Parcells for his whole career.

[Redskin in Canada]

There is some speculation surrounding the future of Mark Sanchez with the Jets. He might be traded in the next few months as a result of their record this 2011 season (scapegoat?). This situation will only become more clearly apparent if they fail to make the playoffs this weekend. I do not feel that the Jets will make the playoffs. So ...

... if the price is right, I say TAKE HIM !!!

[Irn-Bru]

There is some speculation surrounding the future of Mark Sanchez with the Jets. He might be traded in the next few months as a result of their record this 2011 season (scapegoat?). This situation will only become more clearly apparent if they fail to make the playoffs this weekend. I do not feel that the Jets will make the playoffs. So ...

... if the price is right, I say TAKE HIM !!!

I agree. The way I see it, if the Redskins can land Luck, RGIII, or Jones in the draft or Bradford or Sanchez in a trade (both have potential), it would be an offseason victory for us.

I am hoping for one of them, and hoping maybe another legit name or two gets thrown in the mix.

[skinsfan#33]

Speaking of busts, I don't want anything to do with Sanchez. Once you get past the Jets success under Rex and you get past Sanchez' name recognition and actually look at his productivity you realizes her ain't much of an improvement over Grossman.

If at all.

[skinsfan#33]

Testaverde was not a bust. He was not a great QB, but he was not a bust. Winning the Heisman raises expectations, but you don't get to play 22 years if you're not a good player. He had a couple of good years with the NYJ. And, he did well with the Baltimore Ravens back in the 90s. He played on some pretty poor teams, so it's hard to say what he was capable of doing if he played for say the Jets under Parcells for his whole career.

Hogster,
I never said he wasn't a good player. Heck paying 22 years on the NFL is a huge accomplishment, but that is the problem, that was his biggest accomplishment.

Maybe I have tougher standards for the #1 over all pick. With that pick I expect a great player. A player worthy of HoF consideration when they're done. VT was a good player AND in my opinion a bust a well.

You can be a goods player and still be a bust IMHO. To me VT was a bust. In his first eleven years as a starter he has one winning season. A #1 OVER ALL QB you expect he will help the franchise that drafts him become good, if not great. VT didn't do that.

I know he played for a bunch of pretty bad teams, but he wasn't a difference maker. He never helped make a bad team good.

He was a good player, but when you pick a QB that high "good" isn't good enough!

To me he its a bust, just like Mark Sanchez has become!

[SkinsJock]

Sanchez would help here ... hell, there are a lot of QBs that would help this offense