Post Game - Redskins- Giants

[CanesSkins26]

Further, very few hot dog college QBs have turned out to be "franchise" QBs in the NFL. So says a person who grew up with Sonny (4th rounder?) and looked up the BW Parkway at Johnny Unitas (picked from the scrap heap), and remembers Joe Theismann and Joe Montana ("weak arm...lucky to have played for powerful schools").

Ob. But outside of Tom Brady, how many non-first or second round qbs have won the Super Bowl in the last 10-15 seasons? Even Trent Dilfer, who stunk, was a top 10 pick.

Since the Skins last won in 1991:

Rodgers - 1st round
Brees - 2nd round
Big Ben (2 wins) - 1st round
E. Manning - 1st round
P. Manning - 1st round
Tom Brady (3 wins) - 6th round
Brad Johnson - 9th round
Trent Dilfer - 1st round
Warner - UFA
Elway (2 wins) - 1st round
Bret Favre - 2nd round
Troy Aikman (3 wins) - 1st round
Steve Young - 1st round (supplemental)

So out of the last 19 super bowls, 14 were won by players drafted in the first or second round of the draft.

[Red_One43]

At first I was annoyed that we were losing draft position, but then I remembered what Antrel Rolle said about us only beating the Giants 5 out of 100 times.

It's possible we win out, and if we do, it'll probably cost us a top QB prospect. I want Landry Jones anyway, think we could still snag him if we went 8-8?

He sucks.....I'll take RG III

There's a very, very, very high probability that RGIII will be a Redskin next year.Rex Grossman 3rd year that is

[Red_One43]

During his presser today, Mike said that after Rex threw the two picks, we went conservative with our play calling and turned to the run.

My guess that in the Patriot game, Mike started acting like a father and started schooling Kyle on the tenets of the run game and in this game, Daddy too the reins from the son until he really started listening.

Yesterday, was Mike Shannahan football which is what we thought we were getting when he was hired. Players play harder when they know who their leaders is.

"We will get that running game back, I promise you," Shanahan said Thursday. "I've been doing it over 20 years, and that's our trademark. ...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=a ... owstarters

[Kilmer72]

Knowing that we helped the Cowboys in a meaningless game does gnaw at my soul.

Meaningless game?

You are correct in saying it was not meaningless. There were two concrete, objective outcomes:

1. Worsening of the Redskins draft position, which will likely either cost the team's QB of choice or make acquiring that player more expensive

2. Placing the Cowboys in control of the NFC East

The Redskin's draft position will likely be outside the top 5 picks, and to be honest, I'd prefer to see us win the last two games and push us to the #8, #9, #10 position. Why? Because if we wind up #6, we might just gamble that Barkley or RGIII will fall to us, only to have miscalculated, and have both taken ahead of us, forcing us to make another gamble with one of the other available QBs.

Some might argue that Jones would be a good pick, and that could be true, but the better money is on the top three, and we really must get one of them.

My view (and I'm sure that's clear now) is that we trade up as HIGH as we can, preferably to get Luck, because even though he would be the most costly in terms of what we'll have to give up to get him, he's the one that is most assured of being a true franchise level QB that will be one of the best over the next 10+ years. Barkely and RGIII may also be good ones, but Luck still blows them away in terms of the qualities most defining a successful NFL QB. In other words, he's most likely to be "Kyle Shanahan" proof.

The kid has extraordinary football intelligence that the other two guys don't possess, and the accuracy of throwing that makes him a better prospect than most that have come along over the past decade, or will likely show up over the next decade. The guy is simply as flawless as he could be, and given our misadventures at QB already (i.e. McNabb, Grossman, Beck and the shuffling and reshuffling), I trust his proven ability more than I trust the Shanahans shaky skills at evaluating QB talent.

My philosophy is simple .... eliminate as much as possible the chance of picking the wrong guy, by leaving no stone unturned in going after the best prospect regardless of cost.

An Aaron Rogers, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees type QB is worth 4-#1 picks, when you look at what Peyton Manning has done for the Colts over the past 14 years. PERIOD. Is Luck a guaranteed Peyton Manning? No ... but he fits the potential better than anything available this year or in the last several years.

Roll the dice baby .... the biggest payoffs tend to involve the biggest risks and the highest costs .... you gotta break a few eggs to make a Super Bowl omelet !

I like your approach. My second scenario would be if we can't get Luck because of cost then we should try to get Peyton for much less and not give up any picks this year (the 2012 draft). This assumes Peyton is healthy and we don't give up more than a #1 in 2013.

I would fear if we did get P Manning that we would try to fit a square peg in a round hole. P Manning is old and he is used to one offense at this point. Just like Dnabb. I know Dnabb isn't any P Manning but we could have changed our offense when we realized that he wasn't going to change for us. This is why the Eagles had to make their offense something he could deal with. I said this last year. I went on their sites and asked why he couldn't do a better job for us. They basically said this was why they wanted him out. He limited them in their offense. I should go back on one day and ask what they think of M Vick these days.

[riggofan]

Correct. If the Redskins have a 6 point lead in the fourth quarter and are kicking off with 2 minutes left to one of the above guys, I'm sweating bullets. Same situation with Eli on the opposite sideline, I'm pretty comfortable (lucky Super Bowl win notwithstanding).

What are you talking about man? Eli Manning has led SIX fourth quarter comebacks this season alone. He won't win it, but he's constantly mentioned as a possible league MVP this season. 4000+ yards, 25 TDs.

The guy has been a starter for SEVEN YEARS. I'm no fan, but yeah, the G-Men have a freaking franchise QB.

[Kilmer72]

Correct. If the Redskins have a 6 point lead in the fourth quarter and are kicking off with 2 minutes left to one of the above guys, I'm sweating bullets. Same situation with Eli on the opposite sideline, I'm pretty comfortable (lucky Super Bowl win notwithstanding).

What are you talking about man? Eli Manning has led SIX fourth quarter comebacks this season alone. He won't win it, but he's constantly mentioned as a possible league MVP this season. 4000+ yards, 25 TDs.

The guy has been a starter for SEVEN YEARS. I'm no fan, but yeah, the G-Men have a freaking franchise QB.

I think this speaks highly of our DEFENSE!!! Also does for the run game. Even if we didn't get many yards running we did run well enough and kept our D fresh. Maybe next year we can actually try to run more often every game. I know when you fall behind you have to try to pass more to catch up so they say. I say keep running even if you just get a a few yards here and there because the offense needs the play action to succeed. Best way to deal with Eli is keep him off the field.

[welch]

Further, very few hot dog college QBs have turned out to be "franchise" QBs in the NFL. So says a person who grew up with Sonny (4th rounder?) and looked up the BW Parkway at Johnny Unitas (picked from the scrap heap), and remembers Joe Theismann and Joe Montana ("weak arm...lucky to have played for powerful schools").

Ob. But outside of Tom Brady, how many non-first or second round qbs have won the Super Bowl in the last 10-15 seasons? Even Trent Dilfer, who stunk, was a top 10 pick.

Since the Skins last won in 1991:

Rodgers - 1st round
Brees - 2nd round
Big Ben (2 wins) - 1st round
E. Manning - 1st round
P. Manning - 1st round
Tom Brady (3 wins) - 6th round
Brad Johnson - 9th round
Trent Dilfer - 1st round
Warner - UFA
Elway (2 wins) - 1st round
Bret Favre - 2nd round
Troy Aikman (3 wins) - 1st round
Steve Young - 1st round (supplemental)

So out of the last 19 super bowls, 14 were won by players drafted in the first or second round of the draft.

And how many 1st round QBs have flopped? How many Heisman QB's have succeeded in the NFL? Elway was the glorious hero-of-heroes who lost three consecutive SB's. Jim Kelley did the same, or maybe lost four in a row...I can't remember.

Looking the other direction: Rex Grossman was a first round pick and was a big deal. Look back: who was the number one pick in 1999? Anybody remember Tim Couch? Who was second overall in 1998? Moving on, who remembers Patrick Ramsey or Vince Young?

Putting it another way: many whiz-bang college QBs don't make it.

[welch]

Further, very few hot dog college QBs have turned out to be "franchise" QBs in the NFL. So says a person who grew up with Sonny (4th rounder?) and looked up the BW Parkway at Johnny Unitas (picked from the scrap heap), and remembers Joe Theismann and Joe Montana ("weak arm...lucky to have played for powerful schools").

Ob. But outside of Tom Brady, how many non-first or second round qbs have won the Super Bowl in the last 10-15 seasons? Even Trent Dilfer, who stunk, was a top 10 pick.

Since the Skins last won in 1991:

Rodgers - 1st round
Brees - 2nd round
Big Ben (2 wins) - 1st round
E. Manning - 1st round
P. Manning - 1st round
Tom Brady (3 wins) - 6th round
Brad Johnson - 9th round
Trent Dilfer - 1st round
Warner - UFA
Elway (2 wins) - 1st round
Bret Favre - 2nd round
Troy Aikman (3 wins) - 1st round
Steve Young - 1st round (supplemental)

So out of the last 19 super bowls, 14 were won by players drafted in the first or second round of the draft.

And how many 1st round QBs have flopped? How many Heisman QB's have succeeded in the NFL? Elway was the glorious hero-of-heroes who lost three consecutive SB's. Jim Kelley did the same, or maybe lost four in a row...I can't remember.

Looking the other direction: Rex Grossman was a first round pick and was a big deal. Look back: who was the number one pick in 1999? Anybody remember Tim Couch? Who was second overall in 1998? Moving on, who remembers Patrick Ramsey or Vince Young?

Putting it another way: many whiz-bang college QBs don't make it.

[CanesSkins26]

Further, very few hot dog college QBs have turned out to be "franchise" QBs in the NFL. So says a person who grew up with Sonny (4th rounder?) and looked up the BW Parkway at Johnny Unitas (picked from the scrap heap), and remembers Joe Theismann and Joe Montana ("weak arm...lucky to have played for powerful schools").

Ob. But outside of Tom Brady, how many non-first or second round qbs have won the Super Bowl in the last 10-15 seasons? Even Trent Dilfer, who stunk, was a top 10 pick.

Since the Skins last won in 1991:

Rodgers - 1st round
Brees - 2nd round
Big Ben (2 wins) - 1st round
E. Manning - 1st round
P. Manning - 1st round
Tom Brady (3 wins) - 6th round
Brad Johnson - 9th round
Trent Dilfer - 1st round
Warner - UFA
Elway (2 wins) - 1st round
Bret Favre - 2nd round
Troy Aikman (3 wins) - 1st round
Steve Young - 1st round (supplemental)

So out of the last 19 super bowls, 14 were won by players drafted in the first or second round of the draft.

And how many 1st round QBs have flopped? How many Heisman QB's have succeeded in the NFL? Elway was the glorious hero-of-heroes who lost three consecutive SB's. Jim Kelley did the same, or maybe lost four in a row...I can't remember.

Looking the other direction: Rex Grossman was a first round pick and was a big deal. Look back: who was the number one pick in 1999? Anybody remember Tim Couch? Who was second overall in 1998? Moving on, who remembers Patrick Ramsey or Vince Young?

Putting it another way: many whiz-bang college QBs don't make it.

Every position has first round flops, that's just the way it is. But the bottom line is that in today's game it's very difficult to win without an elite qb, and it's quite difficult to find a franchise qb via trade, outside of the top 2 rounds, or free agency.

[welch]

My point: it is also very difficult to find a great QB in the 1st or 2nd rounds of the draft.

Basically, hard to find a great QB anylace, and most of the "franchise-QBs-to-be" are variations of Rex Grossman, or worse.

For an instance, what QBs were drafted with Aaron Rogers? Who was drafted ahead and who drafted just after him? Who knew?

[Note: Rogers was drafted 24th overall in 2005; Jason Campbell drafted 25th overall. That close.]

Maybe the Redskins will draft he best available player, rather than the best available QB. Maybe trade down and get two players.

I don't know, can't predict.

[Chris Luva Luva]

My point: it is also very difficult to find a great QB in the 1st or 2nd rounds of the draft.

Basically, hard to find a great QB anylace, and most of the "franchise-QBs-to-be" are variations of Rex Grossman, or worse.

For an instance, what QBs were drafted with Aaron Rogers? Who was drafted ahead and who drafted just after him? Who knew?

[Note: Rogers was drafted 24th overall in 2005; Jason Campbell drafted 25th overall. That close.]

Maybe the Redskins will draft he best available player, rather than the best available QB. Maybe trade down and get two players.

I don't know, can't predict.

I think it has A LOT to do with the circumstances the player is in. We could have drafted Rodgers, but he wouldn't be the player he is today. He wouldn't have benefited from consistency of being in one system. He wouldn't have learned from Brett. He would be shell shocked, confused and on his 10th HC.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But may we were close, maybe we had a great QB but he coudln't overcome the BS that involves this team.

[Countertrey]

Sorry, Chris... can't quite buy it based on the Rogers/Campbell comparison... there are two primary differences between those two players. Rogers is a student of the game, has tremendous football intelligence, and is blessed with a generous helping of the "It" factor. Campell never demonstrated an awareness of the game... and, despite many opportunities, never demonstrated the presence of "it"... which, I think, is one of those intangibles that can never be learned... you have it. Or you don't.

Frankly, I think that the lack of "it" is the reason most first round quarterback failures occur. They simply aren't wired to play the game on an NFL level. Campbell will never be more than a journeyman quarterback... and never would have been, regardless his circumstance. Aaron Rogers COULD have been ruined by the wrong circumstance... but the chances are, he'd have been fine, even here. He has "it".

[Chris Luva Luva]

Sorry, Chris... can't quite buy it based on the Rogers/Campbell comparison... there are two primary differences between those two players. Rogers is a student of the game, has tremendous football intelligence, and is blessed with a generous helping of the "It" factor. Campell never demonstrated an awareness of the game... and, despite many opportunities, never demonstrated the presence of "it"... which, I think, is one of those intangibles that can never be learned... you have it. Or you don't.

Frankly, I think that the lack of "it" is the reason most first round quarterback failures occur. They simply aren't wired to play the game on an NFL level. Campbell will never be more than a journeyman quarterback... and never would have been, regardless his circumstance. Aaron Rogers COULD have been ruined by the wrong circumstance... but the chances are, he'd have been fine, even here. He has "it".

"It" doesn't mean anything when your surrounding cast is garbage. In the mid-2000's after the Ravens lost their beef on the d-line. The media was saying that Ray Lewis lost a step, he was old, blah blah blah. Then the Ravens go and get Ngata and he's back to being Ray again. Even the greatest players are impacted by who is around them.

I'm not saying that JC could be Rogers. Hell, I didn't even mention his name. My only point is that regardless of who you get, if you do NOT put them in a position to succeed, you're limiting their production.

Regardless of what you think of JC, he could have been more successful in the right circumstance. He JUST proved that in Oakland. This franchise was a festering garbage pit when JC was here. That's changing now and whoever we get, hopefully they'll be able to enjoy consistency.

[StorminMormon86]

Every position has first round flops, that's just the way it is. But the bottom line is that in today's game it's very difficult to win without an elite qb, and it's quite difficult to find a franchise qb via trade, outside of the top 2 rounds, or free agency.

The 49ers are winning and I don't remember the last time "Alex Smith" and "elite" were used in the same sentence. When you do not have an elite guy, you conform your offense around the strengths of your QB. Did you see the game last night? Alex Smith looked like Dan Marino! That's simply because Harbaugh utilized his strengths by only calling the plays he knew Smith could pull off. Unfortunately I don't see that with the Redskins. Why we're still attempting to throw deep passes with Rex Grossman as our QB will always be a head scratcher to me. But yes, the odds are higher if we draft a QB in the 1st or 2nd round that he will be our future franchise QB.

[CanesSkins26]

Every position has first round flops, that's just the way it is. But the bottom line is that in today's game it's very difficult to win without an elite qb, and it's quite difficult to find a franchise qb via trade, outside of the top 2 rounds, or free agency.

The 49ers are winning and I don't remember the last time "Alex Smith" and "elite" were used in the same sentence. When you do not have an elite guy, you conform your offense around the strengths of your QB. Did you see the game last night? Alex Smith looked like Dan Marino! That's simply because Harbaugh utilized his strengths by only calling the plays he knew Smith could pull off. Unfortunately I don't see that with the Redskins. Why we're still attempting to throw deep passes with Rex Grossman as our QB will always be a head scratcher to me. But yes, the odds are higher if we draft a QB in the 1st or 2nd round that he will be our future franchise QB.

Alex Smith is more exception than the rule. And lets also not forget that he was the first overall pick in the 2005 draft, so it's not like the talent wasn't there with Smith before. I also want to see how he reacts when they play the Packers or Saints in the playoff and he has to throw the ball to keep them in the game.

[StorminMormon86]

say what - IF Grossman wasn't the turnover machine that most here know him to be, he'd be an OK QB

He is who he is - hopefully Grossman does not start any games for this franchise after the end of this season

You don't think we'd be in contention this year if Grossman wasn't averaging 2 turnovers a game? My point was simple: you do not need an elite QB to contend in the NFL. Maybe to make it to the dance and win it, but we could have made the playoffs this year easy (without Wrecks and his turnover magic). And I don't ever want to see Grossman take another snap with the burgundy and gold on, but that's another story all together.

[PAPDOG67]

First of all, Joe Flacco is not a franchise QB.

I beg to differ. If you don't think Flacco is, I could use the example of Mark Sanchez. I personally don't think Flacco or Sanchez are anything better than decent game managers, but that doesn't mean their respective teams don't think they are their franchise QB. Hell, if Grossman wasn't averaging 2 INTS per game, he could be the "game manager" that could take us to contention (granted if our defense played every game like they did against the Giants).

In NFL terms, "franchise QB" does not mean "QB who happens to play for a franchise". Flacco is an average QB in this league, Sanchez is below average and is a borderline bust at this point. Were they drafted with the hopes that they would become franchise QBs? Of course. So was Heath Shuler, for what that's worth.

In the NFL, the term "franchise QB" refers to an elite, gamechanging player who can serve as the cornerstone for an entire franchise; the type of player who positively effects play on both sides of the ball and who makes other players more valuable. The type of player who can win a game on his own even when his teammates don't perform at their best.

Current NFL franchise QBs include:

Rodgers
Stafford
Brees
Newton
Ryan (borderline)
Brady
Roethlisberger
P. Manning
Rivers

And that's it. One of them will be lifting the Lombardi trophy early next year, and it won't be a coincidence

You have Newton and Stafford in there but no Eli Manning??

Correct. If the Redskins have a 6 point lead in the fourth quarter and are kicking off with 2 minutes left to one of the above guys, I'm sweating bullets. Same situation with Eli on the opposite sideline, I'm pretty comfortable (lucky Super Bowl win notwithstanding).

You do realize that Eli has 14 4th quarter TDs this season correct? He also has a number of 4th quarter combacks....and if you want to go and call the SB win lucky go ahead. As far as I'm concerned he belongs on that list. Man, I can't believe you have me defending this clown.

[StorminMormon86]

Alex Smith is more exception than the rule. And lets also not forget that he was the first overall pick in the 2005 draft, so it's not like the talent wasn't there with Smith before. I also want to see how he reacts when they play the Packers or Saints in the playoff and he has to throw the ball to keep them in the game.

He may not have to throw the ball. The Chiefs kept the Packers contained exceptionally well. Do I smell another "outlier" a la Trent Dilfer in the making?

[riggofan]

I think it has A LOT to do with the circumstances the player is in. We could have drafted Rodgers, but he wouldn't be the player he is today. He wouldn't have benefited from consistency of being in one system. He wouldn't have learned from Brett. He would be shell shocked, confused and on his 10th HC.

Yeah I completely agree with this. I will be much more comfortable with the Skins drafting a first round QB in 2012 than I would have been in the past couple years. We've got some stability, an experienced coaching staff. The o-line is playing better, some running backs to take the pressure off, and a good looking defense to bail him out. Its looks like a much better situation for a rookie QB than we've had in a while.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I think it has A LOT to do with the circumstances the player is in. We could have drafted Rodgers, but he wouldn't be the player he is today. He wouldn't have benefited from consistency of being in one system. He wouldn't have learned from Brett. He would be shell shocked, confused and on his 10th HC.

Yeah I completely agree with this. I will be much more comfortable with the Skins drafting a first round QB in 2012 than I would have been in the past couple years. We've got some stability, an experienced coaching staff. The o-line is playing better, some running backs to take the pressure off, and a good looking defense to bail him out. Its looks like a much better situation for a rookie QB than we've had in a while.

In the past, we would have been asking a rookie QB to come in and with his skill, mask all of the deficiencies of the ENTIRE ORGANIZATION. We were asking QB's to mask offensive line problems, depth problems, short WR's, coaching carousels, scheme carousels, GM deficiencies....

With this organization. We're asking a rookie to come in and he'll be surrounded by talent. He's being placed in a situation that was prepared for him 2 years beforehand. Hankerson, Niles, Helu, Royster, Williams, etc. were drafted for him (not literally but u get the point). The scheme is THE SAME!! Much to the dismay to our Snyder-like-fanbase (many of which are on this board). The HC is the same, the GM is competent and we have NOT heard from Dan Snyder.

In regards to our Vets, the new QB will have Hightower, ey, possibly Davis and maybe even a premier #1 WR via FA. Maybe a Dwayne Bowe for example....


The difference is night and day.

[Redskin in Canada]

say what - IF Grossman wasn't the turnover machine that most here know him to be, he'd be an OK QB

He is who he is - hopefully Grossman does not start any games for this franchise after the end of this season

You don't think we'd be in contention this year if Grossman wasn't averaging 2 turnovers a game? My point was simple: you do not need an elite QB to contend in the NFL. Maybe to make it to the dance and win it, but we could have made the playoffs this year easy (without Wrecks and his turnover magic). And I don't ever want to see Grossman take another snap with the burgundy and gold on, but that's another story all together.

I do not see the disagreement among you and I also feel that Rex will never be a franchise QB for us or anybody else.

While all of us celebrate this victory, the INT column still grew and it still will do so before the end of the season.

[tribeofjudah]

Correct. If the Redskins have a 6 point lead in the fourth quarter and are kicking off with 2 minutes left to one of the above guys, I'm sweating bullets. Same situation with Eli on the opposite sideline, I'm pretty comfortable (lucky Super Bowl win notwithstanding).

What are you talking about man? Eli Manning has led SIX fourth quarter comebacks this season alone. He won't win it, but he's constantly mentioned as a possible league MVP this season. 4000+ yards, 25 TDs.

The guy has been a starter for SEVEN YEARS. I'm no fan, but yeah, the G-Men have a freaking franchise QB.

The Manning Brothers are FOR REAL.... I wonder what their "future sons" will be like....hahaha

[Burgundy&Wha?]

Correct. If the Redskins have a 6 point lead in the fourth quarter and are kicking off with 2 minutes left to one of the above guys, I'm sweating bullets. Same situation with Eli on the opposite sideline, I'm pretty comfortable (lucky Super Bowl win notwithstanding).

What are you talking about man? Eli Manning has led SIX fourth quarter comebacks this season alone. He won't win it, but he's constantly mentioned as a possible league MVP this season. 4000+ yards, 25 TDs.

The guy has been a starter for SEVEN YEARS. I'm no fan, but yeah, the G-Men have a freaking franchise QB.

The Manning Brothers are FOR REAL.... I wonder what their "future sons" will be like....hahaha

Rich!

[emoses14]

I think it has A LOT to do with the circumstances the player is in. We could have drafted Rodgers, but he wouldn't be the player he is today. He wouldn't have benefited from consistency of being in one system. He wouldn't have learned from Brett. He would be shell shocked, confused and on his 10th HC.

Yeah I completely agree with this. I will be much more comfortable with the Skins drafting a first round QB in 2012 than I would have been in the past couple years. We've got some stability, an experienced coaching staff. The o-line is playing better, some running backs to take the pressure off, and a good looking defense to bail him out. Its looks like a much better situation for a rookie QB than we've had in a while.

In the past, we would have been asking a rookie QB to come in and with his skill, mask all of the deficiencies of the ENTIRE ORGANIZATION. We were asking QB's to mask offensive line problems, depth problems, short WR's, coaching carousels, scheme carousels, GM deficiencies....

With this organization. We're asking a rookie to come in and he'll be surrounded by talent. He's being placed in a situation that was prepared for him 2 years beforehand. Hankerson, Niles, Helu, Royster, Williams, etc. were drafted for him (not literally but u get the point). The scheme is THE SAME!! Much to the dismay to our Snyder-like-fanbase (many of which are on this board). The HC is the same, the GM is competent and we have NOT heard from Dan Snyder.

In regards to our Vets, the new QB will have Hightower, ey, possibly Davis and maybe even a premier #1 WR via FA. Maybe a Dwayne Bowe for example....


The difference is night and day.

This point could not be any more accurate, in my opinion. NOT TO STIR UP HORNETS NEST THAT HAS BEEN STIRRED UP SO MUCH THAT ITS THE NORM, but JC's career simply is night and day different if he was drafted by any number of other organizations, especially the one that picked directly before us the year he was drafted. Hell, his career would be much different if he was drafted by this organization now. To paraphrase myself, the stench of *sh$t* that has been applied to this franchise by Snyderato will take years to come off. JC was dropped right into the middle of it, at its arguable worst, i.e. when we were applying the sweet cologne of Joe Gibbs 1.0 to it, only to find out it was just Gibbs 2.0.

JC was ruined by this organization, whether he was awful, average, good or great in his own right. Any inkling of IT that he might have had was irretrievably snuffed out by this team at that time.

[skinsfan#33]

I think it has A LOT to do with the circumstances the player is in. We could have drafted Rodgers, but he wouldn't be the player he is today. He wouldn't have benefited from consistency of being in one system. He wouldn't have learned from Brett. He would be shell shocked, confused and on his 10th HC.

Yeah I completely agree with this. I will be much more comfortable with the Skins drafting a first round QB in 2012 than I would have been in the past couple years. We've got some stability, an experienced coaching staff. The o-line is playing better, some running backs to take the pressure off, and a good looking defense to bail him out. Its looks like a much better situation for a rookie QB than we've had in a while.

In the past, we would have been asking a rookie QB to come in and with his skill, mask all of the deficiencies of the ENTIRE ORGANIZATION. We were asking QB's to mask offensive line problems, depth problems, short WR's, coaching carousels, scheme carousels, GM deficiencies....

With this organization. We're asking a rookie to come in and he'll be surrounded by talent. He's being placed in a situation that was prepared for him 2 years beforehand. Hankerson, Niles, Helu, Royster, Williams, etc. were drafted for him (not literally but u get the point). The scheme is THE SAME!! Much to the dismay to our Snyder-like-fanbase (many of which are on this board). The HC is the same, the GM is competent and we have NOT heard from Dan Snyder.

In regards to our Vets, the new QB will have Hightower, ey, possibly Davis and maybe even a premier #1 WR via FA. Maybe a Dwayne Bowe for example....


The difference is night and day.

This point could not be any more accurate, in my opinion. NOT TO STIR UP HORNETS NEST THAT HAS BEEN STIRRED UP SO MUCH THAT ITS THE NORM, but JC's career simply is
night and day different if he was drafted by any number of other organizations, especially the one that picked directly before us the year he was drafted. Hell, his career would be much different if he was drafted by this organization now. To paraphrase myself, the stench of *sh$t* that has been applied to this franchise by Snyderato will take years to come off. JC was dropped right into the middle of it, at its arguable worst, i.e. when we were applying the sweet cologne of Joe Gibbs 1.0 to it, only to find out it was just Gibbs 2.0.

JC was ruined by this organization, whether he was awful, average, good or great in his own right. Any inkling of IT that he might have had was irretrievably snuffed out by this team at that time.

Disagree with your two points. Jc was not ruined by this organization! He was drafted much higher than he should heave been. He is an average qb that has trouble hitting deep receivers and reading blitzes. He takes sacks he shouldn't and had a decent ol for most of his time in dc.

He may have had more success in a better situation, but so would Rex. JC would never have become a good QB and WAS NOT RUINED BY THE ORGANIZATION!

While with the Skins he played for two HC and started in two offensive systems, not the amount most people make it out to be.

Gibbs 2.0 was a success! Not the rousing success we expected but still a success. He had the team in the playoffs 2 out of the 4 seasons. Let me refresh your memory. In the 20 seasons since their last SB. The team has been to the playoffs 4 times in those 20 seasons and Gibbs was at the helm for 3 of them! He also has three of the five 9+ win seasons. This team would be much more relevant right now of Gibbs was still the coach.