Grossman v. Beck

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:51 am

Grossman has not shown that he's a capable starting QB

We need to draft a QB and find one to mentor him that can be a capable back-up later but ALSO - can start now

Grossman is NOT a starting QB

Kilmer72 · Post by **Kilmer72** » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:04 am

Just to let you know.... http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/re ... ory_1.html

there are things that I surely do not know and I have a sneaky suspicion that some of you aren't an expert either. I think what happens is people get this idea that Grossman really sucks. I say he is a very capable back up and might even prove us all wrong and win out. I doubt it, but just saying it is possible. Before he gets labeled a loser lets let him have at it ok? Whats the worse that can happen he throws an interception or 2 or 30 in one game? Bent Farvre is the only QB I ever watched that could throw 5 interceptions and still win. QBs do these things. Grossman just got labeled.

StorminMormon86 · Post by **StorminMormon86** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:14 am

Grossman should never take another snap in a Redskins uniform. Let Beck play out the rest of the season to see who the placeholder will be for our young QB.

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:27 am

Kilmer72 wrote:Just to let you know.... http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/re ... ory_1.html

there are things that I surely do not know and I have a sneaky suspicion that some of you aren't an expert either. I think what happens is people get this idea that Grossman really sucks. I say he is a very capable back up and might even prove us all wrong and win out. I doubt it, but just saying it is possible. Before he gets labeled a loser lets let him have at it ok? Whats the worse that can happen he throws an interception or 2 or 30 in one game? Bent Farvre is the only QB I ever watched that could throw 5 interceptions and still win. QBs do these things. Grossman just got labeled.

How much "having at it" do Kyle and Rex need, to satisfy your (remarkably still present) ability to make excuses for this disgusting pair? A nearly full season isn't enough? I will concede... Grossman got labeled. I will also note... he EARNED it. I was not on that train at the beginning of the season, but... I am SOLIDLY on the "Rex is an incompetent clod and needs to be swimming in the Potomac with his buddy, Kyle" train now.

All of us (with the probable exception of Rex Grossman and Kyle Shanahan) learn. Some (meaning "I") more slowly than others... but all of us learn. Fear not, Kilmer... you will be one of us soon enough.

His "I'm too cool for prime time" smile at the end of yesterday's debacle was obscene. He has no business in B&G. Period.

StorminMormon86 · Post by **StorminMormon86** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:56 am

There is a reason Rex got "labeled". There is a reason Chicago was more than willing to get rid of him, a QB who "accompanied" (I dare not say took) them to the Superbowl. He is a bad, inconsistent QB. How anyone (including teammates) can still defend him and be behind him is beyond me. They can talk about his "leadership" and his "swagger" on the field all they want. The bottom line is, while those qualities in a player are good, they do not win games. Rex Grossman needs everything (from the coverage to the receiver running the exact route) to be perfect to complete a pass. Yes he had some great games this year, but he had plenty more horrid games. And we knew that going in this year. The Beck experiment ended too early, IMO. Grossman allegedly was building a rapport with the receivers and they all seemed to buy into this "rhythm" they were getting into. Where was it yesterday? How many balls did you see either thrown at the feet of receivers or balls that sailed over their heads? Everytime he drops back to pass I cringe. Is that what you want in a QB?

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:54 pm

How does Beck and Grossman fare against a rookie in the same offense?

T.J.Yates of Houston, rookie 5th round pick, starting due to injuries to Schaub and Leinart, is playing in the same offense as Grossman and Beck. How does he compare so far:

Games Games started

Yates: 3 Started 2
Grossman: 10 Started 10
Beck: 4 Started 3

Passing:
TD INT RTG
Yates 46 84 54.8 558 3 1 82.3
Grossman 202 348 58.0 2,426 12 16 71.8
Beck 80 132 60.6 858 2 4 71.2

Rushing:

Yates: 11 43 3.9 0
Grossman: 19 12 0.6 1
Beck: 11 43 3.9 2

Fumbles:

Yates: 3 - lost 2
Grossman: 7- lost 4
Beck: 3- lost 1

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:09 pm

Here's a great article about our leader...

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8 ... layoff-run

Kilmer72 · Post by **Kilmer72** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:37 am

chiefhog44 wrote:Here's a great article about our leader...

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8 ... layoff-run

So whats your point?

StorminMormon86 · Post by **StorminMormon86** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Red_One43 wrote:How does Beck and Grossman fare against a rookie in the same offense?

T.J.Yates of Houston, rookie 5th round pick, starting due to injuries to Schaub and Leinart, is playing in the same offense as Grossman and Beck. How does he compare so far:

Games Games started

Yates: 3 Started 2
Grossman: 10 Started 10
Beck: 4 Started 3

Passing:
TD INT RTG
Yates 46 84 54.8 558 3 1 82.3
Grossman 202 348 58.0 2,426 12 16 71.8
Beck 80 132 60.6 858 2 4 71.2

Rushing:

Yates: 11 43 3.9 0
Grossman: 19 12 0.6 1
Beck: 11 43 3.9 2

Fumbles:

Yates: 3 - lost 2
Grossman: 7- lost 4
Beck: 3- lost 1

You forgot to mention that Yates has a far superior supporting cast around him.

grampi · Post by **grampi** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:45 am

Grossman moves the offense better than Beck....the worst thing of all is that these guys are our only choices...

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:14 pm

grampi wrote:Grossman moves the offense better than Beck .... the worst thing is that these guys are our only choices

where have you been? - some of us have been a little troubled by this ... ALL season :wink:

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:30 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:How does Beck and Grossman fare against a rookie in the same offense?

T.J.Yates of Houston, rookie 5th round pick, starting due to injuries to Schaub and Leinart, is playing in the same offense as Grossman and Beck. How does he compare so far:

Games Games started

Yates: 3 Started 2
Grossman: 10 Started 10
Beck: 4 Started 3

Passing:
TD INT RTG
Yates 46 84 54.8 558 3 1 82.3
Grossman 202 348 58.0 2,426 12 16 71.8
Beck 80 132 60.6 858 2 4 71.2

Rushing:

Yates: 11 43 3.9 0
Grossman: 19 12 0.6 1
Beck: 11 43 3.9 2

Fumbles:

Yates: 3 - lost 2
Grossman: 7- lost 4
Beck: 3- lost 1

You forgot to mention that Yates has a far superior supporting cast around him.

Far superior? He has Ben Tate and....Andre Johnson has barely played since Yates took over because of his hamstring injury and was inactive this week. The Texans' top 3 receivers on Sunday were Owen Daniels, Kevin Walter, and Jacoby Jones...hardly an All-Pro group. There probably' isn't a team in the NFL that has been more decimated by injuries than the Texans this season.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:40 pm

I don't get these comparisons - there are just so many factors

some guys can get ir done and some just don't have IT

this applies to all positions - this game is as much about playing within the scheme together as it is about having talent

At QB - we need a FA QB PLUS we need to draft a QB that can become a good NFL QB

these guys have done well so far with the players they have brought in and drafted - that is .... EXCEPT for the QB :roll:

StorminMormon86 · Post by **StorminMormon86** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:20 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote:Far superior? He has Ben Tate and....Andre Johnson has barely played since Yates took over because of his hamstring injury and was inactive this week. The Texans' top 3 receivers on Sunday were Owen Daniels, Kevin Walter, and Jacoby Jones...hardly an All-Pro group. There probably' isn't a team in the NFL that has been more decimated by injuries than the Texans this season.

Yet they're still 10-3, and they just clinched their division yesterday. If you don't think the Texans have a far better offense than the Redskins then you're crazy. I'd say we've had some pretty damning injuries this season as well (Lichtensteigher, Cool

ey, Hightower, and Moss for a bit).

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:57 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:Far superior? He has Ben Tate and....Andre Johnson has barely played since Yates took over because of his hamstring injury and was inactive this week. The Texans' top 3 receivers on Sunday were Owen Daniels, Kevin Walter, and Jacoby Jones...hardly an All-Pro group. There probably' isn't a team in the NFL that has been more decimated by injuries than the Texans this season.

Yet they're still 10-3, and they just clinched their division yesterday. If you don't think the Texans have a far better offense than the Redskins then you're crazy. I'd say we've had some pretty damning injuries this season as well (Lichtensteigher, ey, Hightower, and Moss for a bit).

With Johnson and Shaub of course its much better than ours. Without Shaub and Johnson they've struggled a good amount on offense and they are a below average offense with their current personnel. Just look at how their point total has dropped over the past three weeks. The first 10 games of the year they scored 20 points or less only twice. The last three weeks they haven't gone over 20. They have nobodies at wr and tight end, and a rookie quarterback. Their only offensive weapon right now is Ben Tate.

As for their injuries, they have 12 players on injured reserve, including their first and second string qbs, and Andre Johnson is out. I doubt any team in the NFL can match that.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:08 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:How does Beck and Grossman fare against a rookie in the same offense?

T.J.Yates of Houston, rookie 5th round pick, starting due to injuries to Schaub and Leinart, is playing in the same offense as Grossman and Beck. How does he compare so far:

Games Games started

Yates: 3 Started 2
Grossman: 10 Started 10
Beck: 4 Started 3

Passing:
TD INT RTG
Yates 46 84 54.8 558 3 1 82.3
Grossman 202 348 58.0 2,426 12 16 71.8
Beck 80 132 60.6 858 2 4 71.2

Rushing:

Yates: 11 43 3.9 0
Grossman: 19 12 0.6 1
Beck: 11 43 3.9 2

Fumbles:

Yates: 3 - lost 2
Grossman: 7- lost 4
Beck: 3- lost 1

You forgot to mention that Yates has a far superior supporting cast around him.

Actually, I didn't forget to mention it. As Canes point out, he is not playing without the usual supporting cast. I debated on whether to put that in my original post, but chose not to because Yates still has a running game and when we have run the ball, Grossman has put up good numbers as well. My point is not to say that Yates is better than Beck or Grossman, My point is to say that Yates is a 5th round draft choice who has picked up the same offense and is playing with a swagger than neither Grossman or Beck has shown and has the numbers to best what they are putting up or have put up. Yates is not afraid to throw the Ball downfield like Beck and he is not putting up the INTs like Grossman. Will it last for the next three games? We will see. That's why my post was left ambiguous - just comparing the numbers right now.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:34 pm

SkinsJock wrote:I don't get these comparisons - there are just so many factors

Yeah, one of the factors is one is a rookie 5th round draft choice, with no off season, with only 3rd QB scout team reps, playing in an offense that is supposed to be so complex that a vet like McNabb couldn't learn it with a full off season. That is what I find so intriguing about the comparison. I will be watching to Yates to see if he can keep this up for the next three games and the play-offs.

What does this mean for Beck or Grossman for next season? It might have opened Shanny's eyes. In addition to a first round QB, he might even draft a late rounder as well. That leaves Beck and Grossman to battle of the 2 position and the loser gone. Lot of folks think Grossman has the 2 locked down over Beck, but don't forget as a reliever, Beck looked pretty darn good against Philly. Beck has a contract. Grossman might be crazy enough to ask for more money since he was the starter.
As for Grossman needed to be a bridge for the 1st round Rookie QB, Yates' success points to a top rookie QB, with an offseason, being ready to start on opening day. Grossman not needed.

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:46 pm

Shanahan said we could win with either Beck or Grossman. He said he'd "Stake his reputation on that."

Hmm, so I wonder what Shanahan thinks his reputation is now??

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:20 pm

Well, Shanahan might say, I know QB's very well. Look what I taught my protege' Kubiak. He wouldn't have found Yates if it weren't for me, and for payback for all I taught him, he gave me Rex for free.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:36 pm

The Hogster wrote:Shanahan said we could win with either Beck or Grossman. He said he'd "Stake his reputation on that."

Hmm, so I wonder what Shanahan thinks his reputation is now??

Do you really believe that?

don't make a fool of yourself - we all know that Mike can't even lie straight in bed :lol:

next you'll be telling me that Obama is not running again because he said that if he didn't fix things with his first 4 years he did not deserve to get 4 more :lol:

you're a lot of laughs here today ... oh wait :twisted:

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:01 am

SkinsJock wrote:
The Hogster wrote:Shanahan said we could win with either Beck or Grossman. He said he'd "Stake his reputation on that."

Hmm, so I wonder what Shanahan thinks his reputation is now??

Do you really believe that?

don't make a fool of yourself - we all know that Mike can't even lie straight in bed

next you'll be telling me that Obama is not running again because he said that if he didn't fix things with his first 4 years he did not deserve to get 4 more

you're a lot of laughs here today ... oh wait

Either this post fails at dry humor, or is a weak attempt at an insult?? :-k

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:10 am

The Hogster wrote:Shanahan said we could win with either Beck or Grossman. He said he'd "Stake his reputation on that."

Hmm, so I wonder what Shanahan thinks his reputation is now??

This is seriously taking his point out of context. He meant that either quarterback could do the job. He clearly didn't mean he could win with either regardless of the circumstances, such as losing most of his offense. He meant that they were capable of winning. I mean duh.

StorminMormon86 · Post by **StorminMormon86** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:47 am

Red_One43 wrote:Actually, I didn't forget to mention it. As Canes point out, he is not playing without the usual supporting cast. I debated on whether to put that in my original post, but chose not to because Yates still has a running game and when we have run the ball, Grossman has put up good numbers as well. My point is not to say that Yates is better than Beck or Grossman, My point is to say that Yates is a 5th round draft choice who has picked up the same offense and is playing with a swagger than neither Grossman or Beck has shown and has the numbers to best what they are putting up or have put up. Yates is not afraid to throw the Ball downfield like Beck and he is not putting up the INTs like Grossman. Will it last for the next three games? We will see. That's why my post was left ambiguous - just comparing the numbers right now.

I think I understand now. We will have to wait and see how Yates fares the rest of the season, but he definitely surprised me in the Bengals game.

Red_One43 wrote:What does this mean for Beck or Grossman for next season? It might have opened Shanny's eyes. In addition to a first round QB, he might even draft a late rounder as well. That leaves Beck and Grossman to battle of the 2 position and the loser gone. Lot of folks think Grossman has the 2 locked down over Beck, but don't forget as a reliever, Beck looked pretty darn good against Philly. Beck has a contract. Grossman might be crazy enough to ask for more money since he was the starter. As for Grossman needed to be a bridge for the 1st round Rookie QB, Yates' success points to a top rookie QB, with an offseason, being ready to start on opening day. Grossman not needed.

This is another reason why I do not see Grossman here next year. I'm pretty sure Shanahan is going to want to draft an NFL-ready QB, who's going to start. No "bridge-guy" needed. Essentially, the backup QB will come down to who would play better in a "relief" situation.