No Luck... so... Now What?

StorminMormon86 · Post by **StorminMormon86** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:57 am

I'm not all that sold on Robert Griffin III. He reminds me of Troy Smith. And I do NOT want another "Troy Smith" type as our QB next year.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:04 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:I'm not all that sold on Robert Griffin III. He reminds me of Troy Smith. And I do NOT want another "Troy Smith" type as our QB next year.

The only similarity is their height and RGIII is a good 3 inches taller than Troy... While not as big as Cam, he more closely resembles him than Troy.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:07 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:I'm not all that sold on Robert Griffin III. He reminds me of Troy Smith. And I do NOT want another "Troy Smith" type as our QB next year.

I'm not a huge fan of RGIII, but the comparison to Troy Smith doesn't really fly. My biggest issue with Griffin is the system he plays in. You watch Baylor play and he is throwing to guys that are WIDE open every time. He doesn't have to throw with any anticipation or into tight spaces (exact opposite of the NFL). I don't think that he is a product of the spread offense the way some other qb's have been, and I think that he could eventually grow into an NFL qb, but I think that he is going to have a lot of growing pains in the NFL, and the transition for guys like Barkley and Luck will be much smoother.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:17 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:I'm not all that sold on Robert Griffin III. He reminds me of Troy Smith. And I do NOT want another "Troy Smith" type as our QB next year.

I'm not a huge fan of RGIII, but the comparison to Troy Smith doesn't really fly. My biggest issue with Griffin is the system he plays in. You watch Baylor play and he is throwing to guys that are WIDE open every time. He doesn't have to throw with any anticipation or into tight spaces (exact opposite of the NFL). I don't think that he is a product of the spread offense the way some other qb's have been, and I think that he could eventually grow into an NFL qb, but I think that he is going to have a lot of growing pains in the NFL, and the transition for guys like Barkley and Luck will be much smoother.

But analysts say that he does show great accuracy. If the guys are wide open, that's on the defense. He may still be showing great ball placement, timing, strength and anticipation.

And last year, the same things were said about Cam...about him not being able to transition. Who knows...

GoSkins · Post by **GoSkins** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:24 pm

I think the Skins will keep Grossman. We can not afford to have 2 new QBs; neither knowing Shanny's system. I agree with previous posters on the need for a QB with our first pick. I also agree that if Shanny doesn't fix the QB problem in the next 6 months then he won't be around after the 2013 season.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:26 pm

GoSkins wrote:I think the Skins will keep Grossman. We can not afford to have 2 new QBs; neither knowing Shanny's system. I agree with previous posters on the need for a QB with our first pick. I also agree that if Shanny doesn't fix the QB problem in the next 6 months then he won't be around after the 2013 season.

U keep Grossman as insurance. U possibly try to land a good QB in FA and then draft one (they come cheap now).

Potentially not too expensive . I dunno who is available tho.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:46 pm

I have no problem with keeping Grossman but if he's starting next September, then we've really got problems

Grossman should be the back up to the starting QB and help both the other 2 QBs get familiar with the offense

as soon as possible the rookie needs to get ready to be the back up over Grossman

this why we need 2 QBs and it's really important that the draft pick is almost ready to play in the NFL

PLUS Kyle needs to adjust the offense to better suit the players and NOT make them do what he's been doing here

StorminMormon86 · Post by **StorminMormon86** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:50 pm

SkinsJock wrote:this why we need 2 QBs and it's really important that the draft pick is almost ready to play in the NFL

This is extremely important in our selection for QB. He needs to be NFL ready. Can you imagine going into the 2012 season with Grossman still as our starter? :evil:

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:18 pm

1niksder wrote:
chiefhog44 wrote:what is the updated dart order? God, I really can't believe I'm this interested in this.

Back in the top 5 again... will move to fourth if Jags win tonite

1st Colts 0-12
2nd Vikings 2-10
3rd Rams 2-10
4th Jags 3-8
5th Redskins 4-8
6th Panthers 4-8
7th Bucs 4-8
8th Dolphins 4-8
9th Eagles 4-8
10th Browns 4-8
11th Chargers 4-7

chiefhog44 wrote:I keep having this panic attack about Shannahan NOT drafting a QB next year. THEN what?

Nothing will surprise me...

Updated Round 1 selection order

1. Indianapolis (0-12)
2. Minnesota (2-10)
3. St. Louis (2-10)
4. Jacksonville (3-9)
5. Washington (4-8)
6. Philadelphia (4-8)
7. Carolina (4-8)
8. Miami (4-8)
9. Cleveland (4-8)
10. Tampa Bay (4-8)
11. Arizona (5-7)
12. Seattle (5-7)
13. Buffalo (5-7)
14. Kansas City (5-7)
15. San Diego (5-7)
16. New York Giants (6-6)
17. Tennessee (7-5)
18. Cleveland - from Atlanta (7-5)
19. Cincinnati (7-5)
20. New York Jets (7-5)

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:21 pm

If the season ended with today's draft order, would anyone here be in favor of trading up from the 5 spot to the 1 spot if possible?

If so, what would you include in the deal?

Per Archie Manning, he doesn't expect Peyton Manning to remain in Indy if they draft Luck. So, chances are Peyton will either force the team's hand or he'll be in another uniform.

I can't see Luck "falling" past 1. But, none of the other teams would need a QB, except maybe Jacksonville. They've all got money invested in a young "franchise" QB. This could be interesting.

If Archie Manning is right, then Colts will sell Andrew Luck to the highest bidder. Or they will sell Peyton to the highest bidder. I can't see them sending Peyton anywhere without him approving it though. Plot thickens.

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:41 pm

I can't imagine Payton playing anywhere else. I think he would retire if he wasn't on the Colts. Just my personal opinion. On another note, I think the trade compensation will require our 1, 2 and next years 1. I think that if I'm willing to gamble, which I am, I let Indy draft b/c there's a chance they don't take him and he falls to us or we're able to move up without giving up as much. But 5-1 vs 5-3 may be 1,2 and 2 (2012)

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:48 pm

The Hogster wrote:If the season ended with today's draft order, would anyone here be in favor of trading up from the 5 spot to the 1 spot if possible?

If so, what would you include in the deal?

Per Archie Manning, he doesn't expect Peyton Manning to remain in Indy if they draft Luck. So, chances are Peyton will either force the team's hand or he'll be in another uniform.

I can't see Luck "falling" past 1. But, none of the other teams would need a QB, except maybe Jacksonville. They've all got money invested in a young "franchise" QB. This could be interesting.

If Archie Manning is right, then Colts will sell Andrew Luck to the highest bidder. Or they will sell Peyton to the highest bidder. I can't see them sending Peyton anywhere without him approving it though. Plot thickens.

I normally hate the idea of trading picks and I've had a number of rants on this board about us not trading away picks, but in this instance, given where we currently sit, I would try to make a run at the #1 pick. Luck is a stud, and while it would suck to lose picks (I think Frank is right about the compensation) I think it would actually be worth it in this instance. This franchise has messed around for too long at the qb position and we desperately need a franchise qb. Luck would give us the best chance at that.

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:56 pm

Canes - would you gamble with Indy to almost force them to either pass or pick him and then trade him? If they do pick him, then they are stuck with him if no one trades for him. They also then have a locker room issue with Peyton saying he won't play (or his Dad) in Indy if Luck is there. That's the only way I can see us getting Luck for a discount.

DarthMonk · Post by **DarthMonk** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:05 pm

Seems like Manning's contract was made to make him release-able.

According to NFL Network's Michael Lombardi, Manning would be eligible for termination pay of $1 million in 2012 and $500,000 in 2010 if his recent neck surgery precludes him from playing again. The contract reportedly includes a $28 million non-guaranteed option and a separate $28 million non-exercise fee if the Colts elect not to pick up the previous option.

The contract leaves a window in which the Colts could release Manning and not pay either sum. That would mean he would earn $26.4 million this season.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/feed/20 ... -cant-play

I don't think the Colts have any qualms about drafting Luck and doing what is necessary after that. Remember all the pundits blasting Green Bay over letting Favre walk so Rodgers could start playing?

Just let the Colts draft Luck then grab the next one, who, for my money, is RGIII.

DarthMonk

frankcal20 wrote:Canes - would you gamble with Indy to almost force them to either pass or pick him and then trade him? If they do pick him, then they are stuck with him if no one trades for him. They also then have a locker room issue with Peyton saying he won't play (or his Dad) in Indy if Luck is there. That's the only way I can see us getting Luck for a discount.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:05 pm

frankcal20 wrote:Canes - would you gamble with Indy to almost force them to either pass or pick him and then trade him? If they do pick him, then they are stuck with him if no one trades for him. They also then have a locker room issue with Peyton saying he won't play (or his Dad) in Indy if Luck is there. That's the only way I can see us getting Luck for a discount.

If we were lower down in the first round I would gamble. But even if we don't trade up, we should still be in a good position to draft either Barkley or Jones. If we stay put and either one of those guys is available I think we have to take them. Too big of a gamble, in my opinion, to pass on one of those guys in the hope that we can trade for Luck.

Also, I'm wondering if some of the comments from Archie aren't posturing to try and get Peyton some more guaranteed cash.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:05 pm

Andrew Luck is as sure a thing as you can get but I hope we try and draft as many players as we can

Bruce & Mike FULLY understand that their future depends on them having a QB here to start next year PLUS drafting a future good QB and getting him ready to play

We need to keep adding young talent AND quality depth a good team needs along both lines

we can still get a good QB with that first pick without having to give up draft picks

EVERY QB needs players around him to be really good - we need to add to the players we've got with as many top picks as we can

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:05 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote:
The Hogster wrote:If the season ended with today's draft order, would anyone here be in favor of trading up from the 5 spot to the 1 spot if possible?

If so, what would you include in the deal?

Per Archie Manning, he doesn't expect Peyton Manning to remain in Indy if they draft Luck. So, chances are Peyton will either force the team's hand or he'll be in another uniform.

I can't see Luck "falling" past 1. But, none of the other teams would need a QB, except maybe Jacksonville. They've all got money invested in a young "franchise" QB. This could be interesting.

If Archie Manning is right, then Colts will sell Andrew Luck to the highest bidder. Or they will sell Peyton to the highest bidder. I can't see them sending Peyton anywhere without him approving it though. Plot thickens.

I normally hate the idea of trading picks and I've had a number of rants on this board about us not trading away picks, but in this instance, given where we currently sit, I would try to make a run at the #1 pick. Luck is a stud, and while it would suck to lose picks (I think Frank is right about the compensation) I think it would actually be worth it in this instance. This franchise has messed around for too long at the qb position and we desperately need a franchise qb. Luck would give us the best chance at that.

+1

I am usually against trading up. But, Luck is a rare case. With that said, I don't think it would be the end of the world if we pass on him. I personally like Brandon Weeden and a few of the other prospects who could be had later.

If we could land Justin Blackmon, & Weedon in 2, I'd be totally happy with that draft. We need explosive players on Offense at the QB and WR positions. More interior lineman as well, but there aren't many who would not be a huge reach in the 1st. That leaves me believing that we could really get better by taking a guy like Blackmon, Barkley, Landry Jones, etc in 1, and filing the other need in the 2nd.

A better offense will help our defense. Staying off the field will make a world of difference.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:13 pm

The Hogster wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
The Hogster wrote:If the season ended with today's draft order, would anyone here be in favor of trading up from the 5 spot to the 1 spot if possible?

If so, what would you include in the deal?

Per Archie Manning, he doesn't expect Peyton Manning to remain in Indy if they draft Luck. So, chances are Peyton will either force the team's hand or he'll be in another uniform.

I can't see Luck "falling" past 1. But, none of the other teams would need a QB, except maybe Jacksonville. They've all got money invested in a young "franchise" QB. This could be interesting.

If Archie Manning is right, then Colts will sell Andrew Luck to the highest bidder. Or they will sell Peyton to the highest bidder. I can't see them sending Peyton anywhere without him approving it though. Plot thickens.

I normally hate the idea of trading picks and I've had a number of rants on this board about us not trading away picks, but in this instance, given where we currently sit, I would try to make a run at the #1 pick. Luck is a stud, and while it would suck to lose picks (I think Frank is right about the compensation) I think it would actually be worth it in this instance. This franchise has messed around for too long at the qb position and we desperately need a franchise qb. Luck would give us the best chance at that.

+1

I am usually against trading up. But, Luck is a rare case. With that said, I don't think it would be the end of the world if we pass on him. I personally like Brandon Weeden and a few of the other prospects who could be had later.

If we could land Justin Blackmon, & Weedon in 2, I'd be totally happy with that draft. We need explosive players on Offense at the QB and WR positions. More interior lineman as well, but there aren't many who would not be a huge reach in the 1st. That leaves me believing that we could really get better by taking a guy like Blackmon, Barkley, Landry Jones, etc in 1, and filing the other need in the 2nd.

A better offense will help our defense. Staying off the field will make a world of difference.

My issue with Weeden is that he's 28 years old and going to turn 29 during next season.

I like your idea of wr/qb or qb/wr in the first two rounds. With the way things are shaping up I would lean more towards qb first, wr second.

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:31 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote:
The Hogster wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
The Hogster wrote:If the season ended with today's draft order, would anyone here be in favor of trading up from the 5 spot to the 1 spot if possible?

If so, what would you include in the deal?

Per Archie Manning, he doesn't expect Peyton Manning to remain in Indy if they draft Luck. So, chances are Peyton will either force the team's hand or he'll be in another uniform.

I can't see Luck "falling" past 1. But, none of the other teams would need a QB, except maybe Jacksonville. They've all got money invested in a young "franchise" QB. This could be interesting.

If Archie Manning is right, then Colts will sell Andrew Luck to the highest bidder. Or they will sell Peyton to the highest bidder. I can't see them sending Peyton anywhere without him approving it though. Plot thickens.

I normally hate the idea of trading picks and I've had a number of rants on this board about us not trading away picks, but in this instance, given where we currently sit, I would try to make a run at the #1 pick. Luck is a stud, and while it would suck to lose picks (I think Frank is right about the compensation) I think it would actually be worth it in this instance. This franchise has messed around for too long at the qb position and we desperately need a franchise qb. Luck would give us the best chance at that.

+1

I am usually against trading up. But, Luck is a rare case. With that said, I don't think it would be the end of the world if we pass on him. I personally like Brandon Weeden and a few of the other prospects who could be had later.

If we could land Justin Blackmon, & Weedon in 2, I'd be totally happy with that draft. We need explosive players on Offense at the QB and WR positions. More interior lineman as well, but there aren't many who would not be a huge reach in the 1st. That leaves me believing that we could really get better by taking a guy like Blackmon, Barkley, Landry Jones, etc in 1, and filing the other need in the 2nd.

A better offense will help our defense. Staying off the field will make a world of difference.

My issue with Weeden is that he's 28 years old and going to turn 29 during next season.

I like your idea of wr/qb or qb/wr in the first two rounds. With the way things are shaping up I would lean more towards qb first, wr second.

Yeah. He is on the older side. If he's legit, he could have a good 7-8 years of productivity. I see him as one of the guys who could play right away. Along with maybe Landry Jones, Barkley, and of course Luck. It's time for the Skins to go all in on a young QB.

GoSkins · Post by **GoSkins** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:09 pm

I know the Trade Value Chart for trading picks in the same year's draft. But what are the values for picks in say the next 2 years? My view is the only way we get Luck is to give Indy our 1st in 2012 and then possibly our 1st in 2013 and possibly more if the draft value numbers make sense. We most likely will have to overpay, in terms of draft picks, to get Luck. But he would start for us day one.

StorminMormon86 · Post by **StorminMormon86** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:11 pm

I don't see Indy giving up the #1 pick (Luck). I don't follow college, but I hear Robert Griffin III and Matt Barkley's names being bantered about as the follow up QB picks. Are either or both of these guys "NFL ready"? And if they are snagged first, who's left that could start next year?

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:31 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:I don't see Indy giving up the #1 pick (Luck). I don't follow college, but I hear Robert Griffin III and Matt Barkley's names being bantered about as the follow up QB picks. Are either or both of these guys "NFL ready"? And if they are snagged first, who's left that could start next year?

Barkley is more NFL-ready than Griffin. Griffin plays in a spread offense at Baylor, while Barkley plays in a pro-style offense at USC. If you're looking for an order of which of the top guys would be ready to start the soonest, it would probably go like this:

Luck
Barkley
Landry Jones
Griffin

It gets a lot less clear after that.

Barkley and Jones both have a year of eligibility left, so the qb class could change dramatically if one or both of them decided to return for another year of college.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:57 pm

GoSkins wrote:I know the Trade Value Chart for trading picks in the same year's draft. But what are the values for picks in say the next 2 years?

The general rule is to follow the current TVC with each future pick losing a round in value.

If the Redskins were drafting today their 1st round pick would be worth 1700 and the current value of next year's 1st round pick would be equal to the 5th pick in the second round of this year's draft

GoSkins wrote:My view is the only way we get Luck is to give Indy our 1st in 2012 and then possibly our 1st in 2013 and possibly more if the draft value numbers make sense. We most likely will have to overpay, in terms of draft picks, to get Luck. But he would start for us day one.

If the draft was today the Redskins would have the 5th pick in the 1st round = 1700 pts., the 10th pick in the 2nd round = 480 pts., and the 9th pick in the 3rd round = 225 pts. The 2013 first round pick would be worth 530 pts., the second round pick would be worth 220 pts. and the third round pick would be roughly 84 pts.

Under the current TVC the Redskins will have to come up with 1300 pts. to equal what the 1st pick in the 2012 draft pick is worth to swap spots. That would cost the Redskins this year's first and second plus next year's first, second and third.

I would have to pass on moving up at this point

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:28 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:I don't see Indy giving up the #1 pick (Luck). I don't follow college, but I hear Robert Griffin III and Matt Barkley's names being bantered about as the follow up QB picks. Are either or both of these guys "NFL ready"? And if they are snagged first, who's left that could start next year?

Barkley is more NFL-ready than Griffin. Griffin plays in a spread offense at Baylor, while Barkley plays in a pro-style offense at USC. If you're looking for an order of which of the top guys would be ready to start the soonest, it would probably go like this:

Luck
Barkley
Landry Jones
Griffin

It gets a lot less clear after that.

Barkley and Jones both have a year of eligibility left, so the qb class could change dramatically if one or both of them decided to return for another year of college.

I have always been a bit hesitant on QBs that come out of a spread offense. Their numbers tend to be inflated, they don't have experience passing out of a pocket, and a large % of their passes were screen-types. I find it is riskier to draft spread offense QBs in the first round -- since you are selecting someone with no experience in a pro style offense. Their transition into the NFL has historically been more difficult.

I agree with you as far as college players that are NFL-ready -- but I would also include Moore.

And as far as getting Luck -- no chance. The Colts would most likely want 3 first rounders or 2 firsts and 2 seconds. It will end up being too much to give up.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:49 pm

1niksder makes it very clear - we would love to have Andrew Luck but trading up for him is going to cost too many quality players

It is critical for Mike & Bruce to draft a QB that they can get ready to play sometime in 2012

ALSO Mike should find a FA QB to come in and start here AND have Grossman get him and the draft pick ready to play ASAP

we have way too many needs and cannot afford to give up the draft picks it will take for us to get Andrew Luck