If you cannot discern the difference between the rebuilding in this regime and the "rebuilding" in previous regimes, then you're just hopeless. Really...
These injuries are a blessing and a curse. A blessing to the true rebuilding and youth movement and a curse to those of us who will have to listen ot the incessant whining it'll bring. We're going to test our depth, we'll see who can play and who can't. It'll help form a stronger squad for next year, a more experienced team. Guys like Austin, Hankerson, Mo'Hurt, Helu, Royster are all going to get to show themselves. I'm excited.
How long will it take to rebuild the Redskins?
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Chris Luva Luva
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Redskins_Fanatic
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ATX_Skins wrote:You are aware that had you performed your malfunction drill correctly you get an alibi right? Or does your comps not do that? Also, why are you paying $85 for a mag that breaks when you throw it? I have 20 dollar mag inserts that allow me to drop them on concrete and they work fine. Anyways, just something I noticed...
We're not talking bullseye shooting. We're talking IDPA practical pistol competition. You are responsible to ensure that all your equipment works at all times. The ONLY possible reshoot is for SO error or stage prop malfunction. Nothing else. Can't exactly look at the thug on the street and say "Ummm, hang on a second while I fix this."
I was shooting hi-cap mags in a Sig P226 at the time. They're $85 mags because they're almost impossible to find in Mass and illegal to import into the state. They're metal mags and it was thrown at the wall hard enough to bend the mag tube. The base plate came off the mag and the spring went with it, but the follower was actually stuck above the bend in the mag. I had someone straighten the tube for me, but it never worked anywhere close to reasonably afterwards, so the tube got chucked and the internals were kept as spare parts.
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Redskins_Fanatic
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Irn-Bru wrote:So let's pretend the Redskins go 5-11 or better.
When you say you will be willing only to say that you were wrong about their record, what you must actually mean is that you will eat crow and admit you were wrong about how successful this team really is, since W-L is the most important indicator of team success.
I can live with that. See you at 5 wins.
However, since success is only ONE of the measurements of the competence of a team, they will still be worth in my estimation. The truest measurement of a team is to be both Successful and Great. That Greatness is something that has eluded this team in every season I can remember except for 1991-92. It's something the NFL actively goes out of its way to disassociate itself with these days. That's why I have no respect for the NFL as a league.
Redskins_Fanatic wrote:ATX_Skins wrote:You are aware that had you performed your malfunction drill correctly you get an alibi right? Or does your comps not do that? Also, why are you paying $85 for a mag that breaks when you throw it? I have 20 dollar mag inserts that allow me to drop them on concrete and they work fine. Anyways, just something I noticed...
We're not talking bullseye shooting. We're talking IDPA practical pistol competition. You are responsible to ensure that all your equipment works at all times. The ONLY possible reshoot is for SO error or stage prop malfunction. Nothing else. Can't exactly look at the thug on the street and say "Ummm, hang on a second while I fix this."
I was shooting hi-cap mags in a Sig P226 at the time. They're $85 mags because they're almost impossible to find in Mass and illegal to import into the state. They're metal mags and it was thrown at the wall hard enough to bend the mag tube. The base plate came off the mag and the spring went with it, but the follower was actually stuck above the bend in the mag. I had someone straighten the tube for me, but it never worked anywhere close to reasonably afterwards, so the tube got chucked and the internals were kept as spare parts.
Malfunction drills are part of practical shooting though (transitions etc) as they happen in real life. My neighbor has some Sig mags, I will find out what he is using. They are much cheaper and extremely durable. You should be able to have them shipped, FFL to FFL.
Support the troops, especially our snipers.
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Redskins_Fanatic
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ATX_Skins wrote:Malfunction drills are part of practical shooting though (transitions etc) as they happen in real life. My neighbor has some Sig mags, I will find out what he is using. They are much cheaper and extremely durable. You should be able to have them shipped, FFL to FFL.
Yes, and I practice them regularly. This was an issue of the magazine itself malfunctioning and failing to properly feed. I've actually moved on to shooting a Smith & Wesson M&P9 now, as this incident occured several years ago.
In terms of the mags.... Per Mass. General Law, no high capacity feeding device (able to hold more than 10 rounds) may be imported into the state and no high capacity feeding device that was not in the state on 10/1/1998 may be re-sold inside the state. The sole exception is for Law Enforcement Officers. Those mags are stamped "LEO Only" and possession of them by a non-LEO is a FELONY.
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StorminMormon86
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Chris Luva Luva wrote:Guys like Austin, Hankerson, Mo'Hurt, Helu, Royster are all going to get to show themselves. I'm excited.
+1
Not to mention that these receivers are the same ones who were practicing with Beck before he became the starter. Guys like Paulson and Paul should have a good rapport with Beck. This goes back to Moss's "support" of Grossman being the starter. I think he wanted Grossman to remain the starter because he figured if Beck comes in, there were going to be more changes on the offense including receivers. Beck represents a portion of the "youth movement", and I'm excited to see how it plays out the rest of the season.
SkinsJock wrote:Ok - are we better than we were since these guys took over after 2009?
that is all the time they've had
go follow someone else if you can't see that this franchise is VASTLY improved since the first few months of Zorn's second year
we are very close to challenging for the best in the NFC East - we have the best HC, for sure
The SKINS are superbowl bound in Feb/12 yupiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!!
Is that the kind of answer you expect from a fan not to send him packing?
"We are better off with....."; been hearing that since Marty Schottenhaimer, Gibbs 2nd chance; Spurrier, Zorn .....
I consider this a clean up year, when a real group of players dedicated to the TEAM is put together, no matter the W-L consecuences. I think Allen is the key of this happening.
HaiL,
FEDUP!
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Irn-Bru
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Redskins_Fanatic wrote:Irn-Bru wrote:So let's pretend the Redskins go 5-11 or better.
When you say you will be willing only to say that you were wrong about their record, what you must actually mean is that you will eat crow and admit you were wrong about how successful this team really is, since W-L is the most important indicator of team success.
I can live with that. See you at 5 wins.
However, since success is only ONE of the measurements of the competence of a team, they will still be worth in my estimation.
Since the ideas regarding "Greatness" you've posted on THN have been without exception totally incoherent, I don't mind if you still think the team is worth dog poo. The important thing is that you'll admit you were wrong about how successful this team is. See you at 5 wins.
Redskins_Fanatic wrote:ATX_Skins wrote:Malfunction drills are part of practical shooting though (transitions etc) as they happen in real life. My neighbor has some Sig mags, I will find out what he is using. They are much cheaper and extremely durable. You should be able to have them shipped, FFL to FFL.
Yes, and I practice them regularly. This was an issue of the magazine itself malfunctioning and failing to properly feed. I've actually moved on to shooting a Smith & Wesson M&P9 now, as this incident occured several years ago.
In terms of the mags.... Per Mass. General Law, no high capacity feeding device (able to hold more than 10 rounds) may be imported into the state and no high capacity feeding device that was not in the state on 10/1/1998 may be re-sold inside the state. The sole exception is for Law Enforcement Officers. Those mags are stamped "LEO Only" and possession of them by a non-LEO is a FELONY.
It's only a felony if you get caught... I'm kidding of course, kinda. I just looked up Mass weapon control laws, dude, it's time to move!
Support the troops, especially our snipers.
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Redskins_Fanatic
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ATX_Skins wrote:It's only a felony if you get caught... I'm kidding of course, kinda. I just looked up Mass weapon control laws, dude, it's time to move!
Don't I know it, ATX. I've been trying to get moved to the Allentown/Reading area of PA for the last couple of months, but that area is even more depressed than where I am now, so the job opportunities just aren't flowing real well. MA has some of the most restrictive weapons laws in the COUNTRY.
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Fact is, we HAVE been rebuilding since about 1992. Joe Gibbs coached the team until 1992. Richie Petitbon took over as head coach with Desmond Howard and Reggie Brooks, who at one time were considered major prospects. The old guard fell off the rails so Norv Turner took over:
Norv Turner Era: 1994-2000
The Redskins attempted to build around Heath Shuler (3rd overall in 1994). They used Howard in an expanded role, they signed an aging Henry Ellard, they had a young Tom Carter... some decent parts.
Still, the Hogs were getting old. Jim Lachey retired way too soon, Schlereth, McKenzie and Ray Brown were all dumped sooner or later. Sure, the Turner era did unearth some stars. Tre' Johnson (2nd round, 1994), Gus Frerotte (7th round, 1994), Cory Raymer (2nd round, 1995), Jamie Asher (5th round, 1995), Rich Owens (5th round, 1995), Stephen Davis (4th round, 1996), Kenard Land (1st round, 1997), Derek Smith (3rd round, 1997), Stephen Alexander (2nd round, 1998), Champ Bailey (1st round, 1999), Jon Jansen (2nd round, 1999), LaVar Arrington (1st round, 2000) and Chris Samuels (1st round, 2000) were all key pieces to the Redskins for a while but they never "put it together".
Under Turner the team was 49-59. Still, they got to the playoffs once but could never seem to rebuild.
Marty Schottenheimer Era 2001
Not much of an "era" but Schottenheimer had a plan to turn Washington into a winning team. Get rid of any prima donas and build from the ground up. We can see how this worked for him in the past, and how it worked out for him in SD.
Marty committed the ultimate no-no at the time by benching Jeff George. He got the team to win with Tony Banks. This was very early in his ownership so Dan Snyder did not have the patience to allow a veteran football man to take the reins. He fired Marty after one season, but Schottenheimer did bring us Rod Gardner and Fred Smoot.
Steve Spurrier Error 2002-2003
Two wasted years. Spurrier brought in his own QB in Patrick Ramsey and neither did much in Washington. They flopped. Two bad drafts and 12 wins in 2 years. Spurrier set the Redskins back.
Joe Gibbs Era II 2004-2007
Gibbs came back to the team, in large part because he was embarrassed at the state of the Redskins. He wanted to see them come back into prominence. He'd lost a lot of the magic he'd had in the 80's but he still took the team to the playoffs twice in his tenure.
That being said, he traded for Mark Brunnel when he was about to be released. His hand picked QB failed. The team had no continuity when he left.
When Gibbs left, the team was practically in a shambles again. Instead of Gregg Williams taking over to establish continuity and build on any of Gibbs' success, Snyder went in another direction...
Jim Zorn Era 2008-2009
It's been widely reported that Dan Snyder wanted to hire former Giants coach Jim Fassel but instead he caved to fan pressure. Zorn was hired to be Fassel's offensive coordinator, which may have been a good fit for him, however once Fassel was off the table, he was promoted to the big chair. It seems obvious in retrospect that this was way too soon.
Zorn, perhaps accidentally, crushed the culture in Washington. He was laid back, and unfocused. Reporters would talk about Washington's 6-2 start in 2008 and how Zorn was telling them how to get ready for the playoffs instead of keeping them grounded. He and Vinny brought in a variety of players and draft picks who did little to help the team. By the time his tenure was over, we had a shell of the playoff teams Gibbs had built.
Mike Shanahan Era 2010-
The jury is still out on Shanny. He obviously made a HUGE mistake in trading for McNabb. Donovan McNabb lacked any of the fire, drive and work ethic to get the most from his talents in Washington. He was a major flop.
Still, he has time for these draft picks to pan out. The trade for Jamaal Brown has been a success. Fred Davis is developing nicely... The Redskins may just be spinning their wheels again, but I'm hopeful that we're finally on the right track. I said at the beginning of the season that 7-9 or 8-8 would be solid progress, and it would be. We have some young talent on this team, let's hope Shanahan can find a QB to lead them to the playoffs before his time is up.
Norv Turner Era: 1994-2000
The Redskins attempted to build around Heath Shuler (3rd overall in 1994). They used Howard in an expanded role, they signed an aging Henry Ellard, they had a young Tom Carter... some decent parts.
Still, the Hogs were getting old. Jim Lachey retired way too soon, Schlereth, McKenzie and Ray Brown were all dumped sooner or later. Sure, the Turner era did unearth some stars. Tre' Johnson (2nd round, 1994), Gus Frerotte (7th round, 1994), Cory Raymer (2nd round, 1995), Jamie Asher (5th round, 1995), Rich Owens (5th round, 1995), Stephen Davis (4th round, 1996), Kenard Land (1st round, 1997), Derek Smith (3rd round, 1997), Stephen Alexander (2nd round, 1998), Champ Bailey (1st round, 1999), Jon Jansen (2nd round, 1999), LaVar Arrington (1st round, 2000) and Chris Samuels (1st round, 2000) were all key pieces to the Redskins for a while but they never "put it together".
Under Turner the team was 49-59. Still, they got to the playoffs once but could never seem to rebuild.
Marty Schottenheimer Era 2001
Not much of an "era" but Schottenheimer had a plan to turn Washington into a winning team. Get rid of any prima donas and build from the ground up. We can see how this worked for him in the past, and how it worked out for him in SD.
Marty committed the ultimate no-no at the time by benching Jeff George. He got the team to win with Tony Banks. This was very early in his ownership so Dan Snyder did not have the patience to allow a veteran football man to take the reins. He fired Marty after one season, but Schottenheimer did bring us Rod Gardner and Fred Smoot.
Steve Spurrier Error 2002-2003
Two wasted years. Spurrier brought in his own QB in Patrick Ramsey and neither did much in Washington. They flopped. Two bad drafts and 12 wins in 2 years. Spurrier set the Redskins back.
Joe Gibbs Era II 2004-2007
Gibbs came back to the team, in large part because he was embarrassed at the state of the Redskins. He wanted to see them come back into prominence. He'd lost a lot of the magic he'd had in the 80's but he still took the team to the playoffs twice in his tenure.
That being said, he traded for Mark Brunnel when he was about to be released. His hand picked QB failed. The team had no continuity when he left.
When Gibbs left, the team was practically in a shambles again. Instead of Gregg Williams taking over to establish continuity and build on any of Gibbs' success, Snyder went in another direction...
Jim Zorn Era 2008-2009
It's been widely reported that Dan Snyder wanted to hire former Giants coach Jim Fassel but instead he caved to fan pressure. Zorn was hired to be Fassel's offensive coordinator, which may have been a good fit for him, however once Fassel was off the table, he was promoted to the big chair. It seems obvious in retrospect that this was way too soon.
Zorn, perhaps accidentally, crushed the culture in Washington. He was laid back, and unfocused. Reporters would talk about Washington's 6-2 start in 2008 and how Zorn was telling them how to get ready for the playoffs instead of keeping them grounded. He and Vinny brought in a variety of players and draft picks who did little to help the team. By the time his tenure was over, we had a shell of the playoff teams Gibbs had built.
Mike Shanahan Era 2010-
The jury is still out on Shanny. He obviously made a HUGE mistake in trading for McNabb. Donovan McNabb lacked any of the fire, drive and work ethic to get the most from his talents in Washington. He was a major flop.
Still, he has time for these draft picks to pan out. The trade for Jamaal Brown has been a success. Fred Davis is developing nicely... The Redskins may just be spinning their wheels again, but I'm hopeful that we're finally on the right track. I said at the beginning of the season that 7-9 or 8-8 would be solid progress, and it would be. We have some young talent on this team, let's hope Shanahan can find a QB to lead them to the playoffs before his time is up.
"Guess [Ryan Kerrigan] really does have a good motor. And is relentless. And never quits on a play. And just keeps coming. And probably eats Wheaties and drinks Apple Pie smoothies and shaves with Valvoline." -Dan Steinberg DC Sports Bog
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StorminMormon86
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frankcal20 wrote:Spurrier years were terrible. I think that we were jinxed after Shotty. Little Vinny chiming in DS's ear sort of like the puppetmaster. Says a lot that he's currently NOT working in the NFL.
I think Spurrier's issue was not hiring an NFL level staff. Had he done that, he could have been very successful in the NFL. The HC doesn't need to be the guru for tactical. In fact if they are it's the Jimmy Carter problem. But the staff have to be and they weren't.
Hail to the Redskins!
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Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him
Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
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frankcal20 wrote:The problem was that he felt his offense would work in the pro's. He wouldn't make any adjustments to the game plan to make up for defensive pressure put on QB's like Ramsey. Spurrier basically ended his career before it ever began.
Ramsey got every opportunity. His failure is on him. As for Spurrier I agree, but I'm not sure it's different really. Had he had the senior NFL staff Snyder was perfectly willing to buy then maybe they'd have figured out how to tailor Spurrier's style to be successful in the NFL. By not having such a staff they probably just went along with it.
Hail to the Redskins!
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him
Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him
Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
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Skinsfan55
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KazooSkinsFan wrote:Ramsey got every opportunity. His failure is on him.
Are you serious? I mean, how could anyone believe that he "got every opportunity"?
Drafted in 2002 by Spurrier who was not an NFL quality coach. Started a few games as a rookie. Then he got 11 starts in his second season where he was among the most sacked players in the league. He was injured. Then before the 2004 season Gibbs bypasses him and goes with his own guy, Mark Brunell. How is that getting every opportunity? His coach quits after two years where he got a total of 16 starts (with decent results mind you) and the new coach brings in a vet and signs him to an extension. Sure, Ramsey won the job back by default because Brunell was so bad, but for their two years together, Brunell always had the inside track. Instead of developing a QB we passed up the chance to evaluate what we had.
"Guess [Ryan Kerrigan] really does have a good motor. And is relentless. And never quits on a play. And just keeps coming. And probably eats Wheaties and drinks Apple Pie smoothies and shaves with Valvoline." -Dan Steinberg DC Sports Bog
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Irn-Bru
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Skinsfan55 wrote:Fact is, we HAVE been rebuilding since about 1992.
I don't think we can really say this. The Skins front office pursued a win-now strategy from 2000 up until the Gibbs years, following our unexpected success in 1999. That's not rebuilding. They were delusional, and we needed to rebuild, but just because the team needed to be in a rebuilding mode doesn't mean we were.
I think Gibbs slowed the tide a bit, but our front office was still the weakest link of the team during his tenure here. Nevertheless, Gibbs did put this team in a true rebuilding mode that lasted 3-4 seasons.
Since then, yes, we've been rebuilding.
But all of this throwing our hands up in the air over "rebuilding" really misses the point, IMO. Being a bad team does not equal "rebuilding." Sometimes a bad team is just a bad team.
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redskinz4ever
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yes fans do get tired of the team they love being average and losing year in and year out.Redskins_Fanatic wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:The correct answer to this thread is...
Longer than most fans want to wait.
It's already been two decades, what's another 12-15 years among "friends"?
TOUCHDOWN .....WASHINGTON REDSKINS !!!!
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Skinsfan55
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Irn-Bru wrote:Skinsfan55 wrote:Fact is, we HAVE been rebuilding since about 1992.
I don't think we can really say this. The Skins front office pursued a win-now strategy from 2000 up until the Gibbs years, following our unexpected success in 1999. That's not rebuilding. They were delusional, and we needed to rebuild, but just because the team needed to be in a rebuilding mode doesn't mean we were.
I think Gibbs slowed the tide a bit, but our front office was still the weakest link of the team during his tenure here. Nevertheless, Gibbs did put this team in a true rebuilding mode that lasted 3-4 seasons.
Since then, yes, we've been rebuilding.
But all of this throwing our hands up in the air over "rebuilding" really misses the point, IMO. Being a bad team does not equal "rebuilding." Sometimes a bad team is just a bad team.
Well now, I guess I just meant we've been a bad team rather than a rebuilding one. I do disagree about Joe Gibbs II though. When Gibbs joined the team I think there was a win now mentality. Shawn Springs, Marcus Washington, Cornelius Griffin, Mark Brunell, Clinton Portis... He was looking to win now. Also, he kept up the bad habit of trading picks.
I do agree that the tide shifted in 1999 when Snyder took over. It stings, to look at the missed opportunities there. We had a Pro-Bowl QB, a young Pro-Bowl RB, Larry Centers at FB, Westbrook and Connell who looked like they were figuring it out, a young Stephen Alexander, a decent young lin on both sides of the ball and young stars on D including a rookie named Champ Bailey... Snyder threw all that away chasing a championship the next season. For reasons I'll never understand he brought in Jeff George and dumped Johnson (who had at least three more years of good football left), then he signed Bruce Smith, Deion Sanders, Sam Shade...
Look at the youth from the 2000 team, there had to have been a better way to build on their success.
Stephen Davis (26), Chris Samuels (23), Jon Jansen (24), Derek Smith (25), LaVar Arrington (22), Champ Bailey (22)...
-----
Whatever happened to Derek Smith anyway? We let him go to SF where he remained a top shelf linebacker for a few more years.
"Guess [Ryan Kerrigan] really does have a good motor. And is relentless. And never quits on a play. And just keeps coming. And probably eats Wheaties and drinks Apple Pie smoothies and shaves with Valvoline." -Dan Steinberg DC Sports Bog
StorminMormon86 wrote:The Steve Spurrier era has got to be my personal darkest days as a Redskins fan. He successfully turned an NFL caliber team into a college level joke team in 2 seasons.
My darker years were the Nerv years and the 0-10 streak against the cowboys.... Of all the things Snyder has done, i think not firing Nerv the day aftr buying the team ranks side by side with signings of george, Smith, Deion, Archuleta, etc.
HaiL,
FEDUP!