Kickoffs

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:49 pm

Interesting, but not meaningful. Do the same comparison after the regular season, then we can discuss.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:53 pm

Deadskins wrote:Interesting, but not meaningful. Do the same comparison after the regular season, then we can discuss.

Agreed.

Food for thought right now, but will be meaningful if it continues during the regular season.

Looking forward to discussing as the season progresses.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:45 pm

I saw my pooch kick on the first Redskin kick off - darn near worked for turnover. Another Gano kick off was to the Goal line hung high and returner was stopped at the 18.

We saw an array of Gano kick offs with some going through the end zone and some going deep into the end zone. Some going to the corner of the end zone and one pooch kick.

Like I have been saying there isn't a set best strategy yet for kick offs even when you have a kicker with a big leg.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:20 pm

It's kind of interesting though that kickers that had difficulty getting the ball inside the 10 from the 30 are having no trouble reaching the end zone from the 35

I know the height of the kick is a factor but a deep kickoff with no height is going to be brought out no matter how deep

I hope they go back to the 30 but it's going to be interesting to see what stats they come up with after a whole season

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:22 pm

In week 1-

19 of 32 kick off returners had at least a 24 yard average or better
3 KOR TDs (108, 103 & 102 yds)

Brandon Banks 2 KORs 48 Yds 24 yd avg. (against a very disciplined Giant kick off coverage team)

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:46 pm

I pointed out, many months ago... this change was no big deal... and some would profit from it.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:52 am

Used to be if the kickoff reached the end zone, it wouldn't usually be returned. Maybe we're discovering that more deep kicks should have been returned all along?

yupchagee · Post by **yupchagee** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:35 pm

cvillehog wrote:Used to be if the kickoff reached the end zone, it wouldn't usually be returned. Maybe we're discovering that more deep kicks should have been returned all along?

I remember lots of KO being brought out of the end zone, back when they kicked off from the 40.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:17 pm

I didn't see the Oakland/Denver game, but I checked the stats and they showed no kick off returns at all - not one. This is what I thought the new rule would produce for games. I admit that I was wrong here. Games like this are a rare occurrence when you include preseason.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:33 pm

Red_One43 wrote:In week 1-

19 of 32 kick off returners had at least a 24 yard average or better
3 KOR TDs (108, 103 & 102 yds)

Brandon Banks 2 KORs 48 Yds 24 yd avg. (against a very disciplined Giant kick off coverage team)

Adjusting for the two Monday Night Football games

20 out of 35 kick off returners had a 24 yard average or better.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... &Submit=Go

Note*I did not count the 6 TEs and DEs that retuned kicks that's why my total returners is 35 and not 41.

andyjens89 · Post by **andyjens89** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:48 pm

Red_One43 wrote:I didn't see the Oakland/Denver game, but I checked the stats and they showed no kick off returns at all - not one. This is what I thought the new rule would produce for games. I admit that I was wrong here. Games like this are a rare occurrence when you include preseason.

They were in Denver and Janikowski has the biggest leg ever. Prater isn't half bad either.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:17 am

Red_One43 wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:In week 1-

19 of 32 kick off returners had at least a 24 yard average or better
3 KOR TDs (108, 103 & 102 yds)

Brandon Banks 2 KORs 48 Yds 24 yd avg. (against a very disciplined Giant kick off coverage team)

Adjusting for the two Monday Night Football games

20 out of 35 kick off returners had a 24 yard average or better.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... &Submit=Go

Note*I did not count the 6 TEs and DEs that retuned kicks that's why my total returners is 35 and not 41.

Do you have any stats on the percentage of returns on kickoffs vs last year?

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:10 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:I still think what's going to happen is that we'll get a year or two of near-automatic touchbacks, and then some coaches are going to start tinkering with having the kicker punch it really high in the air for hangtime and having it land near the goal line. Start to cover it almost more like a punt return, with the goal of tackling them inside the 15.

Hey, you were right! Gano punched one successfully at the goal ine and we almost recovered it before the Giants knew what was going on. I forgot I wasn't the only one who wanted to see this tried.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:12 pm

Countertrey wrote:There may be some merit to testing the techniques in a game situation... otoh, why let them get tape? It has limited utility, as it is a fairly desperate attempt to change the field position battle.

I believe that you were right on this, CT. Gano did not show the pooch kick in preseason, so the Giants were totoally caught off guard when he did it in the game.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:31 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:In week 1-

19 of 32 kick off returners had at least a 24 yard average or better
3 KOR TDs (108, 103 & 102 yds)

Brandon Banks 2 KORs 48 Yds 24 yd avg. (against a very disciplined Giant kick off coverage team)

Adjusting for the two Monday Night Football games

20 out of 35 kick off returners had a 24 yard average or better.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... &Submit=Go

Note*I did not count the 6 TEs and DEs that retuned kicks that's why my total returners is 35 and not 41.

Do you have any stats on the percentage of returns on kickoffs vs last year?

The NFL's new rule moving kickoffs up 5 yards produced a huge number of touchbacks during the opening weekend, yet a record-matching three kicks were returned for touchdowns.

Heading into Sunday night's game between the Dallas Cowboys and New York Jets, 49 percent of kickoffs (63 of 129) were touchbacks. Last season only 18 percent (24 of 137) were not returned the opening weekend.

Nearly 50% of kick-offs were touchbacks in Week 1 compared to 18% last season. The new rule produced an increase of 31% in touchbacks and produced a record tying number of KO TD returns.

Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2 ... z1XyoxEELd

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:48 pm

Will pooch-kickoff become the trend?
By Vic Ketchman, packers.com editor

As for the new kickoff rule, I gotta tell you, I think the pooch-kickoff is going to become the trend. As kickers get more height on the ball, and they will, the pooch-kickoff receiver will have no choice but to signal for a fair catch. I can see the day when pooch-kickoffs are causing offenses to routinely start at their 15-yard line, and that’ll force another change of the kickoff rule. Everyone is focused on the touchback factor of the new kickoff rule. I think the pooch factor is going to become more of an issue.

http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/ ... 556bd8f3dc

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:55 pm

Cobb wasn't the only player to return a kickoff from the end zone for a touchdown in Week 1. Percy Harvin went 103 yards, Ted Ginn 102. But it's not unusual — returners often field the ball two or three yards deep and take their chances, especially well-regarded specialists like Harvin and Ginn.

There have been 58 kickoff-return TDs of 101 to 103 yards in NFL history, but only 25 of 104 or more yards and only six (including Cobb’s) of 106 or more. Historically, the depth limit on kick returns from the end zone has been 4 yards, with a few exceptions: last returns before half or the end of the game (when field position won’t matter), or desperate attempts by the exceptionally talented or foolish.

There were 37 returns of kickoffs that traveled four or more yards into the end zone. Those returns averaged 29.7 yards in length, giving the offense average starting field position on the 23.9 yard line. If you consider Cobb’s touchdown an outlier and throw it out, offenses still got the ball on the 21.8-yard line. That beats a touchback, if only by 2 yards

Not every deep return was a success. Bengals returner Brandon Tate took four kicks out of the back of the end zone but twice got his team pinned inside the 10-yard line. Neither the Lions nor the Buccaneers attempted a deep return in their meeting, so not every team has embraced the idea of bringing kicks out from 8 yards deep.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/44535747/ns/sports-nfl/

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:57 pm

andyjens89 wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:I didn't see the Oakland/Denver game, but I checked the stats and they showed no kick off returns at all - not one. This is what I thought the new rule would produce for games. I admit that I was wrong here. Games like this are a rare occurrence when you include preseason.

They were in Denver and Janikowski has the biggest leg ever. Prater isn't half bad either.

The Broncos and Raiders never had a chance, because most kicks sailed out of the end zone. There may not be a single kickoff return in Mile High this season; if one happens, it will be at the end of the year, when the weather gets bad.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/44535747/ns/sports-nfl/

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:01 pm

Football Outsiders has studied kickoff yardage for years. Over the course of a season, kickoff lengths decrease by an average of 3-5 yards. In cold-weather stadiums like Buffalo, the effect is more pronounced than in warm locations like Tampa.

In Denver, kickoff lengths average 68 yards at the start of the year but drop to just over 64 yards by season’s end, meaning that the kicks that currently float off to heaven will actually land somewhere on the field of play come December. (In dome stadiums, as you might expect, kickoff lengths are roughly constant through the year).

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/44535747/ns/sports-nfl/

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:49 am

As the air gets colder, it becomes more dense. This increases moving resistance, and, therefore, increases the rate of deceleration of the football moving through it. Add to that, the decreased rebound of a cold football...

Net result, shorter kickoffs.

The number of returns will increase in outdoor, cold weather stadiums as we move through fall, and into winter, but should remain fairly constant at indoor or warm weather stadiums.

That's my useless prediction.

yupchagee · Post by **yupchagee** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:03 pm

Countertrey wrote:As the air gets colder, it becomes more dense. This increases moving resistance, and, therefore, increases the rate of deceleration of the football moving through it. Add to that, the decreased rebound of a cold football...

Net result, shorter kickoffs.

The number of returns will increase in outdoor, cold weather stadiums as we move through fall, and into winter, but should remain fairly constant at indoor or warm weather stadiums.

That's my useless prediction.

Right on both counts. Something I should have thought about before. There can be up to a 20% difference in air density from a hot day to a cold 1. Since we are talking about inviscid flow, that's 20% more resistance. My guess is that the change in elasticity of the ball has an even greater effect.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:59 am

yupchagee wrote:My guess is that the change in elasticity of the ball has an even greater effect.

+1

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:02 pm

Devin Hester on kickoff changes: “That rule is pointless”

Bears return man Devin Hester thinks it was stupid of the NFL to move kickoffs up five yards, and he’s not afraid to say so.

After a Week One that saw more touchbacks than usual but also more touchdown returns than usual, Hester said nothing really changed, and that the NFL passed a rule that was ostensibly about player safety but didn’t really have an impact.

“It’s just showing the NFL that moving the line up five yards didn’t budge things a bit,” Hester told the Chicago Tribune. “They got a couple touchbacks but you’ve still got guys bringing it out and at the end of the day that rule is pointless. It’s not going to prevent concussions because guys are bringing it out five to eight yards deep in the end zone. We’re still coming out with it. And that’s taking away from some of the fun in the NFL because guys are going to bring it out regardless.”

Hester is far from alone. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell thinks more touchbacks will mean fewer injuries, but most of the players who are putting their bodies on the line seem to want to keep the game the way it is.

At some point there will be research released concerning whether or not injuires have been reduced on kick-offs. If the research shows a significant drop in injuires then the NFL's stated goal will be reached and the rule won't will not be pointless as Hester says. In the meantime, I'll keep enjoying the 100 + yard TD returns.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... pointless/