Kickoffs

[yupchagee]

I still think what's going to happen is that we'll get a year or two of near-automatic touchbacks, and then some coaches are going to start tinkering with having the kicker punch it really high in the air for hangtime and having it land near the goal line. Start to cover it almost more like a punt return, with the goal of tackling them inside the 15.

I wonder if they are not punching it now, to avoid injuries in the preseason.

I would think to avoid injuries in the pre-season they are not starting their key players on special teams. But I doubt they'd not play the subs to get the experience and look for a diamond in the rough. I doubt coaches are wasting any play right now.

I hear ya, but here's my thinking on it. Once Gano proves he can knock the ball consistently out of the end zone, why not practice pooch kicking in a game situation? Why not get a look at these young guys knocking heads downfield. Though I see the value in the regular season in kicking the ball out of the end zone, I don't see it in pre-season except to avoid injury. Just puzzled about this one. Perhaps game two will see some change of strategy.

Good point. There are bond to be some situations where there is a penalty on the XP assissed on the KO.

[1niksder]

I still think what's going to happen is that we'll get a year or two of near-automatic touchbacks, and then some coaches are going to start tinkering with having the kicker punch it really high in the air for hangtime and having it land near the goal line. Start to cover it almost more like a punt return, with the goal of tackling them inside the 15.

I wonder if they are not punching it now, to avoid injuries in the preseason.

I would think to avoid injuries in the pre-season they are not starting their key players on special teams. But I doubt they'd not play the subs to get the experience and look for a diamond in the rough. I doubt coaches are wasting any play right now.

I hear ya, but here's my thinking on it. Once Gano proves he can knock the ball consistently out of the end zone, why not practice pooch kicking in a game situation? Why not get a look at these young guys knocking heads downfield. Though I see the value in the regular season in kicking the ball out of the end zone, I don't see it in pre-season except to avoid injury. Just puzzled about this one. Perhaps game two will see some change of strategy.

Good point. There are bond to be some situations where there is a penalty on the XP assissed on the KO.

I think Gano has one speed and isn't that acurate.

Danny Smith wants a guy that's accurate and that smith can say "pin him deep or "Make him come out" Shanny will find some one in the next week or two.

Competition seem to make Gano more accurate so I'm all for it.

[Red_One43]

Jets take different approach to kick returns

Jets special teams coach Mike Westhoff doesn’t see much use in a touchback, at least in the preseason.

Westhoff’s rule for kick returns on Monday night was simple. He lined up the returner line up seven yards deep in the end zone. If the returner can catch the ball while moving forward, he was instructed to take the ball out. If you have to back up for the kick, then take the touchback.

The Jets’ return units got more practice that way Monday, but it remains to be seen whether the Jets stay that aggressive during the season. If you have a good return man, it’s not such a crazy idea.

Sunday Night Football on NBC producer Fred Gaudelli actually predicted this very concept on PFT Live Monday. He thought teams might be more willing to gamble on taking the ball out of the end zone.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... k-returns/

[DarthMonk]

You know what urked my nerves, Akers is out west somewhere now. Akers is a real good kicker, he was a free agent I believe?

49ers signed 36-year old kicker David Akers to a 3-year deal

... and the one-time Redskin/kicker of the decade just kicked another 59 yarder.

I guess he shouldn't have gone 0 for 2 from 50+ in the one game he played for us.

DarthMonk

[SkinsJock]

That was a different era DM - the FO had no real idea of who could do what
talent evaluation for the Redskins was really a marketing driven decision for many years



we now have guys in charge that know what it takes to manage an NFL franchise and put a team together

[Red_One43]

Belichick says league wants to eliminate kickoffs

Without question, the rule moving the kickoff point from the 30 to the 35 has generated more discussion and debate than any other rule. It’s arguably caused more reaction and analysis than most other rules changes, combined.

Here’s the latest, courtesy of Tom Curran of CSNNE.com.

Patriots coach Bill Belichick said Tuesday that the league wants to eliminate the kickoff. And that’s not an expression of opinion. Belichick says that the league told him this.

“That’s what they told us,” Belichick said. “I’m not speaking for anyone else. That’s what they told us, that they want to eliminate the play.”

The league disagrees.

“[Chairman of the Competition Committee] Rich McKay and [NFL Vice President] Ray Anderson say that’s not accurate,” NFL spokesman Greg Aiello told Curran via e-mail. “They said the Competition Committee’s position was that they wanted to ‘shorten the field’ and that the movement of the kickoff line would potentially reduce the number of kickoffs to be returned. They said they are unaware of anyone saying that it was intended to ‘eliminate’ the kickoff return.”

It could be a matter of semantics. The league wants to make the play safer by having the play unfold less frequently. Each iteration of the play remains just as dangerous; the thinking is that, by running the play fewer times, the total number of injuries will drop. And so if the rule change results in no kick returns, the play will be completely safe.

NBC’s Al Michaels said on Tuesday’s PFT Live that he doesn’t like the rule, and that he doesn’t think it will last. Belichick explained that, for now, it will impact the decisions made when shaping a roster.

“If, instead of covering 60 kickoffs in a year you think you’re only gonna be covering 30, then is that coverage player as important, or — on the flip side of it — is the return game?” Belichick said. “If you’re going to be returning 30 instead of 60, are the guys who block on the kickoff return [as important?] If you think you’re gonna be returning more punts than kickoffs [there's a decision to weigh]. Usually you’re going to be returning more kickoffs than punts but if you think you’ll be returning more punts than kickoffs, then maybe you put more of a priority on your punt returner than your kickoff returner.”

He’s right. Kickoff returners have less value, and a kickoff specialist who can put the ball into the front row — or who can hang it high and drop it inside the five — will have greater value.

Regardless, the rule has created a bigger reaction than anyone anticipated. Peter King of SI.com pointed out in his latest Monday Morning Quarterback column that, in 2010, 16.4 percent of the kickoffs resulted in touchbacks. The number surely will go much higher in 2011.

Whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing, not many people are calling it a good thing.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... -kickoffs/

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

WHy not make right-footed kickers kick off with their left, and vice versa? I mean, if we're tinkering with the rules and all...

[yupchagee]

WHy not make right-footed kickers kick off with their left, and vice versa? I mean, if we're tinkering with the rules and all...

Or don't allow tees.

[DarthMonk]

Slightly off topic but stats clearly show (see Gano thread) that Gano was one of the best (perhaps THE BEST) outdoor kicker with regards to kickoff depth/hangtime last year. His leg is huge. I did and still do maintain he will be our kicker.

Related - he has shortened his approach on FG to 2 steps giving entire unit much more margin for error, particularly on the snap & hold. Accuracy should improve noticeably.

I am not sure how anyone can make a sound argument to keep him.

I'll try. The Redskins ask Gano to drop his kickoffs inside the 5 with good hangtime. This forces the returner to make some tough (and ocassionally bad) decisions. It also gives us a chance for some big hits/fumbles. His average kick lands at the 4 with an average return of 19 yards. That puts other teams at the 23 on average. Gano ranks number 1 in the league in this regard among outdoor kickers.

The only real argument you can make is that he is young --

I submit the above along with the fact that his leg is not only good - it's huge. One more thing. He is a very good punter. He did both in college (43.34 yards per punt in last year).

remember when the skins had the rights to Akers??

Darn right! I started a thread on this a few weeks ago.

12 years ago we signed a guy with a HUGE leg. He played one game for us. He made 2 PATs and missed 2 FGs - both from over 50 yards. We waived him. The Eagles picked him up. He's been to 4 Pro Bowls, made the All-Decade team, and now holds the NFL record for most points in a decade (1,114). His name is David Akers.

I say all this because we now have a guy with a HUGE leg (yeah, I know he just left a 47 yarder short). He has missed a few but I do not want to lose him.

Here is something I've noticed. Gano makes his move for the ball AS IT IS SNAPPED. Therefore, everything has to be perfect. I notice the ball is STILL SPINNING in Hunter-the-Punter-the-holder's hand as Gano's foot is striking it. This is a recipe for misses. Chip Low-driller aka Chip Pole-killer did the same thing. The only time he was REAL good was when we had the best holder in history.

Watch Akers. He waits half a beat before starting his approach. Does anyone have a hotline to our special teams coach? I'm convinced Gano has an all-pro leg and a strong mind. He needs to wait half a beat and hit it like a wedge from 55 yards in.

I hope we don't make that mistake again,

Same here!

but really I just don't see much to keep him around.

I do. His upside is huge. To simply let him go at this stage would be silly. Let's give him time to develop while we fix all our other problems.

We should actively pursue a new kicker and make Gano compete in the pre-season

Agreed.

-- which, if we find a half-decent kicker -- he'll most definetely lose out on.

I hope we make a competitor be more than "half decent." It's way to soon to cut ties with someone with this much talent.

DarthMonk

DarthMonk

I still think what's going to happen is that we'll get a year or two of near-automatic touchbacks, and then some coaches are going to start tinkering with having the kicker punch it really high in the air for hangtime and having it land near the goal line. Start to cover it almost more like a punt return, with the goal of tackling them inside the 15.

I wonder if they are not punching it now, to avoid injuries in the preseason.

I would think to avoid injuries in the pre-season they are not starting their key players on special teams. But I doubt they'd not play the subs to get the experience and look for a diamond in the rough. I doubt coaches are wasting any play right now.

I hear ya, but here's my thinking on it. Once Gano proves he can knock the ball consistently out of the end zone, why not practice pooch kicking in a game situation? Why not get a look at these young guys knocking heads downfield. Though I see the value in the regular season in kicking the ball out of the end zone, I don't see it in pre-season except to avoid injury. Just puzzled about this one. Perhaps game two will see some change of strategy.

Good point. There are bond to be some situations where there is a penalty on the XP assissed on the KO.

I think Gano has one speed and isn't that acurate.

Danny Smith wants a guy that's accurate and that smith can say "pin him deep or "Make him come out" Shanny will find some one in the next week or two.

Competition seem to make Gano more accurate so I'm all for it.

[Red_One43]

Slightly off topic but stats clearly show (see Gano thread) that Gano was one of the best (perhaps THE BEST) outdoor kicker with regards to kickoff depth/hangtime last year. His leg is huge. I did and still do maintain he will be our kicker.

Good point. I took note of that last season on his kick offs.

Related - he has shortened his approach on FG to 2 steps giving entire unit much more margin for error, particularly on the snap & hold. Accuracy should improve noticeably.

Perhaps he should relook his shortened steps and reduce his margin of error on FGs. Allowing more margin of error didn't help with the crucial blocked FG against Houston and the extra point snap in TB - definitely not Gano's fault in either case - when I guy doesn't block at all and the Hunter does catch the snap ... Gano take care of your business first - reduce your margin of error.

[DarthMonk]

I think we've confused margin OF error with margin FOR error (maybe not). They are basically opposites.

I think a LARGE margin for error is a good thing. A SMALL margin means everything has to be perfect. The adjustment I spoke of refers to this:

Here is something I've noticed. Gano makes his move for the ball AS IT IS SNAPPED. Therefore, everything has to be perfect. I notice the ball is STILL SPINNING in Hunter-the-Punter-the-holder's hand as Gano's foot is striking it. This is a recipe for misses. Chip Low-driller aka Chip Pole-killer did the same thing. The only time he was REAL good was when we had the best holder in history.

Watch Akers. He waits half a beat before starting his approach. Does anyone have a hotline to our special teams coach? I'm convinced Gano has an all-pro leg and a strong mind. He needs to wait half a beat and hit it like a wedge from 55 yards in.

The 2-step approach allows Gano to see the snap caught before he begins his approach. We now have MORE margin FOR error and over the long haul, fewer breakdowns on this unit - hopefully.

Confidence from this unit is huge. With a good start on FG tries this unit can become tighter and better moving forward. Each person needs to do his job and that, of course, includes Gano.

Slightly off topic but stats clearly show (see Gano thread) that Gano was one of the best (perhaps THE BEST) outdoor kicker with regards to kickoff depth/hangtime last year. His leg is huge. I did and still do maintain he will be our kicker.

Good point. I took note of that last season on his kick offs.

Related - he has shortened his approach on FG to 2 steps giving entire unit much more margin for error, particularly on the snap & hold. Accuracy should improve noticeably.

Perhaps he should relook his shortened steps and reduce his margin of error on FGs. Allowing more margin of error didn't help with the crucial blocked FG against Houston and the extra point snap in TB - definitely not Gano's fault in either case - when I guy doesn't block at all and the Hunter does catch the snap ... Gano take care of your business first - reduce your margin of error.

[yupchagee]

Slightly off topic but stats clearly show (see Gano thread) that Gano was one of the best (perhaps THE BEST) outdoor kicker with regards to kickoff depth/hangtime last year. His leg is huge. I did and still do maintain he will be our kicker.

Related - he has shortened his approach on FG to 2 steps giving entire unit much more margin for error, particularly on the snap & hold. Accuracy should improve noticeably.

I am not sure how anyone can make a sound argument to keep him.

I'll try. The Redskins ask Gano to drop his kickoffs inside the 5 with good hangtime. This forces the returner to make some tough (and ocassionally bad) decisions. It also gives us a chance for some big hits/fumbles. His average kick lands at the 4 with an average return of 19 yards. That puts other teams at the 23 on average. Gano ranks number 1 in the league in this regard among outdoor kickers.

The only real argument you can make is that he is young --

I submit the above along with the fact that his leg is not only good - it's huge. One more thing. He is a very good punter. He did both in college (43.34 yards per punt in last year).

remember when the skins had the rights to Akers??

Darn right! I started a thread on this a few weeks ago.

12 years ago we signed a guy with a HUGE leg. He played one game for us. He made 2 PATs and missed 2 FGs - both from over 50 yards. We waived him. The Eagles picked him up. He's been to 4 Pro Bowls, made the All-Decade team, and now holds the NFL record for most points in a decade (1,114). His name is David Akers.

I say all this because we now have a guy with a HUGE leg (yeah, I know he just left a 47 yarder short). He has missed a few but I do not want to lose him.

Here is something I've noticed. Gano makes his move for the ball AS IT IS SNAPPED. Therefore, everything has to be perfect. I notice the ball is STILL SPINNING in Hunter-the-Punter-the-holder's hand as Gano's foot is striking it. This is a recipe for misses. Chip Low-driller aka Chip Pole-killer did the same thing. The only time he was REAL good was when we had the best holder in history.

Watch Akers. He waits half a beat before starting his approach. Does anyone have a hotline to our special teams coach? I'm convinced Gano has an all-pro leg and a strong mind. He needs to wait half a beat and hit it like a wedge from 55 yards in.

I hope we don't make that mistake again,

Same here!

but really I just don't see much to keep him around.

I do. His upside is huge. To simply let him go at this stage would be silly. Let's give him time to develop while we fix all our other problems.

We should actively pursue a new kicker and make Gano compete in the pre-season

Agreed.

-- which, if we find a half-decent kicker -- he'll most definetely lose out on.

I hope we make a competitor be more than "half decent." It's way to soon to cut ties with someone with this much talent.

DarthMonk

DarthMonk

I still think what's going to happen is that we'll get a year or two of near-automatic touchbacks, and then some coaches are going to start tinkering with having the kicker punch it really high in the air for hangtime and having it land near the goal line. Start to cover it almost more like a punt return, with the goal of tackling them inside the 15.

I wonder if they are not punching it now, to avoid injuries in the preseason.

I would think to avoid injuries in the pre-season they are not starting their key players on special teams. But I doubt they'd not play the subs to get the experience and look for a diamond in the rough. I doubt coaches are wasting any play right now.

I hear ya, but here's my thinking on it. Once Gano proves he can knock the ball consistently out of the end zone, why not practice pooch kicking in a game situation? Why not get a look at these young guys knocking heads downfield. Though I see the value in the regular season in kicking the ball out of the end zone, I don't see it in pre-season except to avoid injury. Just puzzled about this one. Perhaps game two will see some change of strategy.

Good point. There are bond to be some situations where there is a penalty on the XP assissed on the KO.

I think Gano has one speed and isn't that acurate.

Danny Smith wants a guy that's accurate and that smith can say "pin him deep or "Make him come out" Shanny will find some one in the next week or two.

Competition seem to make Gano more accurate so I'm all for it.

That could be crucial. It seemed to me last yr that a lot of his problems were coordinating with the LS & H.

[Red_One43]

I think we've confused margin OF error with margin FOR error (maybe not). They are basically opposites.

I think a LARGE margin for error is a good thing. A SMALL margin means everything has to be perfect. The adjustment I spoke of refers to this:

Here is something I've noticed. Gano makes his move for the ball AS IT IS SNAPPED. Therefore, everything has to be perfect. I notice the ball is STILL SPINNING in Hunter-the-Punter-the-holder's hand as Gano's foot is striking it. This is a recipe for misses. Chip Low-driller aka Chip Pole-killer did the same thing. The only time he was REAL good was when we had the best holder in history.

Watch Akers. He waits half a beat before starting his approach. Does anyone have a hotline to our special teams coach? I'm convinced Gano has an all-pro leg and a strong mind. He needs to wait half a beat and hit it like a wedge from 55 yards in.

The 2-step approach allows Gano to see the snap caught before he begins his approach. We now have MORE margin FOR error and over the long haul, fewer breakdowns on this unit - hopefully.

Confidence from this unit is huge. With a good start on FG tries this unit can become tighter and better moving forward. Each person needs to do his job and that, of course, includes Gano.

Slightly off topic but stats clearly show (see Gano thread) that Gano was one of the best (perhaps THE BEST) outdoor kicker with regards to kickoff depth/hangtime last year. His leg is huge. I did and still do maintain he will be our kicker.

Good point. I took note of that last season on his kick offs.

Related - he has shortened his approach on FG to 2 steps giving entire unit much more margin for error, particularly on the snap & hold. Accuracy should improve noticeably.

Perhaps he should relook his shortened steps and reduce his margin of error on FGs. Allowing more margin of error didn't help with the crucial blocked FG against Houston and the extra point snap in TB - definitely not Gano's fault in either case - when I guy doesn't block at all and the Hunter does catch the snap ... Gano take care of your business first - reduce your margin of error.

Thanks for the clarification. I certainly was confusing terms.

[Red_One43]

Do the Redskins have something cooking for the regular season for kick-offs?

The Redskins seem content just booting the ball through the end zone right now. Four of their five kickoffs were touchbacks on Friday, making it nine out of 10 on the preseason. But the one that Indianapolis ran out, the Redskins stopped at the Colts‘ 13. It’ll be interesting to see whether special teams coach Danny Smith mixes up his approach during the regular season and has the kicker hang balls high and drop them at the goal line, expecting the coverage team to pin the opponent inside the 20.

[color=yellow]I wouldn’t be surprised if Smith has something cooking that he doesn’t want to show in the preseason.[/color]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... se/?page=2

[Red_One43]

Doubt if they will be changing the rules anythime in the future after this 108 yard return by Randall Cobb.

He may have killed the notion that KO returners are needed. Of course, Shanny never bought into that jazz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMyazcDMZ2s

[redskinz4ever]

kickoffs equal lameage

[Deadskins]

But the one that Indianapolis ran out, the Redskins stopped at the Colts‘ 13. It’ll be interesting to see whether special teams coach Danny Smith mixes up his approach during the regular season and has the kicker hang balls high and drop them at the goal line, expecting the coverage team to pin the opponent inside the 20.

Why would you only kick to the goal line? That forces a return. I say kick it about 5 - 8 yards deep, that way if they run it out you have a good chance of stopping them short of the 20. If they down it, they still have 80 yards to go.

[Red_One43]

But the one that Indianapolis ran out, the Redskins stopped at the Colts‘ 13. It’ll be interesting to see whether special teams coach Danny Smith mixes up his approach during the regular season and has the kicker hang balls high and drop them at the goal line, expecting the coverage team to pin the opponent inside the 20.

Why would you only kick to the goal line? That forces a return. I say kick it about 5 - 8 yards deep, that way if they run it out you have a good chance of stopping them short of the 20. If they down it, they still have 80 yards to go.

I didn't say just kick it to the goal line. I said hang the ball high such as hang time with a punt. It is awfullly hard to get a lot of hang time on a kick off going 5 to 8 yards deep in an end zone. Apparently, kicking it that deep is not working too well against Sproles and Cobbs and it didn't work well containing Banks in preseason.

If you want to stop them short of the 20 and have a chance of stripping the ball. Hang the Kick off up. The cover guys are 5 yards closer. of course there is a risk/reward factor here as well. The better the kicker with hang time, the better the results and it helps to have good cover guys too.

It also looked like the Packers kicker was trying to angle the ball into the corner of the endzone to insure that there would be no return. He just did get it in there on one attempt. It seems that the stategy for teams with kickers who can kick it through the end zone will do so. Glad we have Gano.

[Deadskins]

But the one that Indianapolis ran out, the Redskins stopped at the Colts‘ 13. It’ll be interesting to see whether special teams coach Danny Smith mixes up his approach during the regular season and has the kicker hang balls high and drop them at the goal line, expecting the coverage team to pin the opponent inside the 20.

Why would you only kick to the goal line? That forces a return. I say kick it about 5 - 8 yards deep, that way if they run it out you have a good chance of stopping them short of the 20. If they down it, they still have 80 yards to go.

I didn't say just kick it to the goal line.

I didn't think you said it at all, which is why I didn't quote you specifically. Obviously, you want hangtime on any kick (even an on-sides kick, after the initial bounce), to give your coverage teams a chance to get downfield. And there will always be exceptions, so it's ridiculous to bring up TD returns, like that disproves what I said.

[Red_One43]

But the one that Indianapolis ran out, the Redskins stopped at the Colts‘ 13. It’ll be interesting to see whether special teams coach Danny Smith mixes up his approach during the regular season and has the kicker hang balls high and drop them at the goal line, expecting the coverage team to pin the opponent inside the 20.

Why would you only kick to the goal line? That forces a return. I say kick it about 5 - 8 yards deep, that way if they run it out you have a good chance of stopping them short of the 20. If they down it, they still have 80 yards to go.

I didn't say just kick it to the goal line.

I didn't think you said it at all, which is why I didn't quote you specifically. Obviously, you want hangtime on any kick (even an on-sides kick, after the initial bounce), to give your coverage teams a chance to get downfield. And there will always be exceptions, so it's ridiculous to bring up TD returns, like that disproves what I said.

I recognize my own handwriting. Check a couple of posts back. I specifically wrote the statement you quoted. Banks has not returned a kick for a TD in preseason, so I am not just talking about TD returns. Banks consistently got past the 20 and darn near broke one for a TD. Not trying to prove you wrong. The prevailing strategy is to try to kick it out of the end zone or angle it through the side of the end zone if the kicker's leg is not strong enough, so that strategy is closer to yours than mine. You win hands down.

You asked why would you kick it to the goal and I gave you my reason and pointed out that last night, kicking it 5-8 yards deep is not working like folks thought.

Yes, obviously, you want hang time, but you get more hang time when you pooch kick the ball off a tee. Some kickers might be able to pooch kick the thing with enough hang time to pin the returner inside the 10 and have a chance for a strip.

[Deadskins]

But the one that Indianapolis ran out, the Redskins stopped at the Colts‘ 13. It’ll be interesting to see whether special teams coach Danny Smith mixes up his approach during the regular season and has the kicker hang balls high and drop them at the goal line, expecting the coverage team to pin the opponent inside the 20.

Why would you only kick to the goal line? That forces a return. I say kick it about 5 - 8 yards deep, that way if they run it out you have a good chance of stopping them short of the 20. If they down it, they still have 80 yards to go.

I didn't say just kick it to the goal line.

I didn't think you said it at all, which is why I didn't quote you specifically. Obviously, you want hangtime on any kick (even an on-sides kick, after the initial bounce), to give your coverage teams a chance to get downfield. And there will always be exceptions, so it's ridiculous to bring up TD returns, like that disproves what I said.

I recognize my own handwriting. Check a couple of posts back. I specifically wrote the statement you quoted.

It was highlighted in yellow along with the rest of the quote for which you supplied the link. How was I to know you wrote that part?

Banks has not returned a kick for a TD in preseason, so I am not just talking about TD returns.

Um, yes, he did. It was a punt, but I guess you meant a kick-off.

You asked why would you kick it to the goal

It was a rhetorical question.

I gave you my reason and pointed out that last night, kicking it 5-8 yards deep is not working like folks thought.

Like I said, there are always going to be exceptions. Once your statistical model gets more data, you will find the rate of returns drops dramatically. Besides, it's not like you're saying if NO had kicked it only to the goal, then Cobb would not have taken it all the way back. Or maybe you are.

[andyjens89]

As crazy as it sounds, I think the new rule will result in more kickoff touchdowns. The coverage teams have less practice covering kicks. Also, the returner only has to get to like the 30 yard line to get past the coverage and break it for a big one.

[Red_One43]

As crazy as it sounds, I think the new rule will result in more kickoff touchdowns. The coverage teams have less practice covering kicks. Also, the returner only has to get to like the 30 yard line to get past the coverage and break it for a big one.

This is my point that kicking it deep into the end zone might not be the best startegy if the teams are willing to take it out of the end zone no matter how deep. Kicking it that deep seems to be sacrficing hang time.

[Red_One43]

But the one that Indianapolis ran out, the Redskins stopped at the Colts‘ 13. It’ll be interesting to see whether special teams coach Danny Smith mixes up his approach during the regular season and has the kicker hang balls high and drop them at the goal line, expecting the coverage team to pin the opponent inside the 20.

Why would you only kick to the goal line? That forces a return. I say kick it about 5 - 8 yards deep, that way if they run it out you have a good chance of stopping them short of the 20. If they down it, they still have 80 yards to go.

I didn't say just kick it to the goal line.

I didn't think you said it at all, which is why I didn't quote you specifically. Obviously, you want hangtime on any kick (even an on-sides kick, after the initial bounce), to give your coverage teams a chance to get downfield. And there will always be exceptions, so it's ridiculous to bring up TD returns, like that disproves what I said.

I recognize my own handwriting. Check a couple of posts back. I specifically wrote the statement you quoted.

It was highlighted in yellow along with the rest of the quote for which you supplied the link. How was I to know you wrote that part?

Banks has not returned a kick for a TD in preseason, so I am not just talking about TD returns.

Um, yes, he did. It was a punt, but I guess you meant a kick-off.

You asked why would you kick it to the goal

It was a rhetorical question.

I gave you my reason and pointed out that last night, kicking it 5-8 yards deep is not working like folks thought.

Like I said, there are always going to be exceptions. Once your statistical model gets more data, you will find the rate of returns drops dramatically. Besides, it's not like you're saying if NO had kicked it only to the goal, then Cobb would not have taken it all the way back. Or maybe you are.

*No worries about the quote. I was just kidding. That is why I put the smiley face with it and called it "handwriting." I meant to say it was my post which I agree with what I quoted in the post. Rich Campbell, Washington Times, actually said what I wrote that is why it was in yellow. So you were correct to believe it was a quote. Regardless of who wrote it, I quoted it, posted it and I agree with it. You attacked it and I chose to defend it. That is what discussion boards are about. Tone unfortuanately is hard to decipher thus the emoticons but of course, they arent' fool proof.

*Yes, I meant kick-off for Banks - multitasking and lack of typing skills do me in at times. Thank for correcting me. No sarcasm at all here. The discussion is on.

*I didn't know that it was a rhetorical question. It had a question mark, so I answered it.

Deadskins wrote:

Like I said, there are always going to be exceptions. Once your statistical model gets more data, you will find the rate of returns drops dramatically.

*Of course the rate of returns will drop dramatically - that is why they changed the rule. My argument is about pooch kicking high to the goal line which would mean hang time like a punt giving the coverage guys time to get down the field to contain him has nothing to do with this change of subject on your part. Remember you asked the rhetorical question about why anyone would only kick to the goal line which of course you also left out the "high balls high and drop them at the goal line."

My understanding is that we were discussing stategies for the new rule. You don't like the pooch kick strategy. I respect your opinion and since no team that I know of is doing it. Your strategy is closer to the real deal. You like the kick it deep strategy and say that there are exceptions. I am saying that it is more than exceptions. During the preseason, there were 64 guys who averaged at least 24 yards or better for a kick off return. If the kick is five yards deep that is at least to the 19 on average with the possibility of breaking one - nothing lost in taking it out. There were 35 guys who averaged at least 28 yards a kick off. Randall Cobb, Packers, was one of them. There were 20 guys averaging 30 yrds or better. Two TDS - 103 yards and 105 yrds, numerous returns 30 yards or more are more than exceptions. What I am saying is unless you kick it out of the end zone - the strategy of kicking it deep is proving to not work as much as teams thought. - Sure - you get more touchbacks but I bet more and more teams are going to start going against that age old rule of you can't return it deep in your end zone. Cobb admitted that he defied McCarthy's rule of no returns after five yards deep. In other words look for more kick offs to be returned from deep in the end zome and if there is as much succes as there was in the preseason or success like last night teams will opt for other strategies like Crosby's of the Packers who was angling the ball to go out of the side of the end zone. Crosby doesn't have the leg as with a lot of kickers. A new strategy will be needed.

*Fact is teams haven't figured out the best way to handle the kick-off yet with the new rules. They missed a golden opportunity in preseason to experiement and they chose not too.
We have seen attempts to thunder it out of the end zone - most fall short. We have seen attempts to angle it out of the side of the end zone. Crosby wasn't successful on all of them. We have yet to see someone hang it high to the goal line. There might be another strategy that I have not seen - anybody?

Right now, the Skins are sitting pretty, because Gano can at least get to the back of the end zone consistenly and unless the teams have a better than average returner like Sproles and Cobbs, we are fine. For the Record, Devine Thomas, because he is a straight ahead returner with speed is better than average. I expect Devin at some point to be given the grreen light to take anything out of the end zone.


Deadskins wrote:

Besides, it's not like you're saying if NO had kicked it only to the goal, then Cobb would not have taken it all the way back. Or maybe you are.

You left out the hang it high part of kicking it to the goal. No one said just kick it only to the goal EXCEPT you AND like I said if you know of a kicker who can hang it high in the back of the end zone, there are 32 NFL teams who are interested. One of the problems with the kicks going 8-9 yards deep into the end zone is they are basically a line drive at that point. One of the new philosophies talked about by some coaches is - if you are moving forward take it out of the end zone with that philosophy, there will be more kicks returned than originally planned by the NFL.

[Red_One43]

How did Kick Returners fair in the 2011 preseason under the new rules compared to 2010 preseason? True they got less attempts but they made more with their fewer attempts. In the past 5 yards deep in the end zone, was a no brainer touchback. Now, most returners have the greenlight. At 8-9 yards deep, the skilled returners are being given the green light or just taking it. The general rule seems to be if you are moving forward to catch the ball return it. Teams with kickers who cannot kick the ball through the end zone will need to develop new strategies as more kick returners start to bring the ball out of the end zone with good results. Teams with outstanding returners will most likely give them the green light to decide which KO to return.

2010 and 2011 Preseason Kick Off Returner Averages.

Kick Returners with a 40 yard a avg or better
2010- 4
2011 - 5

A 30 yard avg or better

2010 - 20
2011 - 20

A 24 yard avg or better

2010 - 50
2011- 64

TD Returns
2010 - 4 none over 100 yards (99, 97, 97, 91)
2011 - 2 both over 100 yards (103, 105)

Brandon Banks
2010 - 3 KOR 74 Yds 24.7 Avg 40 Long
2011 - 5 KOR 152 Yds 30.4 Avg 58 Long

Note* The averages may be padded because of the addition yards from the end zone, BUT here is the point - kick offs in the end zone are no longer detering returners from bringing the kicks out. The norm has changed.

I chose to start with 24 yard averages since the 5 yards deep in the end zone seems to be a go with most returners. Averaging 24 yards will get a returner to the 19, so the reward of a big return is much greater than the risk of one yard on average (19 yard line vs the given 20 yard line from the touchback). Brandon Banks took a KOR from 6 yards deep in the end zone for 58 yards and was one man from going all the way. Reward was much greater than the risk. TB's kicker couldn't kick it out of the end zone so they kicked away from Banks. It appears that the new KO rules are helping the returners and getting the NFL want it wants less returns.