Skeptical That Redskins Can Win With Grossman Or Beck

[TeeterSalad]

It is laughable that any one thinks we will not be picking top 10 in the draft in 2012. I would love to hear the explanations as to why.

It seems to me that our #31 ranked D from last year will not be improved without Carlos Rogers who will be leaving via FA. OJ Atowge will help but we still have a terrible D-line, an average linebacking corp of which Rocky McIntosh is a FA and could leave. and a secondary that will start DeAngelo Hall who is terrible in coverage, gives up big plays and awful at tackling. His only positive is that he get a lot of picks. With who Phillip Buchannon who is also a FA and Kevin Barnes as our #2 and 3 corners. Who replaces Haynesworthless at Nose Tackle? Are we really going to rely on 2 rookies Jarvis Jenkins and Ryan Kerrigan to be that great their first year? We still have crappy Adam Carriker and Ma'ake Kemoeatu.

Lets take a look at our offense we will be starting John Beck or Rex Grossman at Qb sorry huge downgrade from McNabb. With Trent Williams and 4 other bums I will not even talk about on the o-line. I will say that Jammal Brown is a FA so we could be losing one of our starting bum o-lineman. Lets say we resign Santana Moss. So we have Hankerson, Moss and Anthony Armstrong at WR. Very weak. Who starts at RB? Roy Helu JR? Ryan Torrain. Not to forget to mention that our kicker Graham Gano missed the FG's in the league last year yet we never cut him and we also went through 3 punters last year. Do you really feel that an offense that struggled to score last year will be any improved this year with John Beck or Grossman starting at QB? YEAH RIGHT! We have a major lack of talent. We should continue to rebuild and get younger.

Why are a lot of posters against "The Suck for Luck" Campaign? Every contender in the NFL has either an upcoming young QB Stud, an already proven good QB and upwards of a great or Elite QB. We have not had a franchise QB since Joe Theismann. Look at the last 18 SB winning QB's post Mark Rypien. 15 of them are studs with quite a few (Brady, Peyton Manning, Favre, Elway, Warner, Aikman, Montana, Young) Being HOF QB's. (Elite QB's Brees and Roethlistberger) WE NEED A STUD QB to turn this franchise around. What is the point of having another dismal season where we win 4-6 games. What does that do for us? Sorry everyone but neither John Beck or Rex Grossman are the long term answer at QB for our franchise.

Does that get us Landry Jones or Matt Barkley. I would rather win 1-3 games, whatever it takes to get Andrew Luck at #1 and Have the best QB prospect since Peyton Manning, some even say John Elway. Getting Luck will set us up for a much better for future success over the next 10-15 years. So Yes, I want to tank the season with the goal in mind of future long term success.

I don't really have the time to reply to this post in as much depth as I'd like to, but I think that it is a hot steaming pile of pessimistic doo-doo.

The remark that irks me the most is the comment about "crappy" Carriker; I thought he did a good job without much help on that line, especially toward the end of the season. I think he'll be fully healed and will be an asset to the team especially with some help up front and a good rotation. I guess we'll see.

IMO the defense as a whole should be much improved this season between adding Otogwe and Kerrigan, Landry coming back, and hopefully picking up some help in the form of a CB and a DL in free agency.

I would be flat out pissed if my favorite team purposely tanked a season, I don't care what the reason might be. To be honest I wouldn't consider anybody a true "Die-Hard" 'Skins fan unless they felt the same way. "Suck and Luck" is absolute garbage, I want my favorite team to play their hearts out every game and win as much as possible. I'm sure thats why Shanny went out and drafted all of these "high motor" guys, just to piss the season away and grab an unproven QB next year.

[CanesSkins26]

I think we'll see the team improve in terms of their play, but I think that our ceiling is 6, maybe 7 wins, no matter what we do in free agency. If we mostly stand pat we'll have be lacking the talent to win more games, and even if we make some moves in FA, expecting players to gel with what is going to be a shortened off-season is unrealistic. Add in the Rex/Beck options at qb and what you have realistically is a team that falls short of being a .500 club. I don't care about the record though so much as I want to see some progress, since we saw almost none of that last year even as the season progressed.

[SkinsJock]

I think we'll see the team improve in terms of their play, but I think that our ceiling is 6, maybe 7 wins, no matter what we do in free agency. If we mostly stand pat we'll have be lacking the talent to win more games, and even if we make some moves in FA, expecting players to gel with what is going to be a shortened off-season is unrealistic. Add in the Rex/Beck options at qb and what you have realistically is a team that falls short of being a .500 club. I don't care about the record though so much as I want to see some progress, since we saw almost none of that last year even as the season progressed.

whoa there! - I can understand your pessimism but I think it's way too early to be able to predict how we'll do - let's evaluate the season based on who we have

given the second year with these players & coaches, I think we will have a better record this season - PLUS, I think they learn from the mistakes
HOWEVER - let's wait and see who we lose in FA ... AND who we add


as far as the fans that think the FO is acually planning on tanking the season - that is just plain stupid

[RedskinsRule56]

Why should I name Artis Hicks, Casey Rabach, Jammal Brown and Kory Lischtenfeld?? BTW I did name Jammal Brown in my previous post as I said he was a FA that may not be retained. It will take Andrew Luck a few years to become great but I am willing to wait that long. It will also take that long to properly rebuild this roster thru the draft. Do you guys really feel that John Beck or Rex Grossman is going to be our future QB? Give me a break..

[RedskinsRule56]

The Goal is to be a contender to win the Super Bowl in order to do that you need a franchise QB unless you have an amazing Defense like Bears and Ravens previously did in their Super Bowl appearances. SUCK FOR LUCK! Our roster blows I will bet anyone that we win less then 6 games this year and I am happy to have an awful season to get Andrew Luck. I am thinking about the long term future not short term success of which we will have zero with John Beck or Sexy Rexy at QB. It is as simple as that. I do not even need to look at all the holes on this roster which I have already spoke about our about how awful our ownership and management is.

[RedskinsRule56]

Andrew Luck could bust but many experts believe he will become the next Peyton Manning. That is who I want at QB. Fans need to accept that this is a rebuilding year and we should not go all out in FA just throwing money around left and right like we have in years past.

[1niksder]

Why should I name Artis Hicks, Casey Rabach, Jammal Brown and Kory Lischtenfeld?? BTW I did name Jammal Brown in my previous post as I said he was a FA that may not be retained.

I wouldn't have named Hicks either considering Will Montgomery was the starter at the end of the year. Casey Rabach won't be the starter if we are lucky and I have know idea who Lischtenfeld is but LICHTENSTEIGER looks to be Casey's replacement.

It will take Andrew Luck a few years to become great but I am willing to wait that long. It will also take that long to properly rebuild this roster thru the draft. Do you guys really feel that John Beck or Rex Grossman is going to be our future QB? Give me a break..

They are into their second year of rebuilding now... Why would Shanny go after Luck knowing if the Skins draft him it's a good chance he won't be making the pick?

[RedskinsRule56]

Andrew Luck will be the savior of our franchise. F Shanahan who cares whether he is here for the long haul. I JUST WANT TO WIN!

[RedskinsRule56]

How was last year a rebuilding year when they tried to plug McNabb in a QB and 38 year old has been Joey Galloway at our 2nd WR? Along with guys like Kemoteau

[RedskinsRule56]

Everyone needs to face it that we are rebuilding and it is best for us to get the #1 pick in the 2012 draft to get Andrew Luck!

[RedskinsRule56]

The Tank Job is in with us starting John Beck at QB this year. sit back and watch us blow again atleast we finally will get a franchise QB when it is all over with.

[Red_One43]

It's pretty simple that we are tanking for Andrew Luck and I completely endorse the move. The Future of the Redskins Franchise will be infinitely better with Luck than some other stopgap bum that we have fielded at the QB position mostly over the course of the last 20 years. We need to build our O-line as in 4 new starting O-lineman, add some WR's, we need a nose tackle, we need another DE, we need 2 LB's, probably 2 corners too. We need a punter and a kicker, and we need depth and to get younger which I think we are finally starting to do.

Didn't we hear from you tanking for Luck conspiracy theorists at the end of last season when it was thought that Luck was signing up for the 2011 draft?

Thus, the difference between 7-9 and 6-10 and 5-11 can be dramatic when it comes to, say, getting in position to draft Cam Newton or to trade up for Andrew Luck.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... f-tanking/


Yes, yes, look at the personnel that Shanny is putting on the field for the last three games they said. The first game against the Cowboys, Shanny nearly blew the tank job and lost by 3 points. Oops, against the Jags, he blew it and beat the Jags in OT. Where is Gano to miss a kick when you need it. Wheeew! Outplayed the Giants but still lost. Obviously, Shanny had a good talking to with Gano about returning to his missing FGs ways and told D. Hall to go to sleep on that give away 90 yrd TD reception for the Giants. A three point loss - that was close! Wait, we lost to the Giants 31-7 when Shanny was trying to win and then lose 14 -17 to the Giants while statistically outgaining them, even with the 90 yrd TD reception gift form Hall, when Shanny is trying to lose?

Shanny didn't tank then and of course he won't tank next season. One can try and spin it anyway one wants to, but the fact is our mixture of starter, reserve, bench warmer, and off the street players played better team ball that they played for most of the regular season.

One would think the "Suck for Luck" conspiracy theorists would at least wait until after free agency. Why aren't you waiting to see what happens in free agency?

Predictions for next season. Anybody can make a prediction and based on last year's performance and say that the Redskins will be as bad as last year and it make some sense. Clearly, the Redskins were a dysfunctional team with no identity. Shanny admitted that he had never issued out as many fines as he had with this team. We were dyfunctional - a QB who wasn't runnning the offense in sync with the OC! Albert! A 3-4 defense with the wrong personnel! An offense who was learning a new system. An OT coming off an injury. No viable solution at NT! A back up guard/tackle (Artis) who was placed in a starting role due to an illness of BMW! Deciding to lay off the weak free agency class of 2010 (not dysfunction but a reason we didn't upgrade at some positions)! A lot of folks dismissed reports from ex players, like Willie Parker and Justin Tryon and opponents like Darnell Dockett that said that the Redskin" attitude wasn't about win first. Yes, last year's team had issues. Each of their 6 wins could have gone the other way - All nail bitter close wins that came down to the last play. We could have been 0-16! BUT, WE ALSO COULD HAVE BEEN 12-4!

In the Redskin's 10 loses, two of them, we just got beat plain and simple - Giants (1st game) and Eagles (2nd). We all saw how the Rams and the Lions games got away from us (clearly these games prove that we were a team with issues). That is 4 losses. Now, look at the next 10 loses - Texans, Colts, Buccaneers, Vikings, Cowboys (2nd game), Giants (2nd game). All games with the right bounce or the right catch they could have gone the other way. Even with our weak personnel, even with all the yards we gave up on defense, we played well enough to have been 12-4. Yes, we played bad enough to have been 0-16, but my point is this - last year our problem wasn't just a personnel issue. I am not saying that our personnel was outstanding, but they were good enough to possibly get us a wild card berth going into last year. Our main problem was dysfunction if you are solely talking about why our team finished with a losing record.

The Redskins are already showing plenty of signs that the dysfunction is over. Teams lose close games like we did because they aren't good enough, but better teams win more of those close game. That is why I say that those who automatically think that we will suck when they look at last year's roster aren't looking at the total picture. Those last three games showed us that we need to upgrade, but we are also headed in the right direction by playing guys who really want to play. By drafting high high motor guys who are team first, Shanny is not infusing a winning attitude hear, but he will be sending the highly fined losing attitude guys packing. Already this isn't last year's team even with the roster as it is.
Yes, the Redskins will be a better team next year and have a better record (barring a slew of injuries. I can confidently say this without waiting for free agency to play bcause I understand that a lot of the game is mental. Check out my previous posts about the pro bowl talent each team had and where they finished last season (July 7th at 2:22)

http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=90

I do agree with you on some things. We are rebuilding, so we shouldn't go out there and buy up everyone. We do need a punter and better kicking to be a contender. I do believe that Shanny has a plan for free agency just like he did for the draft. There will be a mix of youth and age, but they will all be team guys who strong work ethics.

[1niksder]

Andrew Luck will be the savior of our franchise. F Shanahan who cares whether he is here for the long haul. I JUST WANT TO WIN!

But you want to tank a season too.... Can't have your cake and eat it too

How was last year a rebuilding year when they tried to plug McNabb in a QB and 38 year old has been Joey Galloway at our 2nd WR? Along with guys like Kemoteau

You question the team rebuilding then 2 minutes later you post this...

Everyone needs to face it that we are rebuilding and it is best for us to get the #1 pick in the 2012 draft to get Andrew Luck!

You might just want to step away from the keyboard and gather your thoughts

[Red_One43]

The Tank Job is in with us starting John Beck at QB this year. sit back and watch us blow again atleast we finally will get a franchise QB when it is all over with.

I don't think that McNabb set the bar so high at the QB position that Beck or Grossman can't match or even better what he produced. Check out Grossman's stats vs McNabb's from last season. I already posted them on this thread. I believe that a QB that that is running Kyle's offense the way it is meant to be run can only help the team.

I doubt that Shanny gives Beck or Grossman the the O line that McNabb had at the beginning of the season. Like I said, you chose to make your prdictions before free agency plays out. Why?

[Red_One43]

RedskinsRule56 wrote:

Who starts at RB? Roy Helu JR?

Word to those not high on Roy Helu: When Mike Shanahan moves up in a draft to get a running back, you might as well add him to your fantasy team.

Remember, Terrell Davis was a sixth-round draft pick; Olandis Gary was a fourth-round pick; Mike Anderson went in the sixth round; Ryan Torain was a fifth-rounder; and Peyton Hills was a seventh-rounder ...

Shanahan knows running backs. The offensive line will be improved (see slide No. 1), and Helu is a perfect fit. He also has some blazing speed, and would be the first Redskins running back in a long time to really have some breakaway speed to rip a big-time run

Helu has a great work ethic and is a high character guy. He'll slowly become the team's featured back and by the end of the season, the Redskins will have a new star running back.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/7189 ... son/page/8

[Red_One43]

The Shannys are crazy enough to think we can win with Grossman and five below average offensive linemen. We'll get Luck honestly.

Let's hope that this guy is right.

But, when Allen said the Redskins were going to be aggressive, I believe he meant that the Redskins would be aggressive in signing players in positions they couldn't address in the draft.

More surprising to me than the Redskins not drafting a quarterback was the fact that they only drafted one offensive lineman—and in the seventh round. When free agency opens up, that is the hole they'll be attacking most aggressively.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/7189 ... son/page/2

[RedskinsRule56]

What I am trying to say is that last year we did not try to rebuild. Under 12 years under Snyder's ownership we have failed to ever try to rebuild, we also try to for the quick fixes and winning now. You all have seen where that has gotten us. By starting Beck and potentially starting a few other rookies Kerrigan, Helu JR, Hankerson, and Jenkins we are getting younger and accepting that this season is a bust and finally having our first year of rebuilding.

[SkinsJock]

sorry guys - there's no way anyone with any sense can really think a HC and FO would try & "tank" a season of football - NO WAY

anyone who thinks that is clearly not all there

even Canes is only saying that he thinks we'll not do well based on personnel BUT NOT based on the HC and others trying to "tank" the season

not worth responding too - STUPID - the guy needs help

[RedskinsRule56]

You're all delusional if you think the Redskins will compete for anything with John Beck starting at QB? Please explain what sense you make of Mike Shanahan already backing Beck as the starter as he proclaimed today without even having an open competition at QB. Beck has started 4 career games in the NFL and he was Akili Smith/JaMarcus Russell/Ryan Leaf bad not only would Beck not start on any of the other 31 teams in the league he also would have hard time being a 2nd stringer on most of the other teams.

[yupchagee]

1) Neither Shanny nor Danny will tank.
2) There is no such thing as a sure thing.

[1niksder]

1) Neither Shanny nor Danny will tank.
2) There is no such thing as a sure thing.

+1

[RedskinsRule56]

For all the non believers in the Tank Job..

John Beck hasn’t taken a regular-season snap since 2007. He has played in five NFL games, fumbled seven times and thrown only one touchdown. Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome, a respected personnel guru, was willing to trade Beck for a guy on the Redskins practice squad. So how good can Beck really be?

[RedskinsRule56]

As I previously stated that our O-line is crap here is some proof for the rest of you delusional fans. The sooner you all accept that we are going to blow again this year the less upset you will get during another miserable season.

[/url]http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/07/12/2010-offensive-line-rankings-part-1/

28. Washington Redskins (2009 Rank: 29th)

Run Rank 25th, Pass Rank 28th, Penalties Rank 26th

The Redskins at least attempted to upgrade the unit by investing in Trent Williams and trading for Jammal Brown. The only problem being both men were pretty poor. They weren’t alone, with only Korey Lichtensteiger ending up with a positive grade in run blocking, and Will Montgomery the only one in pass protection. Plenty of work still to do.

Best Player: Will Montgomery. Although the only reasons that makes sense involves telling you how bad the rest were.

Biggest Concern: You want a quicker return than the 11 sacks Trent Williams yielded. Even if he makes drastic improvements you’ve got plenty of other candidates waiting to step into the breach.

[1niksder]

For all the non believers in the Tank Job..

John Beck hasn’t taken a regular-season snap since 2007. He has played in five NFL games, fumbled seven times and thrown only one touchdown. Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome, a respected personnel guru, was willing to trade Beck for a guy on the Redskins practice squad. So how good can Beck really be?

It was a reaction to the season-ending injury suffered by Domonique Foxworth by Ozzie, they had Bulger Troy Smith and Flacco at QB and Foxworth was the 3rd or 4th corner to go down and the season hadn't even started.

Shanny had Barnes and Tyron (at the time) fighting for one spot as a fourth corner. Shanny didn't like Colt Brennan and loved Beck when he came out of BYU. It was two personnel guys trading guys that wouldn't make their squad and getting a player that might help.

FTR: It was the pre-season so practice squads hadn't been formed at the time of the trade. And Beck recovered two of those fumbles

[RedskinsRule56]

1nksder What's your excuse for why if John Beck is the guy he didn't start last year after McNabb was benched?