Skeptical That Redskins Can Win With Grossman Or Beck

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:21 am

David Elfin On Sports: Skeptical That Shanahan’s Redskins Can Win With Grossman Or Beck

Let me start by stating the obvious: Mike Shanahan has forgotten more about quarterbacks than I’ll ever know.

That said, count me among those very skeptical that Shanahan’s Washington Redskins can win this season with either Rex Grossman or John Beck at quarterback since they couldn’t win with six-time Pro Bowl passer Donovan McNabb — who won’t be back after Shanahan and offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan severely soured on him — last season.

On paper, Grossman is the obvious choice to be the starter. He has a career record of 22-15 that includes two playoff victories for the 2006 NFC champion Chicago Bears. However, just four of those starts, three of them defeats, have come since December 2007.

Oddly, the end of Grossman’s reign as a regular coincided with the conclusion of then-rookie Beck’s brief four-game stint as a starter for the 1-15 Miami Dolphins of 2007.

During the next three seasons, Beck didn’t play for Miami (2008), Baltimore (2009) or Washington (2010), leaving his career numbers at a touchdown, three interceptions, 10 sacks in 117 dropbacks, 5.2 yards per attempt and a 62.0 passer rating. He turns 30 in August, two days before Grossman turns 31.

Grossman’s stats – 40 touchdowns, 40 interceptions, 6.4 yards per attempt, 67 sacks in 1,171 dropbacks and a 70.9 rating — aren’t gaudy either, but they’re a heck of a lot better than Beck’s.

More important, Grossman played well enough – seven touchdowns, four interceptions – in the narrow defeats against the Dallas Cowboys and New York Giants and the overtime victory over the Jacksonville Jaguars that closed the 2010 season for him to earn some trust from his Redskins teammates.

“Rex (has) been here before (as a little –used backup in Houston in 2009) when it comes to this offense,” leading receiver Santana Moss said after the Dallas game, Grossman’s first since replacing the demoted McNabb. “For a guy to come in this late in the year and have to go in a big (rivalry) game like this, he showed us what kind of guy he is.”
However, Shanahan went out of his way to praise Beck during draft weekend, saying he liked him more than any quarterback who came out of college in 2007.

Who knows? Maybe Beck, who spent two years on a Mormon mission after high school, really is a late bloomer like 1998 Redskins starter Trent Green, who didn’t get a shot until his sixth season but recorded a pair of 4,000-yard years in Kansas City. Beck certainly threw well during the players’ recent workouts in Northern Virginia and he displayed leadership by having a friend record the practices for use by any teammate that wanted to watch them.

But after Shanahan contemplated trading for McNabb for three months and then benched him after just three months as a starter, I’m not inclined to give the coach the benefit of the doubt on his quarterback choices.

Another news article that has nothing new

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:12 pm

I wonder if these guys EVER really consider the big picture with this franchise

we are most likely not going to be really good this season - it will most likely not matter who is the QB - we need to keep rebuilding both our offensive and defensive lines and look to the future

I think we'll be better than we were last season and I look for these guys to ensure they have a decent QB here in the near future - among other things that need addressing with this franchise

no matter who they brought in to be QB here, this year, we would not be a playoff team

I think McNabb was a mistake - big deal - nobody can convince me that Campbell was going to EVER turn into a good QB here let alone a really good QB

we need to move on and I still think that Bruce & Mike are going to CONTINUE to do a great job here

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:54 pm

How about McNabb for a 5th round pick and this guy. He's younger than Beck and Grossman and has 12 wins in 20 starts since 2005. Grossman and Beck don't have 12 starts combined since 2005.

He want's out and they are rumored to want a vet, they drafted a rookie that won't be ready and player organized workouts by the current QB on yielded 6 players on their best day.

The players need a leader just like the Redskins needed last year, maybe we can do to them what Philly did to Washington

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:08 pm

Tavaris Jackson is terrible.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:21 pm

Countertrey wrote:Tavaris Jackson is terrible.

Better than a Ham sandwich and a bag of balls

Skeletor · Post by **Skeletor** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:53 pm

what kind of ham?

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:30 pm

1niksder wrote:How about McNabb for a 5th round pick and this guy. He's younger than Beck and Grossman and has 12 wins in 20 starts since 2005. Grossman and Beck don't have 12 starts combined since 2005.

He want's out and they are rumored to want a vet, they drafted a rookie that won't be ready and player organized workouts by the current QB on yielded 6 players on their best day.

The players need a leader just like the Redskins needed last year, maybe we can do to them what Philly did to Washington

My belief is McNabb is that the Vikings want McNabb because Leslie Fraiser knows him from his Eagle coaching days and they need a proven veteran QB, so I think that you have the Minnesota part right. I am thinking that Mike wants at least a third rounder for McNabb and I think the settlement might be a conditional 4th that could be a 3rd based on McNabb's performance. Now, if Tavaris were to be thrown into the deal to get Mike to take the conditional 4th, I could see that. They could always cut him if he didn't show any promise.

Here's a synopsis of the 2008 season for Tavaris. When you look at his final four regular season games, I would think that the ever confident Shanahans could see some potential there - the BIG issue is - is this a guy that is willing to do as Kyle tells him? Kyle's offense does desire a guy that can move around. I don't think your speculation is unfounded. A huge question is where is Mike going with the third and 4th QB slot. We can expect one slot to be filled by an undrafted rookie, but what about the other slot? Hmmm.

Began and ended the season as the starting quarterback, but lost his job for the middle 10 games to Gus Frerotte after ineffective play early in the season. Finished the season completing 88 of 149 passes (59.1 percent) for 1,056 yards, nine TDs and two INTs. Had a passer rating of 95.4 and carried the ball 26 times for 139 yards. In the final four games of the season, had a rating of 115.4 with eight TDs and one INT, but struggled in the regular-season finale and playoff game against more aggressive defenses. Named the NFC Offensive Player of the Week after a four-TD performance against eventual Super Bowl entrant Arizona.

http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=9&c=2&c ... 6296&fhn=1

ATX_Skins · Post by **ATX_Skins** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:14 pm

1niksder wrote:
Countertrey wrote:Tavaris Jackson is terrible.
Better than a Ham sandwich and a bag of balls

Not VA honey baked ham. Or a bag of ping pong balls (in Thailand) :lol:

HEROHAMO · Post by **HEROHAMO** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:24 am

Tavaris is terrible. No, no and no.

I rather have the backup for Green Bay. He played a pretty good game against the Pats last year. Heck Id even take Vince Young over Jackson.

I think we have to realize that if we want a franchise QB then it will cost us if we get one via trade or free agency. If we truly want a franchise QB then I say we be patient this year and wait for Andrew Luck. Trade our first second,third and fourth this year for the number one. If we really want a QB that bad.

SkinsHead56 · Post by **SkinsHead56** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:13 pm

HEROHAMO wrote:Tavaris is terrible. No, no and no.

I rather have the backup for Green Bay. He played a pretty good game against the Pats last year. Heck Id even take Vince Young over Jackson.

I think we have to realize that if we want a franchise QB then it will cost us if we get one via trade or free agency. If we truly want a franchise QB then I say we be patient this year and wait for Andrew Luck. Trade our first second,third and fourth this year for the number one. If we really want a QB that bad.

I'm in. We haven't had a franchise QB since Sammy Baugh!

langleyparkjoe · Post by **langleyparkjoe** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:30 pm

In John Grossman we trust ](*,)

crazyhorse1 · Post by **crazyhorse1** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:07 pm

langleyparkjoe wrote:In John Grossman we trust

We have zip for a chance with either one. Pray Mac is back or someone not yet mentioned comes along. To approach the season in such miserable shape indicates a FO failure. I suggest you who applaud FA frugality consider a new proposition--Danny doesn't spend enough. Check the data, instead of referring to the increasingly distant past.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:02 pm

crazyhorse1 wrote:.... To approach the season in such miserable shape indicates a FO failure.

maybe to those who cannot see the forest because of all the trees around them

I don't think this FO has done a great job in the year plus they've had but I also think that "miserable shape" and "a FO failure" is a little harsh, to say the least

we were a franchise that was in a shambles due to very bad management (if any) by Snyder & Cerrato - Certainly this FO has made some mistakes but they have also positioned the club fairly well - we have a lot of work to do and many areas to address but that will ONLY take a little more time - I think we are in not bad shape all things considered - salary wise, we still have some room to be aggressive but I think these guys will continue to position and add to this franchise so that we can become a consistently competitive team again

WE NEED TO GET A LOT YOUNGER GROUP OF PLAYERS IN HERE

I think these guys have a plan - give them a little more time and watch what happens here

HTTR

aswas71788 · Post by **aswas71788** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:23 pm

The problem is that there is no one out there in free agancy that is a significant upgrade over Grossman and/or Beck. Even those that are an upgrade seem to be already committed somewhere, it is just a matter of the lockout ending. No other team is going to trade the Redskins (or any other team) a franchise quarterback unless the asking price is extraordinarly outragious. McNabb was a failure. I think the Eagles knew he was done so they took what they could get. The Redskins bit!

If the Redskins want a franchise quarterback, they are going to have to draft and develop one. Moving up in the draft to get a first or second draft spot is going to cost, big time. Unless, of course, the Redskins are going to tank this season to get the first pick in the draft next year.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:50 pm

aswas71788 wrote:The problem is that there is no one out there in free agancy that is a significant upgrade over Grossman and/or Beck. Even those that are an upgrade seem to be already committed somewhere, it is just a matter of the lockout ending. No other team is going to trade the Redskins (or any other team) a franchise quarterback unless the asking price is extraordinarly outragious. McNabb was a failure. I think the Eagles knew he was done so they took what they could get. The Redskins bit!

If the Redskins want a franchise quarterback, they are going to have to draft and develop one. Moving up in the draft to get a first or second draft spot is going to cost, big time. Unless, of course, the Redskins are going to tank this season to get the first pick in the next year.

I think McNabb to the Viking rumors are still out there for a reason, I don't think Brigham Young hands out degrees to idiots that just run their mouth, so John Beck got the OK to say what he's saying from somewhere (if you think coaches and players aren't talking,than Canes wants to talk to you about a bridge... that I should get a finders fee for). Grossman might be back but if they don't trade for Orton or grab Alex Smith than it'll mire than likely be Beck. If he pays off great if not, it's a one year deal anyway. We won't be bad enough for the "suck for Luck" camp but next year's draft class of QBs are WAY better than what was offered this year.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:18 pm

1niksder wrote:
aswas71788 wrote:The problem is that there is no one out there in free agancy that is a significant upgrade over Grossman and/or Beck. Even those that are an upgrade seem to be already committed somewhere, it is just a matter of the lockout ending. No other team is going to trade the Redskins (or any other team) a franchise quarterback unless the asking price is extraordinarly outragious. McNabb was a failure. I think the Eagles knew he was done so they took what they could get. The Redskins bit!

If the Redskins want a franchise quarterback, they are going to have to draft and develop one. Moving up in the draft to get a first or second draft spot is going to cost, big time. Unless, of course, the Redskins are going to tank this season to get the first pick in the next year.

I think McNabb to the Viking rumors are still out there for a reason, I don't think Brigham Young hands out degrees to idiots that just run their mouth, so John Beck got the OK to say what he's saying from somewhere (if you think coaches and players aren't talking,than Canes wants to talk to you about a bridge... that I should get a finders fee for). Grossman might be back but if they don't trade for Orton or grab Alex Smith than it'll mire than likely be Beck. If he pays off great if not, it's a one year deal anyway. We won't be bad enough for the "suck for Luck" camp but next year's draft class of QBs are WAY better than what was offered this year.

And I think this is exactly what the FO is thinking. Build up the team and then grab your franchise QB in year three. If we pull of these trades for Hayneworth and McNabb, we'll pick up a couple more low round picks which we could couple to move up for the QB we're eyeing. I wanted it done in this years draft, but I know a lot of people on here were clammering for building up the foundation of the team first, and it looks like they are doing just that. If we get a couple FA this year who fit the mold, and add a couple next year, along with with a QB, I think we're honestly set up for a while.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:57 pm

As I mentioned earlier, Shanny is expected to bring two more QB's to camp for a total of 4 (my speculation). One can reasonably conclude that one will be an undrafted free agent - perhaps Devlin of Deleware - just to drop a name. One can reasonably conclude that McNabb is gone (although one might agree that Shanny does strange things at times - hang in there Kaz).

What do you think Shanny is looking for for that other QB slot?
Do you bring in a vet QB by trade or by free agent pick up? We know that it will be tough for most vet QBs to come in here and be expected to run Kyle's offense to precision right down to the number of hitches before making the decision (see bottom of my post). I am sure Kyle doesn't want to start the season with the QB only knowing part of the offense when he has two QB's who know all of it or at least most of it. Grossman is in his third year with this O and Beck in his second. The vet would be just learning - he would probably not be ready to run the O until midseason and by then what purpose would he or any vet have in coming in and taking over? So, that brings me back to my question, what is Shanny looking for for in that other QB slot along with Grossman, Beck and the undrafted rookie that I speculate will be brought in?
Do you think he is looking for a starter for 2011? See above.
Do you think he is looking for a proven veteran back up in case either Grossman or Beck get hurt? That way, he doesn't turn the reigns over to an untested rookie a la Titans with the Rusty kid. This makes sense - name drop - Bulger. He is costly, but we need to spend money.
Is he looking to bring a young veteran who might be a big hit with this O and this guy possibly be our QB for the future? In this case, a trade for Orton or a young vet would make sense. But is Orton a Shanny franchise QB? Doubt that.
Is he looking to bring a young vet QB to have a stable of young experienced QB's to hold down the fort for 2011 and 2012 while the QB draft choice in 2012 is learning the ropes? (My belief) In this case, it would seem more likely, Shanny gets this guy after he is released by his team right after the lockout - maybe Alex Smith. If Shanny gets this guy by trade it would be one like the rumored Orton for Haynesworth and it takes place right after the lockout (I don't believe it, but yeah, I would do it without hesitation).
Save the draft choices for next year for possibly trading up - probably won't be in position to get Luck, but there are others.
Build up that O line with FA and protect Grossman, Beck and company like they are the vault at Fort Knox.
Build up that D in FA like you are going to attack Fort Knox (too many Bond movies).
For the future, the franchise QB is in next year's draft.
For 2011, it is Grossman or Beck out the gate. The only mystery is who will that 3rd QB be. My guess is whatever vet Shanny brings to camp it, he will not be expensive and he will have to compete for his roster spot and if the undrafted rookie shows a lot of promise, I say that number three QB for the season is the undrafted rookie that Shanny brings in or some young QB that Shanny covets that he is able to aquire like he did with Beck last preseason.
My prediction: Beck - 1 Grossman - 2 undrafted rookie - 3.

With an improved O line and improved defense shored up though FA, we can win with Beck or Grossman opening the season.

Your thoughts?

“During the course of a regular game, Kyle Shanahan wants you to run the offense exactly how he wants it, down to the amount of hitches you take to go through your progressions,” Grossman told Zig Fracassi and Solomon Wilcots, per Steinberg. “And if you really study that and rep that in practice, then it becomes a lot easier during the game. You’re not thinking as much as your body just goes through the progressions. That’s some of the things that’s really helped me start the second half of my career, and I feel like I’m a much better quarterback because of that.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... rol-freak/

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:22 pm

I think this team is going to be bad again this year, maybe worse than last year. We will have probably 3-4 new starters on defense, two who will be rooks and possibly 5 or 6 on offense. I think we will sign some big name Free Agents namely, the NT from San Fran and Nnamdi Asomugha. I expect to see a few new OL. New guys on defense will take time especially since we are the middle of a 3-4 transition. Offensively, it always takes time for lineman to gel, and we use a hybrid ZBS which is harder to learn as well. I say we go with Grossman, who is ok, but knows this complicated offense far better than any stop gap guy ever could. We might have the top pick in the Luck draft and if not, we won't be far out of the trading zone...We are in full rebuild mode guys, but with our cap room, these coaches, a GM and this fantastic free agent class, it could be a real quick turnaround.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:15 am

1niksder wrote:
aswas71788 wrote:The problem is that there is no one out there in free agancy that is a significant upgrade over Grossman and/or Beck. Even those that are an upgrade seem to be already committed somewhere, it is just a matter of the lockout ending. No other team is going to trade the Redskins (or any other team) a franchise quarterback unless the asking price is extraordinarly outragious. McNabb was a failure. I think the Eagles knew he was done so they took what they could get. The Redskins bit!

If the Redskins want a franchise quarterback, they are going to have to draft and develop one. Moving up in the draft to get a first or second draft spot is going to cost, big time. Unless, of course, the Redskins are going to tank this season to get the first pick in the next year.

I think McNabb to the Viking rumors are still out there for a reason, I don't think Brigham Young hands out degrees to idiots that just run their mouth, so John Beck got the OK to say what he's saying from somewhere (if you think coaches and players aren't talking,than Canes wants to talk to you about a bridge... that I should get a finders fee for). Grossman might be back but if they don't trade for Orton or grab Alex Smith than it'll mire than likely be Beck. If he pays off great if not, it's a one year deal anyway. We won't be bad enough for the "suck for Luck" camp but next year's draft class of QBs are WAY better than what was offered this year.

I'm hoping for "Suck and Luck" but I agree that we are unlikely to get the #2 overall pick (Carolina has #1 locked up again) to grab Luck. But with Landry Jones and Matt Barkley also likely available, we should be in a good position to grab one of them, or only have to move up a spot or two, to draft one of them.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:26 am

I like Barkley more than Luck anyway

MDSKINSFAN · Post by **MDSKINSFAN** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:55 am

At this point I really don't care who the QB is. We aren't a playoff team anyway. I would prefer Beck just because we know what we have in Rex, inconsistency and turnovers.

The way I look at is, at worst Beck is awful and we are in position to get Luck and at best he proves to be what the Shanahan's thought he was coming out of college. It will probably be somewhere in between but either way he is worth a look and expectations are low.

aswas71788 · Post by **aswas71788** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:07 pm

1niksder wrote:
aswas71788 wrote:The problem is that there is no one out there in free agancy that is a significant upgrade over Grossman and/or Beck. Even those that are an upgrade seem to be already committed somewhere, it is just a matter of the lockout ending. No other team is going to trade the Redskins (or any other team) a franchise quarterback unless the asking price is extraordinarly outragious. McNabb was a failure. I think the Eagles knew he was done so they took what they could get. The Redskins bit!

If the Redskins want a franchise quarterback, they are going to have to draft and develop one. Moving up in the draft to get a first or second draft spot is going to cost, big time. Unless, of course, the Redskins are going to tank this season to get the first pick in the next year.

I think McNabb to the Viking rumors are still out there for a reason, I don't think Brigham Young hands out degrees to idiots that just run their mouth, so John Beck got the OK to say what he's saying from somewhere (if you think coaches and players aren't talking,than Canes wants to talk to you about a bridge... that I should get a finders fee for). Grossman might be back but if they don't trade for Orton or grab Alex Smith than it'll mire than likely be Beck. If he pays off great if not, it's a one year deal anyway. We won't be bad enough for the "suck for Luck" camp but next year's draft class of QBs are WAY better than what was offered this year.

Agreed that the McNabb to Vikings is there for a reason. It would be the best place for McNabb besides Arizona. I don't see that happening though. Agreed that there is no one out there that is a significant upgrade over Grossman. Orton will cost almost as much as Luck will next year so I don't think that is a worthwhile trade. Smith seems channeled to go back to San Francisco. I think Smith would be a good pick up. He showed improvement last year. But there is a concern on my part if he could transfer to a new system and continue to improve. The Redskins are not going to get Kolb as the Eagles will not trade him in the division. Kolb is not McNabb.....done.

So, if my preceptions prove to be correct (the odds are better that they are not!!!), where do we go? We know what we get with Grossman. A journeyman that falls apart when something bad happens but still a serviceable (marginally) quarterback. We know nothing about Beck other than 3 other teams passed on him. If Beck turns out to be our starting quarterback, I hope he proves to be the next Manning (either Peyton or Eli).

I absolutely agree with you about getting Luck. We are not going to be bad enought to finish last unless we tank the season. (I don't see or advocate that happening.) It will take more than it should be worth to trade up to get Luck. We would cripple ourselves for a couple years doing that. Remember though, Luck will still be a rookie. He could be a Manning or he could be Leaf. Young and Jackson are often mentioned to the Redskins. Both have personnel issue baggage, bad baggage. I am not sure that Shanahan is willing to deal with it.

Another intriging player is Matt Leinart (aka The Checkdown Kid). He seems to be sufficiently humbled to be willing to put in the time. He is a long, long shot though. His college coach is not seemingly interested in taking a chance on him so that kind of puts the kiss of death on him. Anyway, he seems to be content to go back to Houston as a back up.

This year is going to be painfull. It is not going to be a play off team, just a team that is trying to survive.

yupchagee · Post by **yupchagee** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:06 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote:
1niksder wrote:
aswas71788 wrote:The problem is that there is no one out there in free agancy that is a significant upgrade over Grossman and/or Beck. Even those that are an upgrade seem to be already committed somewhere, it is just a matter of the lockout ending. No other team is going to trade the Redskins (or any other team) a franchise quarterback unless the asking price is extraordinarly outragious. McNabb was a failure. I think the Eagles knew he was done so they took what they could get. The Redskins bit!

If the Redskins want a franchise quarterback, they are going to have to draft and develop one. Moving up in the draft to get a first or second draft spot is going to cost, big time. Unless, of course, the Redskins are going to tank this season to get the first pick in the next year.

I think McNabb to the Viking rumors are still out there for a reason, I don't think Brigham Young hands out degrees to idiots that just run their mouth, so John Beck got the OK to say what he's saying from somewhere (if you think coaches and players aren't talking,than Canes wants to talk to you about a bridge... that I should get a finders fee for). Grossman might be back but if they don't trade for Orton or grab Alex Smith than it'll mire than likely be Beck. If he pays off great if not, it's a one year deal anyway. We won't be bad enough for the "suck for Luck" camp but next year's draft class of QBs are WAY better than what was offered this year.

I'm hoping for "Suck and Luck" but I agree that we are unlikely to get the #2 overall pick (Carolina has #1 locked up again) to grab Luck. But with Landry Jones and Matt Barkley also likely available, we should be in a good position to grab one of them, or only have to move up a spot or two, to draft one of them.

People are saying the same things about Luck this year that they were saying about Locker last year. Things can change in a hurry.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:34 pm

I think that fans that think we are picking in the top 5 in the draft in 2012 are going to be a little disapointed

certainly a good indication they have ZERO idea about putting together a franchise

aswas71788 · Post by **aswas71788** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:48 pm

SkinsJock wrote:I think that fans that think we are picking in the top 5 in the draft in 2012 are going to be a little disapointed

certainly a good indication they have ZERO idea about putting together a franchise

I would bet that the Redskins pick at about the same place as they did last year or maybe a little lower due to the soft schedule. Somewhere 10 to 14.