'AJ Green vs. Julio Jones'

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:49 pm

DarthMonk wrote:It appears Julio Jones has a decent chance of being available at #10. Green less likely. Both? No way.

I say pick Julio Jones.

I've said it once and I'll say it again:

Here's the best example I ever heard - from the book America's Game - Page 337:

The 1979 draft found the Dallas Cowboys preparing for the beginning of a new era, with Roger Staubach nearing the end of his career. His understudy Danny White, who'd come over after the demise of the WFL, was the heir apparent, and the young Glenn Carano, an unpolished but physically gifted thrower form the University of Nevada-Las Vegas was seen as a potential diamond in the rough. In the 3rd round, as the Cowboys' selection came up, Tom Landry looked at the Cowboys' master list, and did something he had rarely done in his 19 years of drafting. Instead of taking the top player on the Cowboys' chart, he went "against the board" and selected not the highest-rated player but the next-highest-ranked one, a rangy tight end named Doug Cosbie, who would go on to enjoy a productive career and provide further evidence that the Cowboys were able to find a diamond in the rough.

On the next selection, the 82nd, San Francisco chose the very player who had been on the top of the Cowboys' board, the player Dallas had passed on because, in Landry's words, "We don't really need another quarterback."

His name was Joe Montana.

Thank God they blew that one!

I'll go so far as to say ALWAYS TAKE TALENT OVER NEED IN THE DRAFT. AMASS ALL THE YOUNG TALENT YOU CAN. YOUR SO-CALLED NEEDS CAN BE FILLED BY GUYS WHO WANT TO COME PLAY WITH YOUR TALENT.

This is especially true for the 'Skins since we have SO MANY HOLES TO FILL.

DarthMonk (call me Vinny if you want - good philosophy horribly implemented by him)

Agreed! The warnings about Devin Thomas' lack of experience and Malcolm Kelly's knees were there. In effect they weren't the most talented. Vinny's most talented philosophy was right on with Fred Davis, but we have yet to exploit teams with his talent in the 2 TE set. That has yet to be explained. When he filled in for Cool

ey in 2009, he showed his true worth.

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:59 pm

gay4pacman wrote:
ICEMAN wrote:
gay4pacman wrote:Green please. Jones has the dropsies. Dropsies don't get better when you get in the NFL....they get worse.

Have you ever heard of a guy by name of Jerry Rice? His first year in the league, dropping balls is all he did.

My point again...Julio Jones!!!

exceptions to the rule. There are 1000's of guys whose bad hands held them back from doing anything in the league, or making the league for that matter. Not saying J. Jones is one of those guys, but....i am not willing to take that chance. Green is a lot safer pick and the draft will show that.

While I agree that Green is the safer pick, I don't believe he'll be there when we pick.

Jones would likely be an exception... he's not "50-50" Rod Gardner. He has a reputation for working his tail off, and loves being coached "hard". His excellent 40 times at the combine came despite a fractured bone in his foot. This kid is talented, hard working, tough, humble, AND coachable... a very rare combination.
If he's there, you really have to take him. If you don't, you will regret it.

VetSkinsFan · Post by **VetSkinsFan** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:17 am

Countertrey wrote:
gay4pacman wrote:
ICEMAN wrote:
gay4pacman wrote:Green please. Jones has the dropsies. Dropsies don't get better when you get in the NFL....they get worse.

Have you ever heard of a guy by name of Jerry Rice? His first year in the league, dropping balls is all he did.

My point again...Julio Jones!!!

exceptions to the rule. There are 1000's of guys whose bad hands held them back from doing anything in the league, or making the league for that matter. Not saying J. Jones is one of those guys, but....i am not willing to take that chance. Green is a lot safer pick and the draft will show that.

While I agree that Green is the safer pick, I don't believe he'll be there when we pick.

Jones would likely be an exception... he's not "50-50" Rod Gardner. He has a reputation for working his tail off, and loves being coached "hard". His excellent 40 times at the combine came despite a fractured bone in his foot. This kid is talented, hard working, tough, humble, AND coachable... a very rare combination.
If he's there, you really have to take him. If you don't, you will regret it.

ICEMAN · Post by **ICEMAN** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:58 pm

Julio Jones it is!!!!

HTTR

langleyparkjoe · Post by **langleyparkjoe** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:43 pm

ICEMAN wrote:Julio Jones it is!!!!

I must agree. JewLeo Jones

emoses14 · Post by **emoses14** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:33 am

Julio Jones (because AJ won't be there; but if he is, AJ Green; but he won't; I don't think [-o<

)!

I also wouldn't be upset if we took Von Miller, Marcell Dareous or Patrick Peterson, but like Canes said earlier, I highly doubt they'll be around.

SO LET"S GO JULIO! :celebrate:

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:59 am

I've seen mock drafts where they will be gone by #10.

Lets hope for that, to protect us from being tempted by a bright shiny toy, instead of getting a more valuable football player.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:44 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:I've seen mock drafts where they will be gone by #10.

Lets hope for that, to protect us from being tempted by a bright shiny toy, instead of getting a more valuable football player.

Let's hope not! That bright shiny toy is our only ticket to trade down and get more picks.

(My original post of said "trading up." It stands corrected as "trading down" after editing. Thanks Countertrey)

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:57 pm

I think you mean trade down...

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:05 pm

Countertrey wrote:I think you mean trade down...

I think that you are absolutely correct. Thanks!

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:52 pm

Red_One43 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:I've seen mock drafts where they will be gone by #10.

Lets hope for that, to protect us from being tempted by a bright shiny toy, instead of getting a more valuable football player.

Let's hope not! That bright shiny toy is our only ticket to trade down and get more picks.

(My original post of said "trading up." It stands corrected as "trading down" after editing. Thanks Countertrey)

Why would anyone trade up to get a wr?

That would be moronic. You would have to need absolutely nothing else. Drafting WRs in the top 10 is the dumb stuff that Matt Millen did that got him canned. Three high picks used on WRs in 4 or 5 years and he only got one good player out of it. A lot of good that stud WR has done for the Lions! Without him they might have only won 7 games in the last 3 years instead of eight.

WRs just can't be on your board when you're picking that high.

DarthMonk · Post by **DarthMonk** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:57 pm

It really all depends whom you pick.

2001 Millen started by drafting a tackle named Jeff Backus @ #18. The Colts took Reggie Wayne @ #30.

2002 Millen picks QB Joey Harrington @ #3. Pac then takes Javon Walker @ #20.

2003 Millen picks WR Charles Rogers @ #2. Texans follow them by taking WR Andre Johnson @ #3.

2004 Millen picks WR Roy Williams @ #7. The pick @ #3 was Larry Fitzgerald. I think that would have been a good choice by Millen had he had the 3rd pick.

2005 Millen picks WR Mike Williams @ #10. The Falcons then take Roddy White @ #27.

2006 Millen picks OLB Ernie Sims @ #9. The Steelers take Santonio Holmes @ #25.

2007 Millen hits with Calvin Johnson @ #2.

2008 Millen finishes by taking T Gosder Cherilus @ #17. Meanwhile the Eagles grab DeSean Jackson # 49.

Granted, very few of the great WR picks were top 10 picks but 2 of the top 10s are superstars worthy of being picked there.

The real question is who is available and how good is he? If only average interior guys are available but a star WR is then take the WR.

Julio Jones may end up being a bad pick but it won't simply be because he is a WR. It will be because a better guy was available at a different position. If you know who that guy is you are the man.

I essentially agree with your stance but every draft is different. Millen simply sucked. Picking WRs early isn't necessarily dumb. Picking the ones he did when he did (for the most part) was dumb.

DarthMonk

skinsfan#33 wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:I've seen mock drafts where they will be gone by #10.

Lets hope for that, to protect us from being tempted by a bright shiny toy, instead of getting a more valuable football player.

Let's hope not! That bright shiny toy is our only ticket to trade down and get more picks.

(My original post of said "trading up." It stands corrected as "trading down" after editing. Thanks Countertrey)

Why would anyone trade up to get a wr?

That would be moronic. You would have to need absolutely nothing else. Drafting WRs in the top 10 is the dumb stuff that Matt Millen did that got him canned. Three high picks used on WRs in 4 or 5 years and he only got one good player out of it. A lot of good that stud WR has done for the Lions! Without him they might have only won 7 games in the last 3 years instead of eight.

WRs just can't be on your board when you're picking that high.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:47 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:I've seen mock drafts where they will be gone by #10.

Lets hope for that, to protect us from being tempted by a bright shiny toy, instead of getting a more valuable football player.

Let's hope not! That bright shiny toy is our only ticket to trade down and get more picks.

(My original post of said "trading up." It stands corrected as "trading down" after editing. Thanks Countertrey)

Why would anyone trade up to get a wr?

That would be moronic. You would have to need absolutely nothing else. Drafting WRs in the top 10 is the dumb stuff that Matt Millen did that got him canned. Three high picks used on WRs in 4 or 5 years and he only got one good player out of it. A lot of good that stud WR has done for the Lions! Without him they might have only won 7 games in the last 3 years instead of eight.

WRs just can't be on your board when you're picking that high.

I will defer to Darthmonk (Man, did he do his homework!) with two addtitions, it is believed that the Rams covet this Julio Jones. Based on the old draft formula, it would cost them their 1st and 3rd for our first. Though the Patriots don't usually trade draft choices - they are loaded. They might want a big receiver to bring back the glory days of Randy Moss except without the character issues. Look at what the Pats have in this year's draft.

New England Patriots 9 1/17 (from OAK), 1/28, 2/1 (from CAR), 2/28, 3/10 (from MIN), 3/28, 4/28, 5/28, 6/24 (from NO)

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:34 am

As I've said, I think they're both gone by the time we pick

I could care less about the position or the fact that we need good players at just about EVERY position - the FO has to take the player that is best for the franchise

by that I mean that I hope if Jones is there that another franchise will make a trade for him - I also hope that if he's not there that we take the player that best helps this franchise for a long time

this franchise has so many needs - we really need these guys to make good choices and find players that can be very good for many years

I prefer to think that it's not all on the player that he doesn't work out being very good either - in many cases a player ends up in a system and is coached in a way that is not conducive - these are some very talented athletes

Millen did make a lot of very bad choices but the reality is that franchise ALSO had really bad talent evaluators with little to no knowledge of what players could best help their team - it's not all Millen's fault, is all - I think in every draft there are a number of players that you can look at in hindsight and see that they were completely mis-judged by just about every franchise - that's the NFL draft every year :roll:

the good news for us is that we're picking at 10 and while we hope to trade out of that slot, we really have a great chance to pick someone that can help our franchise for many years to come - I have no problem with that being Jones if that player is available and Mike & Bruce think he's going to be special - I do too

langleyparkjoe · Post by **langleyparkjoe** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:53 am

just dawned on me, these guys aren't skins, maybe this should be in draft or gm section?

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:27 am

Red_One43 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:I've seen mock drafts where they will be gone by #10.

Lets hope for that, to protect us from being tempted by a bright shiny toy, instead of getting a more valuable football player.

Let's hope not! That bright shiny toy is our only ticket to trade down and get more picks.

(My original post of said "trading up." It stands corrected as "trading down" after editing. Thanks Countertrey)

Why would anyone trade up to get a wr?

That would be moronic. You would have to need absolutely nothing else. Drafting WRs in the top 10 is the dumb stuff that Matt Millen did that got him canned. Three high picks used on WRs in 4 or 5 years and he only got one good player out of it. A lot of good that stud WR has done for the Lions! Without him they might have only won 7 games in the last 3 years instead of eight.

WRs just can't be on your board when you're picking that high.

I will defer to Darthmonk (Man, did he do his homework!) with two addtitions, it is believed that the Rams covet this Julio Jones. Based on the old draft formula, it would cost them their 1st and 3rd for our first. Though the Patriots don't usually trade draft choices - they are loaded. They might want a big receiver to bring back the glory days of Randy Moss except without the character issues. Look at what the Pats have in this year's draft.

New England Patriots 9 1/17 (from OAK), 1/28, 2/1 (from CAR), 2/28, 3/10 (from MIN), 3/28, 4/28, 5/28, 6/24 (from NO)

Boy, I hope UR right, because I would laugh my tail off if we can snooker someone into giving us extra choices to get a WR. ROTFALMAO

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:50 am

DarthMonk wrote:It really all depends whom you pick.

2001 Millen started by drafting a tackle named Jeff Backus @ #18. The Colts took Reggie Wayne @ #30.

2002 Millen picks QB Joey Harrington @ #3. Pac then takes Javon Walker @ #20.

2003 Millen picks WR Charles Rogers @ #2. Texans follow them by taking WR Andre Johnson @ #3.

2004 Millen picks WR Roy Williams @ #7. The pick @ #3 was Larry Fitzgerald. I think that would have been a good choice by Millen had he had the 3rd pick.

2005 Millen picks WR Mike Williams @ #10. The Falcons then take Roddy White @ #27.

2006 Millen picks OLB Ernie Sims @ #9. The Steelers take Santonio Holmes @ #25.

2007 Millen hits with Calvin Johnson @ #2.

2008 Millen finishes by taking T Gosder Cherilus @ #17. Meanwhile the Eagles grab DeSean Jackson # 49.

Granted, very few of the great WR picks were top 10 picks but 2 of the top 10s are superstars worthy of being picked there.

The real question is who is available and how good is he? If only average interior guys are available but a star WR is then take the WR.

Julio Jones may end up being a bad pick but it won't simply be because he is a WR. It will be because a better guy was available at a different position. If you know who that guy is you are the man.

I essentially agree with your stance but every draft is different. Millen simply sucked. Picking WRs early isn't necessarily dumb. Picking the ones he did when he did (for the most part) was dumb.

DarthMonk

skinsfan#33 wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:I've seen mock drafts where they will be gone by #10.

Lets hope for that, to protect us from being tempted by a bright shiny toy, instead of getting a more valuable football player.

Let's hope not! That bright shiny toy is our only ticket to trade down and get more picks.

(My original post of said "trading up." It stands corrected as "trading down" after editing. Thanks Countertrey)

Why would anyone trade up to get a wr?

That would be moronic. You would have to need absolutely nothing else. Drafting WRs in the top 10 is the dumb stuff that Matt Millen did that got him canned. Three high picks used on WRs in 4 or 5 years and he only got one good player out of it. A lot of good that stud WR has done for the Lions! Without him they might have only won 7 games in the last 3 years instead of eight.

WRs just can't be on your board when you're picking that high.

Millen could have picked Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Jevon Walker instead of Mike Williams and Roy Williams and the Lions wouldn't have improved as much as they did by just taking Suh last year!

Even when you hit a home run with a WR you don't bennifit as much as hitting a tripple at many other positions or even hitting a double at QB.

Great WRs like any other player can be taken all over the draft, the difference is too many other thing have to be just right for a WR to make an impact on a team. If your team is that good, then they are probably a SB contender already.

A great WR on a bad team will simply be that, a great WR on a bad team! Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Roddy White, and Jevon Walker all prove that. They simply don't make an impact on their team until they have a good team around them.

And yes the same can be said for other possitions, but you can win w/o great WRs, but you can't win w/o a good QB, a running game, and OL, and a pass rush.

TCIYM · Post by **TCIYM** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:52 am

Evan Silva of PFT and RotoWorld, also a lifelong St. Louis fan, says their GM is far more likely to trade down than he is to trade up for Julio Jones. Silva says he has no history of trading away picks and that St Louis has more needs than just a WR. He says he sees the Redskins taking Jones, despite the lack of a QB.

Red_One43 · Post by **Red_One43** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:04 am

TCIYM wrote:Evan Silva of PFT and RotoWorld, also a lifelong St. Louis fan, says their GM is far more likely to trade down than he is to trade up for Julio Jones. Silva says he has no history of trading away picks and that St Louis has more needs than just a WR. He says he sees the Redskins taking Jones, despite the lack of a QB.

Well, there goes my theory, unless they are bluffing, but highly unlikely form what you said and my hopes of a Patriot trade are unlikely as well due to their history. Looks like we will be drafting at #10 and Julio looks like the most likely pick.

TCIYM · Post by **TCIYM** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:15 pm

Red_One43 wrote:
TCIYM wrote:Evan Silva of PFT and RotoWorld, also a lifelong St. Louis fan, says their GM is far more likely to trade down than he is to trade up for Julio Jones. Silva says he has no history of trading away picks and that St Louis has more needs than just a WR. He says he sees the Redskins taking Jones, despite the lack of a QB.

Well, there goes my theory, unless they are bluffing, but highly unlikely form what you said and my hopes of a Patriot trade are unlikely as well due to their history. Looks like we will be drafting at #10 and Julio looks like the most likely pick.

Well, that's just one opinion but Silva is highly respected among the draft community. The way I look at it is he can't be any more off base than Kiper usually is. :lol:

DarthMonk · Post by **DarthMonk** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:43 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:Millen could have picked Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Jevon Walker instead of Mike Williams and Roy Williams and the Lions wouldn't have improved as much as they did by just taking Suh last year!

Agreed!

And if a Suh is available at #10 tell me his name and I'll pull for that mofo!

What I don't want to see happen is us get an average OL, DL, or LB instead of a stud at another position. A triple at one of those positons would be OK but no singles please.

PS - My druthers are to trade down.

DarthMonk

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:53 am

DarthMonk wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Millen could have picked Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Jevon Walker instead of Mike Williams and Roy Williams and the Lions wouldn't have improved as much as they did by just taking Suh last year!

Agreed!

And if a Suh is available at #10 tell me his name and I'll pull for that mofo!

What I don't want to see happen is us get an average OL, DL, or LB instead of a stud at another position. A triple at one of those positons would be OK but no singles please.

PS - My druthers are to trade down.

DarthMonk

I agree with everything you just said.

DarthMonk · Post by **DarthMonk** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:08 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Millen could have picked Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Jevon Walker instead of Mike Williams and Roy Williams and the Lions wouldn't have improved as much as they did by just taking Suh last year!

Agreed!

And if a Suh is available at #10 tell me his name and I'll pull for that mofo!

What I don't want to see happen is us get an average OL, DL, or LB instead of a stud at another position. A triple at one of those positons would be OK but no singles please.

PS - My druthers are to trade down.

DarthMonk

I agree with everything you just said.

... and Sammy Baugh ROCKS!

DarthMonk

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:26 pm

DarthMonk wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Millen could have picked Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Jevon Walker instead of Mike Williams and Roy Williams and the Lions wouldn't have improved as much as they did by just taking Suh last year!

Agreed!

And if a Suh is available at #10 tell me his name and I'll pull for that mofo!

What I don't want to see happen is us get an average OL, DL, or LB instead of a stud at another position. A triple at one of those positons would be OK but no singles please.

PS - My druthers are to trade down.

DarthMonk

I agree with everything you just said.

... and Sammy Baugh ROCKS!

DarthMonk

Yes, he does. RIP.