Two Words of Hope.....

[VetSkinsFan]

I don't see S or LB as a sufficient need to waste a Top 10 pick on. In that case I'd rather trade down.

Safety is our biggest hole on defense. We are lacking a starting-quality FS and we need depth in both positions. The last two safeties we selected in the top 10 have done great, so I don't see why picking up another would be abhorrent.

I'd argue that NT is almost as big of a deficiency as FS, almost.

[Irn-Bru]

I don't see S or LB as a sufficient need to waste a Top 10 pick on. In that case I'd rather trade down.

Safety is our biggest hole on defense. We are lacking a starting-quality FS and we need depth in both positions. The last two safeties we selected in the top 10 have done great, so I don't see why picking up another would be abhorrent.

I'd argue that NT is almost as big of a deficiency as FS, almost.

I agree.

[TCIYM]

Offensive and Defensive Line would be my priorities, fullback, free safety, cornerback, wide receiver, quarterback are all on the list. My contention is that teams don't draft weak side offensive or defensive linemen with a high first round draft pick. What are the odds that a right tackle or a 3-4 defensive end are going to be the best available player, even at a position of need when you are drafting top ten? I will admit I would like to see controlled free agency, for example, the Redskins should pursue Vincent Jackson, as he is only 27, is a proven commodity, and is absolutely a position of need.

[Redskins_Fanatic]

Well that pretty much describes the Redskins over the last decade. Build through free agency, especially by trading away picks, and then go with the draft if you have a high pick.

Yes it does. It's the way I prefer to see a team built. I'm actually concerned at this point that Shanahan and Allen are going to move away from it. I just don't have any faith in rookies and unproven players. I'd rather spend on a guy who has already proven he can play in the league than to take a shot on someone who might be a total bust.

Fortunately, we usually had a high pick, because that strategy absolutely fails. You can keep your free agent acquisitions and high draft picks. I prefer the method used by the most successful teams of the last decade (Pats, Indy, Philly), which is to build through the draft — especially for quality depth at cheap prices.

That's fine. You can keep your Tom Brady's and the rest of that ilk. I am at total philosophical odds with the entire way the NFL is run these days and what is necessary to be "successful" in the league. That's why I always was a fan of Dan Synder - He seemed to be willing to buck the trend. If he's given in (which I think he has), then I'm going to find it much more difficult to be a Redskins fan from now on.

[Redskins_Fanatic]

I'd argue that NT is almost as big of a deficiency as FS, almost.

I would argue that it's a much LARGER deficiency than our issues at FS. I'd also suggest that CB is a larger deficiency than FS if we're just talking about the defensive backfield.

[TCIYM]

I'd argue that NT is almost as big of a deficiency as FS, almost.

A top priority, in my opinion. Kemoeatu is in his 9th year, coming off a major injury, playing a position that is quite possibly the most physically demanding in the game, with no qualified backup.

[SkinsJock]

... I hate draft picks and rookies in general for the most part. I'd rather trade away the picks for proven talent.
I never pay attention to more than the first round of the draft.

Again, I'm a bigger believer in building through FA unless you've got a high first round pick. I just don't believe you can tell enough about how college guys will do in the NFL to make the game of Russian Roulette called the draft be worthwhile except at the top of the first round.

WOW

I'm certainly glad we will not be following your advice - that is such a stupid assertion - where on earth did you come up with that BS

[Countertrey]

I'm going to find it much more difficult to be a Redskins fan from now on.

Is this like a deposit on "I quit"?

[langleyparkjoe]

for example, the Redskins should pursue Vincent Jackson, as he is only 27, is a proven commodity, and is absolutely a position of need.

Now that's what I'm talking about!!!!

..you'll have fans say "he's too much trouble" and won't want him here. I on the other hand agree with you and we wouldn't have to use what little picks we have left.

[TCIYM]

I'm going to find it much more difficult to be a Redskins fan from now on.

Difficult enough to find another board to concern troll? Post after post after post of negativity isn't fanaticism. It's cynicism.

[Irn-Bru]

I'm going to find it much more difficult to be a Redskins fan from now on.

Difficult enough to find another board to concern troll? Post after post after post of negativity isn't fanaticism. It's cynicism.

TCIYM, looks like you've been a member for a while but only recently started posting. Let me remind you, and those others participating in the discussion, that THN does not allow personal attacks outside of the Smack Forum.

Just a general reminder to everyone, since we have a few newbies running around. Please keep it clean and address only the post.

Thanks.

[Redskins_Fanatic]

WOW

I'm certainly glad we will not be following your advice - that is such a stupid assertion - where on earth did you come up with that BS

It's what I've always believed. I'm not a fan of "rebuilding" and never have been. I thought Snyder shared that philosophy but recently I'm not so sure anymore. That has made me think much less of him in the last year or so than I did in the past.

I am not a fan of the way the NFL works these days and probably never will be again. Thankfully I can still hope the Redskins continue to buck the trend. If not my only other even potential option would be Al Davis and the Raiders. Not that I could ever root for another team, but they would be the only other one I could have even considered.

[TCIYM]

It's what I've always believed. I'm not a fan of "rebuilding" and never have been. I thought Snyder shared that philosophy but recently I'm not so sure anymore. That has made me think much less of him in the last year or so than I did in the past.

I am not a fan of the way the NFL works these days and probably never will be again. Thankfully I can still hope the Redskins continue to buck the trend. If not my only other even potential option would be Al Davis and the Raiders. Not that I could ever root for another team, but they would be the only other one I could have even considered.

So what do you suggest? Another non-salary cap era of non-competition where one team dynasties rule the league for decades each? 49ers, Redskins, Cowboys, Patriots, and damn the rest of the league? Who cares about revenue sharing anyway, even if it does affect the ability of the league to survive as a 32 team entity? At least there would be no limit to the number of $100 Million players who don't fit the system and have no concept of team that the "Haves" could sign. Removing a salary cap doesn't make anyone more intelligent as to making football decisions. There aren't a lot of Bobby Beathards running around, and even if there were most of those teams were a very good combination of drafted players and free agents. Joe Jacoby, perhaps the most import of those players, was undrafted.

Looking for quick solutions and perfection is a pipedream, not a reality.

[Redskins_Fanatic]

Is this like a deposit on "I quit"?

Pretty much. No team that I follow is ever more than a significant mistake/failure or two away from being a team that I USED to follow.

[Redskins_Fanatic]

So what do you suggest? Another non-salary cap era of non-competition where one team dynasties rule the league for decades each? 49ers, Redskins, Cowboys, Patriots, and damn the rest of the league? Who cares about revenue sharing anyway, even if it does affect the ability of the league to survive as a 32 team entity? At least there would be no limit to the number of $100 Million players who don't fit the system and have no concept of team that the "Haves" could sign. Removing a salary cap doesn't make anyone more intelligent as to making football decisions. There aren't a lot of Bobby Beathards running around, and even if there were most of those teams were a very good combination of drafted players and free agents. Joe Jacoby, perhaps the most import of those players, was undrafted.

Looking for quick solutions and perfection is a pipedream, not a reality.

You pretty much hit on my preference perfectly. I'd like to go back to a 24 team league with a Strong Team -Weak League philosophy like we had pre-1994.

[Irn-Bru]

Is this like a deposit on "I quit"?

Pretty much. No team that I follow is ever more than a significant mistake/failure or two away from being a team that I USED to follow.

Have you ever considered the irony in your choice of screen name?

[Redskins_Fanatic]

Have you ever considered the irony in your choice of screen name?

Fanaticism is not always a positive thing. It is simply the idea of a particular concept or subject over-riding the good sense of an individual related to that subject. The Christian crusaders were FANATICS about "freeing" the holy land. John Hinkley was a fanatic about his interest in that actress he was trying to impress. It's not always a positive thing.

Just for clarification.... I would never do anything violent to another person over a sporting event. I just wanted to use two clear examples of negative fanaticism.

[DarthMonk]

That's an issue for me because I hate draft picks and rookies in general for the most part. I'd rather trade away the picks for proven talent. I never pay attention to more than the first round of the draft.

Translation: I have enjoyed sucking for the last 10+ years and want to continue to suck. I enjoy having an aging overpaid team with no depth and also enjoy contradicting myself by simultaneously saying we should strive for excellence.

Again, I'm a bigger believer in building through FA unless you've got a high first round pick. I just don't believe you can tell enough about how college guys will do in the NFL to make the game of Russian Roulette called the draft be worthwhile except at the top of the first round.

Translation: The Patriots, Steelers, and Eagles are simply lucky since they trade away or simply release aging FAs, draft 10+ players a year, stay young, coach them, and are good year after year.



For those inerested in the truly ridiculous nature of this concept (5-minute read):

Imagine for a moment a Washington Redskins offense quarterbacked by Tony Romo, who hands off to LeSean McCoy and throws to Brandon Marshall and Wes Welker. The Redskins center is Dan Koppen with Michael Roos and Jermon Bushrod the bookend tackles. On defense, Trent Cole and Jared Allen zero in on the opposing quarterback from their defensive end spots with linebacker Manny Lawson coming off the edge on blitzes. Cornerback Asante Samuel and safeties Bob Sanders and Troy Polumalu patrol the secondary.

However, instead of being able to draft these players, the Redskins have made a habit out of trading away draft picks. In fact, it’s beyond a habit, it’s an addiction.

Each of the players above was available when a pick that the Redskins had traded away for a player came up on draft day. They were all selected either with the pick that originally belonged to Washington or with a pick later in the same round. The only exceptions are Romo and Welker, who were undrafted free agents in years that the Redskins dealt away a seventh-round pick.

The Redskins traded away those picks, and from the players acquired in those trades, you could field a team of Mark Brunell at quarterback handing off to Trung Canidate and T. J. Duckett, and throwing to James Thrash and Brandon Lloyd. Clearing the way in the interior we have guards Brenden Stai and Pete Kendall. On defense, there is Jason Taylor enjoying a cup of coffee at defensive end, while the tackles are Lional Dalton and Martin Chase. Matt Bowen is at safety.

You only have to go back through the eight drafts that have taken place since 2003 to find the Redskins’ lost treasure trove of talent. In all, since 2003, the Redskins have traded away 22 draft picks for players. Since you get seven picks per draft, Washington has essentially sat out three full years of drafting in the past eight.

Here is a look at the deals, and what might have been.

First round

2003 to the Jets for WR Laveranues Coles—This was a restricted free agent deal with the Jets. The Redskins signed Coles to an offer sheet for $35 million over seven years including $13 million guaranteed. New York declined to match the offer and instead took the Redskins’ first-round pick, the 13th overall, as compensation. The selection wound up with the Patriots, who selected defensive end Ty Warren, who has been a very productive player, a solid starter from his second year until this season, when a hip injury landed him on injured reserve. Safety Troy Polamalu and tight end Dallas Clark were selected in the next 11 picks. Coles had two good seasons for the Redskins before becoming disgruntled and being traded back to the Jets for Santana Moss.

Second round

2004 along with CB Champ Bailey to Broncos for RB Clinton Portis—The fact that the second-round pick had to go along with the better player at the more valuable position to get Portis has stuck in the craw of Redskins fans since the day the deal happened. It has been argued that the Redskins were facing a limited market for Bailey and the huge contract he demanded and Mike Shanahan and the Broncos had them over a barrel. But perhaps if they had waited a while, they could have gotten the deal done with either a lower draft pick thrown in or with no pick at all. The Broncos drafted running back Tatum Bell with the pick. Starting three picks later, safety Bob Sanders, center Jake Grove, and guard Justin Smiley were selected in succession.

2009 along with a 2010 sixth-round pick to Dolphins for DE Jason Taylor—Minutes after starting defensive end Phillip Daniels was carted off of the field with a season-ending knee injury, Vinny Cerrato was on the phone to Miami to nail down this trade. Not that there isn’t some competition, but this may have been the worst panic move of this era. Taylor was not suited to playing in the Redskins’ 4-3 defense and the Redskins expended a second-round pick for a player in the twilight of his career. Sure enough, he was one and done in Washington. The Dolphins didn’t get much out of the pick, taking West Virginia quarterback Pat White, but selected later in the second round were RB LeSean McCoy and OT Phil Loadholt. The presence of Loadholt, in particular, would have helped as the Redskins would not have had to expend a 2011 pick on Jammal Brown.

2010 along with a 2011 third or fourth to Eagles for QB Donovan McNabb—The Eagles took safety Nate Allen with the pick for McNabb. Perhaps drafting Colt McCoy of Texas, who has played well for the Browns, would have been a better move, time will tell.

Third round

2004 to Jaguars for QB Mark Brunell—Like the second-round pick in the same draft that went in the Portis deal, this one is a head scratcher. Jacksonville was moving on from Brunell and they allowed the Redskins to negotiate a deal with him prior to the start of the league year. It was widely assumed that the Jags would release Brunell and he immediately would sign with Washington. But when the deal was done, the Redskins had sent the Jaguars their third-round pick for a player that was about to be released. The Packers ended up with the pick and took defensive tackle Donnell Washington. Ten picks later, the Redskins recouped a third by send the Saints their 2005 second to New Orleans and the used that pick to take Chris ey. So, in essence, the Redskins expended their ’05 second round pick for Brunell. New Orleans used the pick to draft safety Josh Bullocks. The Titans picked next and took Michael Roos, who still is their starting left tackle.

2005 and 2006 first and fourth to Broncos for 2005 first—This was the pick used to take Jason Campbell. This deal is not listed under first-round picks expended as they basically sent the third- and fourth-rounders to use their ’06 first a year early. Denver dealt the ’06 first round pick to the 49ers and they took LB Manny Lawson. With the 2006 fourth-round pick the Broncos got WR Brandon Marshall, who would have scratched the itch the Redskins had for a big, productive wide receiver. Or, the Redskins could have taken DE Elvis Dumerville, who the Broncos took with their own pick seven selections later.

2006 plus 2007 fourth to 49ers for WR Brandon Lloyd—This was another restricted free agent deal .Lloyd was a bust here and in Chicago before moving on to Denver to play at a Pro Bowl level this year. The 49ers didn’t get much for the picks but 20 picks after San Francisco took DE Jay Moore in the fourth in 2007, New Orleans selected OT Jermon Bushrod. His performance starting at left tackle during the Saints’ Super Bowl run last year enabled the Saints to trade Jammal Brown to the Redskins.

2007 plus 2008 fourth to Broncos for RB T. J. Duckett—This was a three-way deal that sent Denver WR Ashley Lelie to Atlanta and Duckett from the Falcons to the Redskins. Portis had been injured in the preseason and for some reason Joe Gibbs didn’t trust Ladell Betts to handle the load until Portis could return. Duckett played in just 10 games and gained 132 yards and scored two touchdowns. With the ’07 third round pick, the Broncos took OT Ryan Harris, who is their starting right tackle.

Fourth round

2003 to Rams for RB Trung Canidate—The Redskins got one 600-yard season out of Canidate. Meanwhile, the Patriots took CB Asante Samuel later in the fourth round.

2004 to Patriots for KR Chad Morton—Morton actually came from the Jets as a restricted free agent and Washington had to trade for a 2003 fifth-rounder to get a pick to compensate New York. Washington ended up giving up its 2004 fourth in the deal. Late in that fourth round, the Chiefs too Pro Bowl defensive end Jared Allen.

2009 to Jets for G Pete Kendall—The Redskins got two competent years out of Kendall as a starter.

Fifth round

2003 to Detroit for G Brenden Stai—The Redskins got five starts out of Stai before he was injured and released after the season. On the board when the Redskins would have picked in the fifth round in ’03 were OT David Diehl and C Dan Koppen, Pro Bowl performers for the Giants and Patriots, respectively.

2005 to Eagles for James Thrash—Thrash was a nice player, more so as a special teams player than as a wide receiver. With the pick that Philly got, they took a much better player, Pro Bowl defensive end Trent Cole.

Sixth round

2003 to Packers for S Matt Bowen—This was another restricted free agent deal. With a later pick in the sixth round, the Colts took Pro Bowl linebacker Cato June.

Seventh round

2003 to Broncos for DT Lional Dalton—Dalton played in nine games for the Redskins. No seventh-round gems that year but TE Antonio Gates, QB Tony Romo, and S Quintin Mikell all were undrafted.

2004 to Saints for DT Martin Chase—The Redskins got 13 starts out of Chase. Again, there weren’t any diamonds in the rough taken in the seventh round that year but among the undrafted players were WR Wes Welker, RB Willie Parker, and OT Jason Peters.

2009 to Vikings for DE Erasmus James—Washington again gave up a draft pick for a player who was about to be released. James played in five games for the Redskins.

Friday, December 10, 2010 2:15 PM

By Rich Tandler

DarthMonk

[TCIYM]

You pretty much hit on my preference perfectly. I'd like to go back to a 24 team league with a Strong Team -Weak League philosophy like we had pre-1994.

While that would theoretically make each remaining franchise better it would also theoretically reduce league revenues by 25%. According to Forbes the 2010 revenue figure is $7.8 Billion. Suggesting the league lose nearly $2 Billion annually in addition to having to purchase the franchise rights to any teams it contracts simply isn't feasible. Keep in mind well over half of league revenue is returned to the individual players per the CBA. Good luck lining up the players and getting them to agree to a CBA that causes 25% of them to lose their jobs and the rest to take drastic paycuts.

[SkinsJock]

I'm certainly glad we will not be following your advice - that is such a stupid assertion - where on earth did you come up with that

It's what I've always believed. I'm not a fan of "rebuilding" and never have been. I thought Snyder shared that philosophy but recently I'm not so sure anymore. That has made me think much less of him in the last year or so than I did in the past.
I am not a fan of the way the NFL works these days and probably never will be again. Thankfully I can still hope the Redskins continue to buck the trend. If not my only other even potential option would be Al Davis and the Raiders. Not that I could ever root for another team, but they would be the only other one I could have even considered.

OK - I accept that you'd like to do things a certain way but what I think concerns some of us is that we've kind of tried to do things like that here and it has clearly not worked

I think that having Cerrato & Snyder be in charge was the main problem but I also think that we ended up having a group that was always in the top of the "oldest" age group of players and that generally means you don't have good young depth especially along both lines which is critical both late in games and towards the end of the season - the only way to find young players is to use the draft and not give away picks for players that don't suit what you want to do which has been our problem here

we need to find a way to get younger players on our roster and have both good starters and good depth along both lines - the most critical requirement here IMO being a good offensive line and a good defensive line

I think we use both the reportedly very good FA market and try and add to our draft picks

[Redskins_Fanatic]

While that would theoretically make each remaining franchise better it would also theoretically reduce league revenues by 25%. According to Forbes the 2010 revenue figure is $7.8 Billion. Suggesting the league lose nearly $2 Billion annually in addition to having to purchase the franchise rights to any teams it contracts simply isn't feasible. Keep in mind well over half of league revenue is returned to the individual players per the CBA. Good luck lining up the players and getting them to agree to a CBA that causes 25% of them to lose their jobs and the rest to take drastic paycuts.

Realize that I am a fan of a particular team, not the league as a whole or the sport in general. My preference is the best interests of the Redskins, as I see them, not the NFL, any other team, the NFLPA, or the sport of football.

[Redskins_Fanatic]

OK - I accept that you'd like to do things a certain way but what I think concerns some of us is that we've kind of tried to do things like that here and it has clearly not worked.

Remember that I'm a believer in principles over results. If they're doing things the Right Way (as I see it) they can go 0-16 and I'm fine with it. They could win a Suoer Bowl doing it the Wrong Way and I'd be livid.

It will be interesting to see this offseason and what it means for my ability to continue rooting for this team.

[VetSkinsFan]

Is this like a deposit on "I quit"?

Pretty much. No team that I follow is ever more than a significant mistake/failure or two away from being a team that I USED to follow.

So, do you simply follow the Redskins or are you a fan? I follow a lot of teams; Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Detriot, St. Louis. I am a fan of only one team; The Washington Redskins.

They really are two distinctly different things. I may stop following St Lious, but I'll never stop being a fan of the Washington Redskins.

[Redskins_Fanatic]

Translation: I have enjoyed sucking for the last 10+ years and want to continue to suck. I enjoy having an aging overpaid team with no depth and also enjoy contradicting myself by simultaneously saying we should strive for excellence.

Excellence in my mind comes from certain things beyond simply winning games. It comes from having star players and from decimating your opponents on a weekly basis. It does not come from a menagerie of players who nobody has ever heard of like Danny Woodhead or Wes Welker. So yes, I would rather lose the Right way than win the Wrong way.

Translation: The Patriots, Steelers, and Eagles are simply lucky since they trade away or simply release aging FAs, draft 10+ players a year, stay young, coach them, and are good year after year.

No. They've simply sold their souls in order to "succeed" in the new socialist league that the NFL has turned into since 1994. Parity, "Any team on any given Sunday", the salary cap, etc.... are simply proofs to me that this league sucks now. Regardless of how much money the league and teams make, the product sucks.

[Redskin in Canada]

Two points:

1) Enough of attention to the self-serving poster who thinks that all of these posts are about HIM. I had enough of his self-serving quest for attention and baby-seating.

2) It is a sad indictment of the season when threads that belong in the Draft of the Offseason start several weeks ahead of the end of the regular season. The needs of the team are clear. I just rather focus right now on what is worth keeping among the members of the current roster and i see only a few ... sadly.

But even the most talented team cannot succeed if the coaches do not play to the strengths of the team. Coaching has to evolve and change too. They need to have a vision and take the team where it needs to go.

I am not sure Hasleet will stay with us but if he does, he only gets another season to make a good difference.