Jake Plummer sounds off

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Jake Plummer sounds off

Post by Skinsfan55 »

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/s ... yerId=1177

“I had a coach that, regardless of how well I thought I was playing or how well the majority of fans across the country thought I was playing, it was never good enough for him," Plummer said. “And that kind of gets frustrating …It just seemed like every game I could have completed these four more passes or these five more shots here and it would have been perfect. And that just wasn't my personality... But Shanahan wanted perfection and he wore a lot of us down there."


I am sure Jake Plummer is accurate here. Shanahan strikes me as a perfectionist taskmaster but is that all bad? He demands a lot from his quarterbacks. He had a hall of famer in Elway but since John Elway retired he got production from Brian Griese and Jake Plummer that was never duplicated. Both had, by far their best years under Shanny and the Broncos were 76-52 during the years between Elway and Cutler.

Plummer and Griese both made the Pro-Bowl under Shanahan and the Broncos were a really good football team during that time. It doesn't seem like Plummer would have a lot to complain about. Is it so wrong that in everything you do there's always room for improvement?
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Re: Jake Plummer sounds off

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Skinsfan55 wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=1177

“I had a coach that, regardless of how well I thought I was playing or how well the majority of fans across the country thought I was playing, it was never good enough for him," Plummer said. “And that kind of gets frustrating …It just seemed like every game I could have completed these four more passes or these five more shots here and it would have been perfect. And that just wasn't my personality... But Shanahan wanted perfection and he wore a lot of us down there."


I am sure Jake Plummer is accurate here. Shanahan strikes me as a perfectionist taskmaster but is that all bad? He demands a lot from his quarterbacks. He had a hall of famer in Elway but since John Elway retired he got production from Brian Griese and Jake Plummer that was never duplicated. Both had, by far their best years under Shanny and the Broncos were 76-52 during the years between Elway and Cutler.

Plummer and Griese both made the Pro-Bowl under Shanahan and the Broncos were a really good football team during that time. It doesn't seem like Plummer would have a lot to complain about. Is it so wrong that in everything you do there's always room for improvement?


If Jake Plummer were standing in front of me, wearing a bright blue leisure suit, and a duck on his head, telling me how much he likes the '70's and water birds... I don't know if I'd believe him.

He's Jake Plummer. Hey, Jake... if you were Peyton Manning, he'd still be critiqueing your performance. The objective is to get better, even when you are on top.

OTOH... He's Jake Plummer. :wink:
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Post by SkinsJock »

^^^ good point trey

Plummer never really met the expectations and I think the worst part was that he knew he had a lot of the intangibles, he just couldn't get to that next level consistently
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Re: Jake Plummer sounds off

Post by Redskin in Canada »

Skinsfan55 wrote:Is it so wrong that in everything you do there's always room for improvement?
Of course NOT.

THAT is the job of acoach. The minute they stop to try to get better, thing go dowsn.

If this is a critcism attempt, it is most likely to backfire on Jake ...
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Post by Deadskins »

But really, how tough a division was the AFC West in those years anyway? This is the NFC East, and you have to play a more smashmouth game. It's like in the '80s when the 49ers had to play 2 games against the Falcons, the Saints, and the Rams every year. That's a cakewalk to the playoffs, and healthy teams to boot.
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Post by chiefhog44 »

Mike: Jake, I think you played a perfect game. Even though you had an average QB rating, and we lost the game, it wasn't because of you. Really no room for improvement in my mind. See you next week bud, and Jake...you're a STAR!
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Post by roybus14 »

I think that there are several things that people are forgetting about the Shanahan-Elway era. Shanahan inherited an already great QB.

Dan Reeves coached Elway from 83 to 92'. Then Wade Phillips had him for two seasons until Shanahan arrived in 94. So Dan was really responsible for Elway, Shanny just got a HOF QB dropped in his lap. Elway built such a legend and following in Denver that Shanny dare not mess with that. Plus, he was humbled a little by Al Davis canning his butt before. It's not out of the realm that part of what Plummer is saying is true. I'm sure that Griese would have similar things to say as well.

When Elway retired Davis had to also because of his knee. After the two SB's it left Shanny's ego where we are seeing it now. A few things to point out:

1. Why was this void at QB for all that time? Griese, Plummer and Cutler were not the answers. And if you look around, you see guys like Rivers, Ryan, Brees and even the youngins like Bradford and Stafford better or getting better. Shanny made it look like he wanted perfection and he developed it with Elway but Elway was already damn near perfect when Shanny got there.

2. There was no revolving door of RBs when Davis was there. He was the one and only guy and when he and Elway retired, Shanny's ego once again didn't allow him to establish anything there either. Portis was it but Shanny's ego felt that he could plug any back into that system and be successful. The system was but he neglected everything else around him all while focusing on "Elway II" and making bad personnel moves.

3. This is not Denver circa 1997-98. He doesn't have Alex Gibbs or any of the other coaches that was on the staff during the two SBs. Maybe it's ego, maybe it's time.
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Post by Countertrey »

^ OTOH, this team has already matched last season's record, with essentially the same level of talent. I have no idea what's in Shanahan's head, but I know it's not time to throw him off the bus.

You don't become a head coach in the NFL without an equivalent ego. It's part of the package. You can pretend all you want that Gibbs was pure humble, but he was not without his "My way or the highway" moments. Shanahan has, over time, been right far more often than he was wrong... and he has yet to be proven wronge here.
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Post by The Hogster »

Apparently Plummer still doesnt get it. I dont mind perfectionism, but I do prefer he stop lying in press conferences.
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Post by SkinsJock »

I agree with you both - Mike has a lot more credibility than Jake

we have improved with this guy as part of the FO and as the HC - I think we'll see that his way of managing and coaching will work

I'm not blindly supporting Mike but I think that this franchise lacked leadership and discipline and while I find his methods a little harsh I think he's going to get his point across here

let's face it - there's still a lot to be done and despite some thinking we'd be better off without him we really know, that's not happening - Mike's going to get the opportunity to show that this franchise can be successful again under his guidance
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
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Post by RayNAustin »

Nuance appears to be a foreign concept to some here.

There is a subtle yet significant difference between "always room for improvement", and "never good enough". The first being a mindset striving to be the best, and very positive, while the other is negative, pessimistic and morally defeating. One is encouraging, the other discouraging.

I think what Plumber was alluding to is exactly what I had tried to explain from my observations thus far, suggesting that Shanahan's rigidness in his approach ignores the psychological aspects of coaching human beings. Everybody is different ... and the best coaches understand that different individuals respond differently to the various types of motivation. Some may require positive reinforcement and encouragement to build the confidence needed to perform at their highest level, while others may need a kick in the rear end now and then to keep them on track. The carrot and the stick. Using the stick on an individual that needs the carrot is a recipe for failure.

The Donovan McNabb situation highlights this perfectly. During his career with the Eagles, McNabb and Reed developed a very close bond ... and you can bet that this relationship and trust allowed McNabb input relative to offensive strategy, dealing directly with the head guy. He was the extension of the head coach, suited up, and on the field of play. He now is faced with having to work with an assistant who is younger than he is, who also happens to be the Coach's son, and likely less experienced, while not having had the time needed to build trust between them. This is an odd dynamic.

His benching in the final 2 minutes of the Detroit game was a grave error on the part of both Shanahans, and was counter productive to the task of building that trust, not just between the coach and player, but between the new leader and his new team. And it is my view that the Detroit game was not nearly as important as the relationship.

Rather than send the clear "no confidence" vote that was issued, Shanahan should have told McNabb ... you've done this many times before in your career, and I have no doubt that you can do it again ... get out there and win this one for us.

Even if he failed, he would have come away from the experience with the confidence that his new team and new coaches trusted his abilities, making him that much more dedicated and determined to live up to that trust in the future.

McNabb is a very unselfish player ... he was one of the first to come over to Grossman after the fumble/TD to offer that encouragement that was denied him moments earlier. I don't know a better example of leadership, nor a better reason for the Redskins, and coach Shanahan to thank their lucky stars that they have a guy like that to lead this team.

Hopefully they'll come to their senses, and realize that.
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Post by Countertrey »

Ray, I think you've done an excellent job of concisely outlining your thoughts. Well done... well considered... valid.

I simply have a hard time accepting the experience of Jake Plummer as representative of the result of harsh coaching. The fact is, Jake never was "good enough". He does not have a resume that shouts "treated unfairly"... He was a character in constant need of "coaching up", and never approached the potential that his talents offered.
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Post by The Hogster »

I don't have problems with Shanahan's reputation as a "hard a$$" or "perfectionist." I'm not even much worried about whether players like him or perceive him as impossible to please. (see Tom Coughlin)

I am more concerned with his trustworthiness as I know that players generally value that trust. His trustworthiness was weakened, not just by his decision to bench McNabb, but by his post-game explanations, probably to a greater extent. It seemed untruthful and bizarre. Shanahan barely reveals the truth on his injury reports or ever discusses anything that could give an opponent a "competitive advantage." So, why was he so effusive and elaborate with these explanations? It seems like he was trying too hard to conceal the real story.

I hope that he doesn't thwart his gains with any loss in effectiveness resulting from this incident.

I am have not been defending Shanahan at all much lately, but to Jake Plummer's point, Shanahan did seem to think highly of Jay Cutler and wound up getting more production out of him than Mike Martz/Lovie Smith did.

Players all love Wade Phillips. We see how that's working out. :lol:
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Post by roybus14 »

Hogster makes a good point. But even "hard-a$$e$" have to tone it down a bit because after a while it becomes "noise." Coughlin is a perfect example. It seems that just when the Giants look like they are about to fall apart, they re-invent themselves and go on a run.

I hear the other points about having to have ego to be at that level and I agree, it's true. This, IMO, is ego + bad decisions = powder-keg. Ray has been very eloquent in his points and summed them up rather nicely.

But now you got Jay Glaser reporting that Kyle wanted to pull the trigger on McNabb before the Philly game and that this coaching staff feels that Donovan is not the guy. My question then is, why'd you bring him here??? If your system requires "X" type of QB, then they should have took a chance on a younger guy who is still learning and molded him into what they wanted. Donovan spent 11 years in one system under Andy Reid and quite frankly, he's an old dog. Put him in a system just like he's used to and you will see better results.

But here is something else funny. Shanahan was asked about the play of the OLine and he's said that they were fine. Unless you were wearing blinders, McNabb was running for his life against Detroit. But it's like Shanahan was intent on making this about McNabb. Detroit didn't have as much success against NY yesterday like they did against us because the Jets OLine is better overall. But it's like Mike is holding McNabb accountable for poor line play too.
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Post by VetSkinsFan »

The Hogster wrote:I don't have problems with Shanahan's reputation as a "hard a$$" or "perfectionist." I'm not even much worried about whether players like him or perceive him as impossible to please. (see Tom Coughlin)

I am more concerned with his trustworthiness as I know that players generally value that trust. His trustworthiness was weakened, not just by his decision to bench McNabb, but by his post-game explanations, probably to a greater extent. It seemed untruthful and bizarre. Shanahan barely reveals the truth on his injury reports or ever discusses anything that could give an opponent a "competitive advantage." So, why was he so effusive and elaborate with these explanations? It seems like he was trying too hard to conceal the real story.

I hope that he doesn't thwart his gains with any loss in effectiveness resulting from this incident.

I am have not been defending Shanahan at all much lately, but to Jake Plummer's point, Shanahan did seem to think highly of Jay Cutler and wound up getting more production out of him than Mike Martz/Lovie Smith did.

Players all love Wade Phillips. We see how that's working out. :lol:


Good post, Hogster.

When I referenced Mike Shanahan as a hardass, it's b/c I feel it's to a fault and that's what I feel he's been doing all year.
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Post by SkinsJock »

I don't think that Shanahan's a player's coach by any stretch - we needed a very strict disciplinarian and Shanahan's all of that - I'm in no way condoning his behaviour or his comments - I just want these guys to be able to move on from that bizarre behaviour

we'll soon hear and see how the players and coaches react

I just don't see this being as big an issue with the locker room as is 'reported' and is being speculated on here, but, we'll soon find out

V big game coming up for many people :wink:
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Post by RayNAustin »

Countertrey wrote:Ray, I think you've done an excellent job of concisely outlining your thoughts. Well done... well considered... valid.

I simply have a hard time accepting the experience of Jake Plummer as representative of the result of harsh coaching. The fact is, Jake never was "good enough". He does not have a resume that shouts "treated unfairly"... He was a character in constant need of "coaching up", and never approached the potential that his talents offered.


Thanks. And ... don't think I would accept the experience or opinion of one player/person (Plumber) as proof of anything. It is just additional evidence which seems to fit with a similar pattern developing here.

Believe me when I say that I really wanted to believe Shanahan was that Joe Gibbs quality coach that could restore this franchise to the top tier. My impressions of him prior to his arrival was limited to his resume and not much else. And I expected him to be the smart, highly experienced coach based on that resume, and was not laying in wait, looking for something to be critical of. Unfortunately , in just this short span of time, he's made several decisions that really are head scratchers, and his behavior does validate some of the negative criticisms that follow him. So this is much less about what Plumber has to say, and more about how Shanahan has conducted himself which validates Plumber's statements. Credibility of testimony comes into play in the absence of supporting evidence, but when you do have evidence, that makes the "credibility" issue much less relevant.

At this point ... I'm taking a "wait and see" stance. So far, I think he's a mixed bag, and I'm even less impressed with his son, who seems to be the driving force behind the McNabb issue.

Frankly, neither one of the Shanahans have demonstrated tremendous wisdom or honesty relative to the benching of McNabb, and that's what troubles me the most. Now, this isn't very scientific or logical, but my gut feeling about these two is not a positive one ... I can't put my finger on it, nor explain more than that. Especially Kyle ... I don't think he's trustworthy ... my gut tells me he's a double talker ... while his dad suffers delusions of grandeur.

I hope I'm wrong.
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Post by Countertrey »

I'm concerned at this point, as well... my problem is that we only know that Shanahan has not been consistent in his words... and that someone, possibly someone with an unfriendly agenda... is spouting off to the less trusted members of the sports press...

I have no idea what's actually going on inside of Redskins park... and, considering that I have no ability to influence events one way or the other, I'll simply continue to wait... and to hope that this growing bad dream yield some positive result soon...

In other words, Ray... I hope you're wrong, too! :wink:
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Post by SkinsJock »

some good stuff coming out of Redskins Park - McNabb says he's feeling good after a break - Mike says that he thinks McNabb looks like he's ready to go and that he's very comfortable with him leading the offense this Monday
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Post by Deadskins »

SkinsJock wrote:some good stuff coming out of Redskins Park - McNabb says he's feeling good after a break - Mike says that he thinks McNabb looks like he's ready to go and that he's very comfortable with him leading the offense this Monday

I don't know... That week off can really affect one's cardiovascular conditioning. :roll:
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Post by SkinsJock »

he did "sound" a little off in the interview :twisted:

maybe he'll only be able to play the first half this week

I'd love to see McNabb on the bike between series - can you imagine the various "scenarios" of potential disaster that Ray would come up with :lol:
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Post by PulpExposure »

RayNAustin wrote:Believe me when I say that I really wanted to believe Shanahan was that Joe Gibbs quality coach that could restore this franchise to the top tier. My impressions of him prior to his arrival was limited to his resume and not much else. And I expected him to be the smart, highly experienced coach based on that resume, and was not laying in wait, looking for something to be critical of. Unfortunately , in just this short span of time, he's made several decisions that really are head scratchers, and his behavior does validate some of the negative criticisms that follow him. So this is much less about what Plumber has to say, and more about how Shanahan has conducted himself which validates Plumber's statements. Credibility of testimony comes into play in the absence of supporting evidence, but when you do have evidence, that makes the "credibility" issue much less relevant.

At this point ... I'm taking a "wait and see" stance. So far, I think he's a mixed bag, and I'm even less impressed with his son, who seems to be the driving force behind the McNabb issue.

Frankly, neither one of the Shanahans have demonstrated tremendous wisdom or honesty relative to the benching of McNabb, and that's what troubles me the most. Now, this isn't very scientific or logical, but my gut feeling about these two is not a positive one ... I can't put my finger on it, nor explain more than that. Especially Kyle ... I don't think he's trustworthy ... my gut tells me he's a double talker ... while his dad suffers delusions of grandeur.

I hope I'm wrong.


I generally agree that I have been less than impressed with the way Mike has dealt with both the Haynesworth and McNabb situations. His treatment of Haynesworth went from punitive to petty, and he absolutely bungled the McNabb situation. Where I differ is with respect to Kyle. Kyle's explanation to the media on Tuesday (McNabb was injured, etc.) sounded a heck of a lot more credible than either of Mike's explanations (didn't know the 2 minute offense/is out of shape). And more importantly, Kyle's explanation didn't involve throwing Donovan in front of a bus. Twice.

That being said, I think Mike's brought a discipline to our team that was sorely lacking. And I think the coaching job he is doing overall...is pretty good. We don't get a lot of stupid penalties; and our time management (aside from the Detroit benching) has been good.
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Post by langleyparkjoe »

Jake 'da snake' Plummer (not Roberts) was a total stud...

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Post by Countertrey »

^^^ ummm... are we are talking about THIS universe, LPJ? :wink:
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Post by RayNAustin »

PulpExposure wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:Believe me when I say that I really wanted to believe Shanahan was that Joe Gibbs quality coach that could restore this franchise to the top tier. My impressions of him prior to his arrival was limited to his resume and not much else. And I expected him to be the smart, highly experienced coach based on that resume, and was not laying in wait, looking for something to be critical of. Unfortunately , in just this short span of time, he's made several decisions that really are head scratchers, and his behavior does validate some of the negative criticisms that follow him. So this is much less about what Plumber has to say, and more about how Shanahan has conducted himself which validates Plumber's statements. Credibility of testimony comes into play in the absence of supporting evidence, but when you do have evidence, that makes the "credibility" issue much less relevant.

At this point ... I'm taking a "wait and see" stance. So far, I think he's a mixed bag, and I'm even less impressed with his son, who seems to be the driving force behind the McNabb issue.

Frankly, neither one of the Shanahans have demonstrated tremendous wisdom or honesty relative to the benching of McNabb, and that's what troubles me the most. Now, this isn't very scientific or logical, but my gut feeling about these two is not a positive one ... I can't put my finger on it, nor explain more than that. Especially Kyle ... I don't think he's trustworthy ... my gut tells me he's a double talker ... while his dad suffers delusions of grandeur.

I hope I'm wrong.


I generally agree that I have been less than impressed with the way Mike has dealt with both the Haynesworth and McNabb situations. His treatment of Haynesworth went from punitive to petty, and he absolutely bungled the McNabb situation. Where I differ is with respect to Kyle. Kyle's explanation to the media on Tuesday (McNabb was injured, etc.) sounded a heck of a lot more credible than either of Mike's explanations (didn't know the 2 minute offense/is out of shape). And more importantly, Kyle's explanation didn't involve throwing Donovan in front of a bus. Twice.

That being said, I think Mike's brought a discipline to our team that was sorely lacking. And I think the coaching job he is doing overall...is pretty good. We don't get a lot of stupid penalties; and our time management (aside from the Detroit benching) has been good.


Well, Kyle had the luxury of almost every NFL voice ... ex-coach, ex-player, analyst crucifying his father and dissecting every word he uttered as a guide for what not to say. And I think he did a good job of trying to put out the firestorm while not directly contradicting his father ... too much, explaining it as "the words not coming out right".

My "discomfort" comes from the revelations that have emerged indicting a dissatisfaction with McNabb early on in the preseason and regular season. Given the struggles of the o-line and lack of run game, and the pressure (not just sacks, but knockdowns and hurries) on the QB while expecting him to throw, throw, throw to make up for the lack of ground attack tells me that it's really impossible to assess McNabb's performance legitimately, let alone be dissatisfied with it so early as has been indicated.

What were they expecting of him in these early stages, as he was learning a new system and new teammates, while dealing with a line performing so poorly that even run attempts were being stopped behind the line for losses half the time? I mean, we saw what happened to Rex when he came in. He was crushed on the first play.

I am not suggesting that McNabb has played consistently, but I don't think anyone should have expected him to come in and immediately perform at a pro bowl level either, especially given the other problems around him. So I think the dissatisfaction with him is an unfair assessment. And where is that assessment coming from? I'd have to believe it is Kyle, because I don't think Mike would ignore Kyle's assessment of offensive personnel performance since he is in charge of that. That leads me to believe that Kyle had unrealistic expectations regarding McNabb from the beginning.

McNabb is not Peyton Manning, and never will be. He is a very good QB with his own flaws and shortcomings. And you have a very good blueprint of him to follow with his years of success in Philly. If you trade for this guy, you should know what he does well and focus your offensive approach on that. Is that what they are doing? Or are they expecting to "fix" those shortcomings while he's learning the new system?

I don't think anyone is beyond improving or learning new things ... but you have to be realistic, and you're not going to fundamentally fix or change what a guy has been doing for 10 years in the span of 90 days.

The latest words from the Shanahans seems to indicate that they are looking to reassess some of these things on offense, so hopefully they are reassessing their own shortcomings too.

I also give credit where credit is due, and overall, the team has played with an elevated confidence level ... and it is also true that they could have been 6-2 going into the buy week as easily as they could have been 2-6 ... there were a couple of losses there that could have gone the other way. And given that they have already won as many games as they did all of last year, that is progress.

The immediate and long term success of the team depends on McNabb however, so I hope they don't continue to misplace the responsibility on him for the failures on offense. He's done more to contribute to the 4 wins than he has contributed to the 4 losses.

If they can manage to shore up the line play, and establish some consistency there, I think McNabb has already proven that he can be that explosive player he's always been if given the time to do so.

We're going to find out what these guys are made of Monday night. With an extra week to prepare, they should be coming out and making a statement .... we'll see what that statement says, and how well they are prepared.

With the Giants playing as they are, a loss against Philly would almost sink the season for the Redskins. We have to be looking at beating out Philly for a wild card spot at this stage, because the Giants look like they are going to finish no worse than 11-5 even if we beat them twice, which I think is also unrealistic. Looking at the Giants schedule, I think they are going to finish 12-4 or better ... so our battle is with the Eagles and the rest of the NFC that are sitting at 4-4 or better right now.

I think we need to go 6-2 in the second half to make the playoffs ... 8-8 or 9-7 isn't going to make it this year.
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