Amend Timeout Rule

roybus14 · Post by **roybus14** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:08 pm

Don't beat me up Hogsters but I have a proposal for amendment on the timeout situation for field goals. Here goes:

- The defensive team can only call a timeout between the time the ball is spotted and when the center first touches the ball for the snap**;

- Only the offense can call timeout after the center first touches the ball; They'd be icing their own kicker at that point or changing their minds;

- To avoid any bending of this rule by the offense, the center can only touch the ball when the offense is set and in position. This should keep the offense honest because they have to get set because of the play clock; if the offense sets up way early in the play clock to avoid the defense from calling a t.o., they would either be rushing their kicker or icing him by just sitting and waiting;

- **The defense can call a timeout after the ball is touched by the center only if the offense shifts out of the field attempt formation. Shouldn't be that big a deal because most STs have shifts to counter the offensive trickeration.

Or

Change the rule that if the defense waits until the last second to call timeout and the ball is snapped with players going through the full motions, the play stands.

Some of you may say, "well why does he want to change the rule because we lost?" Well, my counter to that is that I've never been a fan of waiting until the last second to ice the kicker. In sports like basketball, it's fine because you don't have eleven men on each side and the distance ranging from short to long. In basketball, it's only six or eight guys max lining up and the distance from the line to the hoop is always the same.

Your thoughts????

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:17 pm

I don't have an issue with the rule because in the simplest form, it makes sense.

A team can call time out at any time up until the ball is snapped.

The timeout rule is great when it benefits you but when it hurts you - CHANGE IT!!!

I think with all the rules and changes and you can do this and that but not then and there, etc we're overthinking it. It's a game - plain and simple.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:19 pm

The way it is now is fine by me - the kickers are paid a lot of money to do one thing - kick field goals

if the defense calls a TO like Kubiak did, all it really should mean to the kicker is that he might get a practice kick in if the center still snaps the ball OR at worst just wait and then kick the ball through the uprights

as I understand it, before the game and after the kicker has gone through his practice kicks from various places he informs the ST coach of what distance and from which side he wants to kick in both directions

I have no problem with a team taking a time out as Kubiak did - all the kicker has to do is execute what he said he could do

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:27 pm

Your tune will change when/if it benefit us.

Leave the rule alone and execute better in areas of the game that we CAN control.

roybus14 · Post by **roybus14** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:27 pm

Frank and SJ,

Thanks for your opinions. You both are on point. I wanted to put it out there and get a feel for it.

To add to your points: we should have never been in that situation to begin with, up 17. We stick the dagger in them and it's a mute point!!!

But I will say this, it was exciting to see the offense put up 27. Really disappointed that the run game was nothing but seeing McNabb slinging that thing around the field to wide open receivers is a site for sore eyes around here.....

roybus14 · Post by **roybus14** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:28 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Your tune will change when/if it benefit us.

Leave the rule alone and execute better in areas of the game that we CAN control.

I hear you bro.... ;-)

)

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:31 pm

I've never much liked the rule from a spectator standpoint... it just doesn't contribute positively to the game-watching experience. However, there is no reason (as far as I know) that Gano shouldn't have been able to get the ball on-target the second time.

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:53 pm

I think icing the kicker is school yard... kind of like picking against the Redskins in Hognostications... :twisted:

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:57 pm

roybus14 wrote:Don't beat me up Hogsters but I have a proposal for amendment on the timeout situation for field goals. Here goes:

- The defensive team can only call a timeout between the time the ball is spotted and when the center first touches the ball for the snap**;

- Only the offense can call timeout after the center first touches the ball; They'd be icing their own kicker at that point or changing their minds;

- To avoid any bending of this rule by the offense, the center can only touch the ball when the offense is set and in position. This should keep the offense honest because they have to get set because of the play clock; if the offense sets up way early in the play clock to avoid the defense from calling a t.o., they would either be rushing their kicker or icing him by just sitting and waiting;

- **The defense can call a timeout after the ball is touched by the center only if the offense shifts out of the field attempt formation. Shouldn't be that big a deal because most STs have shifts to counter the offensive trickeration.

Or

Change the rule that if the defense waits until the last second to call timeout and the ball is snapped with players going through the full motions, the play stands.

Some of you may say, "well why does he want to change the rule because we lost?" Well, my counter to that is that I've never been a fan of waiting until the last second to ice the kicker. In sports like basketball, it's fine because you don't have eleven men on each side and the distance ranging from short to long. In basketball, it's only six or eight guys max lining up and the distance from the line to the hoop is always the same.

Your thoughts????

I think this is pretty well thought out, and I don't have any objections to the idea.

My only problem with rule changes like this is their tendency to increase the complexity of the game in a way that can cause problems down the road: Was the offense really set? Did the defense get the timeout call in on time? Let's go to instant replay! And while we're there, let's have another 5 minute commercial break. When we get back, the ref can make a questionable ruling, and the stadium can errupt with boos. Oh wait, weren't we supposed to be doing something, like kicking a field goal? :lol:

But in general I'm not a fan of the "instant timeout" they give defenses. It's clearly using the timeout in a way that was not intended in the rules. My hope is that the fad dies a natural death.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:42 pm

roybus14 wrote:Don't beat me up Hogsters but I have a proposal for amendment on the timeout situation for field goals. Here goes:

- The defensive team can only call a timeout between the time the ball is spotted and when the center first touches the ball for the snap**;

- Only the offense can call timeout after the center first touches the ball; They'd be icing their own kicker at that point or changing their minds;

- To avoid any bending of this rule by the offense, the center can only touch the ball when the offense is set and in position. This should keep the offense honest because they have to get set because of the play clock; if the offense sets up way early in the play clock to avoid the defense from calling a t.o., they would either be rushing their kicker or icing him by just sitting and waiting;

- **The defense can call a timeout after the ball is touched by the center only if the offense shifts out of the field attempt formation. Shouldn't be that big a deal because most STs have shifts to counter the offensive trickeration.

Or

Change the rule that if the defense waits until the last second to call timeout and the ball is snapped with players going through the full motions, the play stands.

Some of you may say, "well why does he want to change the rule because we lost?" Well, my counter to that is that I've never been a fan of waiting until the last second to ice the kicker. In sports like basketball, it's fine because you don't have eleven men on each side and the distance ranging from short to long. In basketball, it's only six or eight guys max lining up and the distance from the line to the hoop is always the same.

Your thoughts????

A simpler solution is to go back to not letting the coach on the sideline call time out. Or at least don't have a ref standing next to him ready to blow the whistle. That way the D can't reliably do it at that precise moment without risk of not being ready themselves because someone has to get a ref's attention.

DaveD1420 · Post by **DaveD1420** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:23 pm

I don't mind the TO rule as it is. I don't think it should matter if the next play is a kick, a run, or a pass. What happens when they run the fake? Is that still a kick attempt? Does the opposing coach have an argument? Too confusing, IMO.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:28 pm

leave the rule alone. a defense has to be able to call time out at any time as well

cowboykillerzRGiii · Post by **cowboykillerzRGiii** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:36 pm

I've always thought it was a weak move to call a timeout at the last instant and ice the kicker. I wish he missed first then made it of course we all do. I think shanny showed class not stooping to that level and burning all our timeouts to try and get revenge.. Hell by the last one it mighta worked. Either stupid rule never liked it and think it takes away from the game. We shouldn't have let it come down to OT regardless w that said I hate the rule as is and get disgusted when I see the "ice the kicker" technique done by any team especially if we do it not that I remember ever doing it

gtexan · Post by **gtexan** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:12 pm

For the record, even as a Texans fan, i find icing the kicker to be a little schoolyard as well. Wish we hadn't done it and Gano had just missed the first one.

That said, here are some "facts" on Icing the Kicker from Wikipedia:

1. Mike Shanahan came up with the idea?
"One variant of this tactic, attributed to former Denver Broncos coach Mike Shanahan[1], is to call time out from the sidelines just before the ball is snapped. This prevents the kicking team from realizing the kick will not count until after the play is over. However, this has the potential to backfire, as the kicker could miss the first attempt that does not count, but then make the second attempt, as demonstrated in a game between the Arizona Cardinals and Dallas Cowboys during the 2008 NFL season"

2. In 07 the Redskins tried to ice the kicker twice, but it was deemed unsportsmanlike conduct.
"Under league rules, a team can only call one time out between plays. Teams that attempt to call two consecutive timeouts are penalized 15 yards (unsportsmanlike conduct), making any potential field goal much easier. A recent example of this is a game in the 2007 NFL season, when Joe Gibbs of the Washington Redskins attempted to do just that in the closing seconds of a game against the Buffalo Bills. Gibbs's gaffe shortened the potential game-winning field goal from 51 yards to 36. (It was a moot point, anyway, as Bills kicker Rian Lindell successfully kicked the moot 51 yarder as well as the shorter 36 yard kick.)

(saw this on the texans board)

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:34 pm

You are also not aware that I have always considered it a cheap act... including when Gibbs did it. Your lecture does not apply to me.

Regarding Shanahan's history... it should be clear, based on yesterday's game... that he has matured.

cowboykillerzRGiii · Post by **cowboykillerzRGiii** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:16 pm

I vote no time outs in OT so that a game winning field goal can't be Iced. Jus seems girly to me. Didn't swee stuff like this till 2000's right?

gtexan · Post by **gtexan** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:41 pm

Countertrey wrote:You are also not aware that I have always considered it a cheap act... including when Gibbs did it. Your lecture does not apply to me.

Regarding Shanahan's history... it should be clear, based on yesterday's game... that he has matured.

*shrug* Not intended to be a lecture, just sort of giving you an indication of where Kubiak learned the technique. He is a Shannahan pupil after all.

I also agreed that its a cheap move. You must have missed that.

I highly doubt that Shannahan has changed. If he believed it would have made a difference, he no doubt would have used it. Theres just no point in icing a 30 yard field goal. Its basically a chip shot.

If Rackers had lined up for the 52 yarder, I believe Shannahan would have called timeout

Jeremy81 · Post by **Jeremy81** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:30 am

it never should have came to that...either way, there's nothing wrong with icing the kicker. it is what it is

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:39 pm

My only problem with icing the kicker is these situations like last weekend where the kicker is forced to make the kick twice because the TO gets called so late. "Icing" the kicker should mean that you're forcing him to wait longer to kick and have to think about it. This stuff where they wait a second before the snap is garbage.

So yeah I totally agree with the original poster that once the center is set, no timeouts. Coaches can look for the center to start getting in his stance, call their timeout, and still have a chance to ice the kicker. I have no problem with that part of it.

What happened with Gano on Sunday just seems kind of cheap and unfair. If the refs can't get the timeout call into the players before the ball is snapped and kicked, then too bad.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:30 pm

The only thing I would change is that the HC has to signal the ref for timeout in time for the ref to blow the play dead prior to the snap. If the whistle and the snap happen at the same time, the opposing coach gets the choise of excepting the result of the play or granting the time out.

This way we will no longer see last second TO that the whistle blows at the snap (or sometimes after the snap) and a game winning FG doesn't count.

I have no problem with icing the kicker, but it has to be done prior to the play commencing.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:30 am

Totally agree with the last two posts. This last second TO stuff is not icing the kicker. Icing the kicker is what they used to do. If the whistle is so late that the play still continues, that is BS, and shouldn't be allowed.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:08 pm

The NFL could also just instruct refs that if timeout is called before a certain point, like the center touching the ball that they will go ahead and whistle, but they should just ignore a timeout if they are only doing it at the last second to be pricks. I have no issue with the icing like most others, it's the calling when they are ready to start the play that's w/o class and the NFL should stop it. That way if say the ref sees a legit reason to call then they could go ahead and blow the whistle.

DarthMonk · Post by **DarthMonk** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:36 pm

I have no problem with the time out call but it seems contradictory for the rules to say doing it once is fine but doing it twice in a row is unsportsmanlike. Seems to me you ought to be able to call time out 3 times in a row if you have 'em all and doing it once is OK.

DarthMonk

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