Ironic dislike of Redskin stars

[crazyhorse1]

I find it ironic and not a little disgusting that Redskin fans trash Haynesworth and Campbell.

Haynesworth was by far our most effective defensive player last year and Campbell was, most of the time, the most effective offensive player.

Haynesworth was the top DT in the NFL, partially because of his weight (350 lbs or so). If he weren't huge, he wouldn't be so dominating, yet Redskin fans are stupidly critical of his weight. He also spent the year taking on two or three players per play, yet has been subject to criticism because he would have to take breathers every once in while. Guess what, no body in football can take on two and three blockers every play without taking breathers-- nobody can. Period.

Haynesworth is herculean and played like he was-- breathers or not-- and greatly helped two of our rushers to outstanding seasons, as well as greatly strenghten the DL in regard to stopping the ground game. Now, Redskin fans can't wait to trade him and/or are quick to insult him by suggesting he be traded for a 2nd rounder and late round draft picks. Disgusting. The appreciation is lacking.

Campbell, on the other had, is not in the top rung of NFL quarterbacks, yet he was the heart of our offense, which can not be denied. Without him, we almost certainly would have lost all the games we won and failed
to keep other games close. There is no doubt he was the MVP of our offense. Still, he was trashed by fans and posters on this site with almost insane venom. Even at season's end, when he emerged as the 15th ranked QB in the NFL, in spite of one of the worse O lines and the worse set of running backs in the NFL, the trashing continued, with many fans bending over backyards to discredit statistical evidence of his value.
Once again, disgusting. The apprecition is lacking.

So now the trashing goes on, again directed against the best Redskins, not the worse. Fans are obsessed with getting rid of ey, the best TE in Redskin history-- even suggesting he be traded for a second round draft pick, a stinging insult for a star player in his prime. Disgusting. I'm tired of it, frankly. I'm also tired of Portis being trashed. The man has given up his body in our behalf for years and now he's trashed for trying to save himself for the regular season-- as if he didn't know he was in for a battering. ETC.

I suggest everyone take a deep breath. I don't even suggest loyalty, but I do think fairness is appropriate for a fan. Haynesworth really does have cause for his disappointment. He really was promised he would be used in the 4-3. Portis, is not, in fact, a distraction in the locker room. Campbell really has improved every year he's played. It really is not rational to be angry at our best players and say next to nothing about our worse.

[brad7686]

Haynesworth is a d-bag

Campbell bashing wasn't going to stop no matter what he did, it would be best for him to get out of here ASAP.

Nobody dislikes ey, it's just that he is superfluous

Portis is also a d-bag

[KazooSkinsFan]

I find it ironic and not a little disgusting that Redskin fans trash Haynesworth and Campbell

The getting rid of ey stuff is stupid, I agree.

A lot of the Haynesworth discussion wasn't not wanting him but how long he'll be dominating and it would be better to trade him for a younger player now who'll be good a couple years from now. I am against that unless we get a good trade for him, but I don't take most of that discussion as anti-Haynesworth. Then there was the odd thread where a couple of people said they wouldn't trade him for the #1 pick. That's just nuts. You're right there are a few who dislike him, but I think they are a small minority.

As for Campbell, he sucks, sorry. He's had a lot of support on this site to give him every chance to prove himself. He's had every chance to improve and he hasn't. And the nonsense about the line would make sense if he didn't suck just as bad when they do play better or if he could throw catchable balls to open receivers. He doesn't, he can't, he's not improving. It's time for a change.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Fans... LOL I dunno how people can call themselves that.

[jbxrocker23]

In my opinion, anyone who is criticizing Haynesworth's dominance on the field is sorely misinformed. I believe that the majority of the issues that fans take with him is the fact that he is not acting like the team leader that many expected him to be. However overblown the situation may be, he and Shanahan are in disagreement, but that situation is well chronicled. Haynesworth shouldn't be criticized for his play.

Campbell, given the circumstances, played spectacularly last season. That he's not completely shell shocked (see: David Carr) and still able to function when given adequate time is nothing short of a miracle. The guy is tough, and he fought last season. I've never seen a QB scraped off the ground so many times. That being said, he's the QB in DC, and because he didn't have instant success, he was boo-ed. I completely agree that he was our best option last season.

I had a very serious problem with Clinton Portis last season. He was talking real big, and not putting up the play to back it up (prior to his concussion). I realize that he has sacrificed his body for the organization, but our O-line was lacking chemistry as it was. Practice is important, practice with a terrible and inexperienced O-line is even more important. Not sure if it was fresh legs, practice, sheer determination, or what, but Betts ran much better behind the line. I also had a huge problem with Portis when he decided to throw Campbell under the bus at the end of the season. Trash Zorn, go right ahead, he was in over his head, but leave Campbell alone, the kid was never given a fair shot. Hopefully, Portis shows up in shape, practices regularly, and shows that he's got a little left in the tank.

There, that's my rare

[SkinsJock]

Sorry crazyhorse1 - you're just mistaken in your thinking about how some of us feel about Hayneworth, Campbell, ey and other players - funny how you want fans to be a open minded about players and yet you have a closed mind about the potential for our new GM and HC

In my opinion you are mistaken about a lot of things to do with the fans here, the Redskins players & coaches and the GM

[Skinsfan55]

Not to be a bug, but I still say Jerry Smith is the best TE in Redskins history, he should be in the Hall of Fame... but he never gets discussed because he was gay.

[Countertrey]

Not to be a bug, but I still say Jerry Smith is the best TE in Redskins history, he should be in the Hall of Fame... but he never gets discussed because he was gay.

[crazyhorse1]

Not to be a bug, but I still say Jerry Smith is the best TE in Redskins history, he should be in the Hall of Fame... but he never gets discussed because he was gay.

Jerry Smith was a great TE, no doubt. He should be in the Hall. It's hard to pick between him and ey. It would have been wiser of me to say that
ey is the greatest Redskin TE since Jerry Smith.

[aswas71788]

I absolutely agree with you about Haynesworth. He made our Defense better. Two players got 22 sacks because of him. He did seem to pick some of the wrong times to take himself out of the line-up tough. BUt he was still the force that opened the lanes.

Campbell, I totally diasagree with you. Jason Campbell is one of the most professional guys I can rmember in sports. Even given the open sentiments of the front office, he came in every day and did his best. But he was not teh answer to the Redskins needs. He missed many, many,many open receivers. Forget the old "he has been in so many offensive schemes", it is to old an argument. He didn't get it done. I sincerely hope he lands somewhere and has a great career.

I don't know who the idiots are that advocated trading ey. That is ludicrous. I have seen both he and Jerry Smith play and the difference between the two is miniscule. I do agree that Smith should be in the HoF.

Portis deserves the trashing he is getting. I think he took advantage of the favoratism and dogged it last year. Wallowing in the favoratism to do as he liked, screw the team, collect the big paycheck, have dinner with Snyder, give the finger to Zorn. I believe that he was one of the reasons for the teams poor showing and Zorn's failure, not that Zorn was ready to be a head coach but Portis didn't help the situation. It wasn't just Betts who ran better than Portis, it was every other running back that played.

[bbatty]

I absolutely agree with you about Haynesworth. He made our Defense better. Two players got 22 sacks because of him. He did seem to pick some of the wrong times to take himself out of the line-up tough. BUt he was still the force that opened the lanes.

Campbell, I totally diasagree with you. Jason Campbell is one of the most professional guys I can rmember in sports. Even given the open sentiments of the front office, he came in every day and did his best. But he was not teh answer to the Redskins needs. He missed many, many,many open receivers. Forget the old "he has been in so many offensive schemes", it is to old an argument. He didn't get it done. I sincerely hope he lands somewhere and has a great career.

I don't know who the idiots are that advocated trading ey. That is ludicrous. I have seen both he and Jerry Smith play and the difference between the two is miniscule. I do agree that Smith should be in the HoF.

Portis deserves the trashing he is getting. I think he took advantage of the favoratism and dogged it last year. Wallowing in the favoratism to do as he liked, screw the team, collect the big paycheck, have dinner with Snyder, give the finger to Zorn. I believe that he was one of the reasons for the teams poor showing and Zorn's failure, not that Zorn was ready to be a head coach but Portis didn't help the situation. It wasn't just Betts who ran better than Portis, it was every other running back that played.

I think the ey talk of trade is pure stupidity at this point. He's a proven reciever, which not all our recieving core has shown YET.
Why cut the guy you know you can depend on and definately makes
the opposing team think about how to defend. If our current roster
of recievers (not Moss) do step up this year. We have some real talent
all over the field. LOOKOUT!

I believe Cambell get's bashed and is his own worst enemy sometimes, i.e. he's Quiet when he should be telling the "O" to DO their job. He handles the press well and is very professional. I've really never heard him be loud to anyone. His big downfall in my eye's is not standing up
and calling the team to step up.

Initially Portis was "it's all about me, it's all about me" Gibbs lightened
up that load however; Portis knows how to play the game and not
necessarily just on the field.

Hail

[Gibbs4Life]

SNAP! SNAP!


What the heck was that!?


Chris ey's ankle last year

[fleetus]

To be a fan means to be FANatic about the team. It doesn't require that you blindly agree with every player no matter what.

Case in point, Haynesworth. I agree he is the most talented player overall. I also feel almost as bad about him being a Redskin as when we signed Neion Deion. I argued against both moves before they happened while hearing plenty blindly happy fans excited about the addition of talent.

well, if you weren't around for George Allen and Joe Gibbs football in the 70's and 80's then maybe you wouldn't understand this, but, the Skins have a history of winning with less talent but more character. We took Doug Williams off the scrap heap and embraced him. We've had small players but big on heart like Pat Fisher, Darrell Green, Gary Clark, Neil Olkewicz and Joe Washington to name just a few. some of our best RB's, Riggins and Byner, were reclamation projects.

So when you hear about a 350# guy, who has averaged 12 games a season for his whole career, get 41M guaranteed, you worry a little. When you hear him complain TO THE MEDIA that his coaches are using him improperly because they had the audacity to ask him to play some two gap during a game or two, you worry a little more.

When you see he doesn't show up for off-season (voluntary) workouts, you wonder, is a brand new coaching staff AND a 21M bonus not enough motivation for him to come to workouts that most all of his team mates found time for?

Then you hear him say he does not want to play NT in a 3-4. Okay, but he hasn't even reported to a single team practice to see what kind of 3-4 they want to run or how they might use him in the scheme.

This is not a Redskin. This guy is another money grabber who is just passing through on his way somewhere else. We've had plenty (too many) like him before. In a few years, he'll be barely a memory. Hope we get some real Redskin players as a result of the trade that send his 350# to Oakland or Detroit.

As far as Cambell goes, I like him and wished he could stay here. Problem is he has not shown himself to be an above average starter. He's also ridden the Roller Coaster of coaches and schemes and might be ready to start over somewhere where they will give him a shot at starting. If he stays I'll be happy though.

ey is a Redskin, and I seriously doubt there have been any trade talks. Just a couple of fringe fans spouting dumb ideas.

[Tim4104]

To be a fan means to be FANatic about the team. It doesn't require that you blindly agree with every player no matter what.

Case in point, Haynesworth. I agree he is the most talented player overall. I also feel almost as bad about him being a Redskin as when we signed Neion Deion. I argued against both moves before they happened while hearing plenty blindly happy fans excited about the addition of talent.

well, if you weren't around for George Allen and Joe Gibbs football in the 70's and 80's then maybe you wouldn't understand this, but, the Skins have a history of winning with less talent but more character. We took Doug Williams off the scrap heap and embraced him. We've had small players but big on heart like Pat Fisher, Darrell Green, Gary Clark, Neil Olkewicz and Joe Washington to name just a few. some of our best RB's, Riggins and Byner, were reclamation projects.

So when you hear about a 350# guy, who has averaged 12 games a season for his whole career, get 41M guaranteed, you worry a little. When you hear him complain TO THE MEDIA that his coaches are using him improperly because they had the audacity to ask him to play some two gap during a game or two, you worry a little more.

When you see he doesn't show up for off-season (voluntary) workouts, you wonder, is a brand new coaching staff AND a 21M bonus not enough motivation for him to come to workouts that most all of his team mates found time for?

Then you hear him say he does not want to play NT in a 3-4. Okay, but he hasn't even reported to a single team practice to see what kind of 3-4 they want to run or how they might use him in the scheme.

This is not a Redskin. This guy is another money grabber who is just passing through on his way somewhere else. We've had plenty (too many) like him before. In a few years, he'll be barely a memory. Hope we get some real Redskin players as a result of the trade that send his 350# to Oakland or Detroit.

As far as Cambell goes, I like him and wished he could stay here. Problem is he has not shown himself to be an above average starter. He's also ridden the Roller Coaster of coaches and schemes and might be ready to start over somewhere where they will give him a shot at starting. If he stays I'll be happy though.

ey is a Redskin, and I seriously doubt there have been any trade talks. Just a couple of fringe fans spouting dumb ideas.

I feel that pretty much puts that one to bed. Good job Fleetus.

[riggofan]

I've been a big supporter of Campbell, because he is such a class guy and it was hard not to feel bad for him being the QB on this crap team with all of the idiocy going on around him and having to play behind our embarrassment of an o-line. Also I consider myself a fan and want to support our players and encourage them to do well, not dog them mercilessly to fail to prove how smart I am. Maybe that's just me.

That said, I have a feeling JC will probably go on to be about as successful as Patrick Ramsey in his post Redskin career. Just a gut feeling. I still don't think he sucks, but it does seem like the fire is lacking.

[RayNAustin]

Listen to the McNabb interviews ... and recognize the football intelligence, as well as the overall intelligence factor, and compare this to Campbell. You'll find ... if you're honest, no comparison.

Jason is a good guy, a hard worker, and all of those you like to see in a player ... there has never been an issue with his character or toughness. But there are issues with his football intelligence ... he's been a very mechanical player who lacks football instincts, and ability to improvise. All of those intangibles that separate the really good ones from the also ran.

It's not just the DC that has to recognize what defenses are trying to do .. what weaknesses their particular strategy presents ... the QB needs to recognize these things too ... understand the coverages ... and do those little things like looking off safeties in order to open up a pattern ... recognize blitzes ...

Campbell appeared clueless at times with such things. You could watch a safety creeping up toward the LOS, and see that a blind side blitz was going to come ... but Jason didn't ... he'd drop back as normal and get clobbered ... and everyone would say ... see .. Jason didn't have a chance!!! Bull ... he simply missed an obvious blindside blitz on 3rd and 8 .. things veteran QBs are being paid and expected to recognize.

People tend to forget the fact that the Redskins went an entire half a season in 2007 without a TD to a single WR, and how this statistic was a direct reflection on Jason's documentable failure to throw downfield successfully, even when protection was sufficient.

In 2009, 18 of the 20 TDs came from inside the red zone ... and only 2 all year outside it. One could blame lack of protection for this IF this were an anomaly, but it wasn't. In 2008, it was 11 of 13 TDs coming from the Red zone .... in 2007 .. again ... 11 out of 12 TDs from the red zone.

Over the past 3 seasons, Jason Campbell threw ONE TD PASS from enemy territory that was outside the 20 yard line!! ONE in three seasons.

The increase in TD Passes in 2009 was due to more passes from close in because of o-line and RB injuries necessitating pass rather than run .. but the overall pattern of Jason not being able to execute TD passes from outside the 20 is plainly clear ... and it cannot be solely attributed to lack of pass pro ALL THREE YEARS.

Jasons stats show what everyone already knows ... that from the 20 to the 20, the Redskins moved the ball and racked up a lot of YAC on short, high percentage throws, so naturally, his stats should be high in completions and percentage ... but POINTS win games ... not yards ... not completions, and not comp %.

It's laughable to claim Jason Campbell didn't get a chance here. He received more fan and club support than anyone in my recent memory ...a virtual permanent hall pass for mediocre play.

Had he played in NY or Philly, he would have been run out of town in 2007.

Heck, Philly fans are saying good riddance to McNabb after 5 NFC Championship appearances in 11 seasons .. and one trip to the Super Bowl, and 6 Pro Bowls.

Jason would have been mugged and kidnapped there.

[VetSkinsFan]

To be a fan means to be FANatic about the team. It doesn't require that you blindly agree with every player no matter what.

Case in point, Haynesworth. I agree he is the most talented player overall. I also feel almost as bad about him being a Redskin as when we signed Neion Deion. I argued against both moves before they happened while hearing plenty blindly happy fans excited about the addition of talent.

well, if you weren't around for George Allen and Joe Gibbs football in the 70's and 80's then maybe you wouldn't understand this, but, the Skins have a history of winning with less talent but more character. We took Doug Williams off the scrap heap and embraced him. We've had small players but big on heart like Pat Fisher, Darrell Green, Gary Clark, Neil Olkewicz and Joe Washington to name just a few. some of our best RB's, Riggins and Byner, were reclamation projects.

So when you hear about a 350# guy, who has averaged 12 games a season for his whole career, get 41M guaranteed, you worry a little. When you hear him complain TO THE MEDIA that his coaches are using him improperly because they had the audacity to ask him to play some two gap during a game or two, you worry a little more.

When you see he doesn't show up for off-season (voluntary) workouts, you wonder, is a brand new coaching staff AND a 21M bonus not enough motivation for him to come to workouts that most all of his team mates found time for?

Then you hear him say he does not want to play NT in a 3-4. Okay, but he hasn't even reported to a single team practice to see what kind of 3-4 they want to run or how they might use him in the scheme.

This is not a Redskin. This guy is another money grabber who is just passing through on his way somewhere else. We've had plenty (too many) like him before. In a few years, he'll be barely a memory. Hope we get some real Redskin players as a result of the trade that send his 350# to Oakland or Detroit.

As far as Cambell goes, I like him and wished he could stay here. Problem is he has not shown himself to be an above average starter. He's also ridden the Roller Coaster of coaches and schemes and might be ready to start over somewhere where they will give him a shot at starting. If he stays I'll be happy though.

ey is a Redskin, and I seriously doubt there have been any trade talks. Just a couple of fringe fans spouting dumb ideas.

I understand your sentiment, but you say Gary Clark, Darrell Green, and Joe Washington had little talent? Come on man. Gary Clark is part of one of the most celebrated trios of all time. Even by non-Redskins fans who are old enough to remember the 80s, they knew who the posse was.

And Any man who can start for 15+ years is NOT small on talent in the least.

You have enough to back up your PoV...there's no need to stretch the truth.

[KazooSkinsFan]

the Skins have a history of winning with less talent but more character. We took Doug Williams off the scrap heap and embraced him. We've had small players but big on heart like Pat Fisher, Darrell Green, Gary Clark, Neil Olkewicz and Joe Washington to name just a few. some of our best RB's, Riggins and Byner, were reclamation projects.

I understand your sentiment, but you say Gary Clark, Darrell Green, and Joe Washington had little talent? Come on man. Gary Clark is part of one of the most celebrated trios of all time. Even by non-Redskins fans who are old enough to remember the 80s, they knew who the posse was.

And Any man who can start for 15+ years is NOT small on talent in the least.

You have enough to back up your PoV...there's no need to stretch the truth.

Also Riggo was in the pro-bowl his last year with the Jets and Byner had 576 rushing yards (his second best year w/Browns) and 576 receiving yards (best year w/Browns) before he was traded, hardly "reclamation" projects. Doug Williams was a starting QB in the USFL and came back to the NFL when it folded, but it was hardly the "scrap heap."

[fleetus]

To be a fan means to be FANatic about the team. It doesn't require that you blindly agree with every player no matter what.

Case in point, Haynesworth. I agree he is the most talented player overall. I also feel almost as bad about him being a Redskin as when we signed Neion Deion. I argued against both moves before they happened while hearing plenty blindly happy fans excited about the addition of talent.

well, if you weren't around for George Allen and Joe Gibbs football in the 70's and 80's then maybe you wouldn't understand this, but, the Skins have a history of winning with less talent but more character. We took Doug Williams off the scrap heap and embraced him. We've had small players but big on heart like Pat Fisher, Darrell Green, Gary Clark, Neil Olkewicz and Joe Washington to name just a few. some of our best RB's, Riggins and Byner, were reclamation projects.

So when you hear about a 350# guy, who has averaged 12 games a season for his whole career, get 41M guaranteed, you worry a little. When you hear him complain TO THE MEDIA that his coaches are using him improperly because they had the audacity to ask him to play some two gap during a game or two, you worry a little more.

When you see he doesn't show up for off-season (voluntary) workouts, you wonder, is a brand new coaching staff AND a 21M bonus not enough motivation for him to come to workouts that most all of his team mates found time for?

Then you hear him say he does not want to play NT in a 3-4. Okay, but he hasn't even reported to a single team practice to see what kind of 3-4 they want to run or how they might use him in the scheme.

This is not a Redskin. This guy is another money grabber who is just passing through on his way somewhere else. We've had plenty (too many) like him before. In a few years, he'll be barely a memory. Hope we get some real Redskin players as a result of the trade that send his 350# to Oakland or Detroit.

As far as Cambell goes, I like him and wished he could stay here. Problem is he has not shown himself to be an above average starter. He's also ridden the Roller Coaster of coaches and schemes and might be ready to start over somewhere where they will give him a shot at starting. If he stays I'll be happy though.

ey is a Redskin, and I seriously doubt there have been any trade talks. Just a couple of fringe fans spouting dumb ideas.

I understand your sentiment, but you say Gary Clark, Darrell Green, and Joe Washington had little talent? Come on man. Gary Clark is part of one of the most celebrated trios of all time. Even by non-Redskins fans who are old enough to remember the 80s, they knew who the posse was.

And Any man who can start for 15+ years is NOT small on talent in the least.

You have enough to back up your PoV...there's no need to stretch the truth.

No, there is nowhere in my post that i said those players had little talent. Read it again if need be.

[Tim4104]

the Skins have a history of winning with less talent but more character. We took Doug Williams off the scrap heap and embraced him. We've had small players but big on heart like Pat Fisher, Darrell Green, Gary Clark, Neil Olkewicz and Joe Washington to name just a few. some of our best RB's, Riggins and Byner, were reclamation projects.

I understand your sentiment, but you say Gary Clark, Darrell Green, and Joe Washington had little talent? Come on man. Gary Clark is part of one of the most celebrated trios of all time. Even by non-Redskins fans who are old enough to remember the 80s, they knew who the posse was.

And Any man who can start for 15+ years is NOT small on talent in the least.

You have enough to back up your PoV...there's no need to stretch the truth.

Also Riggo was in the pro-bowl his last year with the Jets and Byner had 576 rushing yards (his second best year w/Browns) and 576 receiving yards (best year w/Browns) before he was traded, hardly "reclamation" projects. Doug Williams was a starting QB in the USFL and came back to the NFL when it folded, but it was hardly the "scrap heap."

Yeah, Fleetus got a little ahead of himself there, but that paragraph aside, the rest of his post is sound, and in my opinion, right on point. I disagree completely with sentiment that started the discussion, that we should not be so harsh on AH, and I would wager that VET and Kazoo do too. That was fleetus' point, let's not get off on tangets about the details when he got a little carried away.

*** post fleetus' response, he's right, he did not say they lacked talent, just size.....but the way the paragraph was structured it did read that way at first...

how about this....we put that thought away, and agree that AH can get carted off the field for being winded somewhere else

[fleetus]

the Skins have a history of winning with less talent but more character. We took Doug Williams off the scrap heap and embraced him. We've had small players but big on heart like Pat Fisher, Darrell Green, Gary Clark, Neil Olkewicz and Joe Washington to name just a few. some of our best RB's, Riggins and Byner, were reclamation projects.

I understand your sentiment, but you say Gary Clark, Darrell Green, and Joe Washington had little talent? Come on man. Gary Clark is part of one of the most celebrated trios of all time. Even by non-Redskins fans who are old enough to remember the 80s, they knew who the posse was.

And Any man who can start for 15+ years is NOT small on talent in the least.

You have enough to back up your PoV...there's no need to stretch the truth.

Also Riggo was in the pro-bowl his last year with the Jets and Byner had 576 rushing yards (his second best year w/Browns) and 576 receiving yards (best year w/Browns) before he was traded, hardly "reclamation" projects. Doug Williams was a starting QB in the USFL and came back to the NFL when it folded, but it was hardly the "scrap heap."

Stop nitpicking already, sheesh. Some of you guys spend so much time trying to disect every little sentence, you miss the point of the coversation. You sound like 3rd grade school teachers with a red ink pen.

Riggins was at home in Kansas with no intention of playing any more football when Gibbs visited him to convince to play again. Byner fumbled the ball in the playoffs for the Browns and was cast off. The point is, we didn't win SB's because we signed the highest paid or top players in the NFL. You don't need the best player at any position. You need a cohesive unit of unselfish players who DON'T MIND playing out of position or anything else that MIGHT HELP THE TEAM WIN. PERIOD.

Shanahan is trying to change the culture in Washington. And almost day one he has a clash with Haynesworth. The whole organization needs to see Shanahan put Haynesworth in his place. And that place might end up being Oakland.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Stop nitpicking already, sheesh. Some of you guys spend so much time trying to disect every little sentence, you miss the point of the coversation. You sound like 3rd grade school teachers with a red ink pen.

Pointing out calling Riggins and Byner "reclamation projects" when Riggins was in the pro-bowl his last year with the Jets and Byner had one of his best years as a Brown his last year with the Browns is dissecting sentences? Sure Fleetus...

Then you add to that the points Vet already made so I didn't repeat about guys like Green and Clark. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, don't make up crap when you write them.

[fleetus]

Stop nitpicking already, sheesh. Some of you guys spend so much time trying to disect every little sentence, you miss the point of the coversation. You sound like 3rd grade school teachers with a red ink pen.

Pointing out calling Riggins and Byner "reclamation projects" when Riggins was in the pro-bowl his last year with the Jets and Byner had one of his best years as a Brown his last year with the Browns is dissecting sentences? Sure Fleetus...

Then you add to that the points Vet already made so I didn't repeat about guys like Green and Clark. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, don't make up crap when you write them.

It sure would be nice if people would spend a little more time discussing and a little less time hoping to score meaningless points of contention. It is an irrelevant argument of semantics if you personally disagree with Riggins and Byner being described as reclamation projects. Unless you disagree that the Redskins have a heritage and history winning with players who were not previously considered stars or tops at their position (like Haynesworth and Deion etc.).

I should probably just ignore you, but it bugs me how you not only intend to hijack the thread, but do so insolently, as if you know something. So, now I have to take the time to explain to you why you are wrong, which is silly since I bet, if you know very much about the Skins, that you already agree with the original point.

Let's start with what the word reclamation means.

Reclamation - [rek-luh-mey-shuhn] - the act or process of reclaiming

Reclaim-ing - to bring back to a preferable manner of living, sound principles, ideas, etc.

- to claim again

Quite simply, in 1980, John Riggins did not play football in the NFL or professionally anywhere. He announced his retirement from the Redskins and went home to his farm in Kansas. Joe Gibbs visited his farm to convince him to reclaim him to a preferable manner of living, as the starting RB of the Redskins. He went on to what most people consider his greatest years from that point. If Gibbs had not reclaimed him, he likely would have finished his days on the farm in Kansas.

Byner was a decent RB, but after he had "The Fumble", Cleveland couldn't wait to ship him somewhere else. He was considered damaged goods and needed to rebuild his image after his Bill Buckner like event. So in a sense, Gibbs re-claimed him from embarrassment and gave him a new start. If you don't know how big a deal this was, just google "The Fumble" and Wikipedia will explain it to you. To put Byner's worth in context, he was traded for Mike Oliphant. No disrespect to Oliphant, but he was drafted in the 3rd round after playing for NAIA Division I University of Puget Sound and then some semi-pro ball. He didn't start a single game for the Browns and was out of football just a few years later despite being younger than Byner.

The original point remains, The Skins have proven you don't need to sign the biggest free agents to win. You can win without the top stars in the league if your team is well run, disciplined and cohesive. I believe Haynesworth has placed himself in a position where Shanahan needs to make an example out of him. I also believe the team will be better as a result. Either Haynesworth will come to practice, try the 3-4 along with his team mates and let the coaches decide where he can best help the team win OR he will be traded so that the Skins can go about finding more players who do want to be a part of this team.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I bet, if you know very much about the Skins, that you already agree with the original point

You know rather then continuing to rationalize what you said it would be shorter and more accurate if you just admitted you got carried away.

But as for this statement, I agree completely that Gibbs was into character and the base of the team was built on that. But I disagree on two things. First, that somehow we were less talented. Gibbs took a talented team to the summit three times. He didn't take the galaxy with a rag tag fugitive fleet. Green is one of the best athletes we ever had, the guy is a freak of nature. Clark was a great receiver. If anything I think sometimes the overblown thing that he won with average players with character harmed the reputation of a lot of his players who deserved more recognition then they got. Guys like Mann, Grant, Jacoby, Bostic, Grimm, Coleman, Butz and a bunch of others were really good and they were always stuck with the rep Gibbs won with average players so they must be average.

I also disagree that Gibbs passed on guys with questionable characters. Riggins is on my Avatar, obviously I'm a fan, but the guy was and is an adolescent. I love Dexter, but the guy was a man child as well and endlessly into "controlled substances." Wilbur Marshall pissed me off with the cheap shots and late hits. Gibbs wanted to win. I agree he emphasized character, but he found talented guys with character and he totally went for great athletes when he got them.

[Tim4104]

Kazoo, Vet, Fleetus....

I'll bake the cookies and poor the milk...

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