SkinsJock wrote:I'm thinking that Shanahan and Allen are looking a little bit further down the road than this year or next - by the begining of 2012 season we are going to replace everyone on the offensive line and I would imagine about 48 players of the 53 that were on the roster in 2009 - that's what I consider is the minimum we need to see here in order for this franchise to re-make itself
big job but that is the situation we are in right now
no rush, and no worries - we have a lot to get done
Where are you going to find 48 new players in 2 years?
By the start of 2012 is really three offseasons. They've already dumped 10 players from last year, and you can bet more will be gone by the time the season starts.
The real fun is which 5 does he think are still hear for 2012.
1) ey 2) Davis 3) One of either Kelly or Thomas 4) Orakpo 5) Haynsworth
I didn't say it would be hard to cut players, but how do we replace 48 players in 3 years when we only have 7 (or fewer) draft picks. Good UFA's are hard to find (as our experience has shown), & good UDFA's are even harder to find.
You almost have to do it. Beyond the 5 I listed (and I could easily see one of the TE's and Haynesworth gone in 3 seasons), it is somewhat difficult to find who would be still here in three seasons. Maybe Hall, maybe McIntosh, maybe Landry. Almost everyone else is either too old to count on three years from now, or not good enough.
How do they do it? The same way as everyone else. Drafts, trades, and free agency. It looks to me like the plan is to use this year as a rebuilding year and get pretty high picks for the next draft. There are roughly 200 players this year who would have been free agents that are not because of the CBA. So next year (or the next season that they play football), there will be roughly twice as many good free agents available as usual. There will still only be 32 teams, so with that many more people free, the amount you have to spend on most of the guys will go down and they'll be in a position to add a lot of players quickly. This season they'll replace 15 to 20 guys, see who they like as they rebuild, pick up as many good guys as they can in FA next year, then fill in the last few holes in the 2012 draft and be ready to really compete. You will also see them trade several players that still have value but aren't in the long term plans - Carter, Moss, Montgomery, Campbell, Landry, and one of the TE's are all potential trades.
Really, the back end of the roster isn't that hard to churn. The backups on a 4-12 team are very easy to replace. What you are looking at is replacing starters. Out of the 22, I've listed four still here in 2012, so you need 18 more in the next three seasons. They'll sign one or two in FA this year, draft two or three, and trade for one or two. Really, you are only looking at 6 new players a year - eminently doable.
That's 6 new STARTERS a year for 3 years. Not easy.
Definitely not easy, but hardly unprecedented. The current roster has 10 players on it that started opening day 2008 that could start this year. Included in that number are Campbell, Portis, Carter, McIntosh, Rogers, and Landry. Any of these guys could get demoted/traded/cut prior to the season. And in the last couple of seasons, Snyderatto was preaching "continuity". If not for the uncapped year, two or three of these guys would have left already. If not for a terrible guaranteed contract, Portis would have been cut already.
With the Cardinals reaching the Super Bowl, is Dan Snyder officially the worst owner in the league?
SkinsJock wrote:I'm thinking that Shanahan and Allen are looking a little bit further down the road than this year or next - by the begining of 2012 season we are going to replace everyone on the offensive line and I would imagine about 48 players of the 53 that were on the roster in 2009 - that's what I consider is the minimum we need to see here in order for this franchise to re-make itself
big job but that is the situation we are in right now
no rush, and no worries - we have a lot to get done
Where are you going to find 48 new players in 2 years?
By the start of 2012 is really three offseasons. They've already dumped 10 players from last year, and you can bet more will be gone by the time the season starts.
The real fun is which 5 does he think are still hear for 2012.
1) ey 2) Davis 3) One of either Kelly or Thomas 4) Orakpo 5) Haynsworth
I didn't say it would be hard to cut players, but how do we replace 48 players in 3 years when we only have 7 (or fewer) draft picks. Good UFA's are hard to find (as our experience has shown), & good UDFA's are even harder to find.
You almost have to do it. Beyond the 5 I listed (and I could easily see one of the TE's and Haynesworth gone in 3 seasons), it is somewhat difficult to find who would be still here in three seasons. Maybe Hall, maybe McIntosh, maybe Landry. Almost everyone else is either too old to count on three years from now, or not good enough.
How do they do it? The same way as everyone else. Drafts, trades, and free agency. It looks to me like the plan is to use this year as a rebuilding year and get pretty high picks for the next draft. There are roughly 200 players this year who would have been free agents that are not because of the CBA. So next year (or the next season that they play football), there will be roughly twice as many good free agents available as usual. There will still only be 32 teams, so with that many more people free, the amount you have to spend on most of the guys will go down and they'll be in a position to add a lot of players quickly. This season they'll replace 15 to 20 guys, see who they like as they rebuild, pick up as many good guys as they can in FA next year, then fill in the last few holes in the 2012 draft and be ready to really compete. You will also see them trade several players that still have value but aren't in the long term plans - Carter, Moss, Montgomery, Campbell, Landry, and one of the TE's are all potential trades.
Really, the back end of the roster isn't that hard to churn. The backups on a 4-12 team are very easy to replace. What you are looking at is replacing starters. Out of the 22, I've listed four still here in 2012, so you need 18 more in the next three seasons. They'll sign one or two in FA this year, draft two or three, and trade for one or two. Really, you are only looking at 6 new players a year - eminently doable.
That's 6 new STARTERS a year for 3 years. Not easy.
Can't be done without extensive use of the FA market. I'm glad some of you guys have begun looking at the numbers. We'll be lucky to get two or three starters a year from the draft, much less quality starters.
brad wrote:If they take Clausen they should have the decency to cut Campbell and make Clausen play behind our line. See if he's worth the pick.
that sounds like it makes a whole lot of sense
Campbell should be kept here and given every opportunity to show those of us that think he's not a good QB that he can get the job done and then as soon as we get a decent offensive line he can try and keep his position
I'm thinking he will lose out to whomever we bring in here
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
brad wrote:If they take Clausen they should have the decency to cut Campbell and make Clausen play behind our line. See if he's worth the pick.
that sounds like it makes a whole lot of sense
Campbell should be kept here and given every opportunity to show those of us that think he's not a good QB that he can get the job done and then as soon as we get a decent offensive line he can try and keep his position
I'm thinking he will lose out to whomever we bring in here
I'm just saying its wrong to make somebody play without a left tackle for two years, so they should cut Campbell if they take Clausen. And since Clausen would be the reason we don't have a left tackle, he should play and see what happens. Not that its his fault he got drafted, but if he's more important than a Left Tackle I would like to see it.
I agree that we need to find a way to get a decent offensive line as quickly as possible and hopefully if we cannot get Bradford we will get Okung BUT there is no way a team gives up an opportunity to bring in a future great QB and if Allen and both Shanahans think that Bradford or Claussen (or any other QB) is that QB then we will take that QB before we take an OT - NOT even close
The only way we bring in an OT with that 4th pick is if the QB (or QBs) that these guys want is not available - I'll even venture to suggest that they should trade up to get Bradford if they're convinced he's the future great QB - that's how important getting a future great QB is
I personally hope we get Okung - I also hope that we try and bring in a bunch of other offensive linemen as well
If we cannot get Bradford we'll just have to wait and find a QB later - it will just take a little longer because we will be a year behind in developing him
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
I'm being facetious, of course they won't cut Campbell if they don't draft Okung. But they should. Nobody should really have to play behind that line. Especially a guy that is marked to be leaving soon anyway. And whatever qb they took would probly hold out so they don't have to play behind it.
No matter who is the player we select at the 4 spot he will be signed and doing everything he can to get ready to play
this franchise and these guys will not have any difficulty getting ANY players signed that we really have to have here - count on it
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
brad7686 wrote:I'm being facetious, of course they won't cut Campbell if they don't draft Okung. But they should. Nobody should really have to play behind that line. Especially a guy that is marked to be leaving soon anyway. And whatever qb they took would probly hold out so they don't have to play behind it.
no worries brad - we will have new players on the offensive line - I agree that "that line" was atrocious but the offensive line on opening day will not resemble "that" group, except for the uniforms
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
I'd say closer to half that, 30 players over two years. 12-15 draft picks plus 12-15 free agents over the next two. We should see about 16 or 17 new players this year and another 12-15 next year.
I think Okung is the slam dunk pick if he is available. Pure speculation about their motives, but if I were Shanahan and Allen, I would do exactly what they are doing right now regarding the draft. I would keep the Okung interest quiet. Assuming there are some trade partners who want QB, I would start slowly hyping up my interest in QB's. That keeps people talking about QB's and not about Okung. Maybe someone offers a sweet deal to trade up to #4, maybe not.
we need 1 of 2 players (Okung or Bradford) and being in the 4 spot AND the fact that both teams directly above us are almost assuredly taking the DTs we are at least looking very good to get either - maybe we can find a trade partner but the fact remains - we need to rebuild this franchise over the next few drafts - I think the Jaguars brought in something like 35+ new players this past season
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
SkinsJock wrote:If this guy is there, we have to start replacing the offensive line players - I'm not sure that anyone, currently here, even as a back-up, will be here at the begining of 2012
Okung will be a fixture at LT for many years
I look for this team to get a bunch of offensive linemen in here this spring
I see yours and others' points, SJ, but consider this: Shanny has proven to be able to assemble serviceable O-lines his entire career out of pretty much spit and glue, so if we need to pull the trigger on a QB first and look to replenish his protection through trades or later rounds, I'm more than down with that.
I'm hoping that we can get Okung as I think he's going to be the LT for many years
If these guys think that either Bradford or Claussen can become good QBs then I think that is what they'll do
We have a lot of work to do here and it will take some time - if we get very lucky we could see some consistency by next season (2011) but that is hoping for a lot of things to work out - the reality to me is that we will most likely see this franchise back in decent shape with a consistently competitive product on the field in the 2012 season
I'm not head over heels about Shanahan and Allen running things here yet, I am cautiously optimistic
I am very encouraged that these guys are a huge upgrade over what we have seen for the past 10 seasons - we are heading in a direction that promises to be a lot more productive and these guys know what is going on
it is going to take time to get out of the mess we were in
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
I don't think there is any combination of players from the draft that is going to make the Skins much better this season. That is just the reality of the college jump to the NFL. The core of the team is already in place and it is a team in transition. Haynesworth isn't really a leader, doesn't really like the 3-4 but makes the most money and is the most talented. JC17, Hall, Portis, LJ, Landry, Rogers and many others are question marks for Shanahan. A rookie OT or QB is not going to step in and make the team significantly better for 2010.
If I were the coach, LT would be as big a priority as QB right now. Even though QB is obviously the most important, you really don't want a rokkie QB playing behind a journeyman LT. I'd rather have the LT drafted and in place before the QB is thrown to the wolves.
If we draft Okung we can plug him in at LT immediately and hopefully he will be pretty solid by 2011. If we then drafted a QB in the 2nd round he would play behind JC17 this year. We could send him in for some 4th Q mop up duty in a couple games, but mostly learn the offense in practice and carry a clipboard. By next season, his O-line would be better and the 2nd round QB might be ready to start. If the 2nd round QB isn't there for us this year, we look for a QB in the first 2 rounds next year.
redskindave wrote:Okung would be a great pick for us if he is still their at #4
Agreed.
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans for over a decade and a half. Stay away from football operations !!!
redskindave wrote:Okung would be a great pick for us if he is still their at #4
Agreed.
I am all for that too - this guy could be a force here for many years to come
after what Bradford showed yesterday we should be able to get Okung at the 4th slot after the Lions and Bucs take the 2 DTs - the only problem is that there is a lot of time between now and the draft and who knows what sort of wheeling and dealing is going to happen
I just hope that we find a way to get as many draft picks as possible in both this and next year's drafts - even if we have to give up good players for picks in next year's draft that is fine with me too
this franchise should be looking to the 2012 season - we have a lot of mess to clean up here
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
fleetus wrote: Pure speculation about their motives, but if I were Shanahan and Allen, I would do exactly what they are doing right now regarding the draft. I would keep the Okung interest quiet.
The whole world knows they need a left tackle and he'll be a Redskins Park the first week in April.
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When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hold on....
Of course Bradford is going number one, that has been a sure thing for a long time, Suh or McCoy were NOT going to go number one; period.
The debate over the Ram's pick should be over by now.
The Lions' pick is more questionable since they would like to trade out of it, but it seems pretty sure.
Unless something really crazy happens and it's possible, there are 4 guys at the top and it looks like we are getting either Bradford or Okung
I'm pretty sure the Rams are taking Bradford and unless these guys want to take a huge risk, we are getting Okung
We need to find a QB and I hope the only QB we are interested in using a draft pick on this year is Bradford - so we'll have Campbell and these other guys for a while while we get things sorted out on offense
it's true that you don't need a great QB if all the other parts of the offense are OK but that's what you'll be - an OK offense - this franchise will not be consistently competitive with an OK QB
Shanahan and Allen want to be better than OK and will find a way to have an offense that works in the NFL but more importantly has a leader at QB - that type of QB/leader is not here at this time - not even close
Okung will help but fortunately there are a lot of good offensive line players here and we'll need a couple of years to get it all together
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
SkinsJock wrote:Unless something really crazy happens and it's possible, there are 4 guys at the top and it looks like we are getting either Bradford or Okung
If Suh or McCoy fall then we are very likely to take them. Even if they don't, I think Clausen is definitely being strongly considered as well. And Berry is definitely in play and should be. When you get a guy that talented available at #4 you have to think long term and getting special players, not just filling short term needs. It really depends a lot on their evaluations of Bradford, Okung and Clausen. If they rate them with the top guys, they'll be the pick. If they rate them below Suh, McCoy and Berry they may not be. We really have to pick talent first with a pick that high.
Hail to the Redskins!
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him
Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
I agree, for the most part - if the draft order stays the same, there is little doubt as to the top 3 is all I'm saying and I just don't see them taking anyone but Okung at 4
I'm totally in favor of taking Claussen if they think he's going to be a really good QB but I don't think that is the case
I'm in favor of trying to get a really good QB in place here as soon as possible - I feel that the O line is important but there is no way you do very well without a very good QB, no matter how great the O line is - so while we need a good offensive line, IMHO, it is even more important to have a really good QB
If they cannot get Bradford, I really hope we take Okung and find a great QB somewhere else because I don't think Claussen is that QB
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
SkinsJock wrote:If they cannot get Bradford, I really hope we take Okung and find a great QB somewhere else because I don't think Claussen is that QB
I can't disagree personally, but the pros seem to be split on him being worth #4 so it's hard to say what Shanny and Allen will decide for sure. I'm with you that I'd be a lot more comfortable picking Okung then Clausen if the first three are Bradford, Suh and McCoy, but we'll have to see. I also think we need to seriously consider Berry. He's good enough even at Safety to be the guy there.
Also, while the first three do seem to be set, you never know for sure and there's the possibility of trades shaking things up.
Hail to the Redskins!
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him
Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
ey
that sounds like it makes a whole lot of sense 
