Skins 3-4, Haynesworth DE, no big deal

[fleetus]

I think Shanahan hired Haslett with the 3-4 in mind. That doesn't make it 100%, but probably about 85-90% done deal unless Haslett gets here and realizes the 3-4 just won't work.

Albert will most likely be a DE in the 3-4. Yes his size makes you think NT, but his athleticism dictates he should be at DE. 20 years ago, 3-4 DE's were gap-stuffers. Today, 3-4 DE's are athletic, strong and versatile. Plus he is not selfless enough to play NT. NT will be more of a size/strength guy to plug up the middle. Albert has too much agility to be wasted in the middle. Expect Haynesworth to be used much like Bal uses Ngata. Ngata is 6-4, 345, same size as Albert. Don't worry Albert, Ngata is headed to his first Pro Bowl this year, so it can be done.

I think the 3-4 would be an improvement. The fact is the league has gone in the direction of the passing game recently and defenses have to be more flexible with blitzing options and coverage options. Hell, Belichick is known for putting 5 and 6 LB's in some formations and you have no idea who's dropping and who's rushing. Bottom line, it is time for the Skins to make the necessary change to 3-4.

If you can find the right NT, then good LB's are in abundance through the draft every year.

What's in a 3-4 besides one guy not putting his hand on the ground? Not much, IMO. I don't think the importance of the 3-4 is that it takes some different personnel. I believe the importance of the 3-4 is how teams practice. That's right A.I., I'm talking about practice! About half of the league's 4-3 DE's are capable of dropping into coverage as a 3-4 OLB. But 3-4 teams practice that flexibility every day. 4-3 often times are less likely to drop their ends in zone blitzes. The down lineman have to switch their gap responsibilities some, but again, it's not that it takes a wholly different skill set, just takes time to learn a new scheme.

Take Orakpo, for instance. Many of you guys said he needed to be used as a full time DE to be effective. But he practiced and played as an OLB and was almost rookie of the year. Now, what's the difference between Orakpo a year ago and today? Not much, but he practiced as an OLB every week. He still got to rush the QB from a down stance fairly often. I think most of the Skins' players can play the 3-4 just as effectively and by practicing a 3-4 most of the time they will be more versatile and flexible.

The only real serious personnel adjustment needed in a 3-4 is finding a great NT. It is a thankless job. Requires a mammoth man in size and strength. A guy who doesn't mind going the whole season without a sack. Haynesworth is NOT a good NT candidate. Monty might be. Drafting a guy will likely be necessary, at least for depth.

Carter has the right size, speed and athleticism to be a 3-4 OLB but I recall he did not like that position in SF very much. I think he has problems in coverage, so he is a question mark, given his age and salary. He may be moved along.

Fletcher should be fine at ILB. He's not as big as some 3-4 ILB's but he's no slouch. It might be good to pair him with another ILB who has more size/strength.

I hope we do switch to 3-4 because it is an easier defense to draft for and a more flexible defense in today's NFL.

[BurgundyandGoldfaith]

Trade down and take

http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2010-nfl-dra ... -cody.html

then use 2nd, 3rds on O-line

Unless Suh is there

[BurgundyandGoldfaith]

And if Suh is there, later on you could get DT Phil Taylor

[yupchagee]

I think Shanahan hired Haslett with the 3-4 in mind. That doesn't make it 100%, but probably about 85-90% done deal unless Haslett gets here and realizes the 3-4 just won't work.

Albert will most likely be a DE in the 3-4. Yes his size makes you think NT, but his athleticism dictates he should be at DE. 20 years ago, 3-4 DE's were gap-stuffers. Today, 3-4 DE's are athletic, strong and versatile. Plus he is not selfless enough to play NT. NT will be more of a size/strength guy to plug up the middle. Albert has too much agility to be wasted in the middle. Expect Haynesworth to be used much like Bal uses Ngata. Ngata is 6-4, 345, same size as Albert. Don't worry Albert, Ngata is headed to his first Pro Bowl this year, so it can be done.

I think the 3-4 would be an improvement. The fact is the league has gone in the direction of the passing game recently and defenses have to be more flexible with blitzing options and coverage options. Hell, Belichick is known for putting 5 and 6 LB's in some formations and you have no idea who's dropping and who's rushing. Bottom line, it is time for the Skins to make the necessary change to 3-4.

If you can find the right NT, then good LB's are in abundance through the draft every year.

What's in a 3-4 besides one guy not putting his hand on the ground? Not much, IMO. I don't think the importance of the 3-4 is that it takes some different personnel. I believe the importance of the 3-4 is how teams practice. That's right A.I., I'm talking about practice! About half of the league's 4-3 DE's are capable of dropping into coverage as a 3-4 OLB. But 3-4 teams practice that flexibility every day. 4-3 often times are less likely to drop their ends in zone blitzes. The down lineman have to switch their gap responsibilities some, but again, it's not that it takes a wholly different skill set, just takes time to learn a new scheme.

Take Orakpo, for instance. Many of you guys said he needed to be used as a full time DE to be effective. But he practiced and played as an OLB and was almost rookie of the year. Now, what's the difference between Orakpo a year ago and today? Not much, but he practiced as an OLB every week. He still got to rush the QB from a down stance fairly often. I think most of the Skins' players can play the 3-4 just as effectively and by practicing a 3-4 most of the time they will be more versatile and flexible.

The only real serious personnel adjustment needed in a 3-4 is finding a great NT. It is a thankless job. Requires a mammoth man in size and strength. A guy who doesn't mind going the whole season without a sack. Haynesworth is NOT a good NT candidate. Monty might be. Drafting a guy will likely be necessary, at least for depth.

Carter has the right size, speed and athleticism to be a 3-4 OLB but I recall he did not like that position in SF very much. I think he has problems in coverage, so he is a question mark, given his age and salary. He may be moved along.

Fletcher should be fine at ILB. He's not as big as some 3-4 ILB's but he's no slouch. It might be good to pair him with another ILB who has more size/strength.

I hope we do switch to 3-4 because it is an easier defense to draft for and a more flexible defense in today's NFL.

I think Shanahan hired Haslett with the 3-4 in mind.[/

Didn't Shanahan run a 4-3 in Denver?

Monty might be.

Monty is more likely headed to the UFL based on this year,

It might be good to pair him with another ILB who has more size/strength.

Where does that leave Rocky? Who do we have that fits this description?
We can't use early pick for D given our needs on O, esp O-line.

[PulpExposure]

Albert will most likely be a DE in the 3-4. Yes his size makes you think NT, but his athleticism dictates he should be at DE. 20 years ago, 3-4 DE's were gap-stuffers. Today, 3-4 DE's are athletic, strong and versatile. Plus he is not selfless enough to play NT. NT will be more of a size/strength guy to plug up the middle. Albert has too much agility to be wasted in the middle. Expect Haynesworth to be used much like Bal uses Ngata. Ngata is 6-4, 345, same size as Albert. Don't worry Albert, Ngata is headed to his first Pro Bowl this year, so it can be done.

Ngata had a whopping 35 tackles and 1.5 sacks this year, and has had 6.5 sacks over his 4 year career. If this is your example of someone who isn't just there to occupy blockers, and an example of what you hope that Haynesworth would be...well...we have a different view of what $100 million on the d-line gets you.

[chiefhog44]

I don't mind moving to the 3-4 as much as I mind hearing Hanesworth complain about it nonstop

[HEROHAMO]

Has the switch even been confirmed? I have a funny feeling the staff will stick to a 4-3. Even though I much prefer we had a 3-4.

[Chris Luva Luva]

If we gon blow it up, lets get both the offense and defense out the way at once. I'd hate to see the offense get on track and all of a sudden they wanna switch to the 3-4 and we have lopsided team.

[HEROHAMO]

I agree the switch needs to happen this season if it is going to happen.

[fleetus]

Albert will most likely be a DE in the 3-4. Yes his size makes you think NT, but his athleticism dictates he should be at DE. 20 years ago, 3-4 DE's were gap-stuffers. Today, 3-4 DE's are athletic, strong and versatile. Plus he is not selfless enough to play NT. NT will be more of a size/strength guy to plug up the middle. Albert has too much agility to be wasted in the middle. Expect Haynesworth to be used much like Bal uses Ngata. Ngata is 6-4, 345, same size as Albert. Don't worry Albert, Ngata is headed to his first Pro Bowl this year, so it can be done.

Ngata had a whopping 35 tackles and 1.5 sacks this year, and has had 6.5 sacks over his 4 year career. If this is your example of someone who isn't just there to occupy blockers, and an example of what you hope that Haynesworth would be...well...we have a different view of what $100 million on the d-line gets you.

This is football so there are some players who are more valuable without filling up stat sheets. and Albert is originally a DT who has averaged 3.5 sacks a year over his 8 year career. So we're not talking about moving Elvis Demervil and his 17 sacks to NT. 3-4 is almost like using 3 DT's on the line instead of 2DT's and 2 DE's. So Albert will be an "outside DT" so to speak. Yes the gap responsibilities may LOOK different, but really they aren't all that much. At the end of the day, you still have two "A" gaps, two "B" gaps and two "C" gaps. You can control those six gaps with 3 DT's watching 2 gaps each, or you can ask your NT to control 2, your DE's to control 1 each and have two LB's control a gap each. Or any other combination.

So don't get so hung up on stats. and don't get hung up on terminology. Andre Carter could have been called an OLB rushing Joey Porter/Jason Taylor style with nothing but an weakside C gap responsibility and guess what, you are now a 3-4 instead of a 4-3! So what. It's still football, still 6 gaps, Haynesworth doesn't magically get swallowed up by the same double-team of linemen he's always faced.

[PulpExposure]

This is football so there are some players who are more valuable without filling up stat sheets. and Albert is originally a DT who has averaged 3.5 sacks a year over his 8 year career.

Apples to apples, let's look at the past 3 seasons for both. Ngata has 5.5 sacks in the past 3 seasons. Aaron Smith, likely the best 3-4 DE in the league, has had 10.

Haynesworth has 18.5.

What this tells you is...when the best 2 3-4 DEs in the NFL, playing in different 3-4 systems, on teams which actually have the talent to run 3-4s...and they still don't penetrate.

Going back to your original quote:

20 years ago, 3-4 DE's were gap-stuffers. Today, 3-4 DE's are athletic, strong and versatile.

Really? Can you point out a 3-4 DE in the league now who isn't a gap-stuffer? I've already looked at Ngata and Smith for you.

You can control those six gaps with 3 DT's watching 2 gaps each, or you can ask your NT to control 2, your DE's to control 1 each and have two LB's control a gap each. Or any other combination.

Which LBs on the Redskins could you ask to crash a 3-4 gap? Please...let me know. Because we don't have a single inside guy who could do it, and the only outside guy who we're pretty sure could play OLB is Orakpo. And do you really want him tying up linemen?

Because right now, Haynesworth is the only guy who could play 3-4 on our line, and would absolutely be required to tie up blockers only. Which would be a massive misuse of him. There's a reason that 3-4 linemen are, by and large, paid less than 4-3 lineman. They're less important...the money in the 3-4 goes to the LBs.

In addition, this brings up a bigger point; what a misuse this would be of our current talent. Every other defensive lineman we have is a 4-3 lineman only. Yes, Carter played 3-4 OLB in San Fran.. In fact, he played that position so well, they got rid of him. Again, every linebacker we have is a 4-3 linebacker, has only played in a 4-3 system, and we're just hoping they could make the transition.

I understand people are excited about the 3-4. It's new, it's different. However, please understand that teams still are winning with the 4-3; for example, the Giants won the SB 2 years ago, primarily on the backbone of their 4-3 defense. Interestingly, of the 8 teams playing this weekend, 4 use a 3-4, 4 use a 4-3. You can win with either.

If you can find the right NT, then good LB's are in abundance through the draft every year.

Ok. Does it make sense to spend those draft picks this year on LBs instead of line? Really?

Right now, we have a pretty good 4-3 defense, and we'd need to invest significant resources on that side to rework the defense into a 3-4 defense. Considering how awful our offense is, and how much we need to dedicate in money and draft picks to rebuild that, does it make sense to transition away from a very good 4-3 defense to a new defense at the same time?

[fleetus]

This is football so there are some players who are more valuable without filling up stat sheets. and Albert is originally a DT who has averaged 3.5 sacks a year over his 8 year career.

Apples to apples, let's look at the past 3 seasons for both. Ngata has 5.5 sacks in the past 3 seasons. Aaron Smith, likely the best 3-4 DE in the league, has had 10.

Haynesworth has 18.5.

What this tells you is...when the best 2 3-4 DEs in the NFL, playing in different 3-4 systems, on teams which actually have the talent to run 3-4s...and they still don't penetrate.

Going back to your original quote:

20 years ago, 3-4 DE's were gap-stuffers. Today, 3-4 DE's are athletic, strong and versatile.

Really? Can you point out a 3-4 DE in the league now who isn't a gap-stuffer? I've already looked at Ngata and Smith for you.

You can control those six gaps with 3 DT's watching 2 gaps each, or you can ask your NT to control 2, your DE's to control 1 each and have two LB's control a gap each. Or any other combination.

Which LBs on the Redskins could you ask to crash a 3-4 gap? Please...let me know. Because we don't have a single inside guy who could do it, and the only outside guy who we're pretty sure could play OLB is Orakpo. And do you really want him tying up linemen?

Because right now, Haynesworth is the only guy who could play 3-4 on our line, and would absolutely be required to tie up blockers only. Which would be a massive misuse of him. There's a reason that 3-4 linemen are, by and large, paid less than 4-3 lineman. They're less important...the money in the 3-4 goes to the LBs.

In addition, this brings up a bigger point; what a misuse this would be of our current talent. Every other defensive lineman we have is a 4-3 lineman only. Yes, Carter played 3-4 OLB in San Fran.. In fact, he played that position so well, they got rid of him. Again, every linebacker we have is a 4-3 linebacker, has only played in a 4-3 system, and we're just hoping they could make the transition.

I understand people are excited about the 3-4. It's new, it's different. However, please understand that teams still are winning with the 4-3; for example, the Giants won the SB 2 years ago, primarily on the backbone of their 4-3 defense. Interestingly, of the 8 teams playing this weekend, 4 use a 3-4, 4 use a 4-3. You can win with either.

If you can find the right NT, then good LB's are in abundance through the draft every year.

Ok. Does it make sense to spend those draft picks this year on LBs instead of line? Really?

Right now, we have a pretty good 4-3 defense, and we'd need to invest significant resources on that side to rework the defense into a 3-4 defense. Considering how awful our offense is, and how much we need to dedicate in money and draft picks to rebuild that, does it make sense to transition away from a very good 4-3 defense to a new defense at the same time?

What REdskins are capable of crashing gaps? All of them? Is this a trick question? Okay, two of our LB's are maybe 5-10# smaller than your ideal 3-4 LB's, but that doesn't make them weaklings. Orakpo will be a natural. All the DL's besides Carter will be ideal for the 3-4. Carter could become an OLB to make for a decent sized OLB. I don't think you understand football, sorry. A gap is a gap. Going to a 3-4 doesn't transform the 5 OL into unblockable monsters. It just means ONE less player is traditionally starting the play with his hand on the ground. Make Carter an OLB and you already have a 3-4 If all you care about is sacks, play Madden. QB hurries, pushing the pocket and tackles are all more important than sacks when discussing DL's. Let's just hope Haynesworth is enough of a team player to handle the switch. Character has been not been his strong suit.

[CanesSkins26]

Carter could become an OLB to make for a decent sized OLB.

The 49ers tried him as an OLB in a 3-4 and he struggled in that role. He is a 4-3 DE.

[fleetus]

Carter could become an OLB to make for a decent sized OLB.

The 49ers tried him as an OLB in a 3-4 and he struggled in that role. He is a 4-3 DE.

I know, was just making the point that there are plenty of 3-4 OLB's with same size and strength as Carter.

I also worry about Carter in a 3-4. Likely will need to move on. I see Griffin, Daniels, Haynesworth, Monty, Gholston, and Wynn all being just fine on the line.

[CanesSkins26]

Carter could become an OLB to make for a decent sized OLB.

The 49ers tried him as an OLB in a 3-4 and he struggled in that role. He is a 4-3 DE.

I know, was just making the point that there are plenty of 3-4 OLB's with same size and strength as Carter.

I also worry about Carter in a 3-4. Likely will need to move on. I see Griffin, Daniels, Haynesworth, Monty, Gholston, and Wynn all being just fine on the line.

Griffin=old and injury prone
Wynn= old; hardly contributed at all this season
Daniels=old
Monty=not very good

I would much rather stay in a 4-3 and keep Carter than go 3-4 and have to rely on that bunch.

[newcastleskinsfan]

I think a 3-4 is a good move , and an almost cert with Haslett in . Haynesworth has to go at NT , but in 3rd down situations we could move him onto the DE edge .

carter like many is the biggest concern , how will he adapt to a 3-4 . He is our best pass rusher ( my opinion ) and we have bigger early draft needs than a replacement .

[USAFSkinFan]

I don't think the 3-4 is a simple issue for this coming season...

Forget about Hynesworth for a minute...Orakpo, Carter, and Wilson all made plays with their hand in the dirt... none of them have done much out of a two point stance... they are pass rushing defensive ends, not 3-4 linebackers... Jarmon showed promise at DE in limited time as a supplemental rookie... there is no pllace for him in a 3-4... we've got several other players with th same issue, not to mention having no one capable or desiring to play NT...

I absolutely think we can put some great 3-4 packages on the field at certain spots in a game, but I would be shocked if we switch to that as our base defense without some major personnel changes... that's probably a couple years away...

[DarthMonk]

Haynesworth is an excellent physical specimen and talent for NT but sadly, almost definitely lacks the attitude.

DarthMonk

[The Hogster]

If we switch to 3-4, it will be more of a gradual change. I expect us to play more of an hybrid Defense alternating between the 3-4, 4-3, and 46 alignments much like Baltimore. We simply don't have the personnell and depth to run the pure 3-4 like Pitt. Not yet.

[SkinsJock]

I think we'll be running an offense that is a hybrid offense too



might just be easier to say we'll just be a hybrid team from here on

[chiefhog44]

For his part, Fletcher believes the Redskins have the right personnel to run the 3-4.

“Really, some of the things that we did last year were of a 3-4 defensive concept, even though we didn’t necessarily call it a 3-4,” Fletcher said. “Our main defense was basically an under front that was similar, really, to what Dallas does and to what even Arizona does.

“The only difference was, instead of having a true standup outside linebacker, Andre Carter just had his hand on the ground [as a defensive end]. So if you can imagine him just standing up, we’re pretty much like Dallas and Arizona Cardinals in a 3-4 defense.”

http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Fo ... 101964.jsp