frankcal20 wrote:I would take JC with a stud RT from the draft vs more of the same o-line and a rookie QB getting sacked, no running game any day.
A loss is a loss I guess!
At least with the rookie QB you would have someone to build around, but of course you have to draft OL, but we already know even with good protection and a good line, JC won't ever develop into a great QB. And you have to have a great QB for sustained high level performance.
Yes, you can have a journeyman QB with a really good running game and a great D and you get to be the Ravens a yo-yo of a football team with one SB to show for the team that has had the best defense in any ten year stretch. How many SB would they have won with Peyton? Many more than the Colts!
How many SB would Gibbs 1.0 have had if Joe Montana had been his QB during that run? Would anyone have won a SB other than the Skins? Heck Gibbs could have won 5 or 6 with Bernie Kosar!
Draft a great OL and keep JC and this team WILL improve, but it will never be championship caliber and it will yo-yo just like the Ravens.
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain"
(It is time to roll the dice) Tai'shar Manetheren
"Duty is heavier than a Mountain, Death is lighter than a feather" Tai'shar Malkier
frankcal20 wrote:I would take JC with a stud RT from the draft vs more of the same o-line and a rookie QB getting sacked, no running game any day.
A loss is a loss I guess!
At least with the rookie QB you would have someone to build around, but of course you have to draft OL, but we already know even with good protection and a good line, JC won't ever develop into a great QB. And you have to have a great QB for sustained high level performance.
Yes, you can have a journeyman QB with a really good running game and a great D and you get to be the Ravens a yo-yo of a football team with one SB to show for the team that has had the best defense in any ten year stretch. How many SB would they have won with Peyton? Many more than the Colts!
How many SB would Gibbs 1.0 have had if Joe Montana had been his QB during that run? Would anyone have won a SB other than the Skins? Heck Gibbs could have won 5 or 6 with Bernie Kosar!
Draft a great OL and keep JC and this team WILL improve, but it will never be championship caliber and it will yo-yo just like the Ravens.
But see I feel like you are expecting this team with a change at QB to be SB bound. Also, you have to see that the chances of drafting a QB and him being mediocre is far greater than that QB being a Peyton, Ben, Tom or whoever. None of those teams are worth a darn without a stout, smart and effective offensive line. Championships are won up front and if we can get healthy and young at the position we stand a far better chance at success than if we go out next year with the same line and a rookie QB. Because what are we going to do if we loose another one or two guys next year. That QB stands no chance. He will then be going through the growing pains that JC's gone through. I would much rather have a good oline, if possible, sign JC to a 3 year extension, cut Collins and then bring in a really good, late round QB who may have had some injury issues early in his career who has shown to be smart and accurate in his passes. He doesn't need to have a canon or be super fast. Just needs to be smart and shows the willingness to learn. At the same time, you would give yourself a QB who knows the team, can come into the game and move the ball and it also allows him the chance to grow as a player.
VetSkinsFan wrote:Orton missed Royal wide open, too.
He didn't miss Marshall... twice
And that's part of my point. He didn't miss on those two. He was two for three with the third being the last one. He hit the first two.
That's B.S. Marshall had NOBODY within 20 yards of him on either play. Moss had 4 steps. Campbell should have made the throw, but there is the danger if he underthrows it that its a pick. As wide open as Marshall was, I could have hit him for both of those T.D.'s
VetSkinsFan wrote:Orton missed Royal wide open, too.
He didn't miss Marshall... twice
And that's part of my point. He didn't miss on those two. He was two for three with the third being the last one. He hit the first two.
That's B.S. Marshall had NOBODY within 20 yards of him on either play. Moss had 4 steps. Campbell should have made the throw, but there is the danger if he underthrows it that its a pick. As wide open as Marshall was, I could have hit him for both of those T.D.'s
Call it what you want. Whether it's 4 steps or 40 and it's eight times a game, a starting NFL QB should be able to hit that throw. The first was a little behind Marshall but he was still on the run.
Wait a minute... What is your point??
Sean Taylor - 1983-2007 R.I.P.... Forever A Skin.....
You could make the argument that all Orton had to do was heave it up there and get it within 10 years of Marshall. With Moss, he had a small window and it didn't help that Moss was running right along the sideline. As a WR, you are supposed to give yourself 2 to 3 yards of space from the sideline to allow yourself room to get your feet down if need be. That's route running 101. But I'm not going to fault Moss on that play b/c he did what he was supposed to, which was to get open. But you can't compare Moss' play vs any of the Marshall's TD's. A better comparison was the Royal pass b/c there was a defender in the vacinity and like JC, Orton overthrew.
JC's problem is between his ears. He's sloooow to make a decision and then often can't make the pass. At this point in his career, he should be quicker and on target a higher percentage of the time. I bet the FO sees this too because they haven't offered JC a new contract, and in the off season they were looking at other QB options.
I would like JC to be our franchise QB - but it ain't gonna happen. And TC is old. Next year we realistically looking at a new #1 and #2 - especially with a new HC.
rick301 wrote:JC's problem is between his ears. He's sloooow to make a decision and then often can't make the pass. At this point in his career, he should be quicker and on target a higher percentage of the time. I bet the FO sees this too because they haven't offered JC a new contract, and in the off season they were looking at other QB options.
I would like JC to be our franchise QB - but it ain't gonna happen. And TC is old. Next year we realistically looking at a new #1 and #2 - especially with a new HC.
I often wonder why JC holds on the ball so long and misses open receiveres. And I honestly believe he does not see the field the way other top QB's do.
If you simply look at Manning/Brady/Favre or Brees, they get up to the line and quickly assess what type of coverage they are facing. Audible based on the coverege, know exactly where ALL receivers will be. Get to them qucikly.
Now let's see for comparisons sake: since JC has been the starting QB, Schaub, Orton, Favre, and Brees have ALL changed offenses and more to the point have changed ball clubs. They have all had greater success than JC has had, who has been with the same team.
Not to mention the success of rookies like Flacco, Matt Ryan and Sanchez. All of these QBs have had greater sucess than JC already, and look poised to easily surpass what JC will accomplish down the road.
So, yes, it's time to go in a different direction in the off season. No Questions!
frankcal20 wrote:You could make the argument that all Orton had to do was heave it up there and get it within 10 years of Marshall. With Moss, he had a small window and it didn't help that Moss was running right along the sideline. As a WR, you are supposed to give yourself 2 to 3 yards of space from the sideline to allow yourself room to get your feet down if need be. That's route running 101. But I'm not going to fault Moss on that play b/c he did what he was supposed to, which was to get open. But you can't compare Moss' play vs any of the Marshall's TD's. A better comparison was the Royal pass b/c there was a defender in the vacinity and like JC, Orton overthrew.
I was going to quote Vet earlier, but waited unitl I read the entire thread.
There is ZERO comparison here, other than the fact that they were both overthrown balls.
Orton was not only under extreme pressure, but on the run. Campbell had all the time he needed to set his feet, square up, and make an accurate throw.
The point is, Campbell is just bad. He may be a great guy and a locker room/team favorite, but he is a bad QB.
Well I like him regardless of what anyone else here thinks and I really do think that he's got the skills to be a very good QB in the league. But there needs to be some stability for him to learn under. Most guys would fail with this much instability.
Campbell is bad. Inconsistant and does not have the fire needed to lead this team. Not sure what's next. The chicken or the egg. Do we get a top flight QB or a top flight LT. Hope it's a LT. Here's what'll happen though.
Vinny will stay on, Zorn will too. Levi Jones plays an outstanding rest of the year and Vinny thinkshe's the answer and continues to ignore the O-line.
Miss you 21
12/17/09 - Ding Dong the Witch is Dead...Which Old Witch? The Wicked Witch.
I still like Cutler. IMO we should do the classic "go after a big name" in the offseason, only do it with a QB. Then focus the draft on the O-line. This is basically what I think we are going to do anyways, im just trying to claim it now...
I don't think that we need a young buck QB unless we use one from our roster that's on IR this year. I'd seriously be happy with Garcia and rebuild the line while grooming Brennen or another prospect. We've groomed Campbell for 5 years now and he still sucks. His ship has sailed.
frankcal20 wrote:I would take JC with a stud RT from the draft vs more of the same o-line and a rookie QB getting sacked, no running game any day.
A loss is a loss I guess!
At least with the rookie QB you would have someone to build around, but of course you have to draft OL, but we already know even with good protection and a good line, JC won't ever develop into a great QB. And you have to have a great QB for sustained high level performance.
Yes, you can have a journeyman QB with a really good running game and a great D and you get to be the Ravens a yo-yo of a football team with one SB to show for the team that has had the best defense in any ten year stretch. How many SB would they have won with Peyton? Many more than the Colts!
How many SB would Gibbs 1.0 have had if Joe Montana had been his QB during that run? Would anyone have won a SB other than the Skins? Heck Gibbs could have won 5 or 6 with Bernie Kosar!
Draft a great OL and keep JC and this team WILL improve, but it will never be championship caliber and it will yo-yo just like the Ravens.
You can't assume that any drafted QB will be successful. How's that workin out for the Browns? The Raiders? Even a high draft QB isn't guaranteed to be successful. I'd rather rebuild the line this year and keep JC at the helm and address the QB position in 2011 than put any QB behind this line. Every week except vs the Broncos, JC has been pummeled. No QB will succeed that way.
And in your examples, you pull arguable the best QB of all time (or at least top 5) and arguably the best offensive line of all time to prove a point. Exaggerate much? Didn't Timmy Smith (1 game wonder)set a SuperBowl record with that JG 1.0 line?
...any given Sunday....
RIP #21 Sean Taylor. You will be loved and adored by Redskins fans forever!!!!!
GSPODS:
The National Anthem sucks.
What a useless piece of propagandist rhetoric that is.
frankcal20 wrote:I would take JC with a stud RT from the draft vs more of the same o-line and a rookie QB getting sacked, no running game any day.
A loss is a loss I guess!
At least with the rookie QB you would have someone to build around, but of course you have to draft OL, but we already know even with good protection and a good line, JC won't ever develop into a great QB. And you have to have a great QB for sustained high level performance.
Yes, you can have a journeyman QB with a really good running game and a great D and you get to be the Ravens a yo-yo of a football team with one SB to show for the team that has had the best defense in any ten year stretch. How many SB would they have won with Peyton? Many more than the Colts!
How many SB would Gibbs 1.0 have had if Joe Montana had been his QB during that run? Would anyone have won a SB other than the Skins? Heck Gibbs could have won 5 or 6 with Bernie Kosar!
Draft a great OL and keep JC and this team WILL improve, but it will never be championship caliber and it will yo-yo just like the Ravens.
You can't assume that any drafted QB will be successful. How's that workin out for the Browns? The Raiders? Even a high draft QB isn't guaranteed to be successful. I'd rather rebuild the line this year and keep JC at the helm and address the QB position in 2011 than put any QB behind this line. Every week except vs the Broncos, JC has been pummeled. No QB will succeed that way.
And in your examples, you pull arguable the best QB of all time (or at least top 5) and arguably the best offensive line of all time to prove a point. Exaggerate much? Didn't Timmy Smith (1 game wonder)set a SuperBowl record with that JG 1.0 line?
Agreed Vet and history has shown you can win with a average QB...not saying you'll win every year like Manning and Brady but the league is full of successful teams that have a good OL and play great D
"Sean Taylor is hands down the best athlete I've ever coached it's not even close" Gregg Williams 2005 Mini-Camp
frankcal20 wrote:I would take JC with a stud RT from the draft vs more of the same o-line and a rookie QB getting sacked, no running game any day.
A loss is a loss I guess!
At least with the rookie QB you would have someone to build around, but of course you have to draft OL, but we already know even with good protection and a good line, JC won't ever develop into a great QB. And you have to have a great QB for sustained high level performance.
Yes, you can have a journeyman QB with a really good running game and a great D and you get to be the Ravens a yo-yo of a football team with one SB to show for the team that has had the best defense in any ten year stretch. How many SB would they have won with Peyton? Many more than the Colts!
How many SB would Gibbs 1.0 have had if Joe Montana had been his QB during that run? Would anyone have won a SB other than the Skins? Heck Gibbs could have won 5 or 6 with Bernie Kosar!
Draft a great OL and keep JC and this team WILL improve, but it will never be championship caliber and it will yo-yo just like the Ravens.
You can't assume that any drafted QB will be successful. How's that workin out for the Browns? The Raiders? Even a high draft QB isn't guaranteed to be successful. I'd rather rebuild the line this year and keep JC at the helm and address the QB position in 2011 than put any QB behind this line. Every week except vs the Broncos, JC has been pummeled. No QB will succeed that way.
And in your examples, you pull arguable the best QB of all time (or at least top 5) and arguably the best offensive line of all time to prove a point. Exaggerate much? Didn't Timmy Smith (1 game wonder)set a SuperBowl record with that JG 1.0 line?
Agreed Vet and history has shown you can win with a average QB...not saying you'll win every year like Manning and Brady but the league is full of successful teams that have a good OL and play great D
Unfortunately, JC isn't an average NFL qb. He is awful and there is ZERO chance of him being the starter for us next year.
Scottskins wrote:I am not defending Campbell here, but I think he was hit before he released the ball on that grounding pass.
I would dump Jason, bring a free agent, draft a top QB and spend the rest of the draft working on OLine.
Should have made the pass to the guy on the first pump fake. campbell is dumb and can't make those reactions that quickly
Thats a pretty ignorant statement. I would say he's pretty smart because a DUMB qb would be throwing a ton of passes that have 0 chance of being made. Jay Cutler played a pretty dumb game last week trying to force the ball to the TE on every turn over.
I began this year, not really liking the chances for Campbell but hoping that he was going to make the most of the opportunity and maybe show that he can be a good back-up QB and maybe even be the starting QB here until we are able to get the next great Redskins' QB into the starting lineup
Now I'm not sure that he's even going to be able to make the roster here next year - I think we'll get a FA QB and hopefully draft a QB but who the 3rd QB is going to be is going to depend on which coach the next GM picks to come in here and what type of offense that GM and coach decide they are going to use here
I like Campbell but IMO he's just not good enough - we still have 7 games to go though and he could surprise us but I highly doubt it
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
I am sure that most people that read this board regularly know my position on this, but I want to make clear that it would have been nice to see JC succeed, especially after all we invested in him, but I think that we can all agree that it is not going to happen ---- and that it won't happen on another team.
The first indication of his worth came in the offseason when Danny/Vinny put him up on the chopping block for either a Cutler trade or for a 2nd round draft pick. They even tried to do a 3-way trade with Cleveland for Quinn, but neither Cleveland nor Denver wanted to end up with JC. Denver ended up taking LESS for Orton over JC. When this trade attempt failed, Danny/Vinny lowered their asking price to a 3rd round pick straight up for JC (which is embarrasing seeing is how we wasted 2 1st round picks on him) --- still no offers. I truly believe that this was an indication of the opinions qualified personell thought of JC.
After the rumors came and went that JC was on the trading block, JC vowed to show his "inner dragon" and show the organization what he was capable of. What has happened since then? Same old JC --- actually he has been worse, IMHO.
JC has had the same issues since he entered the league. He misses recievers/TEs, can't throw deep, takes too long to make decisions, doesn't pick up defensive fronts well or alert the offensive line to blitzes or D packages (after all the QB is the ONLY person that can see the field clearly prior to the hike), still can't slide, cannot adjust to a decent pass rush, lacks the ability to process the play from the pocket, lacks pocket mobility, no leadership qualities, not vocal, has a HORRIBLE play action fake, doesn't learn offenses quickly, and doesn't take ownership for the team when he should (after all, he did make it clear that HE was having a good year up to the Bucs game). None of these things have improved, even though they have been highly emphasized by the coaching staff.
I am not trying to dump on JC, although I am. My main intention is to articulate the certain qualities that QBs need to be successful in the NFL which JC lacks. JC has not improved from his second year in the league. I found it crazy that people thought he was going to magically transform this year into the QB we all KNOW he is capable of, but has not achieved.
Is it a product of the system or FO or poor blocking or bad receivers or any other reason that has been stated in an attempt to support JC? I have never thought so. This team has bent over backwards to see JC succeed. They went out and got receivers, they brought in a QB coach as the HC, they brought in a QB2 just so JC could learn an offense. Nothing has worked.
In the past 5 years the skins have been to the playoffs 2 times. Both times JC wasn't the starting QB. All other years, JC was the QB and we have missed the playoffs. Say what you want, but I believe there is a direct link to JC, here.
JC, most likely, will be gone after this year. While I think that he is a great guy, it is for the best. We need to move on.
I don't think most of us thought Campbell would become a good QB - we just hoped he would - I was at least hoping that he would 'respond' to what happened and would possibly be able to fill in here until we found a really good QB
I think that we will see a lot of changes in this franchise early next year and hopefully someone finds a way to get a QB in here that can pave the way for a really great QB that also is hopefully in B&G by the begining of next season
I really doubt that Campbell will make this roster no matter what type of offense the new GM and coaching staff want to implement - he is just not good enough, sorry
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
ChampsTurf wrote:I don't think that we need a young buck QB unless we use one from our roster that's on IR this year. I'd seriously be happy with Garcia and rebuild the line while grooming Brennen or another prospect. We've groomed Campbell for 5 years now and he still sucks. His ship has sailed.
While I agree with the latter part of your statement, in that Campbell's time with the Redskins has come and gone, the former is nonsensical. Brennan? I doubt Brennan will ever play in the NFL. And Garcia? Seriously? He's 39, hasn't played in a year (with the Bucs in 2008), and is so good...he's a free agent right now. Even the freaking Browns and other QB needy teams won't look at him. What does that say about his current status?
And you want him to start for us next year? You hoping for the Redskins to get a real high 1st round draft pick in the 2011 draft?
VetSkinsFan wrote:You can't assume that any drafted QB will be successful. How's that workin out for the Browns? The Raiders? Even a high draft QB isn't guaranteed to be successful.
Yeah, drafting QBs high has really worked out for us, hasn't it? I mean...Ramsey, 3 years later Campbell...both 1sts that were essentially worthless.
markshark84 wrote: JC (which is embarrasing seeing is how we wasted 2 1st round picks on him)
It was a 1st, 3rd and 4th, not 2 1sts. We used our 1st in the 2005 draft on Carlos, and then traded our first from the 2006 draft to get the 25th in the 2005 draft to get Campbell. In essence, he cost us a 3rd and a 4th.
