Advocatus Diaboli: The defensive line (or lack thereof)

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:22 am

Well, my argument was about running teams in general. I agree with you that we should have quick-strike capabilities with our wide receivers, and that Clinton Portis is capable of turning any run into a touchdown, but that doesn't mean this offense can't help the defense.

I tried to find some time of possession statistics for both Joe Gibbs and Steve Spurrier, but struggled. What I did find was that in Super Bowl XXVI against the Bills, we controlled the ball for just under 34:00 despite having multiple quick strikes.

On the other hand, over a five game span in which Spurrier actually won two games, the Redskins were only able to hold the ball for 27:44.

http://www.nfl.com/matchups/last5/WAS-A ... atchup.htm

Obviously, these aren't the best stats. If someone could dig up Gibbs's career numbers of time of possession, as well as Spurrier's, that would be incredibly helpful.

However, I think you can still see my point. Even a team with a better passing game and a decent running game like the '91 Redskins can control the ball and therefore control the game. I can't even imagine what the numbers would be on a team that had John Riggins.

Compare that to an inept Spurrier team that more often than not goes 3 and out. Even if Clinton Portis averages 15 yards a carry, it will still take us five plays to get down the field (if we start on the 30), which is two plays more than Spurrier could produce.

Now, as for the idea that the offense could also suffer from fatigue if the time of possession swings too much in the Redskins direction: Any human being will get more tired and less effective the longer they are on the playing field. However, since offensive players rely more on strategy while defensive players rely more on reaction skills, the defensive players wear down more quickly, thus giving the offense an advantage.

For example, an offensive lineman's two advantages over a defensive lineman are that they know what the snap count is and they know where the play is going. As fatigue wears down the offensive and defensive lineman's strength, speed, etc., the offensive lineman still holds these two key advantages over the defensive lineman. The longer a defense stays on the field, the more effective offensive lineman become...

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:26 am

nice post SSIII...

Well stated.

West Coast Hog · Post by **West Coast Hog** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:25 pm

The defense is actually very good. Our problem last year was that we couldn't stop the run, and were usually 3 and out (or a turnover). Our secondary has actually gotten better and Griffin and Daniels will help stop the run. And we have a much better coach for defense. We won't be getting any shutouts, but we have Portis, Coles, & Gibbs, so we won't need shutouts.

RedskinsRule56 · Post by **RedskinsRule56** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:29 pm

I seriously doubt Noble will be 100% but he was average at best! We desperately need a run stopping DE! Why do you think we are going to use Lavar on thrid downs as a DE?? The rest of our defense should be great! We have one of the best Linebacking cores in the league! Our secondary should be pretty good with Smoot, Springs, Taylor and Bowen/Iffy! If we can stop the run?? We will be more then fine!

West Coast Hog · Post by **West Coast Hog** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:29 pm

The problem we will have is that we have to play Philly, Dallas & the Giants twice a year. These teams are all greatly improved, with Dallas and Philly both being 10+ game winners. So if we split games with Dallas and Philly, we have to go 8-4 elsewhere to win 10 games. Its a tough division.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:33 pm

RedskinsRule56 wrote:We desperately need a run stopping DE! Why do you think we are going to use Lavar on thrid downs as a DE??

I doubt if were using Lavar as a DE on third downs, that it's gonna be to stop the run... most likely it will be to rush the passer....

I think will be just fine on the D line.... we got some big strong bodies in here as opposed to last year.... and Williams will have them giving 110%

West Coast Hog · Post by **West Coast Hog** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:39 pm

Also remember, last year we were usually behind, which encourages the run from the opposition. Being ahead will force them to pass. Enter Sprayloot (that's Springs, Taylor and Smoot)

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:56 pm

What happens if Noble can't come back? In spite of the extreme optimism here, that is a distinct possibility.

Who is the other starting defensive tackle?

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:04 pm

Steve Spurrier III wrote:What happens if Noble can't come back? In spite of the extreme optimism here, that is a distinct possibility.

Who is the other starting defensive tackle?

Well if Noble can't come back... well we gotta stick another big body in there....Joe Salave'a, Jermaine Haley.... we have Wynn, Upshaw, Daniels at end.... I'm sure one of those big boys could move inside too..... If Noble doesn't come back... there's still time to find another body to put in there.... Are we able to get a Pro-Bowler in there? Probably not... but Williams has always been good at getting players to play at there full-potential...

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm

So basically, you don't really know. Haley or Salave'a are probably going to be a downgrade from last year, and Wynn, Upshaw and Daniels are really only solutions on passing downs. To me, this is a big problem and I hope we get someone to address it. We don't need a Pro Bowler, just someone who can hold down the fort.

As far as the time of possesion thing goes, I figured out that last season under Spurrier, the Redskins averaged 28:52 a game. Only five times did we hold the ball for over 30:00, and in those games we went 3-2, as opposed to 2-9 when we were under the 30:00 mark.

Our best game was in Week 13 against the Giants when we held the ball for 37:08 en route to a 20-7 win. Our worst game just two weeks later against hte Bears when we held the ball for only 22:06.

For lack of a better comparison, the New England Patriots controlled the ball for 31:27, never dipping below the 26:10 they registered Week 1 againsts the Bills.

Just in case you were wondering...

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:48 pm

Steve Spurrier III wrote:So basically, you don't really know. Haley or Salave'a are probably going to be a downgrade from last year, and Wynn, Upshaw and Daniels are really only solutions on passing downs. To me, this is a big problem and I hope we get someone to address it. We don't need a Pro Bowler, just someone who can hold down the fort.

Well.... really no buddy here knows anything, for sure that is.... It's all speculation...... but I do know that Salave and Haley.... have got to be an upgrade over Martin Chase and all the other bums we brought in here last year.... Why? One... Haley was here last year... Suffered some injuries and only played like 6 games.... but the team still kept him... must have seen something in him (probably the 12 solo tackles in 5 games, for a 325 lb guy)... and Salave was picked up this offseason..... Are we gonna doubt the coach who had the number 2 ranked Defense last year? If he's picking and keeping guys.... I'll trust him.... but do i know the outcome for sure.... no..... no one does....

And I believe Wynn and Daniels have played the interior line before so I'm sure there more than capable if they need too..... I don't think Williams is worried about it as much as we are.... thats because we seen the poor line play from no-namers here before and we don't want that again.... but I think if they were worried, they go out and get someone or they will get someone.......

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:18 pm

What happens if Noble can't come back? In spite of the extreme optimism here, that is a distinct possibility.

Who is the other starting defensive tackle?

I think we have 2 rookie DT's that could be used in extreme circumstances. Remeber, Joe said one of those late rookies is a POTENTIAL gem. We won't know till gameday as secretive as Joe is.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:12 pm

SOS, you've presented your case well. I'm not entirely sold, but I can certainly see it. Nice job. :rock:

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:17 pm

If Haley is better than those other guys, why didn't he start the games he was healthy for?

I agree Wynn and Daniels can be solutions on passing downs, but I'm worried about our run defense. Putting defensive ends in the middle isn't really going to help that.

Counting on undrafted free agents to shore up the line is an even bigger gamble than betting that Brandon Noble can come back 100%. I know that Gibbs has had luck with undrafted free agents, but that doesn't mean that we should count on one of the defensive lineman developing into a starter.

All this being said, I do have faith in Gregg Williams. I have no doubt defense will be much improved this season. I just think we still have one gaping hole on the line...

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:20 pm

Counting on undrafted free agents to shore up the line is an even bigger gamble than betting that Brandon Noble can come back 100%. I know that Gibbs has had luck with undrafted free agents, but that doesn't mean that we should count on one of the defensive lineman developing into a starter.

O no, not 100% faith, BUT something is better than nothing. We may luck out with Noble, but if we don't we have another shot with the Rookies. They may work, if not then we'll just have to rely on the schemes and work ethic Gregg is going to instill. That said I'm not too upset.

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:27 pm

Fair enough. I definetly hope you're right...

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:33 pm

Steve Spurrier III wrote:If Haley is better than those other guys, why didn't he start the games he was healthy for?

per redskins.com:

Haley played in six games, starting five, in the 2003 season.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:I agree Wynn and Daniels can be solutions on passing downs, but I'm worried about our run defense. Putting defensive ends in the middle isn't really going to help that.

Griffens Only 300 lbs.... Wynn's 292 and Daniels is 285... not as big.... but still good enough.... and It's easier to move from DE to DT than it is the other way around....

Hopefully we won't have to worry about these guys playing those spots anyhow if Haley, Griffen, Salave'a, and Noble do there job... which again... I think Williams will take care of that

Steve Spurrier III wrote:Counting on undrafted free agents to shore up the line is an even bigger gamble than betting that Brandon Noble can come back 100%. I know that Gibbs has had luck with undrafted free agents, but that doesn't mean that we should count on one of the defensive lineman developing into a starter.

what else can we do? there not a ton of talent waiting to be picked up... There's always gonna be a weakness on a team and are's is the D-line... anyone can see that.... but also if you look at it this way.... would you agree that the D-line has improved from last year? If you can see that then they'll atleast do better then they did last year.... and add williams knowledge to the mix and there's another improvement.....

Steve Spurrier III wrote:All this being said, I do have faith in Gregg Williams. I have no doubt defense will be much improved this season. I just think we still have one gaping hole on the line...

Good, i'm glad you feel that way... because you, and me and the rest of our brethren have no other choice

We just need to be that 12th man out there on game days.... gotta Bring Some Noise! :twisted:

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:45 pm

Well I obviously stand corrected about Haley. My apologies.

Weight notwithstanding, the fact remains that Wynn and Daniels are tweeners. Big defensive ends, small defensive tackles. When it comes to passing downs, you can move Arrington to end and Wynn or Daniels to tackle, which I think should produce an adequete pass rush.

However, that still does not fix the run defense. While the options are slim, we could still pick up a Marcus Bell for not a lot of money.

I would actually be in favor of signing Gildon and switching to a 3-4, but we are too far along in the process for that to happen this season...

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:45 pm

Fair enough. I definetly hope you're right...

Yea, me too :wink:

what else can we do? there not a ton of talent waiting to be picked up... There's always gonna be a weakness on a team and are's is the D-line... anyone can see that.... but also if you look at it this way.... would you agree that the D-line has improved from last year? If you can see that then they'll atleast do better then they did last year.... and add williams knowledge to the mix and there's another improvement.....

Yea, exactly. Gregg is our X-FACTOR and thats not easy to measure. We may have the best line in the league, its possible.....lol....hmmm...far-fetched, but possible.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:53 pm

Steve Spurrier III wrote:I would actually be in favor of signing Gildon and switching to a 3-4, but we are too far along in the process for that to happen this season...

He went to the Packers for a visit today I think and supposdly there interested in him being a DE also.... But I'm not sure how much he would cost.... probably more than we could afford...

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:32 pm

Once again...If Williams wants it, and Gibbs gives the okay, Danny Snyder will find a way.
I, personally, do not want Gildon.
Get me a pusher for the middle, a Sam Adams type.

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:41 pm

Sam Adams would definetly be ideal...

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:44 pm

Sam Adams would definetly be ideal...

I haven't been keeping up with Adams but if he's still any good he'll definately draw a doubleteam at times. That double will definately free up our average DE's. An average DE on 1-1 coverage will definately AT LEASE create pressure. They may not be a Strahan but they will cause the QB to step it up, unlike last year.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:47 pm

'course, Adams is now a Raider. What we need is a "Sam Adams" type. Wide body, good and heavy. Younger, perhaps. Plug up the middle all by himself, make the other DT an afterthought.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:50 pm

'course, Adams is now a Raider. What we need is a "Sam Adams" type. Wide body, good and heavy. Younger, perhaps. Plug up the middle all by himself, make the other DT an afterthought.

Jeez, I wasn't aware of that. Yea, a good big DT would help our pass rush also. Like I said before if he can draw a doubleteam, thus freeing up our DE's, they'll be able to create some pressure.