Ultimately, It IS the owners fault

fleetus · Post by **fleetus** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:26 am

The owner:

- hired Cerrato to run this franchise
- has NOT ever hired a GM to lend REAL football knowledge to the process
- hired Zorn
- continuously makes personnel decisions that have made this team the very definition of "over-priced" "over-hyped" and "big money".
- has continuously ignored players' intangibles in personnel decisions.
- has created a team NOT known for teamwork, blue collar work ethic, physical play, cohesiveness
- sues his own season ticket holders, even while selling those same tickets elsewhere (GREED)
- should be congratulated for creating one of the best money-making franchises (if not THE best) in the NFL without having a winning team

The bottom line is, we can blame Zorn, we can blame Campbell and anyone else we want, BUT, the team has not been in good shape during the majority of Snyder's ownership. He's taken us on a roller coaster ride of mostly poor decisions. All the while, he is still SO ARROGANT that he believes he is the ONLY owner in the NFL that DOES NOT NEED A GM! :shock:

Snyder is about making money and maintaining tight control over every facet of this team. Until he leaves the front office decisions to a REAL GM or leaves the team completely, I don't see this thing turning around. Football requires a lot of selfless play. You can't achieve success unless the organization, as a whole, rewards those selfless facets of the game, blocking, lineman, special teams etc. If the owner is all about marketing, media hype and the next "star player" acquisition, then the Skins will be forever mired in mediocrity.

Jake · Post by **Jake** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:45 am

Enough said.

roybus14 · Post by **roybus14** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:07 am

Daniel Snyder's only problem is not hiring a qualified GM and getting out of the way. I'm not a Dan Snyder apologist but I am sure that there are alot of qualified GM's out there right now that wish that they had an owner with a big wallet.

Vinnie is who he is and his biggest mistakes have been not addressing the OL with the three picks he used on Kelly, Thomas, and Davis, not overhauling the coaching staff on both sides of the ball and allowing this current staff to ruin a stud DE in Orakpo.

We didn't need Davis and we didn't need one of the other two. He could have drafted two OL and began the rebuilding process on the right side with those picks.

The talent that he has added to the team needs coaches that can put a thumb down on them. The talent is there and all they need is a coaching staff to get the max out of them.

The Orakpo experiment should never be. I hate to beat a dead horse on this, but this is Lavar all over again except the kid is trying to do what he is told but he is not a LB. If he was drafted by any of the other 31 teams, he'd be a DE. Blache is a GW disciple with this rigid, over complicated scheme that doesn't allow the talent that we do have to come through. Losing Sean Taylor was not Vinnie or Blache's fault but the result has us with two bangers playing safety that can't cover. Instead of changing the scheme to take advantage of "Lil Ray Lewis" London Fletcher and the hogs in the middle of the DL (Haynesworth and Griffin) with speed on the edges (Carter and Orakpo).

ATX_Skins · Post by **ATX_Skins** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:15 am

I'm reading a lot of good comments now that everyone has pretty much accepted we have a major problem on our hands.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:39 am

Ultimately it is the owners RESPONSIBILITY. Fault and responsibility are not the same thing. The blame game and finger pointing exercise is a great way to build a losing organization though. At least you have a plan.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:45 am

roybus14 wrote:Daniel Snyder's only problem is not hiring a qualified GM and getting out of the way. I'm not a Dan Snyder apologist but I am sure that there are alot of qualified GM's out there right now that wish that they had an owner with a big wallet.

Vinnie is who he is and his biggest mistakes have been not addressing the OL with the three picks he used on Kelly, Thomas, and Davis, not overhauling the coaching staff on both sides of the ball and allowing this current staff to ruin a stud DE in Orakpo.

We didn't need Davis and we didn't need one of the other two. He could have drafted two OL and began the rebuilding process on the right side with those picks.

The talent that he has added to the team needs coaches that can put a thumb down on them. The talent is there and all they need is a coaching staff to get the max out of them.

The Orakpo experiment should never be. I hate to beat a dead horse on this, but this is Lavar all over again except the kid is trying to do what he is told but he is not a LB. If he was drafted by any of the other 31 teams, he'd be a DE. Blache is a GW disciple with this rigid, over complicated scheme that doesn't allow the talent that we do have to come through. Losing Sean Taylor was not Vinnie or Blache's fault but the result has us with two bangers playing safety that can't cover. Instead of changing the scheme to take advantage of "Lil Ray Lewis" London Fletcher and the hogs in the middle of the DL (Haynesworth and Griffin) with speed on the edges (Carter and Orakpo).

Please not the "he spends" argument...Again why not bring in guy who are "playing" for a big contract???

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:46 am

Guys, guys PLEASE ...

... save yourselves a lot of aggravation and recycling of arguments made like ... FOREVER (at least that is how long this ownership looks to me).

Allow me to present you with a SMALL SAMPLE of the views expressed in this board over last couple of years. The list is NOT complete and some of the posters may have evolved and changed their opinions somehow since then. But I thought I would save you some time:

Snyder

http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31360
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31630
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28535
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27739
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27251
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26594
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26132
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19756
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26182
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26022
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25972
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22843
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22653

http://www.the-hogs.net/blog/?permalink=19828
http://www.the-hogs.net/blog/?permalink=19922

Cerrato

http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29787
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29733

Some of us were called NEGATIVE and PESSIMISTS. Some of us had our fanhood questioned. It was a lot more fun to drink the Kool Aid and prescribe more snake oil.

Let me say it ONCE more in this thread:

This team is NOT a disaster. This team has some GREAT players and coaches. The team may get a few wins for us and they are trying hard even if disillusion is beginning to be noticeable among fans and players.

This team simply has not been built to become a Champion. There are many issues relating to talent evaluation, planning and long term vision that have been sorely lacking at the top of the Team.

I suffer a lot of pain for players and fans who are put in a position to fight among themselves and one another when the season sooner or later goes to the gutter almost every time with one or two exceptions.

The Joe Gibbs 2.0 experiment brought back the team to have a SPIRIT and become COMPETITIVE again. I hope we can save what is left of it before we go back to the level Steve Spurrier left the team.

PLEASE stop asking for new coaches before we have somebody who knows about the NFL and how to make a Champion out of this miserable mess.

Get your priorities straight:

GM first, Head Coach second, QB third.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:48 am

roybus14 wrote:The Orakpo experiment should never be. I hate to beat a dead horse on this, but this is Lavar all over again except the kid is trying to do what he is told but he is not a LB

You're confusing having "LB" as their title with how they are actually using them. It's actually not the same thing. Lavar actually played LB in a 4-3. Orakpo is actually a standing DE titled LB in a 3-4.

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:57 am

Redskin in Canada wrote:Guys, guys PLEASE ...

Get your priorities straight:

GM first, Head Coach second, QB third.

COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

The bright side to this is that we can accomplish this very easily and the GM and coach will be able to rebuild their team any way they wish. They can bring in their QB (or draft, which is better) and assemble their staff.

In that way, it is a very attractive job --- mainly because there is some good talent here and a decent defense. BUT, they will have to answer to the WORST owner in all of sports.....

roybus14 · Post by **roybus14** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:58 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
roybus14 wrote:The Orakpo experiment should never be. I hate to beat a dead horse on this, but this is Lavar all over again except the kid is trying to do what he is told but he is not a LB

You're confusing having "LB" as their title with how they are actually using them. It's actually not the same thing. Lavar actually played LB in a 4-3. Orakpo is actually a standing DE titled LB in a 3-4.

Brian Orakpo played every, if not all his, downs at Texas as a DE. He's not doing that here. What is wrong with lining him up next to Albert on every down? There are teams in this league with DE's that are the same size as Brian that play every down. Jared Allen, Jevon Kearse, Osoi Umenyora (sp), etc.

Look at the depth chart. Orakpo is listed as a SLB and the front four is Daniels, Griff, Albert, and Carter. It's not a 3-4 it's a 4-3. It's Blache's arrogance that he can turn a DE into LB. Orakpo is a rookie and a good guy who's going to do what he's told to do and that's the shame in this. 31 other teams would be lining this kid up and letting him pin his ears back and get the QB....

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:06 am

roybus14 wrote:Brian Orakpo played every, if not all his, downs at Texas as a DE. Blah, blah blah.

This thread is not about individual players. It is abou a more fundamental issue. Please you may create a different thread if you wish to discuss Defense and/or Orakpo.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:08 am

roybus14 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
roybus14 wrote:The Orakpo experiment should never be. I hate to beat a dead horse on this, but this is Lavar all over again except the kid is trying to do what he is told but he is not a LB

You're confusing having "LB" as their title with how they are actually using them. It's actually not the same thing. Lavar actually played LB in a 4-3. Orakpo is actually a standing DE titled LB in a 3-4.

Brian Orakpo played every, if not all his, downs at Texas as a DE. He's not doing that here. What is wrong with lining him up next to Albert on every down? There are teams in this league with DE's that are the same size as Brian that play every down. Jared Allen, Jevon Kearse, Osoi Umenyora (sp), etc.

Look at the depth chart. Orakpo is listed as a SLB and the front four is Daniels, Griff, Albert, and Carter. It's not a 3-4 it's a 4-3. It's Blache's arrogance that he can turn a DE into LB. Orakpo is a rookie and a good guy who's going to do what he's told to do and that's the shame in this. 31 other teams would be lining this kid up and letting him pin his ears back and get the QB....

Asked, answered. You're looking at charts. They are using Orakpo primarily as a DE.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:17 am

As I mentioned before and I will continue to mention. The way to right this tailspin is to fire Cerrato this week. Bring in Holmgren or Shannahan like Miami brought in Parcells and let them evaluate for the remainder of the season. Holmgren would have the best insight on whether to blow it up or not. It would set the ship on the right course IMO and let me enjoy the rest of the season.

We need a GM

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:25 am

Interesting idea, chiefhog44. I like it.

I agree with this post and kind of feel bad for Zorn. The whole thing where he was brought in and Danny/Vinny set up his staff ahead of time, etc; It just smelled like a debacle. And sure enough...

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:39 am

Redskin in Canada wrote:
This team is NOT a disaster. This team has some GREAT players and coaches. The team may get a few wins for us and they are trying hard even if disillusion is beginning to be noticeable among fans and players.

Really, how many? Haynesworth, Samuals, Cool

ey and that is it. We have some more vey good players and some good one, but the Lions had more talent and it showed. With the exception of TE their and MAYBE RB they far out classed us on offense. And their D played better than ours.

Redskin in Canada wrote:
This team simply has not been built to become a Champion. There are many issues relating to talent evaluation, planning and long term vision that have been sorely lacking at the top of the Team.

I suffer a lot of pain for players and fans who are put in a position to fight among themselves and one another when the season sooner or later goes to the gutter almost every time with one or two exceptions.

The Joe Gibbs 2.0 experiment brought back the team to have a SPIRIT and become COMPETITIVE again. I hope we can save what is left of it before we go back to the level Steve Spurrier left the team.

PLEASE stop asking for new coaches before we have somebody who knows about the NFL and how to make a Champion out of this miserable mess.

Get your priorities straight:

GM first, Head Coach second, QB third.

That part I agree with 100% (by the way Zorn has already lost this locker room if he hadn't last year)

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:54 am

skinsfan#33 wrote:Really, how many? Haynesworth, Samuals, ey and that is it. We have some more vey good players and some good one, but the Lions had more talent and it showed. With the exception of TE their and MAYBE RB they far out classed us on offense. And their D played better than ours.

Anger and frustration are getting the better of you.

There are several other VERY GOOD players other than those you mention above. I am a great fan of London Fletcher and Rocky Mc has been very good for us, for example ... Some are not in the right system. Some have been misused. Others are impacted negatively by the poor play of others.

Please do not let the bad news to underestimate the caliber of some players in this team. If anything, I would argue that the failure of this group of players stems from two reasons:

1. Lack of depth

2. Big holes at key positions.

The fundamental problem is about who puts together the pieces. Look at the CAUSE of the problem and not only to the EFFECT on the field. The responsibility goes to the top for the cuase of the problem.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:12 am

Redskin in Canada wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Really, how many? Haynesworth, Samuals, ey and that is it. We have some more vey good players and some good one, but the Lions had more talent and it showed. With the exception of TE their and MAYBE RB they far out classed us on offense. And their D played better than ours.
Anger and frustration are getting the better of you.

There are several other VERY GOOD players other than those you mention above. I am a great fan of London Fletcher and Rocky Mc has been very good for us, for example ... Some are not in the right system. Some have been misused. Others are impacted negatively by the poor play of others.

Please do not let the bad news to underestimate the caliber of some players in this team. If anything, I would argue that the failure of this group of players stems from two reasons:

1. Lack of depth

2. Big holes at key positions.

The fundamental problem is about who puts together the pieces. Look at the CAUSE of the problem and not only to the EFFECT on the field. The responsibility goes to the top for the cuase of the problem.

RiC,
The player I listed were the only great players on the team (and frankly Samuals is a stretch now). I said they have some very good and good plaers, but just didn't list them. Fletcher falls into that Very good category now, since he can no longer cover. Rocky just barely makes good, I would actually put him in the average category, which is where CP falls now.
Cp was great at one time, but hasn't been for the last two years. Moss, Albrite and Horton are very Good. ARE, Rogers, Landry, Smoot, Dockery, Raybach and the punter are good. The rest are average or way below average.

roybus14 · Post by **roybus14** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:26 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
roybus14 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
roybus14 wrote:The Orakpo experiment should never be. I hate to beat a dead horse on this, but this is Lavar all over again except the kid is trying to do what he is told but he is not a LB

You're confusing having "LB" as their title with how they are actually using them. It's actually not the same thing. Lavar actually played LB in a 4-3. Orakpo is actually a standing DE titled LB in a 3-4.

Brian Orakpo played every, if not all his, downs at Texas as a DE. He's not doing that here. What is wrong with lining him up next to Albert on every down? There are teams in this league with DE's that are the same size as Brian that play every down. Jared Allen, Jevon Kearse, Osoi Umenyora (sp), etc.

Look at the depth chart. Orakpo is listed as a SLB and the front four is Daniels, Griff, Albert, and Carter. It's not a 3-4 it's a 4-3. It's Blache's arrogance that he can turn a DE into LB. Orakpo is a rookie and a good guy who's going to do what he's told to do and that's the shame in this. 31 other teams would be lining this kid up and letting him pin his ears back and get the QB....

Asked, answered. You're looking at charts. They are using Orakpo primarily as a DE.

That is what is going on in the games as well. They only use Orakpo as DE or DT on 3rd and longs. Make the kid a full-time DE and build around that line. Griff and Albert have enough to clog the middle and Carter and Orakpo on the edges. We can debate this back and forth all day but this kid should be on knuckles every play he plays. That's what he does....

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:34 am

riggofan wrote:Interesting idea, chiefhog44. I like it.

I agree with this post and kind of feel bad for Zorn. The whole thing where he was brought in and Danny/Vinny set up his staff ahead of time, etc; It just smelled like a debacle. And sure enough...

I mean honestly. What a better way to keep the fans still going to the games, still cheering in the stands, still buying merchandise. I think I would buy the remaining home game package if that happened (realistically not, I live in Chicago and have two kids). I would cheer all game, even if they didn't score another TD all season, because in my heart, I would know that they are on the RIGHT path

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:59 am

roybus14 wrote:That is what is going on in the games as well. They only use Orakpo as DE or DT on 3rd and longs. Make the kid a full-time DE and build around that line. Griff and Albert have enough to clog the middle and Carter and Orakpo on the edges. We can debate this back and forth all day but this kid should be on knuckles every play he plays. That's what he does....

We're only 3 games into his career, give the kid a break. With our D line depth it gives him a chance to keep working into more situations and more packages while keeping everyone fresher. If Joey G were here in his hey day the kid wouldn't be playing at all.

portis26 · Post by **portis26** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:06 pm

I would say OWNER first, GM second, Head Coach third, DC fourth, QB fifth.

fleetus · Post by **fleetus** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:41 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:Guys, guys PLEASE ...

... save yourselves a lot of aggravation and recycling of arguments made like ... FOREVER (at least that is how long this ownership looks to me).

It probably took a fair amount of work for you to look up all those threads. And I get what you are saying, but most of us live in the "today" of the Redskins. Most of us have supported Snyder/Cerrato up to a point in the past. The only difference is when each of us, individually, reaches the breaking point. Therefore, we end up arguing this case over and over as fans finally lose faith.

Redskin in Canada wrote:This team simply has not been built to become a Champion. There are many issues relating to talent evaluation, planning and long term vision that have been sorely lacking at the top of the Team.

I agree. And the #1 reason these problems exist? Snyder's micro-management despite the fact that he knows less about football than some of us do. Don't disregard him as simply an owner with deep pockets. He is in Cerrato's ear about every move, I am convinced.

Redskin in Canada wrote:I suffer a lot of pain for players and fans who are put in a position to fight among themselves and one another when the season sooner or later goes to the gutter almost every time with one or two exceptions.

Fans, yes. Players, not so sure. Players are hired, many for million$. If the Cowboys offered them a million more, most of them would leave tomorrow. Sure, they play hard while they are here, but it is much like politicians. They come here for 4 years or so, then move on, leaving us regular Joe citizens to deal with the Redskins, for better or worse, for a lifetime. It is us, the fans who care the most. And it us the fans who pay the bills. So, it is us, the fans who I feel the pain and suffering for.

fleetus · Post by **fleetus** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:55 pm

There are a lot of posts delving back into the blame game of player talent, position depth, coaching etc. I'll say it again, all of those things have ONE thing in common this year and every for the past 10 seasons. SNYDER.

A couple of years ago, I defended Snyder and Cerrato on this forum. I said, yes they made lots of mistakes early in their careers, but there were signs that they recognized their limitations and mistakes. Hiring Gibbs. Reigning in the free agent spending sprees. More recently, they kept all of their draft picks in 2008. But Gibbs is gone. Snyder is back to chasing free agents like Charlie Sheen chases skirts. He's back to spawning all sorts of hype, bad and good, like the Cutler story, the D. Hall signing to a huge contract.
He may get lucky once in a while, but overall, Snyder is incapable of making good solid football decisions. His decisions are about how much hype a player can generate for the Redskins brand name. When you build a team full of hype players, you lack substance players. Even when you have substance players, the tone has been set from the top. "It doesn't really matter, because this owner doesn't reward substance." Why risk your neck on a block when the owner is going to release you to chase after then next big free agent splash?

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:07 pm

fleetus wrote:... And I get what you are saying, but most of us live in the "today" of the Redskins. Most of us have supported Snyder/Cerrato up to a point in the past. The only difference is when each of us, individually, reaches the breaking point. Therefore, we end up arguing this case over and over as fans finally lose faith.

Welcome to join the Rebelion against the Evil Empire. It took you a while but an honest fan cannot reach a different conclusion.

Peace brother.

HTTR

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:14 pm

fleetus wrote: He is in Cerrato's ear about every move, I am convinced.

Completely a WAG, nothing more. I LOVE :roll:

how all of us fans KNOW how involved the Danny is yet we have nothing to base it on!

The Danny just needs to hire a real GM.