Snyder, Zorn and the WCO

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:57 am

In Atlanta they have a new administration that's installed a new system and has had some success.

The same can be said for Baltimore, New York (Jets) and Miami. Those teams had some changes pretty recently and have been showing significant progress.

The Redskins bungled the hiring of a new coach. That much is crystal clear. It was laughable that they hired an OC before they hired the Head Coach and everyone knew it. We were supposed to get Jim Fassel and had to settle for someone who had never been a head coach before at any level. Worse yet, the only OC experience he's ever had was over 15 years ago when he was in charge of running and offense for a second rate school. The Aggies went 10-13 with Zorn as the offensive coordinator.

He is simply not the guy, perhaps he would have made a good OC under the guidance of an intelligent coach... but he's over matched and it seems completely obvious to me that he's never going to be the right guy for the job.

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:32 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:In Atlanta they have a new administration that's installed a new system and has had some success.

The same can be said for Baltimore, New York (Jets) and Miami. Those teams had some changes pretty recently and have been showing significant progress.

The Redskins bungled the hiring of a new coach. That much is crystal clear. It was laughable that they hired an OC before they hired the Head Coach and everyone knew it. We were supposed to get Jim Fassel and had to settle for someone who had never been a head coach before at any level. Worse yet, the only OC experience he's ever had was over 15 years ago when he was in charge of running and offense for a second rate school. The Aggies went 10-13 with Zorn as the offensive coordinator.

He is simply not the guy, perhaps he would have made a good OC under the guidance of an intelligent coach... but he's over matched and it seems completely obvious to me that he's never going to be the right guy for the job.

Good thing you weren't in charge when the Niners had Bill Walsh (8-24 over his first two seasons), or the Steelers had Chuck Noll (6-24 over his two first seasons). Jim Zorn already has more wins in 18 games than either of those two managed in 32+ games each.

After two seasons, I'm sure there were a lot of fans thinking that those two clearly weren't "the guy" for their respective jobs. Good thing that their respective front offices had patience, and ignored the fans.

Patience. Overall, fans just don't have it.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:05 pm

Look guys, I can play this game all day long.

Bill Walsh was 8-24 in his first two seasons like you said, however:

He had a young QB named Joe Montana on the bench who began to show signs mid-season two of becoming a good player in the league. He also dramatically improved from one year to the next and showed consistent vision and leadership. He actually had a plan in place! (Not to mention an impressive history in pro football up to that point.)

Chuck Noll, on the same token had vision and leadership... AND the number one overall pick in his second season. He used that pick on Terry Bradshaw. He had a plan in place and the team got better and better as time went on.

What is Jim Zorn's plan? Right now it's looking like he whiffed badly in the 2008 draft and he hasn't made any big push for his own personnel. He's just sending in plays to a confederation of players, not a team.

A real coach needs to build a team, have a cohesive system in place and execute it. That's what Marty Schottenheimer tried to do here, that's what recent successful coaches like Bill Belichick, Sean Payton, Rex Ryan, John Harbaugh and Tony Sparano (w/ the Tuna) have done.

Where is Zorn's system? Is there any evidence he's remotely qualified to lead a professional football team? Like I said, he was a OC for two years at a second rate school 15 years ago and he's been a QB coach or "offensive assistant" (i.e. waterboy) everywhere else.

You realize the only time he ever called plays was during a 10-13 run at Utah Freaking State? It's a joke anyone thinks he can lead this team back to their glory days.

Chuck Noll was the right hand man to Don Shula before taking over the Steelers and Bill Walsh was trained by Al Davis (when he was sane and a visionary) and he was the right hand man of Paul Brown in Cincinnati. Zorn was the QB coach for a good NFL team under Mike Holmgren and OC Gil Haskell... not exactly the same history of success.

I mean, you can disagree if you think Zorn is the guy, but it's a very weak argument to say "look at these two flimsy examples over the course of the long history of the NFL."

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:24 pm

Jim Zorn is stuck trying to transition from one offense to one that's very, very different. I can't think of a bigger difference in offense between Joe Gibbs's/Saunders's power offense and the WCO; they use completely different players.

It's premature to say he can't do it. It's also silly to point at Montana and Bradshaw, because at the time that both coaches were struggling, no one knew that the players were any good.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:35 pm

No one knew a 3rd round QB might develop or that THE FIRST PICK OVERALL might be a good QB someday?

Talk about silly.

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:40 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:No one knew a 3rd round QB might develop or that THE FIRST PICK OVERALL might be a good QB someday?

Talk about silly.

If anyone knew Montana was going to be a HoF QB, he wouldn't have gone in the 3rd round, would he?

Also, with respect to Bradshaw, for the first part of his career he was seen as basically a bust. His first four years in the league, he had 41 TDs and 75 INTs.

You don't know your NFL history very well, do you?

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:53 pm

So what you're saying is we should just keep Zorn and Campbell around and hope they figure something out in a few more seasons?

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:55 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:So what you're saying is we should just keep Zorn and Campbell around and hope they figure something out in a few more seasons?

What about waiting until the end of this one before you judge Zorn to be an utter disaster?

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:07 pm

PulpExposure wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:So what you're saying is we should just keep Zorn and Campbell around and hope they figure something out in a few more seasons?

What about waiting until the end of this one before you judge Zorn to be an utter disaster?

Yeah...about this....whomever wrote it was an idiot... :wink:

mweb08 · Post by **mweb08** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:30 pm

Zorn is awful, his play-calling is terrible and he makes dumb decisions like accept a penalty when the alternative was 4th down and a 50 yard field goal. Just atrocious.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:58 pm

I don't want to give you the wrong idea Pulp... I love the Redskins, but they have been mismanaged into the ground for 17 years now.

Did you know in the last 17 years the Redskins have won 10 games in only two seasons... and that those seasons were spread apart by 6 years? Since 1991 we're 122-152! And in that same span we've had 8 coaching changes?

It's time the Redskins actually make a plan and commit to it. My idea is for us to make a strong, strong push at either Mike Shannahan or Mike Holmgren to be the new GM. Both of those guys have loads of experience in evaluating talent... particularly Holmgren.

Next step is to let that GM select a coach they believe they can work well with and who has good leadership ability. For Shannahan that coach might be his son Kyle (a little on the young side) or Gary Kubiak if he's let go. For Holmgren he might have Steve Mariucci or Jon Gruden. Just someone with leadership and the ability to work with the GM in finding the proper talent for a cohesive system.

IMO there's just no way a plan like that could fail. When Joe Gibbs came back to Washington he had lost the touch for the game after 12 seasons, things had changed too much. Most of his contacts had retired!

Getting guys who have been in the game a long time and who are still involved in football and giving them the power to actually build a team their way would make the Redskins elite contenders in 2 seasons max.

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:01 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:I don't want to give you the wrong idea Pulp... I love the Redskins, but they have been mismanaged into the ground for 17 years now.

Did you know in the last 17 years the Redskins have won 10 games in only two seasons... and that those seasons were spread apart by 6 years? Since 1991 we're 122-152! And in that same span we've had 8 coaching changes?

It's time the Redskins actually make a plan and commit to it. My idea is for us to make a strong, strong push at either Mike Shannahan or Mike Holmgren to be the new GM. Both of those guys have loads of experience in evaluating talent... particularly Holmgren.

Next step is to let that GM select a coach they believe they can work well with and who has good leadership ability. For Shannahan that coach might be his son Kyle (a little on the young side) or Gary Kubiak if he's let go. For Holmgren he might have Steve Mariucci or Jon Gruden. Just someone with leadership and the ability to work with the GM in finding the proper talent for a cohesive system.

IMO there's just no way a plan like that could fail. When Joe Gibbs came back to Washington he had lost the touch for the game after 12 seasons, things had changed too much. Most of his contacts had retired!

Getting guys who have been in the game a long time and who are still involved in football and giving them the power to actually build a team their way would make the Redskins elite contenders in 2 seasons max.

No, we certainly need a rebuild. And yes, I remember the Norv Turner years all too well. I'm just not sure that this fanbase will tolerate a rebuilding process. It may take 2 years, or it may take more, since our offensive line is sorely deficient. Takes awhile to rebuild the o-line usually.

BeeGee · Post by **BeeGee** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:05 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:It's time the Redskins actually make a plan and commit to it.

Yeh, but is Snyder even capable of doing this? And especially during a time in which the NFL head coach is given a little more than overnight to meet expectations. I agree with the proposed plan, but I question whether or not Snyder is even capable of it.

GoSkins · Post by **GoSkins** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

There is only one way the Skins will improve. The fans must boycott. Snyder will feel the pinch and be forced to bring in professional talent at the TOP of the organization. I'm afraid this will take a while but I hope I'm wrong.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:25 pm

PulpExposure wrote:No, we certainly need a rebuild. And yes, I remember the Norv Turner years all too well. I'm just not sure that this fanbase will tolerate a rebuilding process. It may take 2 years, or it may take more, since our offensive line is sorely deficient. Takes awhile to rebuild the o-line usually.

God, I actually remember Norv Turner's tenure as one of the bright (maybe that's not the right word) spots of the last 17 years!

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:25 pm

PulpExposure wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:So what you're saying is we should just keep Zorn and Campbell around and hope they figure something out in a few more seasons?

What about waiting until the end of this one before you judge Zorn to be an utter disaster?

Yeah...about this....whomever wrote it was an idiot...

No he was/is not. He is a GREAT fan who had high hopes and saw what was rightfully positive.

He just failed to acknowledge that some of the negatives balanced the positives to make it a difficult season. That's all. We will have better weeks to come and we will all feel better. I promise you that. Those positives are not gone.

HTTR

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:45 pm

I'm informing everyone right now. Every post I make from here until I get my own riggins avator will contain the following...

We need a GM

SKINFAN · Post by **SKINFAN** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:49 pm

chiefhog44 wrote:I'm informing everyone right now. Every post I make from here until I get my own riggins avator will contain the following...

We need a GM

yo Chief, what's the weather like over there?

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:19 pm

SKINFAN wrote:
chiefhog44 wrote:I'm informing everyone right now. Every post I make from here until I get my own riggins avator will contain the following...

We need a GM

yo Chief, what's the weather like over there?

Beautiful day today, but a storm just came rolling in just now.

We need a GM, and it'll be sunny again.