Skins/Rams Post Game Discussion

[SkinsFreak]

Zorn's playcalling in the red zone is what killed this offense.

Completely agree.

We didn't have a play bigger than 25 yards. The dinking and dunking needs to go. Not sure if this is a result of the play calling or JC, but it needs to end.

I thought you had all this experience and were some sort of expert? This post clearly shows a complete lack of knowledge about the offensive system. First of all, it's not dinking and dunking... that's what MB04 did years ago with passes behind the line of scrimmage and others that didn't go beyond 4 yards. The WCO encompasses an intermediate passing game that relies on receivers making yards after the catch, much like ARE did last week with his 7 catches for 98 yards. How many passes did JC throw short of 5 yards? Few... if any. They did in fact take some shots downfield, it's just that JC struggles with accuracy on the long passes.

No, I have more experience than you. And I guess you are still stuck on that. And do you really think that I don't understand the WCO? The fact is that the skins "WCO offense" --- is NOT a pure WCO, so maybe you should understand that......the skins had 3 passes for over 20 yards today --- only ONE of which had YAC attached to it --- one by Betts. It was atrocious. And yes, JC did have issues with his accuracy on longer throws. But hey, if you are happy with this "WCO Offense" be my guest --- it sounds like you are. I am not, I am not happy with the dinking and dunking going on with this offense and their point production. Call it what you want, but I take it for what it is.

I understand that you are going to take any shot you can at me from now on because I called you out, but you have to NOT put words in my mouth in an attempt to do so --- which you did in this post. This offense is not a pure WCO offense like the ones seen in SF under Walsh.

You have more experience than me? At what, hyperbole? You don't even have the first damn clue who you are talking to, so that just shows how moronic that comment is.

I never said it was a "pure" WCO. I never said you said that either, so don't come off playing the "don't put words in my mouth" game. Every WCO utilizes an intermediate passing game, regardless of the variations or modifications. There are many teams in the league that employ the WCO and all of them use intermediate game that looks for receivers to get YAC. Again, if you think it's dinks and dunks, you're clearly establishing you know very little about a WCO or are just shortsighted. ARE had 7 catches for 98 yards last week. ey had 7 catches for 83 yards this week. You don't get those kinds of numbers with dinks and dunks and no yards after the catch.

[RayNAustin]

stop running the offense like you're playing a pick up game with 40 year old hippies

Lay off the 40-year old hippies, Ray.

HEy, I'm a 51 year old hippy myself

[SkinsFreak]

stop running the offense like you're playing a pick up game with 40 year old hippies

Lay off the 40-year old hippies, Ray.

HEy, I'm a 51 year old hippy myself

Well... that does help explain a few things.

I'm still waiting for the answer to my challenge though. I asked you about it being strange that not one paid professional or expert thinks Collins is the better QB or that JC should be benched. I've asked you many times to back-up your assertions with any quote, from any paid professional or expert, who says Collins is the better QB.

Where is it Ray? Show us. Back up your hyperbole. And I'm not even talking about anyone from inside the Skins organization. There are many, many people from independent and unbiased sources that have watched JC and Collins compete and throw, side by side, in camp and all offseason. Yet not one has come out and said that Collins looks to be the better QB. NOT ONE! If you've got it, show us. Show us ANYTHING... FROM ANYONE... who says Collins is the better option and better QB.

And all these comments about me or others being "in love with Campbell" is just stupid and childish. No one is in love with him and no one is anointing him. We KNOW he's average and struggles at times. Most just easily recognize that he's our best option right now.

[riggofan]

Hey just wondering if anybody else listened to the game on the radio? You know Sam asks Sonny what play is coming up before each one is run. I guarantee you that Sonny can call about 85% of what's coming up. What play is about to be run. Who its going to. What side. Its freaking CRAZY.

The only plays he doesn't get right are the gadgets or like broken pass plays to Fred Davis.

I have no idea if Zorn's play calling is good or not. But either Sonny Jurgensen is a psychic or Zorn is predictable.

[stacylee12]

28-7 would have been better. I get it. But come on. Were y'all the guys booing at the stadium today?

I am an NFL junky. I watch on average 4 NFL games per week. I watch NFL Network all year long... I am not trying to pretend any expertise but maybe that gives me some perspective.

I've learned, we can't write the script. I've learned every team and player and coach makes mistakes. And it truly is any given Sunday.

Each season is a journey and you take your wins and you learn your lessons and you improve your team. I saw this week as an improvement honestly and that is what good teams do.

I'm looking forward to next week's game. I'll be on the edge of my seat and rooting for my Skins again! !

[Champsturf]

I mean, what a horrible mess the franchise is in right now, and I don't see it getting any better. It would just be a miracle for a young coach to take control next season and draft a QB high (I like Colt McCoy) so we can hope for some Flacco or Ryan like success... but that's all we have... hope. There's no evidence the Redskins will do any of that.

Instead the evidence suggests that Snyder will gas up Redskins One and meet with Cowher or Shannahan offering millions and millions for another spectacular failure.

You and I share the same viewpoint. Lately the only reason I pay attention is to see if the fans will grow the stones necessary to boycott the team to hurt Snyder's bottom line.

I'm doing my share. I cancelled my Sunday Ticket...the first time in YEARS. I can't afford wasting that kind of money watching a crappy team. I'll just wait unit they're televisied nationally.

[Champsturf]

How could you possibly say he played "great"? We did not even score a touchdown!!

Jason Campbell played well enough to score 9 points... against a team that's picked second overall for the last two years. The Redskins offense was pathetic today... but fortunately (or unfortunately depending on who you want next April) for us the Rams offense was worse.

Campbell didn't drop an on the money TD pass. Campbell didn't fumble away on another drive. Campbell wasn't calling those terrible plays. The play wasn't "great", but the list of problems today didn't include him.

After two games, I think they should look at running the shotgun as their primary formation. Campbell is much better at it, and good teams play to their players strengths.

If shotgun is what you want, we should've kept either Daniel or rush Colt back from the IR.

[Deadskins]

That roughing the passer call on the fumble at the beginning of the game was very questionable.

No it wasn't. Orakpo threw Bulger to the ground like two full seconds after he had thrown the ball. There were some seriously bad calls today, but that wasn't one of them. I was upset that they picked up the flag on the ARE interference in the end-zone. Maybe JC had to throw the ball away because ARE was being held. At the very least it was defensive holding, or illegal contact. To pick up the flag completely was ludicrous.

Also on the Moss fumble that was replayed, the refs missed a blatant face-mask, that should have nullified the turnover. It was driving me crazy watching the replay so many times. I hope the ref who had to overturn the call realized how badly they blew that one.

And how about the defensive holding on the Rams' running play? I still can't figure that one out.

[Champsturf]

Dan Snyder came in and meddled. He screwed with a star like Johnson (someone who won a Superbowl later and had at least 3 more high quality years left) and brought in a malcontent like Jeff George.

Did we watch the same Brad Johnson in 2000? The one whose arm was totally dead, and threw for 11 TDs and 15 INTs? While George was a laughable addition, it was clear that Johnson wasn't the same QB he was in DC the year before, and his career trended downwards (aside from 2002) after that.

And yes, I know he had a good year for Tampa in 2002, but he also played in the perfect offense for him; a short passing WCO. That's not what the Redskins have ever had.

So, I'm curious; what "3 more high quality years" were you referring to? Because if you look at his career, it looks like 1 quality year (2002), and a variety of mediocre years until he became a backup QB.

2000: 11 TDs, 15 INTs.
2001: 13 TDs, 11 INTs.
2002: Agreed, quality year
2003: 26 TDs, 21 INTs.
2004: Backup after this point, except in 2006 when he had an astounding high quality year (9 TDs and 15 INTs) for Minn.

As far as I'm concerned, Brad Johnson got hosed. The dude led his team to the playoffs and they bring in a strong armed malcontent? He was looking over his shoulder at that point.

[Champsturf]

As for worse owners than Dan Snyder. . .talk about hyperbole. I guess the cities of Oakland, Detroit, and Dallas must not exist. Not to mention a truck-load of owners from the past.

Let's see here...Oakland is a mess, but 2-0. Detroit has scored more on offense than the Skins. Dallas is always a joke with JJ in charge, but they too score more than the Skins. The team with the most points win, right?

[Irn-Bru]

Let's see here...Oakland is a mess, but 2-0.

They are 1-1. But even though you got that simple fact wrong, I concede the argument. Brilliant point!

Detroit has scored more on offense than the Skins.

Again! How could I have missed this! You are right! Detroit has a MUCH better FO than the Redskins. What was I thinking!!

Dallas is always a joke with JJ in charge, but they too score more than the Skins. The team with the most points win, right?

Again! I concede entirely to your far superior points. I will never again try to debate the merits of a front office, when I am so clearly unprepared for discussion on this point. I can only thank you for so thoroughly destroying my remarks, that I might learn from my egregious mistakes.

[Deadskins]

Let's see here...Oakland is a mess, but 2-0.

They are 1-1. But even though you got that simple fact wrong, I concede the argument. Brilliant point!

Detroit has scored more on offense than the Skins.

Again! How could I have missed this! You are right! Detroit has a MUCH better FO than the Redskins. What was I thinking!!

Dallas is always a joke with JJ in charge, but they too score more than the Skins. The team with the most points win, right?

Again! I concede entirely to your far superior points. I will never again try to debate the merits of a front office, when I am so clearly unprepared for discussion on this point. I can only thank you for so thoroughly destroying my remarks, that I might learn from my egregious mistakes.

[amadkins]

I'm doing my share. I cancelled my Sunday Ticket...the first time in YEARS. I can't afford wasting that kind of money watching a crappy team. I'll just wait unit they're televisied nationally.

I like it. Lately, I've even found myself siding with the Native American groups in the lawsuits over the name just so I can see Snyder fail. Snyder sucks.

[crazyhorse1]

Well, having some time to reflect (drink more) I have come to the realization that winning, no matter how ugly, feels better than losing. So, yeah (I guess). What I did learn today though was that 1) Zorn, not JC is the problem and 2) to walk around Philly in my LL30 jersey would be more fun if we had scored TD.

Doctor Ray says, drink some more, and reflect some more. Zorn was no where around in 2007.

Pay no attention to the prolific offensive production between the 20's. Most of them are 5 yard passes with a lot of YAC. Inside the 30, Campbell is a deer in headlights, and Zorn .... ole Zorny is trying to pull rabbits out of hats.

Take the freaking sunglasses off ... bench Campbell, and stop running the offense like you're playing a pick up game with 40 year old hippies

Then ... maybe this team can stop embarrassing themselves, the city, and the fans across the nation.

Total nonsense. Campbell was throwing the ball extremely well to mid range and the the yac was insignificant. What game were you watching. Anyone who blames the red zone failures on anyone but Zorn must have been zonked by the time the game started.

[MDSKINSFAN]

Total nonsense. Campbell was throwing the ball extremely well to mid range and the the yac was insignificant. What game were you watching. Anyone who blames the red zone failures on anyone but Zorn must have been zonked by the time the game started.

Thank you. It wasn't poor execution it was poor play calling.

[RedskinsFreak]

Again! How could I have missed this! You are right! Detroit has a MUCH better FO than the Redskins. What was I thinking!!

You can't know this. No one can. Detroit's one step of the Redskins in that they've already jettisoned their bad FO.

We, on the other hand, are resigned to waiting for a certain someone's EKG to flatline.

[crazyhorse1]

How could you possibly say he played "great"? We did not even score a touchdown!!

Jason Campbell played well enough to score 9 points... against a team that's picked second overall for the last two years. The Redskins offense was pathetic today... but fortunately (or unfortunately depending on who you want next April) for us the Rams offense was worse.

Campbell didn't drop an on the money TD pass. Campbell didn't fumble away on another drive. Campbell wasn't calling those terrible plays. The play wasn't "great", but the list of problems today didn't include him.

After two games, I think they should look at running the shotgun as their primary formation. Campbell is much better at it, and good teams play to their players strengths.

I think we would be better served running a no-huddle offense than running shotgun full-time. Zorn's play calling might even get a boost because teams wouldn't have a chance to anticipate what he is going to do. Campbell seems to play better when he has some urgency as well.

My only fear with the no huddle is wearing out our defense. If the no-huddle doesn't score, it gives the other team a lot of possessions.

LMAO like we weren't going 3 and out quickly anyway...

The fact is you're right, Chris; we weren't going three and out quickly. In fact, the game was dominated by our ball control and long drives. I have never seen a game so badly reported on by this site. Never. Campbell was innocent of any and all charges today, except that he overthrew a few long passes and threw out of bounds a couple of times. I hate to defend the guy, but criticism thrown his way today is utterly innocent of observation and sense.

[crazyhorse1]

That roughing the passer call on the fumble at the beginning of the game was very questionable.

No it wasn't. Orakpo threw Bulger to the ground like two full seconds after he had thrown the ball. There were some seriously bad calls today, but that wasn't one of them. I was upset that they picked up the flag on the ARE interference in the end-zone. Maybe JC had to throw the ball away because ARE was being held. At the very least it was defensive holding, or illegal contact. To pick up the flag completely was ludicrous.

Also on the Moss fumble that was replayed, the refs missed a blatant face-mask, that should have nullified the turnover. It was driving me crazy watching the replay so many times. I hope the ref who had to overturn the call realized how badly they blew that one.

And how about the defensive holding on the Rams' running play? I still can't figure that one out.

I saw the face mask too and was outraged they missed it.

[ChocolateMilk]

Can't really ask for a better outing from out team. Can't say the same about our coach though. That play-calling was horrible. What was he thinking doing a runningback pass on 3rd down?? Come on. I could drink a handle of Vodka and call a better game than that man.

[El Mexican]

Wow.

Can a victory taste like defeat? Because after watching the game today, that's almost the way I'm feeling.

Pathetic, absurd, ridiculous playcalling. Dinks and dunks. No O-line to speak of, no big plays on Offense that were not gained by YAC against one of the worst teams in the NFL.

We got really lucky today on that sack by the Rams that was nearly a safety. At that moment it would have been a killer.

Most football games are won by big plays on Offense or Defense and we have a dearth of both. No killer instinct at all. We just let the Rams-the Rams!-hang for most of the game. We are not going to win many games like that, even if our D is better than average.

Next week, against Detroit, I smell something really bad about to happen.

This team is about to implode and is no competition against their divisional foes.

[RayNAustin]

stop running the offense like you're playing a pick up game with 40 year old hippies

Lay off the 40-year old hippies, Ray.

HEy, I'm a 51 year old hippy myself

Well... that does help explain a few things.

I'm still waiting for the answer to my challenge though. I asked you about it being strange that not one paid professional or expert thinks Collins is the better QB or that JC should be benched. I've asked you many times to back-up your assertions with any quote, from any paid professional or expert, who says Collins is the better QB.

Where is it Ray? Show us. Back up your hyperbole. And I'm not even talking about anyone from inside the Skins organization. There are many, many people from independent and unbiased sources that have watched JC and Collins compete and throw, side by side, in camp and all offseason. Yet not one has come out and said that Collins looks to be the better QB. NOT ONE! If you've got it, show us. Show us ANYTHING... FROM ANYONE... who says Collins is the better option and better QB.

And all these comments about me or others being "in love with Campbell" is just stupid and childish. No one is in love with him and no one is anointing him. We KNOW he's average and struggles at times. Most just easily recognize that he's our best option right now.

Look, YOU HAVE posted many times in the past about how good you thought Campbell was, and not that he was just the best option. You can back track now, and change your view ... as well you should. But like it or not, you can't change history and you can't now claim that nobody ever said or believed he was in the "Franchise QB" class.

And I don't take instructions from you or anyone else. You are the one who places so much value on so-called experts opinions, not me. I DON'T CARE what your experts think. I know what my eyes see, and I don't need someone else to tell me what I've already witnessed. The only real evidence is that when the opportunity presented itself, Collins played circles around Campbell. That's a fact, regardless of how strongly you or anyone else denies it.

I've heard time and again about how ZORN is one of these so-called experts who should obviously know which QB is a better. Guess what? I think Zorn is as clueless of a coach as I've ever seen coaching a Redskin team, and don't consider His Guru-ness to be so insightful. OK.

In fact, after two full off seasons, 2 training camps, 8 preseason games and 18 regular season games, the offense is pathetic, and is regressing in the most important area .. points. After two games played this year, the only team to have scored less than the Redskins is the Rams.

And after watching today's game, one has to wonder if Zorn will even make it through the entire season.

This coach is out there ... he's calling games like a teenaged fantasy footballer, and his pupil can't find the end zone any better than he could in the second half of last year.

Zorn either doesn't trust his QB or he's just nuts. Or maybe Campbell is a Coach killer ... Gibbs/Saunders couldn't do anything with Campbell .. and now Zorn. What's the common denominator here?

[Irn-Bru]

Again! How could I have missed this! You are right! Detroit has a MUCH better FO than the Redskins. What was I thinking!!

You can't know this. No one can. Detroit's one step of the Redskins in that they've already jettisoned their bad FO.

We, on the other hand, are resigned to waiting for a certain someone's EKG to flatline.

We were talking about whether Snyder is the worst owner in the NFL (and possibly in NFL history). If you'd like to go talk to Detroit fans to convince them Snyder is worse than Ford, be my guest.

Snyder has put a mediocre product on the field with some consistency. I don't see why I need to argue that mediocre does not equal worst, but apparently that's up for debate. News to me.

[grampi]

But either Sonny Jurgensen is a psychic or Zorn is predictable.

Well, either all the opponents defenses are psychics, or Zorn is predictable. I'm going with the latter.

[Redskin in Canada]

I mean, what a horrible mess the franchise is in right now, and I don't see it getting any better. It would just be a miracle for a young coach to take control next season and draft a QB high (I like Colt McCoy) so we can hope for some Flacco or Ryan like success... but that's all we have... hope. There's no evidence the Redskins will do any of that.

Instead the evidence suggests that Snyder will gas up Redskins One and meet with Cowher or Shannahan offering millions and millions for another spectacular failure.

You and I share the same viewpoint. Lately the only reason I pay attention is to see if the fans will grow the stones necessary to boycott the team to hurt Snyder's bottom line.

Welcome to join in the Rebelion against the Evil Empire.

It took you too long but you are welcome nevertheless. I knew and forecasted that many of you would joinn our side of te arguent based on the RECORD. It is an act of intellectual honesty and I respect you for that.

Hail!

[Redskin in Canada]

But either Sonny Jurgensen is a psychic or Zorn is predictable.

Well, either all the opponents defenses are psychics, or Zorn is predictable. I'm going with the latter.

This is going to be a LOOOOONG season for the Redskins but it going to be the LAST one for Jim Zorn and Jason Campbell.

It saddens me on both counts. They are fine people and I would be proud to call both of them my friends on a personal basis. But as contenders in one of the most competitive sports leagues in the world, they do not stand to keep their jobs.

Jim Zorn's failure was the only BIG question mark that I had coming into this season. He is failing EVEN as an offensive coordinator, which is the job he was originally brought in to perform. His QB coaching is going nowhere as well.

I am very sad.