2009 Jason Campnell Thread... this year makes or breaks him

[RayNAustin]

I've never understood the hate for Brunell and the irrational love for Campbell thing. But this is about Campbell, not Brunell,

What we see from Campbell (despite the heels dug in arguments to the contrary) is a QB that consistently fails to get the job done (score TD's). And making excuses for this has become the national pastime over the past three years.

Selectively looking at statistics is really just another irrelevant excuse making exercise, while ignoring the bottom line. When Campbell is the QB we lose more than we win. That is a fact, regardless of how many excuses are paraded about. Another plain as day fact is that we saw Collins come in in 2007 and immediately provide dramatic improvement in the offense not because Collins was so exceptionally brilliant and talented, but because he was competent and able to get the ball to the other play makers (play makers that apparently didn't exist when Campbell is in there, go figure).

Collins didn't prove that he was the next best thing to Tom Brady ... no. What Collins proved was that with competence and reasonable execution at the QB position the Redskins did in fact have enough skill players to be extremely productive and competitive on offense, with a 10 point increase per game average (HUGE DIFFERENCE). He proved that the laundry list of excuses used to explain Campbell's lack of production were abjectly false, by being successful with the same resources available to Campbell.

The O-Line didn't magically improve midway through the Chicago game .. no.. Collins simply made quicker reads and didn't hold the ball too long. The receivers didn't magically get taller, the passes just got more accurate, and consequently, more plays were made and MORE POINTS SCORED.

And that doesn't prove that Collins is definitely the answer, it simply proved that Campbell definitely isn't the answer, no matter how badly some wanted him to be.

[KazooSkinsFan]

So instead of Zorn either making a decision on the starting QB or calling a game that utilizes Jason's strengths, we will get what we are now.

He has no "strength." He can't make quick reads, he can't scramble and make plays and he can't make deep throws. The only thing he can do is if you give him enough time make a competent throw, usually. You can't build any offensive system around that.

We will agree to disagree on this one.... You know what this compares to? It's like trying to turn Ichiro into a power-hitter. He's a slap hitter with a swing geared to just that, slapping the ball for hits not hitting HRs or hitting for power. So 9 years later, he's averaged 200 hits per season (MLB Record). It's what he's good at so their manager's let him do his thing...

Interesting. The analogy without the point. So what are you arguing is Jason's strength that Zorn should be calling plays for?

[KazooSkinsFan]

I've never understood the hate for Brunell and the irrational love for Campbell thing

OK, I'll explain it to you.

Our argument: It's hard to find an NFL starting quarterback and he seems to have some skills and a great arm. He's only done so so, but the OL is an issue, his changing systems every year is an issue, having few receivers is an issue. Sounds like we need to try to develop him and see if he's our solution or not.

Ray's Response: That's just "irrational love" what the heck is up with that!!!!

So Ray, do you see the "irrational" now? Hint, it's not where you thought it was...

[Mursilis]

I wasn't wishing for Campbell back in '05, I was wishing for Ramsey.

That's no better. There is a pretty good reason he's only been a #3 since leaving Washington.

Brunell was the right choice at the time, contra the popular rantings and ravings against Gibbs for sticking with him. He's the best quarterback we've had in the last 10 years.

Like JF pointed out, the system was doing much better before we decided to revamp it. I think the transition to Campbell running the offense would have been a lot smoother without Al Saunders.

I disagree, but we've beaten that horse to death countless times, so I'm going to drop it.

[SkinsJock]

Thanks Kaz! I agree about Campbell - despite the rantings, the offensive issues have not proven (to me anyway) to be all the fault of the QB - we have no QB on our roster that we can say would definetly have been better with the plays that were called and the way the players around Campbell played.

I agree that he still looks very slow and looks like he is not able to handle the position as well as we would like BUT he's still who we have here that has the best chance at success - we all knew this going into this season and we all understand the implications - I will also agree that that is a pretty sorry state of afffairs but that is the make-up of this team

we get nowhere pulling things apart when we have had only 1 meaningful game against a good team that took advantage of the things that happened during the game a lot better than we did

I think if Zorn thought that Hunter Smith gave him a better chance at QB he would be starting the next game

[Mursilis]

There's little point in debating JC's performance after just one game so far this season. We all know he's in a contract year, so it's going to be make-or-break for him this year. He's at least going to be the starter next week, so at this point I'm just going to sit back and see what he does against a not-so-scary Rams D. If he doesn't light it up against them, it's definitely going to be hard to defend his performance.

[SkinsJock]

OK! - let's take another step in the right direction

for those concerned about the offensive and defensive issues - let's also try and see what happens against some teams who do not have a top defensive or offensive line to stabilize their teams - We have an opportunity for the next few weeks to see both lines play against lines that are not going to be anywhere near as good as we played against yesterday

we played quite possibly our toughest game of the year, as our opener - let's all take a big breath and pray that all the things we witnessed yesterday were just an aberration - after all, there is no point in throwing out the baby with the bath-water ....

[HEROHAMO]

I do think that it was important for Campbell to get the mistakes out of the way early this year.

What makes you think that he has gotten the mistakes out of the way, or that he will release faster with better judgement, or that the OL will play better, or that the WRs will open up, or that ... never mind.

However ... we will play against weaker DLs and the Skins will win some games, enough to get us about 8 - 8 where we always thought they would be.

Unfortuately, it also looks as last place in this tough NFC East and no playoffs .... again where we always thought they would be.

Please do not overreact. It is not a disaster. It is just another mediocre season. Yep, right there where we thought they would be.

Overeact? LOL! My post was a positive one. Most everyone here knows I wanted to see Colt Brennan playing already.
However what I saw in the past game was some positive signs out of the mess that ensued.
JC took some chances. Yes he made two huge mistakes. But, I do think the mistakes he made can be fixed easily. Stepping up in the pocket is an easy adjustment. Tucking the ball and just sliding instead of making a throw to a midget receiver is an easy fix as well.

I am now going to withdraw my 8-8 prediction. I now up it to 10-6 considering the cupcake scheduele we have.
Also I am pretty sure JC is going to get confidence in the upcoming games.

[Gametime33]

Umenyora's play on Campbell was what every competent pass rusher gets paid to do.

It was bad luck if you look at it objectively that Campbell's fumble resulted in 7 points the other way, and Andre Carter's forced fumble on Eli Manning dropped in Lorezo Alexander's lap while he's touched to kill the play right where it is.

This game was about poor execution and bad playcalling if you ask me.

The offense under Jim Zorn is built for run first pass second.

I don't care if you guys disagree with this statement. Three straight running plays from the four yard line tells me that Zorn thinks Jason cannot be trusted to lead the offense on a long drive with his arm.

I agree with DE that we have no starting QB on this roster.

Andre Woodson replaced Chase Daniel, and isn't going to do much but hold the clipboard. Colt's injured and Todd Collins is a year younger than Brett Favre & the same age as Kurt Warner, but with a lot arm strength.

If we were looking to see some excitement from the offense we will have to wait for the real stars to shine at FedEx versus the Ramblin' Rams.

No repeat of last year's game please.

"40 men together can't lose." George Allen

[Gametime33]

Collins has a lot less arm strength was how this sentence was supposed to read.

Said my peace.

"Alright guys let's go get em." Joe Gibbs pregame speech in his second stint as Redskins coach.

[Wahoo McDaniels]

I think everyone's missing the point. Campbell has all of the tangibles...great arm strength, great size, good speed and he's seems like an intelligent guy. Where he struggles is in his grasp and feel of the game. If we were able to determine great players by their measurables, we might well play the games as a series of combine events and tally the scores to determine a winner.

But the problem is you have to actually know how to play...and I'm not sure over Jason Campbell's entire body of work (not just one game this year), I have seen a grasp of the game or any noticeable improvement.

As I watched him yesterday, I almost felt like when I watched him a couple of years ago in Dallas when he threw that horrible interception out of nowhere to lose the game for them after marching the ball down to the 10 yd line. He seems like he will continue to make the same terrible mistakes over and over because he doesn't quite grasp the game.

Now, I am not in any way calling for Todd Collins, Colt Brennan or Chase Daniels (or Babe Laufenberg for that matter), because they are not a solution either. But, I think we can now definitively say that JC isn't the long term solution for this team. He should remain the starter due to no better option and who knows the team may win despite him. And I make my assessment, not because of one game, but because of the lack of any type of progression over his time as a starter. He will continue to:

- not step up in the pocket even though he has a perfect pocket to step into and fumble the football

- throw terrible interceptions for no reason

- and to throw a new one into the mix, check into unbelievable plays.


It's time to start scouting the colleges for a suitable replacement....we've ridden this horse as far as we can.

[Gametime33]

Jason's decision making has not improved from last year, which is disheartening for me, because win or lose I thought he would be able to handle the pressure.

I do still say that his coach needs to provide him with a more balanced play selection.

The trick plays were ill-advised and killed the nice drives Jason & Co. were trying to put together.

There's not one "tangible" to point to and say "if we fixed this issue, we would have won the game."

It's a collective failure to put together a complete offensive and defensive performance, and for the life of me I want to know what will be different about Week 2.

Are the Rams beatable? Yes, but so are we.

There are no cakewalks for this team. Period.

[Champsturf]

How about we go get someone that can run the west coast system? Not a permanant solution for the future, but for this year? If I was Zorn, before making it to the locker room, I would've made a quick call to Garcia...

[nc skins]

garcia signed with the iggles today. How about we look to open up the playbook in favor of jason campbell. remember guys, if campbell fails this year, so does zorn. there will either be both or neither next year

[Champsturf]

garcia signed with the iggles today. How about we look to open up the playbook in favor of jason campbell. remember guys, if campbell fails this year, so does zorn. there will either be both or neither next year

That just figures. Like I said though, he should've made that call even before making it to the locker room.

I'm not really sure what you want to do to open it up in favor of Campbell. He has great arm strength and that's about it. No accuracy, no touch, no sense of awareness in the pocket, holds the ball too long...I guess he could just keep handing it off

[nc skins]

let him throw the intermediate routes. he seems to hit the 12-15 yard pass well. Thats one of his few strengths. if we dont do that we are going to look like the team that finished the year 2-6

[Champsturf]

let him throw the intermediate routes. he seems to hit the 12-15 yard pass well. Thats one of his few strengths. if we dont do that we are going to look like the team that finished the year 2-6

One strength really won't get us far. I agree that he does seem to do that well, but if it's all intermediate routes and handoffs, we're in for a long season.

[nc skins]

agreed. lets just hope we see some positives against the rams

[Champsturf]

Positives and a "W", I hope...lol

[mweb08]

http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2009/08/20 ... rs-beware/

Very telling stats and research on Campbell's 2008 season.

[frankcal20]

campbell haters beware
Category: redskins — b murf @ 11:11 am


This isn’t breaking news or anything, but Washington Redskins fans love a quarterback controversy. Always have. Always will.

If you’ve been in the D.C. area for football season, you know this.

That being said, if you’re convinced that Jason Campbell was the only reason the Redskins fell apart last season, you’re a sad cliché.

We’ve always felt Campbell was a solid quarterback. In our eyes he’s good, but not great, and with the proper tools around him, is more than capable of getting the job done. But until this point, that was more of a gut feeling than anything else. We didn’t really have any legitimate proof to back up our stance.

That all changed recently when we picked up a copy of the Football Outsiders Almanac 2009. For those not familiar, this book is one of the most ridiculously thorough resources available to fans who really want to learn about football. These guys chart and research everything. If you can dream it up, it’s probably in the book.

We openly admit that we’re homers for Campbell. But the Football Outsiders crew has no such allegiance. If the numbers showed he couldn’t get the job done, they’d have no problem saying so. Even though we’re fans of Campbell, even we were surprised at what we learned.

Here’s what Redskins fans know about last season: Campbell completed 62.3 percent of his passes, threw for 3,245 yards with 13 touchdowns and six interceptions and had a QB rating of 84.3.

Here’s what most fans don’t know about last season (again, courtesy of Football Outsiders Almanac):

1. Campbell’s receivers led the league in dropped passes with 39. We repeat – Redskins receivers dropped more passes than anyone else in football in 2008.
2. Receivers Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El both ranked in the top 10 in the NFL in dropped passes. Moss ranked second with 12 (behind only Cleveland’s Braylon Edwards with 15), while Randle El was tied for ninth with nine drops.
3. Running back Clinton Portis only had six drops. Compared to Moss and Randle El that seems okay, but he was actually third in the league in percentage of dropped passes (17 percent).
4. Campbell was also in the top 10 in the NFL last season in passes defended with 50 – meaning if Campbell threw a “jump ball,” more times than not, the defender beat the receiver on the play.
5. Campbell was sixth best in the league in percentage of overthrown passes. He overthrew his wideouts 18 times, which works out to 3.6 percent. Conversely, Derek Anderson of the Browns overthrew his receivers a league-worst nine percent of the time.
6. Campbell was second best in the NFL in underthrown passes (6.4 percent), trailing only Matt Schaub of the Houston Texans (4.9 percent). It should also be noted that Campbell attempted 126 more passes than the injury-prone Schaub. Oakland’s JaMarcus Russell led the league in underthrown passes (16.5 percent).
7. Campbell was fifth in the NFL in QB hits with 47, and tied for third in quarterback knockdowns with 88. In fact, Campbell got knocked down more than 16 percent of the time he dropped back to pass, which was eighth most in the league.
8. In spite of all of this, Campbell was eighth in the NFL in quarterback accuracy at 85.7. This statistic factors in passes that are not thrown ahead or behind, overthrown or underthrown or out of bounds.

Now let us change gears for a minute.

In the first eight games of 2008, Portis rushed for a league-best 944 yards. He averaged five yards per carry and racked up seven touchdowns. In the second half of the season, Portis rushed for 543 yards at 3.5 yards per carry, and had just two touchdowns. Did Portis suddenly forget how to play the position? Were people calling for Ladell Betts or Rock Cartwright (the Colt Brennan of Redskins running backs) to supplant Portis as the feature back? Of course not.

Most fans understood that the offensive line was so bad down the stretch last season that, many times, Portis had to make magic happen just to get back to the line of scrimmage.

And let’s not forget, Jim Zorn told Sports Illustrated this offseason that he had to change his playing calling last year because he knew there were plays in his playbook that the offensive line simply couldn’t do their job long enough to set up.

People heard those comments and Portis got the benefit of the doubt. But because this town simply cannot help but obsess over a potential quarterback controversy, Campbell never got the same respect (even if he played behind the same putrid offensive line). Here’s how Campbell fared during the same stretch:

In the first eight games, Campbell completed 66 percent of his passes while throwing for 1,754 yards, with eight touchdowns and zero interceptions.

In the final eight games, Campbell completed 59 percent of his passes while throwing for 1,491, with five touchdowns and six interceptions.

What’s more, Campbell’s yards per pass attempt dropped from 7.6 yards the first half of the season to 5.4 yards per attempt down the stretch. That only reinforces our belief that Campbell simply didn’t have enough time to look downfield, so he routinely had to settle with check downs and dump-offs.

So, to recap, because of a substandard offensive line, Campbell faced as much pressure as any quarterback in the league. And yet, statistically speaking, he was one of the most accurate quarterbacks in the NFL. His throws were almost always on target, but Campbell’s receivers dropped more passes than anyone else.

His offensive line failed him. His receivers failed him. And at the end of the day, fans (and even his own front office) figured it was easier to blame Campbell than to admit there are much larger problems with Washington’s offense. It makes sense though. It’s easier (and cheaper) to replace one guy rather than half the offense – even if he’s not the problem.

Our only hope is that after this season, Campbell finds himself in a city where he’s truly appreciated and is surrounded with enough talent to show critics exactly what he’s capable of. Just know that when it happens, we’ll be here saying, “Told you so.”

We’ve said our piece, now let’s open it up to Campbell haters …

Really good article. Stat's don't lie.

[Champsturf]

They also don't tell the whole story...

[frankcal20]

Remember - we agreed that you don't see my posts nor respond to them.

[CanesSkins26]

he's seems like an intelligent guy.

Not when it comes to football.

[Champsturf]

Remember - we agreed that you don't see my posts nor respond to them.

Now THAT's on topic

I will respond to any post I choose, whether it's a good post or a moronic one...

Stats don't lie and do NOT tell the whole story either. Campbell needs to NOT worry about stats and just play the game to win, not to "not lose."