Obama not measuring up (my apologies)

[KazooSkinsFan]

You did, and I even pointed out a few places where

You didn't point out anything. You highlighted parts where you made a claim and I directly addressed them. So, be explicit. What did you say that I didn't accurately represent? I mean besides pointing out quotes where I did. Was it the liberal spin going away you objected to?

Edit: I've been thinking about your water pipe analogy while mowing the lawn, and it occurred to me that you sabotaged your own argument by using it. Since the pipe is a metaphor for the Public School System, the water would have to be students

OMFG. You didn't recognize that the water was money? OMFG. I can't believe even you didn't pick up on that one.

When you don't even understand what you yourself write, how could you possibly understand what others are saying?

Bam! Now that's what I'm talking about. You didn't even get the OBVIOUS reference to the water as money and you chastise me for this. THIS is why it's still fun "debating" you my friend. You're a hoot.

[KazooSkinsFan]

removing any accountability from the process over teaching effectively. Yes, I refer to the Union of Failed Teachers.

The main problem I see in the problem area of education is the lack of accountability

Sounds like we agree. I was talking about the problem with the system, I never say anywhere every "individual" teacher. I agree there are good ones, but the system in broken and the issue isn't money. The issue is that administrators are bureaucrats and the teacher unions prevent the schools from dealing with the bad ones, rewarding teaching excellence or paying more for teachers with actual marketable skills, like computer and math. When teachers are horrible, there's little to nothing you can do. Thanks Union of Failed Teachers...

The instances you're referring to are where individuals without reward or recognition individually CHOSE to be good teachers. That the system doesn't have any accountability is the root problem, one we agree on.

[Deadskins]

Edit: I've been thinking about your water pipe analogy while mowing the lawn, and it occurred to me that you sabotaged your own argument by using it. Since the pipe is a metaphor for the Public School System, the water would have to be students

OMFG. You didn't recognize that the water was money? OMFG. I can't believe even you didn't pick up on that one.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You quote half my post (the half that you can make some sort of lame attempt at answering), and then ignore the part that directly refutes your lame come back, which I anticipated and answered. To wit:

But, according to you, the water is money (i.e. "liberals"* want to apply more money to the problem, which consequently would be used to try and fix the pipe). But, if the water were money, you are saying that "liberals"* expect to make more money come out of the other end of the pipe by pushing more through from the start.

So I say again:

When you don't even understand what you yourself write, how could you possibly understand what others are saying?

[KazooSkinsFan]

Edit: I've been thinking about your water pipe analogy while mowing the lawn, and it occurred to me that you sabotaged your own argument by using it. Since the pipe is a metaphor for the Public School System, the water would have to be students

OMFG. You didn't recognize that the water was money? OMFG. I can't believe even you didn't pick up on that one.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You quote half my post (the half that you can make some sort of lame attempt at answering), and then ignore the part that directly refutes your lame come back, which I anticipated and answered. To wit:

But, according to you, the water is money (i.e. "liberals"* want to apply more money to the problem, which consequently would be used to try and fix the pipe). But, if the water were money, you are saying that "liberals"* expect to make more money come out of the other end of the pipe by pushing more through from the start.

So I say again:

When you don't even understand what you yourself write, how could you possibly understand what others are saying?

Dude, if you don't know what you were trying to say then stop asking me what you meant. The question is simple.

What did you say, what point did you make that I misrepresented? It's not that hard.

[Deadskins]

removing any accountability from the process over teaching effectively. Yes, I refer to the Union of Failed Teachers.

The main problem I see in the problem area of education is the lack of accountability

Sounds like we agree. I was talking about the problem with the system, I never say anywhere every "individual" teacher. I agree there are good ones, but the system in broken and the issue isn't money. The issue is that administrators are bureaucrats and the teacher unions prevent the schools from dealing with the bad ones, rewarding teaching excellence or paying more for teachers with actual marketable skills, like computer and math. When teachers are horrible, there's little to nothing you can do. Thanks Union of Failed Teachers...

See, we actually agree on the main issues with the public school system, in that there is little accountability. Public schools are like most government jobs, in that it's hard to lose your job if your performance is not up to par. But money is also definitely an issue, because when you can not pay competitive rates to the good teachers, then the only ones who choose the public schools, are the ones that care more about educating than about making a living. So the two main issues are getting rid of the bad educators, and paying the good ones competitive rates. I see vouchers as counterproductive to those goals. It is not a liberal or conservative issue, it is just plain common sense.

[Deadskins]

Edit: I've been thinking about your water pipe analogy while mowing the lawn, and it occurred to me that you sabotaged your own argument by using it. Since the pipe is a metaphor for the Public School System, the water would have to be students

OMFG. You didn't recognize that the water was money? OMFG. I can't believe even you didn't pick up on that one.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You quote half my post (the half that you can make some sort of lame attempt at answering), and then ignore the part that directly refutes your lame come back, which I anticipated and answered. To wit:

But, according to you, the water is money (i.e. "liberals"* want to apply more money to the problem, which consequently would be used to try and fix the pipe). But, if the water were money, you are saying that "liberals"* expect to make more money come out of the other end of the pipe by pushing more through from the start.

So I say again:

When you don't even understand what you yourself write, how could you possibly understand what others are saying?

Dude, if you don't know what you were trying to say then stop asking me what you meant. The question is simple.

What did you say, what point did you make that I misrepresented? It's not that hard.

OK, just for you, I will do it this one time.

The main problem is that you have a preconceived notion of what it is I'm going to say before I've said it, so you read my posts through a lens of your own prejudices. You consider me a "liberal," so you read into my posts, arguments and ideas that I am not putting forward. You do not read, with comprehension, what I have actually written.

I carefully worded my statement and chose the word "people" rather than "liberals" on purpose, because not just "liberals" that oppose vouchers. I also was careful to point out that money is a big part of the issue because, if you can't pay competitive wages, you cannot attract the best educators over the private sector. I never mentioned accountability for the bad educators in that particular post (more later), which I happen to believe in, because I was specifically answering Hero's question about why vouchers are opposed. It is strictly mathematical, if you take money away from one side of the equation, and add it to the other side, then it becomes unbalanced. But you chose to attack arguments I never made, such as:

We spend an incredible amount on education in this country. The problem is not money, it's that lazy, corrupt government bureaucrats are managing lazy, self interested teachers who are interested in things like having no co-pay to rein in spiraling health care costs and removing any accountability from the process over teaching effectively.

How did we get on health care? Show me where I said the problem is only money? I made the argument that vouchers do not fully cover the tuition costs of private education, so that still remains out of reach of the poorest families. I also stated that when you take money out of the public school system, that only leaves those still in the system at an even bigger disadvantage. I talked about priorities of where money is spent. I even said the public school system is underfunded, but I never said the root of the issue is money. Money is an important factor in the equation, yes, but it is one of many.

It's fine that you want to eliminate public education, but I believe in it. I pointed out in my follow-up post to CT, that I send my son to a public school, and that I had to move to get into a better school district, because I realize that the school in my old district Is not up to par. I also pointed out (in that follow-up), that a big problem is that people are not accountable, and not only teachers, but the parents who are withdrawn from the process. And yet, even though I asked you to read all my posts on the topic in reference to your mischaracterization of my views, you continue to rail against the teachers' union, as if I was somehow defending that institution.

Lastly, you come up with an analogy that, while humorous, does not relate to the situation, and is even counter to your own argument (although you don't realize it ), and, most importantly, does not accurately reflect my views in the least.

If you can not see now how I feel you mischaracterized my post, then I see no further use in debating with you.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I also was careful to point out that money is a big part of the issue because, if you can't pay competitive wages, you cannot attract the best educators over the private sector

This is what I was mocking. You go on to support you are arguing it. I did not say it was your only view on the subject, it's the one I disagreed with, said so, and addressed. You go on to clearly support I was correct in saying your view is we need to pump more money into schools. I am saying we pump PLENTY into schools.

You have no support at all of your assertion our schools are underfunded except for anecdotal stories that even if accepted don't justify the assertion we need more money in schools. Only that more money could go to some specific things. In other words, if accepted your anecdotal points could be solved with better redistribution alone.

If you go to your other non-money points, ding, ding, ding. You are saying my point that the pipe is CRACKED. There are in fact large gaping holes. No accountability? That is MAJOR. Yet, despite acknowledging the large cracks and gushing water, you call for MORE money. Bam, my point. The liberal solution to a cracked pipe, pump MORE water. And again water is MONEY not STUDENTS.

If you can not see now how I feel you mischaracterized my post, then I see no further use in debating with you.

I know why you feel I did. You are focusing on your feelings instead of what you said. Though in fairness regarding debating me, you really don't now

[Deadskins]

I also was careful to point out that money is a big part of the issue because, if you can't pay competitive wages, you cannot attract the best educators over the private sector

This is what I was mocking. You go on to support you are arguing it. I did not say it was your only view on the subject, it's the one I disagreed with, said so, and addressed. You go on to clearly support I was correct in saying your view is we need to pump more money into schools. I am saying we pump PLENTY into schools.

What's ironic is that you think you are mocking me while you constantly prove you don't even understand what think you are mocking. I know you think we pump plenty of money into schools, but I happen to think schools are something that shouldn't be skimped on. It's a question of priorities. I do not, however, advocate just pouring money into schools with no accountability. This is where your perception separates from the reality of my views.

You have no support at all of your assertion our schools are underfunded except for anecdotal stories that even if accepted don't justify the assertion we need more money in schools.

Gee, you think that might be because it is my opinion? But it's laughable that you call me on anecdotal evidence, when you have never offered anything but anecdotal evidence on this subject, yourself.

If you go to your other non-money points, ding, ding, ding. You are saying my point that the pipe is CRACKED. There are in fact large gaping holes. No accountability? That is MAJOR. Yet, despite acknowledging the large cracks and gushing water, you call for MORE money. Bam, my point. The liberal solution to a cracked pipe, pump MORE water. And again water is MONEY not STUDENTS.

Your insistence that the water = money in your own analogy only reinforces my contention that you don't even comprehend what you write, much less what others write. If the water equaled money then "the liberals" would expect money to come out the other end of the pipe. Fixing this flawed metaphor is incredibly simple, yet you refuse to even acknowledge that you have it wrong. Money would be a faulty patch on the broken pipe, and "the liberals" would be screaming for more patches. Or better yet, they would continue to hire the same bumbling plumber to fix the leak. I understand you want the water to be money, but wanting something doesn't make it so.

Though in fairness regarding debating me, you really don't now

You got that right! You have no game. Take for instance this little gem of an exchange:

When you don't even understand what you yourself write, how could you possibly understand what others are saying?

Dude, if you don't know what you were trying to say then stop asking me what you meant.

Dude, your reading comprehension skills are non-existent.

[KazooSkinsFan]

When you don't even understand what you yourself write, how could you possibly understand what others are saying?

Dude, if you don't know what you were trying to say then stop asking me what you meant.

Dude, your reading comprehension skills are non-existent.

Actually, your sarcasm detector's busted

If you have an actual point to make I'll debate it with you. Your "logic" is a hoot, my friend. Keep it up! You have flooded me with nonsense. Drivel is your biggest weapon. That and your continual rewriting of what you said.

You are for more money for schools, but you're not, but if you are then you aren't but you are. You are a liberal, but you're not a Democrat. But you are a Democrat, you're just a true liberal like Irn-Bru but he supports no government and you support oppressive government, which is demonstrated by that you are and are not a liberal who is and isn't a Democrat.

I admit you have my head spinning.

[Deadskins]

When you don't even understand what you yourself write, how could you possibly understand what others are saying?

Dude, if you don't know what you were trying to say then stop asking me what you meant.

Dude, your reading comprehension skills are non-existent.

Actually, your sarcasm detector's busted

If you have an actual point to make I'll debate it with you. Your "logic" is a hoot, my friend. Keep it up! You have flooded me with nonsense. Drivel is your biggest weapon. That and your continual rewriting of what you said.

You are for more money for schools, but you're not, but if you are then you aren't but you are. You are a liberal, but you're not a Democrat. But you are a Democrat, you're just a true liberal like Irn-Bru but he supports no government and you support oppressive government, which is demonstrated by that you are and are not a liberal who is and isn't a Democrat.

I admit you have my head spinning.

Whatever you say, Kazoo. You obviously know all.

[KazooSkinsFan]

When you don't even understand what you yourself write, how could you possibly understand what others are saying?

Dude, if you don't know what you were trying to say then stop asking me what you meant.

Dude, your reading comprehension skills are non-existent.

Actually, your sarcasm detector's busted

If you have an actual point to make I'll debate it with you. Your "logic" is a hoot, my friend. Keep it up! You have flooded me with nonsense. Drivel is your biggest weapon. That and your continual rewriting of what you said.

You are for more money for schools, but you're not, but if you are then you aren't but you are. You are a liberal, but you're not a Democrat. But you are a Democrat, you're just a true liberal like Irn-Bru but he supports no government and you support oppressive government, which is demonstrated by that you are and are not a liberal who is and isn't a Democrat.

I admit you have my head spinning.

Whatever you say, Kazoo. You obviously know all.

Mirror

[HEROHAMO]

When you don't even understand what you yourself write, how could you possibly understand what others are saying?

Dude, if you don't know what you were trying to say then stop asking me what you meant.

Dude, your reading comprehension skills are non-existent.

Actually, your sarcasm detector's busted

If you have an actual point to make I'll debate it with you. Your "logic" is a hoot, my friend. Keep it up! You have flooded me with nonsense. Drivel is your biggest weapon. That and your continual rewriting of what you said.

You are for more money for schools, but you're not, but if you are then you aren't but you are. You are a liberal, but you're not a Democrat. But you are a Democrat, you're just a true liberal like Irn-Bru but he supports no government and you support oppressive government, which is demonstrated by that you are and are not a liberal who is and isn't a Democrat.

I admit you have my head spinning.

Whatever you say, Kazoo. You obviously know all.

Mirror

I meant to comment earlier but man that was funny.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Whatever you say, Kazoo. You obviously know all.

Mirror

I meant to comment earlier but man that was funny.

Thanks!

[Deadskins]

Whatever you say, Kazoo. You obviously know all.

Mirror

I meant to comment earlier but man that was funny.

Thanks!

You're welcome!