JC's ability and comparison to other QB's

[wooly34]

I know I have been accused of being negative with posts or replies, but I watched both pre-season games two times a piece. I am concerned that JC is not the answer and I'm not suggesting that the back-ups are the answer either. The ineptitude of the offense is in my opinion JC's inability to take a chance and allow his Wr's, Te's, and Rb's to make plays. I thought that the game went well given the circumstances (2nd pre-season game), but if JC doesn't perform in game three he needs to be on a short leash. Lastly, I looked at the box scores from all games played thus far and no QB (first or second string) in the NFL has worse stats (completions, ypc, td's) than JC.
I understand that the defenses that JC has played against are the "best" in the NFL, but when will the QB step-up and play well against the best. Hopefully, he can play better and the skins will be successful if not they have wasted three years trying to develop a QB.

[SKINS#1]

I think many on this Redskin message board will agree, JC is not the QB we need. IMO, ABBC - Any Body But Campbell.

[Redskin in Canada]

Jason deserves a last chance to prove himself this season. I do not feel he is the one to lead us to a championship as of this moment due to several tangible and other intangible issues but the guy knows that his future is on the line and perhaps not until the end of the season if he starts poorly.

I only want to remind you all that Jason looked very good during the first part of last season and a few victories erased all his previous faults in the minds of many posters. A few victories swing public opinion dramatically. That is why I feel that he needs to show consistently good results on balance throughout the entire season. A few good games will not cut it.

Good luck Jason!

[RayNAustin]

No, you are not imagining things, and calling it like you see it isn't "negative".

The Redskin offense simply can't sustain and finish drives with Campbell. In the Steelers game, that was true in spite of the fact that the Redskins were running the ball successfully, and pass pro was allowing time. Campbell simply didn't make the throws while he was in there, and people are running out of excuses for him. They've all been used up.

This is especially true in the red zone, and has been problematic the last couple of years. The red zone requires even faster decisions and more accurate throws, neither of which has been Campbell's strong points.

It amazes me that such obvious problems are blamed on o-line, receivers, or anything other than a slow, inaccurate passer.

[RayNAustin]

Jason deserves a last chance to prove himself this season. I do not feel he is the one to lead us to a championship as of this moment due to several tangible and other intangible issues but the guy knows that his future is on the line and perhaps not until the end of the season if he starts poorly.

I only want to remind you all that Jason looked very good during the first part of last season and a few victories erased all his previous faults in the minds of many posters. A few victories swing public opinion dramatically. That is why I feel that he needs to show consistently good results on balance throughout the entire season. A few good games will not cut it.

Good luck Jason!

RIC, this is what has me totally confused ... "Jason Deserves". Why does Jason deserve anything? There is no birth rite to be the Redskin starting QB ... it's not in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? And nobody else on that 53 man roster is guaranteed their starting job year in and year out. What makes Jason so "deserving" ?

Please explain

And additionally, durring the first 8 games last year, Jason had 3 decent games, three bad games and 2 mediocre one's. Portis leading the league in rushing for those 8 games and the defense were responsible for the 6-2 start, not Jason's play.

[screwgun]

Jason deserves a last chance to prove himself this season. I do not feel he is the one to lead us to a championship as of this moment due to several tangible and other intangible issues but the guy knows that his future is on the line and perhaps not until the end of the season if he starts poorly.

I only want to remind you all that Jason looked very good during the first part of last season and a few victories erased all his previous faults in the minds of many posters. A few victories swing public opinion dramatically. That is why I feel that he needs to show consistently good results on balance throughout the entire season. A few good games will not cut it.

Good luck Jason!

RIC, this is what has me totally confused ... "Jason Deserves". Why does Jason deserve anything? There is no birth rite to be the Redskin starting QB ... it's not in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? And nobody else on that 53 man roster is guaranteed their starting job year in and year out. What makes Jason so "deserving" ?

Please explain

And additionally, durring the first 8 games last year, Jason had 3 decent games, three bad games and 2 mediocre one's. Portis leading the league in rushing for those 8 games and the defense were responsible for the 6-2 start, not Jason's play.

Here here, I couldn't agree more. You deserve a chance when you go down on an injury, but how many "chances" (years) do you give someone
Next preseason game we should give CD more playing time and see if it was a fluke or the real deal !!

[ChocolateMilk]

Jason deserves a last chance to prove himself this season. I do not feel he is the one to lead us to a championship as of this moment due to several tangible and other intangible issues but the guy knows that his future is on the line and perhaps not until the end of the season if he starts poorly.

I only want to remind you all that Jason looked very good during the first part of last season and a few victories erased all his previous faults in the minds of many posters. A few victories swing public opinion dramatically. That is why I feel that he needs to show consistently good results on balance throughout the entire season. A few good games will not cut it.

Good luck Jason!

RIC, this is what has me totally confused ... "Jason Deserves". Why does Jason deserve anything? There is no birth rite to be the Redskin starting QB ... it's not in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? And nobody else on that 53 man roster is guaranteed their starting job year in and year out. What makes Jason so "deserving" ?

Please explain

And additionally, durring the first 8 games last year, Jason had 3 decent games, three bad games and 2 mediocre one's. Portis leading the league in rushing for those 8 games and the defense were responsible for the 6-2 start, not Jason's play.

Here here, I couldn't agree more. You deserve a chance when you go down on an injury, but how many "chances" (years) do you give someone
Next preseason game we should give CD more playing time and see if it was a fluke or the real deal !!

He showed the 1st 8 games last year he is capable of running this team and running it well. Then the O-Line broke down and our run game gave out and he started struggling. Everything broke down, not just him. So if you are going to give him THIS MUCH crap. Then you should be giving the whole O-Line, all the receivers and CP just as much. Cuz they are just as deserving as Campbell.

With Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas, and Fred Davis finally playing, that'll give him more options than just Moss, ey, and ARE. Campbell is a better QB than Brennan and Daniels. Otherwise Zorn, you know a professional NFL coach who makes a living out of analyzing QBs, would have noticed and done something. Plus they are going to be using Betts more often on 3rd down which will lower the amount of work on CP so he won't be so worn down towards the end of the season. And they won't rely so heavily on the pass game.

[VetSkinsFan]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

[ChocolateMilk]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

Ha yeah, that's basically what I'm thinking. I'm just not as good with words.

[skinsfan#33]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

Vet,
His second year under Saunders he actually got worse, not better. Not a lot worse, but definitely not better! Why should we expect any difference this year. He had two easy throws for 50+ yard plays in the game last night. Ont to Kelly and one to Moss and he threw two terrible throws. Then he had a chance to hit Moss across the middle for a 15-20 yard gain and a first down (on third and long) and you guessed it, he waited too long and threw the ball too high for Moss.
He is getting worse, not better. The problem is Collins may or may not be better, but one thing is certain he is too old to replace Campbell if we have truly given up on Campbell. I can't imagine Colt or Chase leading this team anywhere in their first year.
We simply have no alternative but to play Campbell, draft a QB next year and start all over.... In the imortal words of George Jetson, "Help! Jane, how to I get off this crazy thing?"

[so.il.SKINSFAN]

Jason deserves a last chance to prove himself this season. I do not feel he is the one to lead us to a championship as of this moment due to several tangible and other intangible issues but the guy knows that his future is on the line and perhaps not until the end of the season if he starts poorly.

I only want to remind you all that Jason looked very good during the first part of last season and a few victories erased all his previous faults in the minds of many posters. A few victories swing public opinion dramatically. That is why I feel that he needs to show consistently good results on balance throughout the entire season. A few good games will not cut it.

Good luck Jason!

RIC, this is what has me totally confused ... "Jason Deserves". Why does Jason deserve anything? There is no birth rite to be the Redskin starting QB ... it's not in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? And nobody else on that 53 man roster is guaranteed their starting job year in and year out. What makes Jason so "deserving" ?

Please explain

And additionally, durring the first 8 games last year, Jason had 3 decent games, three bad games and 2 mediocre one's. Portis leading the league in rushing for those 8 games and the defense were responsible for the 6-2 start, not Jason's play.

AMEN!!!!

[VetSkinsFan]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

Vet,
His second year under Saunders he actually got worse, not better. Not a lot worse, but definitely not better! Why should we expect any difference this year. He had two easy throws for 50+ yard plays in the game last night. Ont to Kelly and one to Moss and he threw two terrible throws. Then he had a chance to hit Moss across the middle for a 15-20 yard gain and a first down (on third and long) and you guessed it, he waited too long and threw the ball too high for Moss.
He is getting worse, not better. The problem is Collins may or may not be better, but one thing is certain he is too old to replace Campbell if we have truly given up on Campbell. I can't imagine Colt or Chase leading this team anywhere in their first year.
We simply have no alternative but to play Campbell, draft a QB next year and start all over.... In the imortal words of George Jetson, "Help! Jane, how to I get off this crazy thing?"

Right, I forgot about that. Wasn't that the year we went thru so many lineman, at one point we had Alexander (primarily a DT) on the offensive line and we also had to put in a lineman with a pulled groin because we had no more reserves. Yup, I totally hold JC responsible for that year. What was I thinking...

[skinsfan#33]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

Vet,
His second year under Saunders he actually got worse, not better. Not a lot worse, but definitely not better! Why should we expect any difference this year. He had two easy throws for 50+ yard plays in the game last night. Ont to Kelly and one to Moss and he threw two terrible throws. Then he had a chance to hit Moss across the middle for a 15-20 yard gain and a first down (on third and long) and you guessed it, he waited too long and threw the ball too high for Moss.
He is getting worse, not better. The problem is Collins may or may not be better, but one thing is certain he is too old to replace Campbell if we have truly given up on Campbell. I can't imagine Colt or Chase leading this team anywhere in their first year.
We simply have no alternative but to play Campbell, draft a QB next year and start all over.... In the immortal words of George Jetson, "Help! Jane, how to I get off this crazy thing?"

Right, I forgot about that. Wasn't that the year we went thru so many lineman, at one point we had Alexander (primarily a DT) on the offensive line and we also had to put in a lineman with a pulled groin because we had no more reserves. Yup, I totally hold JC responsible for that year. What was I thinking...

I don't know about all that but what I do know is that Collins came off the bench and won 4 straight (yes I'm counting the Bears game that JC went down in).

Collins threw 5 TD/ no picks with higher completion % and a much higher Y/A and Y/C than JC. The OL couldn't have been too bad because JC was only sacked 21 times in 13 starts. Collins played better with the same players and the Skins won!

JC's Y/A was 23 behind the likes of Vince Young, Damon Huard, and John Kitna. His Y/C was behind those same three as well as Tarvaris Jackson and Kellen Clemmons.

Our left side started all 16 games and Rabach only missed one game. Thomas and Jansen went down early, but Skins QBs were only sacked 28 times all year and only eleven other QBs were sacked at a lower rate than JC. And Alexander only came in as a tackle eligible for extra beef.

So while the right side was devastated early, it wasn't as bad as you made out. People need to stop making excuses for JC. The NFL is a results oriented league and he simply doesn't get positive results

[RayNAustin]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

You would be correct ... but there's something important that you're leaving out. He's no longer a rookie. This is his FIFTH .. 5th year, 4th as a starter. Compare that to countless other QB's who have surpassed him.

Based on what I saw of Cutler today, it looks like he won't need two years to figure out the Bears system. Matt Ryan didn't have two years. Rothlesburger, Flacco ... Pennington .... none of them seemed to have trouble playing in the first year.

If Campbell scored a point for every excuse made for Campbell not scoring one, he'd break Brady's 2007 scoring record. I'm just say'n.

[brad7686]

[VetSkinsFan]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

You would be correct ... but there's something important that you're leaving out. He's no longer a rookie. This is his FIFTH .. 5th year, 4th as a starter. Compare that to countless other QB's who have surpassed him.

Based on what I saw of Cutler today, it looks like he won't need two years to figure out the Bears system. Matt Ryan didn't have two years. Rothlesburger, Flacco ... Pennington .... none of them seemed to have trouble playing in the first year.

If Campbell scored a point for every excuse made for Campbell not scoring one, he'd break Brady's 2007 scoring record. I'm just say'n.

Hmmm...if I'm referring to him in last year's games, I don't think I'm leaving out he's not a rook.

I'm glad Cutler, who was garnering somewhere around two 1st round picks, can pick up an offense quickly. I would hope that would be the case.

I'm not apologizing for JC, but what alternatives do we have. Collins noodle arm will not be sufficient. He is worse than immobile and he will not be able to stretch the field. I don't want to go throw Colt/Chase out there b/c I really don't think they're ready (I think Colt could have a decent season, but I haven't seen enough of Chase to get a warm and fuzzy). BUT we have no other alternative currently.

[NYFINESTSKINSFAN]

JC has me concerned as well, but I tend to fall back on the success that he had in his first 8 weeks last season. The OL gave good protection, and the running game was on par, but as the offensive line deteriorated, so did JC's performance. Now watching these two preseason, I'm concerned with his performance; the offensive line played well,and JC's performance was subpar. My question is, what is going on?

I live and work in New York, and my friends who are Giant fans never ask about CP, SM, CC, MK, DT, the OL, or the defense as a whole; they only ask, what I think of JC. The big question mark is JC, even for Giant fans.

I have always told them, well he played pretty darn good for the first 8 games of last season; he didn't throw one INT, and his completion percentage was above average. That is a great acomplishment, but as the OL deteriorated, so did JC. For a QB to play well, he needs to be protected, but now I have no answer after watching these two preseason games.

[SkinsJock]

The situation at QB is a big concern but it's also fairly straight-forward - Campbell will get the opportunity to play and has to play badly on the practice field and in games to be replaced. At that time, depending on what the coaches see from the offensive line, a decision on who to replace him with will be made - if the offensive line is able to properly protect the QB and be a lot better than we saw last year, the choices are a little more obvious but I really would be surprised if Zorn is going to put the season, and basically, his future also, in the hands of Brennan or Daniels with an offensive line that is not playing really well.
It seems to me that Zorn is like a lot of coaches who will always err on the side of experience.


This is going to be an interesting scenario over the next 2 weeks. The NFL season starts in 17 days

[RayNAustin]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

You would be correct ... but there's something important that you're leaving out. He's no longer a rookie. This is his FIFTH .. 5th year, 4th as a starter. Compare that to countless other QB's who have surpassed him.

Based on what I saw of Cutler today, it looks like he won't need two years to figure out the Bears system. Matt Ryan didn't have two years. Rothlesburger, Flacco ... Pennington .... none of them seemed to have trouble playing in the first year.

If Campbell scored a point for every excuse made for Campbell not scoring one, he'd break Brady's 2007 scoring record. I'm just say'n.

Hmmm...if I'm referring to him in last year's games, I don't think I'm leaving out he's not a rook.

I'm glad Cutler, who was garnering somewhere around two 1st round picks, can pick up an offense quickly. I would hope that would be the case.

I'm not apologizing for JC, but what alternatives do we have. Collins noodle arm will not be sufficient. He is worse than immobile and he will not be able to stretch the field. I don't want to go throw Colt/Chase out there b/c I really don't think they're ready (I think Colt could have a decent season, but I haven't seen enough of Chase to get a warm and fuzzy). BUT we have no other alternative currently.

The alternative is simple. You make a change before you dig a hole too deep to climb out of.

Last year, the final 8 games were pathetic, and the 2-6 finish would have been 1-7 had the defense not crushed Philly. In any case, I don't see how it could be much worse than that, regardless of who you plug in at QB. Furthermore, the hot start at 6-2 was due in large measure to Portis and the defense, not Campbell, as so often repeated. Campbell played horribly in the opener against NY (a game we could have easily won with competent production on offense). Campbell played well for the next three games (the only three game stretch he's ever played well in) but it went down hill from there, and got progressively worse. And Campbell's poor play didn't start because of the injuries, it started before that. At least one game, Portis ran for more yards than Campbell threw for, and he came close to that on one or two other games too. Campbell's difficulties were simply amplified when Portis could no longer carry the team single handedly.

This really is kicking a dead horse. Most now recognize what I've been saying since mid 2007 ... Campbell isn't the answer, and given the unlikely scenario of him even being a Redskin next year, the time to explore alternatives is now.... not after another season is hopelessly lost.

I know the current mantra now .. "Campbell ain't that great, but he's the best option at the moment". I disagree. Evidence shows that Collins is IN FACT more productive when he plays. That was the case in 2007, which is the ONLY evidence available. Since then, he hasn't been given a single opportunity to even compete with the first team, so HOW CAN ANYONE be so sure he wouldn't outplay Campbell now, just like he did in 2007.

The absolute unwillingness to even consider a change is what I find irrational and exasperating.

You know, I watch a lot of sports reviews. Watch a lot of games. Read a lot of commentary, and I cannot find a single example of QB excuse making like I see regarding Campbell. You NEVER HEAR anything about "systems" when discussing other QB's in the league. In fact, Romo switched "systems in 2007 and excelled. Matt Ryan performed great as a rookie, as did some others. Pennington went to Miami and was very productive right out of the blocks last year. And so far, Sanchez seems to be doing quite nicely in camp as a rookie. So this idea that it takes two and three years in one system before you should expect production from your QB, and especially a veteran QB is apparently a Washington Redskin phenomenon.

Time for less talk (excuses) and more action (results).

[VetSkinsFan]

First off, let me qualify my point of view. I do not believe JC is the answer at this point in time. I do not believe that Collins is the answer, or even a stopgap. He's not shown any more in this system than JC has. If you really want to split hairs, Daniel looks the best so far. Shall we start him vs Giants week 1?

You can contort viewpoints to your agenda and you seem all well and good. I am not arguing the same points over and over again. If there's nothing new to say, then consider me a bystander...and you've produced nothing new.

[SnyderSucks]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

You would be correct ... but there's something important that you're leaving out. He's no longer a rookie. This is his FIFTH .. 5th year, 4th as a starter. Compare that to countless other QB's who have surpassed him.

Based on what I saw of Cutler today, it looks like he won't need two years to figure out the Bears system. Matt Ryan didn't have two years. Rothlesburger, Flacco ... Pennington .... none of them seemed to have trouble playing in the first year.

If Campbell scored a point for every excuse made for Campbell not scoring one, he'd break Brady's 2007 scoring record. I'm just say'n.

Hmmm...if I'm referring to him in last year's games, I don't think I'm leaving out he's not a rook.

I'm glad Cutler, who was garnering somewhere around two 1st round picks, can pick up an offense quickly. I would hope that would be the case.

I'm not apologizing for JC, but what alternatives do we have. Collins noodle arm will not be sufficient. He is worse than immobile and he will not be able to stretch the field. I don't want to go throw Colt/Chase out there b/c I really don't think they're ready (I think Colt could have a decent season, but I haven't seen enough of Chase to get a warm and fuzzy). BUT we have no other alternative currently.

The alternative is simple. You make a change before you dig a hole too deep to climb out of.

Last year, the final 8 games were pathetic, and the 2-6 finish would have been 1-7 had the defense not crushed Philly. In any case, I don't see how it could be much worse than that, regardless of who you plug in at QB. Furthermore, the hot start at 6-2 was due in large measure to Portis and the defense, not Campbell, as so often repeated. Campbell played horribly in the opener against NY (a game we could have easily won with competent production on offense). Campbell played well for the next three games (the only three game stretch he's ever played well in) but it went down hill from there, and got progressively worse. And Campbell's poor play didn't start because of the injuries, it started before that. At least one game, Portis ran for more yards than Campbell threw for, and he came close to that on one or two other games too. Campbell's difficulties were simply amplified when Portis could no longer carry the team single handedly.

This really is kicking a dead horse. Most now recognize what I've been saying since mid 2007 ... Campbell isn't the answer, and given the unlikely scenario of him even being a Redskin next year, the time to explore alternatives is now.... not after another season is hopelessly lost.

I know the current mantra now .. "Campbell ain't that great, but he's the best option at the moment". I disagree. Evidence shows that Collins is IN FACT more productive when he plays. That was the case in 2007, which is the ONLY evidence available. Since then, he hasn't been given a single opportunity to even compete with the first team, so HOW CAN ANYONE be so sure he wouldn't outplay Campbell now, just like he did in 2007.

The absolute unwillingness to even consider a change is what I find irrational and exasperating.

You know, I watch a lot of sports reviews. Watch a lot of games. Read a lot of commentary, and I cannot find a single example of QB excuse making like I see regarding Campbell. You NEVER HEAR anything about "systems" when discussing other QB's in the league. In fact, Romo switched "systems in 2007 and excelled. Matt Ryan performed great as a rookie, as did some others. Pennington went to Miami and was very productive right out of the blocks last year. And so far, Sanchez seems to be doing quite nicely in camp as a rookie. So this idea that it takes two and three years in one system before you should expect production from your QB, and especially a veteran QB is apparently a Washington Redskin phenomenon.

Time for less talk (excuses) and more action (results).

Have we been watching the same team? Collins had a lot of trouble grasping the offense last season, much more so than Campbell. It wasn't even close last offseason. The interception that Collins threw when trying to complete a pass over the middle shows the problem for Collins - the "noodle arm" referred to earlier. He can look okay in a preseason game against backups or for a short period in relief during the season. Give an opponent game tape of him playing and they'll take away the underneath stuff. Put Collins head on Campbells arm, and perhaps you have something. Collins is not and will not be a long term option, barring injury. The only other options on the roster won't be considered either. Advocating that a coach with his job on the line turn to late round/undrafted QB's with zero experience in the NFL is not reasonable.

Campbell is the only option on the roster with any chance of winning for a full season this year. Advocating for Collins, Brennan, or Daniel is like advocating that the team start Mike Williams at right tackle because you don't think Heyer is good enough. You could be correct about the starter not being great, but that doesn't make the backup a better option.

[RayNAustin]

In relation to the first 8 games last year, it was on CP's shoulders, nto JCs. When CP and the Oline got dinged up, JC faltered...

And I am POSITIVE you (RayN and others) have heard the explanation. I, like many others, would like to see what JC has in the same offense for more than 1 year, which is this year. To see if he has a year to get familiar with it so he doesn't have to 'think' about what's going on. When yo're learning something as complex as an offensive scheme, I believe it takes more than a week. In JC's case, seeing as him NEVER being comfortable in a scheme, I would like to give him this second year in the scheme to see if he can do it.

You would be correct ... but there's something important that you're leaving out. He's no longer a rookie. This is his FIFTH .. 5th year, 4th as a starter. Compare that to countless other QB's who have surpassed him.

Based on what I saw of Cutler today, it looks like he won't need two years to figure out the Bears system. Matt Ryan didn't have two years. Rothlesburger, Flacco ... Pennington .... none of them seemed to have trouble playing in the first year.

If Campbell scored a point for every excuse made for Campbell not scoring one, he'd break Brady's 2007 scoring record. I'm just say'n.

Hmmm...if I'm referring to him in last year's games, I don't think I'm leaving out he's not a rook.

I'm glad Cutler, who was garnering somewhere around two 1st round picks, can pick up an offense quickly. I would hope that would be the case.

I'm not apologizing for JC, but what alternatives do we have. Collins noodle arm will not be sufficient. He is worse than immobile and he will not be able to stretch the field. I don't want to go throw Colt/Chase out there b/c I really don't think they're ready (I think Colt could have a decent season, but I haven't seen enough of Chase to get a warm and fuzzy). BUT we have no other alternative currently.

The alternative is simple. You make a change before you dig a hole too deep to climb out of.

Last year, the final 8 games were pathetic, and the 2-6 finish would have been 1-7 had the defense not crushed Philly. In any case, I don't see how it could be much worse than that, regardless of who you plug in at QB. Furthermore, the hot start at 6-2 was due in large measure to Portis and the defense, not Campbell, as so often repeated. Campbell played horribly in the opener against NY (a game we could have easily won with competent production on offense). Campbell played well for the next three games (the only three game stretch he's ever played well in) but it went down hill from there, and got progressively worse. And Campbell's poor play didn't start because of the injuries, it started before that. At least one game, Portis ran for more yards than Campbell threw for, and he came close to that on one or two other games too. Campbell's difficulties were simply amplified when Portis could no longer carry the team single handedly.

This really is kicking a dead horse. Most now recognize what I've been saying since mid 2007 ... Campbell isn't the answer, and given the unlikely scenario of him even being a Redskin next year, the time to explore alternatives is now.... not after another season is hopelessly lost.

I know the current mantra now .. "Campbell ain't that great, but he's the best option at the moment". I disagree. Evidence shows that Collins is IN FACT more productive when he plays. That was the case in 2007, which is the ONLY evidence available. Since then, he hasn't been given a single opportunity to even compete with the first team, so HOW CAN ANYONE be so sure he wouldn't outplay Campbell now, just like he did in 2007.

The absolute unwillingness to even consider a change is what I find irrational and exasperating.

You know, I watch a lot of sports reviews. Watch a lot of games. Read a lot of commentary, and I cannot find a single example of QB excuse making like I see regarding Campbell. You NEVER HEAR anything about "systems" when discussing other QB's in the league. In fact, Romo switched "systems in 2007 and excelled. Matt Ryan performed great as a rookie, as did some others. Pennington went to Miami and was very productive right out of the blocks last year. And so far, Sanchez seems to be doing quite nicely in camp as a rookie. So this idea that it takes two and three years in one system before you should expect production from your QB, and especially a veteran QB is apparently a Washington Redskin phenomenon.

Time for less talk (excuses) and more action (results).

Have we been watching the same team? Collins had a lot of trouble grasping the offense last season, much more so than Campbell. It wasn't even close last offseason. The interception that Collins threw when trying to complete a pass over the middle shows the problem for Collins - the "noodle arm" referred to earlier. He can look okay in a preseason game against backups or for a short period in relief during the season. Give an opponent game tape of him playing and they'll take away the underneath stuff. Put Collins head on Campbells arm, and perhaps you have something. Collins is not and will not be a long term option, barring injury. The only other options on the roster won't be considered either. Advocating that a coach with his job on the line turn to late round/undrafted QB's with zero experience in the NFL is not reasonable.

Campbell is the only option on the roster with any chance of winning for a full season this year. Advocating for Collins, Brennan, or Daniel is like advocating that the team start Mike Williams at right tackle because you don't think Heyer is good enough. You could be correct about the starter not being great, but that doesn't make the backup a better option.

I guess we haven't been. But Collins didn't play with the first team, so there is no direct comparison as there was no competition for starting QB position in 2008. What I do recall, however, is that statistically, Campbell was in 3rd place when comparing preseason QB numbers, with both Brennan and Collins statistically better than Campbell.

I'm not suggesting anything, or making this up. It's just a fact. One can argue the quality of competition regarding 1st teamers and second and third string and speculate, but there is no rational basis for your statement that Campbell was clearly superior when the number say otherwise.

And, I'd remind you that Campbell played extra snaps in the 3rd preseason game in a failed attempt to develop some rhythm and momentum. He stunk the joint out, and they pulled him so as not to destroy whatever confidence might still remain. He followed that less than stellar preseason with an equally stinky performance on opening day.

What team were you watching?

[RayNAustin]

Just a follow up: 2008 Preseason QB stats:

Brennan 36 of 53, 411 yards, 67.9 %, 3 TD 0 int rating 109.9

Collins 33 of 47, 260 yards, 70.2 %, 1 TD 1 int rating 81.9

Campbell 23 of 39, 202 yards, 59.0 %, 1 TD 1 int rating 70.7

Now, Campbell's 2009 preseason stats thus far are

4 of 13, 30.8 yards, 30.8 % rating 43.1

He's firmly in 3rd place statistically among the 4 QB's at the moment.

Not that Campbell's preseason stats mean all that much, except when you have a long standing record of inconsistency, you're playing for you life and your job, and EVERYONE keeps talking about how much improvement you've made in the offseason. Then it tends to mean something.

No?

[SkinsJock]

No! That is all you and I are seeing - we are not seeing what the coaches are seeing and they have a much better idea of who will be the best option at QB

[SnyderSucks]

Just a follow up: 2008 Preseason QB stats:

Brennan 36 of 53, 411 yards, 67.9 %, 3 TD 0 int rating 109.9

Collins 33 of 47, 260 yards, 70.2 %, 1 TD 1 int rating 81.9

Campbell 23 of 39, 202 yards, 59.0 %, 1 TD 1 int rating 70.7

Now, Campbell's 2009 preseason stats thus far are

4 of 13, 30.8 yards, 30.8 % rating 43.1

He's firmly in 3rd place statistically among the 4 QB's at the moment.

Not that Campbell's preseason stats mean all that much, except when you have a long standing record of inconsistency, you're playing for you life and your job, and EVERYONE keeps talking about how much improvement you've made in the offseason. Then it tends to mean something.

No?

No. 13 passes aren't enough to judge compared to hundreds so far in practice. I did a post on another thread that analyzed each called pass play from the last game. It's clear if you look beyond the numbers that other factors influence performance. In 9 called pass plays, Campbell had 2 completions (1 nullified by penalty to Samuels), and a six yard scramble. Two of the incompletions were thrown into the ground intentionally because the defense had the play shut down. The incompletion to Davis was because Davis ran the route improperly, not Campbell. So that's 6 good plays. The two long balls should be 50% completion, so give Campbell one bad play there. The incompletion to Moss was all Cambell, so another bad play there. On 9 passing plays, Campbell made the right decision and executed it 6 times, while only failing to execute twice. He also failed to have any balls interecepted because he has the equivalent armstrenth of wet pasta, as Collins did.

If you put Collins in for those same plays, the results would have been even worse. Collins could not even attempt the two deep balls. The two intentionally grounded would have still be grounded. The six yard scramble would have been a sack. The incompletion to Davis would have still been incomplete and might have been picked due to a slower delivery. The ball to Moss is likely to have been completed, but might have been picked also. With Collins, you might have gotten 2-7 with a sack and one or two picks. With Campbell, you got 1-7 with a scramble and no TO's, and a drive that should have been a TD if the fullback blocked properly.

If you want to use statistics, that is fine, but you have to have a large enough sample size for statistics to mean anything. A sample size of 7, 9 or 13 is statistically insignificant when you are talking about a season where the QB will make several hundred throws. I can show you stats of Danny Wuerrfel from the preseason that make him look like the second coming of Joe Montana.