Dallas and other's in the NFC East

[SkinsJock]

I am hoping for the best too Pulp - I just think that we are looking at another disapointing season - anything can happen, "any given Sunday" but we should be a lot better than we are

I'm not as anti as some here want to make it seem - I'm just not going to make apologies for the guys in charge is all.

[SkinsFreak]

Instead of constantly accusing others of putting words in your mouth or taking what you said out of context, perhaps you should re-evaluate the manor in which you articulate your thoughts. I took what you said in the same manor Pulp did. Because "all over the coaches" doesn't imply a tea party comprised of pleasant suggestions.

your "constant" use of hyperbole is actually amusing to me, must mean something

Ah yes... can't address the actual post, so let's try the misdirection tactic. If there's anything amusing around here, it's your projection and failure to address points directed at you specifically.
Well done.

[SnyderSucks]

In terms of who would be better that was available. Last season would have been the logical time to make the switch, so I'll include people from last season. The Parcells crew (who I think were hired before Gibbs quit), the GM in Atlanta, and Scott Pioli would all have been clear upgrades. In terms of the current team, I think the best option could be to hire Holmgren as GM and keep Zorn as coach. Holmgren knows the offense better than Zorn and could help acquire the proper players. I think this has almost no chance of happening because if the team does well, Snyder won't fire Cerrato, and if they do poorly he probably won't keep Zorn.

The reason the team hasn't won recently is largely due to a lack of depth. Last year was the perfect example - the team was competitive until there were injuries. I think the drop off from the starters to the backups is larger for Washington than for many other teams.

I have become more optimistic as training camp has progressed that Cerrato is making better decisions than have been made in the past. It sounds like several members of both last years draft and this years draft are looking very good in practice. Hopefully this translates to the season!

I'm not sure I agree with Holmgren. He had full control in Seattle and the personnel moves haven't been anything to get excited about. I'm going to take a wait and see approach with Pioli. To date, there has yet to be a single person to leave the Belichick camp to have any level of success. While I believe Atlanta is on the right path, there's only one year to evaluate and who knows it there success will continue. I do like what they've done and I believe they deserve it, however. You can certainly look back in time, with the luxury of hindsight, and determine someone might have been a better move at the time. There are also plenty of examples of better managed teams. I concede that. But I was referring to going forward and who's available that could guarantee all this success that some contend.

I agree Holmgren didn't wasn't perfect as GM in Seattle. Thinking he would do better if he only had one role instead of GM and Coach, and because of his intimate knowledge of the offense. I have wanted them to hire Pioli for several years. Dmittroff in Atlanta came from New England, so it's not like he was unknown either. In terms of who to hire going forward, Bobby Beathard would be good if he still wants to work. I don't like any of the other retread coaches out there now as a G.M., and I think that Shanahan is the only one who still has that burning desire to win. I think coaches tend to lose some of their drive after they've won a super bowl.

I think whoever the candidate would be, they have to be proven enough to stand up to Snyder, even with Cerrato still trying to get his job back and stab him in the back. I'm fairly sure that's what happened with Schottenheimer - he got rid of Cerrato, then Cerrato spent the whole season whispering to Snyder about the mistakes Schottenheimer made in the personnell department.

We'll see the results soon, and I am becoming more optimistic that Cerrato is improving.

[Deadskins]

Basically, we don't have a big chance at success here because while we continue to try and make our team better each year, and we do teams with better management do not just try and make their teams better, they look at making their teams better than the other teams they are competing with. We cannot get to that level by doing it this way.

What does this mean? I know I'm stupid, but can you please explain this to me in more detail, and maybe provide a few examples? I mean, this makes zero sense to me right now.

This is something SJ has advanced on the board before. The basic idea is this: yes, our team is better than last year's on paper, with improvements at many positions and players with more experience at others.

However, almost every team in the league has improved itself from last year. So the question isn't who has improved or gotten worse in absolute terms. The question is: how much have we improved compared to, e.g., the Giants or the Cowboys? Will it be enough to actually secure those next couple of wins, or have we actually gotten worse, comparitively speaking?

I just don't see how this is true. I mean, we definitely addressed one of our two weaknesses (defensive line) over the last offseason, and lost no player of consequence. The Eagles lost their two starting tackles from last year (replaced with a guy who wasn't good enough to be with the Bengals, and a guy who while has been great in the past, had a horrible year last year for the Bills), lost their defensive coordinator, lost their defensive captain & heart and soul of their team (Dawkins), and just lost their middle linebacker.

The Giants added some mediocre players on their defensive line, but lost their top 2 WRs and their second runningback...and haven't replaced them with players that are likely to contribute this season.

The Cowboys lost their top WR, their #2 sacker from last season, and their starting DE (Canty), and signed Olshanksy to replace Canty (which is a wash).

So...we add the best DT in the league, Haynesworth, the best passrushing 4-3 end in the draft (Orakpo), and replaced Kendall with Dockery (which is likely a wash). And did not lose a player of consequence.

And yet...we've improved less than the other teams in this division, each of which has had a significant loss (or losses)? I just don't get it. I know Redskins fans love to be pessimistic, but come on. The facts just don't bear out the idea that we've improved less than other teams in this division.

I also don't think it's true that all teams continue to improve themselves. If that were true, there would never have been a Detroit of 2008 and NE would be the best team of all time.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Bitch and cry I am passed that I realize that on this site it's all about redskins love. I am tired of the ridiculous notion that you have when you say I am bitchin let alone whinning.

So, your freedom to criticize fan's viewpoints doesn't come with our right to criticize your criticism. Sure, dude, only you have the right to express or challenge views. Got it. Ignoring it, but I got it.

[KazooSkinsFan]

almost every team in the league has improved itself from last year

I also don't think it's true that all teams continue to improve themselves. If that were true, there would never have been a Detroit of 2008 and NE would be the best team of all time.

I interpreted his quote completely differently then you.

First, he said "almost all" and you said "all."

Second, during the season teams have injuries and identify weaknesses and address them in the offseason. Your youngsters have more experience, everyone works on their game and recovers from nagging injuries, you get some young guys in the draft often at positions of weakness. So when you go to camp almost everyone unless they had major losses to retirement or free agency is "improved." Now when you go through pre-season and into the season you have more injuries and identify more weaknesses and some of your draft picks aren't that good or your FA signings who were supposed to be answers weren't and some of those unravel your season.

So, Detroit falling apart or Brady going down in the first game don't contradict his point if I understood it right.

[wooly34]

I see the Redskins as the last place team in the NFC East. There is no way that the roster of the Redskins is even close to the others. The coaching staff is subpar at best, the front office is subpar period. There is no way that the Redskins finish any better than 5-11 thought at first 6-10. But I just watched Dallas run and pass all over the Titans, again, I realize it's preseason, but the skins can't stop either team. Can we say Shannahan, but then again, Snyder/Cerrato is the problem not the coaching staff. Been a fan for thirty years

I have been a fan for a longer period. I became a fan as a kid with Lombardi before George Allen.

I understand your frustration. In fact, I understand the frustration among an increasing group of fans. I share your frustration and disappointment but a bit of perspective is necessary.

Coaching staff

The first point I do not share with you is that our coaching staff is subpar. I feel that there is a good number of very good and experienced coaches in our roster. It is true that Zorn became a head coach almost an accident of the circumstance. But the guy may turn up to become a very good choice. The rest of the staff is very good. That Defense is better than those of many other teams.

Roster

Which leads me to discuss the roster. I do not know what you see in the roster of other teams but our defense is solid. It is ONE unit in the team that kept us in competition the first part of the season last year. Surely, the defense needed help at DL and we might have missed a really good LB but for the most part it did a very good job.

The offense weak but there are a few players in that offense whom I would not trade for any others in the NFL. They are fantastic and a joy t watch. Clinton Portis alone is probably one of the top two RBs that plays with the greatest amount of heart and skill among most RBs in Skins history. And I go OVER 30 years as a fan.


The problem

The problem, as I see it, is NOT that our coaching staff is weak or our roster does not have SOME great players. The problem is that there are sufficient deficiencies in this team at key positions which results in a MEDIOCRE record season after season. These deficiencies are not probably too many but enough to stop them from reaching the top two spots in the NFC East and probably miss the playoffs again.

I am more optimistic than you about our potential record this season. I have predicted yet another MEDIOCRE season at 8-8 with a plus/minus game either way. This result would not be a disaster. It would be simply another mediocre season.

Front Office

There is another point in which we disagree. You claim that the Front Office is "subpar". It is not subpar. The Front Office of this Team is an embarrassment to the fans and the NFL as a whole. It is the one part of the Team directly responsibly for delivering mediocre results. It is embarrassing in its MEDIOCRITY.
Good post very well thought out and thorough
Read my signature.

[SkinsJock]

I just think that almost anyone could come in here and do better

WHO?

YOU!

[wooly34]

I see the Redskins as the last place team in the NFC East. There is no way that the roster of the Redskins is even close to the others. The coaching staff is subpar at best, the front office is subpar period. There is no way that the Redskins finish any better than 5-11 thought at first 6-10. But I just watched Dallas run and pass all over the Titans, again, I realize it's preseason, but the skins can't stop either team. Can we say Shannahan, but then again, Snyder/Cerrato is the problem not the coaching staff. Been a fan for thirty years

I agree with most of the posts, I am having a hard time believing that the skins will do better than 3-3 in their division. Their best division record (last six years) was 5-1 in 2005? and the division wasn't as strong that year many injuries to Eagles (McNabb), Cowboys (no qb), and Giants were O.K. So how do we think they will do this year??????
I want them to win every year, but there is a difference between turning a blind eye to reality and rooting for them to win every game knowing that in reality they might struggle in most. All of those that have followed the skins for 20 years or more know that there were games that skins fans knew that they would win, now not so much....

[jeremyroyce]

[quote="wooly34"]I see the Redskins as the last place team in the NFC East. There is no way that the roster of the Redskins is even close to the others. The coaching staff is subpar at best, the front office is subpar period. There is no way that the Redskins finish any better than 5-11 thought at first 6-10. But I just watched Dallas run and pass all over the Titans, again, I realize it's preseason, but the skins can't stop either team. Can we say Shannahan, but then again, Snyder/Cerrato is the problem not the coaching staff. Been a fan for thirty years[/quote

Dude, did you just sign up so you can complain? We have ONLY played one preseason and you are already saying we are going to be last in our division?

[wooly34]

I see the Redskins as the last place team in the NFC East. There is no way that the roster of the Redskins is even close to the others. The coaching staff is subpar at best, the front office is subpar period. There is no way that the Redskins finish any better than 5-11 thought at first 6-10. But I just watched Dallas run and pass all over the Titans, again, I realize it's preseason, but the skins can't stop either team. Can we say Shannahan, but then again, Snyder/Cerrato is the problem not the coaching staff. Been a fan for thirty years[/quote

Dude, did you just sign up so you can complain? We have ONLY played one preseason and you are already saying we are going to be last in our division?

I know that we have played only one game, but I continue to see the same pattern that has occurred for the past 6 years. Good to above average defense and poor offense. I believe that the skins are the only team to be shut out thus far....What fun is it to be a fan that blindly roots for a team and believes that everything is going to be alright even if his/her team is 0-16? Even Steelers fans have doubts and concerns and they've won two SB's in the last four years...Relax if you can't complain to fellow fans then who can you complain to???? Because of my proximity to D.C.(Chicago area) I have had the ticket for the last ten years and I set aside three and half hours a day once a week to watch the skins, and when they lose or do not live up to expectations it's frustrating.

[SkinsJock]

I'm sorry wooly, but coming to the conclusion that we are not going to be competitive after 1 pre-season 'game' is not being fair to those players who are trying to make each team in the NFL - many coaches 'look' at players differently and will use the early pre-season games to get some idea of who they want to keep on their team - the most important outcome from these games is to not have anybody get injured and to learn more about your players and the team - the result or the score means absolutely nothing - what we all saw last year doesn't mean anything this year

some teams never blitz and some like to see what happens when a team has a particular down and distance - the Patrriots actually used a 4-3 defense the other night - these are just practices against other teams and the scoring or the win gets you nothing if you do not benefit from seeing what progress players are making - that is all

if we do not look effective against the giants, 3 weeks from tomorrow, then you can start to feel the pain but until then we need to hope that the coaches here can find 53 guys in the next 3 games that give this team the best chance to win some games.

[Redskin in Canada]

RiC,

You say the coaching staff is good, and the roster is very solid on defense, and there are some players you love on offense. Then you go ahead and say the front office is an embarrassment.

How do you reconcile all of that? Wasn't the FO responsible for getting those players and coaches?

Pulp,

These are fair and honest questions which I feel compelled to address. Notwithstanding the personal criticisms that always appear to filter through these types of discussions among the members, this time I suspect we have an opportunity to communicate and understand effectively one another.

Yes, I feel that the coaching staff is good and Zorn MIGHT be a good choice even if it is by accident. We have a solid defense and it has improved over last year. And I do love some of our players on offense.

But ALL of these points are mute if you consider the results based on the record over the last decade. It does not matter that the coaching staff is good. It does not matter that the defense is good. It does not matter if some players on offense are remarkable. What matters is that the result has been poor.

The main reason for this mediocrity can be explained due to deficiencies at key positions. The BALANCE of the team is mediocre in the NFL. It has been consistently medocre overall.

There is lack of vison, plan and structure under the assumption that we are only a player or two from being contenders for a championship. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Deficiencies at key positions is only one issue. Lack of depth is even more scary.

I would be more willing to give the FO the benefit of the doubt if they had inhereted this team. But this is not the case for good, bad and the resulting mediocre balance, this team is what it record shows and that unfortunately is not very encouraging.

The OL issues should have been addressed YEARS ago. The QB issue should have been addressed YEARS ago. The WR issues should have been sorted out YEARS ago. It is naive to assign blame for these deficiencies on the unavailability of players in FA or the Draft this year.


In today's NFL, Front Offices compete even more strongly than teams do on the field. I would argue that the Front Office work is even more important than the work on the field simply because the work of the Front Office should give the Skins the tools to become at least competitive on the field and hopefully win a championship eventually.

But I have said it before and I must be repeated here. I have made a prediction and I am ready to accept that I was wrong if the result is any different than another mediocre season. So far, Deadskins is the only poster who has picked up the challenge. I can put my pride on the line and I can accept that I was wrong. Is anybody else willing to take my challenge?

Just asking ...

[PulpExposure]

The OL issues should have been addressed YEARS ago. The QB issue should have been addressed YEARS ago. The WR issues should have been sorted out YEARS ago. It is naive to assign blame for these deficiencies on the unavailability of players in FA or the Draft this year.

The QB position was addressed years ago; they drafted Jason Campbell. He should have developed more by now. The WR position was addressed two years ago in the draft; yes, Kelly and Thomas didn't show much last year, but most WRs have no success in their first year. As for the OL, it was a shock to see how bad they were last year. No one would have guessed that Jansen would have deteriorated so badly last season.

But I have said it before and I must be repeated here. I have made a prediction and I am ready to accept that I was wrong if the result is any different than another mediocre season. So far, Deadskins is the only poster who has picked up the challenge. I can put my pride on the line and I can accept that I was wrong. Is anybody else willing to take my challenge?

No, because it's a sucker's bet. This is the most competitive division in the NFL, and we're in year 2 of Zorn. Zorn put in an entirely new offense, that's completely different...and needs time to implement the system and get the proper players to fit in it. Look at every other team in the NFC East; they all have had their systems and coaches in place longer than the Redskins, and all 3 have pro-bowl quarterbacks who have had serious success in their respective offenses. Of course those teams will be more successful this year. An 8-8 mark would be just fine by me.

And the recent FO moves show that they don't think they're 1 or 2 players away any more. Look at the moves on the defensive line; they drafted Orakpo and Jarmon, clearly to be the DEs of the future...and got Haynesworth to be a dominant DT for at least the next 4 years. They drafted Barnes to replace Smoot...and perhaps replace Rogers if he leaves.

They didn't mortgage the future for a washed up QB (and while I don't like Cutler, he certainly doesn't qualify as washed up), a WR like Anquan Boldin, or a veteran OT, after all. All moves which may have been done in the past, and would indicate they thought they were only 1 player away.

[Deadskins]

almost every team in the league has improved itself from last year

I also don't think it's true that all teams continue to improve themselves. If that were true, there would never have been a Detroit of 2008 and NE would be the best team of all time.

I interpreted his quote completely differently then you.

First, he said "almost all" and you said "all."

Second, during the season teams have injuries and identify weaknesses and address them in the offseason. Your youngsters have more experience, everyone works on their game and recovers from nagging injuries, you get some young guys in the draft often at positions of weakness. So when you go to camp almost everyone unless they had major losses to retirement or free agency is "improved." Now when you go through pre-season and into the season you have more injuries and identify more weaknesses and some of your draft picks aren't that good or your FA signings who were supposed to be answers weren't and some of those unravel your season.

So, Detroit falling apart or Brady going down in the first game don't contradict his point if I understood it right.

Sorry Kaz, but you've been gone all summer. I was responding to more posts than the one I quoted above. I understand every team tries to improve, and through the recovery of injured players, FA aquisitions, and draft picks, they do improve, but teams also lose FAs or trade away guys, bring in new coaches, and have great players retire. I don't think the Broncos improved this year. More specifically, it was in reference to the NFC East. SkinsJock* has advanced the idea in the past that, while the Skins got better this past off-season, the Pies, Smeagols, and G-strings got even better. I just don't see it.

[Deadskins]

So far, Deadskins is the only poster who has picked up the challenge. I can put my pride on the line and I can accept that I was wrong. Is anybody else willing to take my challenge?

No, because it's a sucker's bet.

Are you saying I'm a sucker?


And RiC has already hedged his bet by taking the mediocrity blame off The Danny and Vinny, when he said:

Big question marks on both OL and QB positions on whose answers stand the record of next season.

http://thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php? ... ht=#458759

[screwgun]

I see the Redskins as the last place team in the NFC East. There is no way that the roster of the Redskins is even close to the others. The coaching staff is subpar at best, the front office is subpar period. There is no way that the Redskins finish any better than 5-11 thought at first 6-10. But I just watched Dallas run and pass all over the Titans, again, I realize it's preseason, but the skins can't stop either team. Can we say Shannahan, but then again, Snyder/Cerrato is the problem not the coaching staff. Been a fan for thirty years

I hear ya and feel ya I've been a fan since 1969

[Redskin in Canada]

So far, Deadskins is the only poster who has picked up the challenge. I can put my pride on the line and I can accept that I was wrong. Is anybody else willing to take my challenge?

No, because it's a sucker's bet.

Are you saying I'm a sucker?


And RiC has already hedged his bet by taking the mediocrity blame off The Danny and Vinny, when he said:

Big question marks on both OL and QB positions on whose answers stand the record of next season.

http://thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php? ... ht=#458759

Let us make it CLEAR. The ultimate responsibility for the record throughout the ownership of Dan Snyder stands on his shoulders alone. From season to season, we can blame or hold responsible certain players or coaches on the field but there is no mistake that the overall result, including the status of the QB and OL at present, which are some of the biggest reasons for concern this season, play a crucial role on the record of this season. The bet stands as far as I am concerned. And I will concede that I was wrong if you win. I have known you long enough to expect you to honour the bet as well if the result does not go your way.

The bet stands as far as I am concerned unless you want a way out now and you concede that you were wrong and you are now on our side of the argument.

[Deadskins]

So far, Deadskins is the only poster who has picked up the challenge. I can put my pride on the line and I can accept that I was wrong. Is anybody else willing to take my challenge?

No, because it's a sucker's bet.

Are you saying I'm a sucker?


And RiC has already hedged his bet by taking the mediocrity blame off The Danny and Vinny, when he said:

Big question marks on both OL and QB positions on whose answers stand the record of next season.

http://thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php? ... ht=#458759

Let us make it CLEAR. The ultimate responsibility for the record throughout the ownership of Dan Snyder stands on his shoulders alone. From season to season, we can blame or hold responsible certain players or coaches on the field but there is no mistake that the overall result, including the status of the QB and OL at present, which are some of the biggest reasons for concern this season, play a crucial role on the record of this season. The bet stands as far as I am concerned. And I will concede that I was wrong if you win. I have known you long enough to expect you to honour the bet as well if the result does not go your way.

The bet stands as far as I am concerned unless you want a way out now and you concede that you were wrong and you are now on our side of the argument.

No, I'm still in. Just razzing you a bit because of your seemingly inconsistent stance. You know, it's The Danny's fault, unless it's someone else's.

[Redskin in Canada]

The QB position was addressed years ago; they drafted Jason Campbell. He should have developed more by now. The WR position was addressed two years ago in the draft; yes, Kelly and Thomas didn't show much last year, but most WRs have no success in their first year. As for the OL, it was a shock to see how bad they were last year. No one would have guessed that Jansen would have deteriorated so badly last season.

There is ALWAYS a reason, isn't there? I can tell the story for each and every one of the seasons over the past decade. Brunnell was not the right one. George was a disaster. We can go on forever trying to justify or explain as to why this team has never been complete and balanced.

But THIS is is the reason why we need a great Front Office to formulate a plan of recruitment with vision for the Team to peak and reach a Superbowl. Everybody can select a good player here and a good player there. Every team has some great players in the NFL. The DIFFERENCE between the great teams and the middle of the pack is to have ideally not only the best players at key positions, QB for example, but balance and depth throughout.

You say correctly that AH was a good signing at a position of need. What you have failed no mention isthat the day he may fall to injury, and he isknown to fall to injuries, there is nowhere need any quality depth at that position.

If an analogy to a car race could be made, it does not matter if a car has a great engine if the pilot or the tires or the suspension are unbalaced in such a manner as to take away any advantage that the engine alonecan give you to race competitively. It is not about the single hirings, some of which may be VERY good. It is about the overall balance of the team.

For every promise you make about some players coming along and develop in the future, I can provide you with a list of great players who are at the end of their careers or have been finished who need replacement and the new players taking their positions will have great difficulties to match them at their peak of their careers.

Take Jon Jansen and Clinton Portis. One is done and the other one has a couple of seasons left if the rate of injuries continue due to the fact that he carries a considrrable part of the offense. Great players need to be replaced by potential great players in development. The policy of this team is well known in the NFL as "top heavy" a few well paid starters but no depth.

The challenge to the Skins is NOT, as I understand it, to put entertainment into the fans or even be only competitive in the Conference. The objective is to win championships. The objective is to coordinate a policy of player acquisition that shows vision not for one season but for as long as a decade.

I have no doubt that Dan Snyder and Vinny will keep on adding one good player here and another one there. I have no doubt that the fans have been excited and will get excited about the promise of those acquisitions. But there is a HUGE distance between adding a few pieces and having a real plan to put in place a great chart with a BALANCED roster of 53 players.

No, because it's a sucker's bet. This is the most competitive division in the NFL, and we're in year 2 of Zorn. Zorn put in an entirely new offense, that's completely different...and needs time to implement the system and get the proper players to fit in it. Look at every other team in the NFC East; they all have had their systems and coaches in place longer than the Redskins, and all 3 have pro-bowl quarterbacks who have had serious success in their respective offenses. Of course those teams will be more successful this year. An 8-8 mark would be just fine by me.

At least we agree on our expectations for this season and no another mediocre season is not fine with me. I am sick and tired of mediocre seasons.

I could respect a mediocre season as part of the evolution towards the establishment of a great franchise. Andthis is the substance of our difference: I do not see this year as any different than all the other ones. The changes needed at offense are so substantial that a single season and the following offseason will not take us to 2010 with a winner. New QB, new system for the new QB, new players in the OL, new WRs, etc. Possibly even a new head coach if this season really goes to the dogs.

They didn't mortgage the future for a washed up QB (and while I don't like Cutler, he certainly doesn't qualify as washed up), a WR like Anquan Boldin, or a veteran OT, after all. All moves which may have been done in the past, and would indicate they thought they were only 1 player away.

I beg to differ. And worse, I feel that if the conditions might have worked out, a new QB would have been here. Some of these decisions required such a pain that even a madman would not have chosen them. I agree. the FO is not mad. It is an embarrassmet in its mediocrity.

I only ask one favour from the posters here. I did not start this thread and the contents have been perhaps more constructive and informative than previous discussions. I thank you for that. But please note that, as I have predicted in the past, there is an increasing number of frustrated and disappointed fans who are losing or have lost any hope about the good performance of the current Front Office. While some of you may still disagree with us about their performance, I ask you very kindly to understand that these are long term loyal fans who love the team no less than any of you. Our pain is greater because we lost hope with Snyder and Cerrato. Every new season has become a chronicle of a well announced mediocre result and the sad thing is that we all see it coming.

Do not lash out at the messengers. We only carry our message which is not good news for the time being. Thanks.

[KazooSkinsFan]

SkinsJock* has advanced the idea in the past that, while the Skins got better this past off-season, the Pies, Smeagols, and G-strings got even better. I just don't see it.

I agree with you on that, Deadskins. I think our D got exactly what it needed to force O mistakes and create turnovers. Our only arguable loss was Springs who is a great cover corner, but he wasn't covering anyone standing on the sidelines for all of half the games and the second half of the rest. NE could be a great move for him since they are more in a position to not rely on him as we did. Maybe he'll hold up not playing every play. I don't see the O being worse then last year and if our aging O line holds up and your young WRs step up a little we could be a little better.

I'm not seeing how the others had a net gain at all. Vick is not just PR but the Philly fans will just turn on McNabb sooner then they do every other year. Clearly all three teams had net losses of players.

[KazooSkinsFan]

In today's NFL, Front Offices compete even more strongly than teams do on the field. I would argue that the Front Office work is even more important than the work on the field simply because the work of the Front Office should give the Skins the tools to become at least competitive on the field

Yes, I feel that the coaching staff is good and Zorn MIGHT be a good choice even if it is by accident. We have a solid defense and it has improved over last year. And I do love some of our players on offense.

I accept your challenge and as an expert witness call you. You pointed out the front office had done what you said they need to do and wrote off Zorn at least as an accident. What's the point in arguing that?

[Deadskins]

Our pain is greater because we lost hope with Snyder and Cerrato. Every new season has become a chronicle of a well announced mediocre result and the sad thing is that we all see it coming.

The fact that you "see it coming" should lessen the pain for you, not make it greater than those who have higher expectations.

[Redskin in Canada]

Our pain is greater because we lost hope with Snyder and Cerrato. Every new season has become a chronicle of a well announced mediocre result and the sad thing is that we all see it coming.

The fact that you "see it coming" should lessen the pain for you, not make it greater than those who have higher expectations.

Some will be disappointed because their high expectations were dashed. Others will be disappointed because their low expectations will be fulfilled. I argue that the second is worse but I would understand it if you argue otherwise. No problem.

[Redskin in Canada]

I accept your challenge and as an expert witness call you. You pointed out the front office had done what you said they need to do and wrote off Zorn at least as an accident. What's the point in arguing that?

Are you sure you understand what the challenge is? I am afraid we have differences of opinion about it. I do not want ta make this thread go on a path of miscommunication or personal attacks.

So that we are clear AGAIN, the challenge is that if the season results in another mediocre performance the Front Office DS/VC will be held accountable for our failures and become acknowledged as mediocre and unfit to lead this team. If the results are not mediocre, I will accept that the Front Office is on the right path to build a winner.

Please do not build an alternative argument on my behalf as usual. let us allow the record, the whole record, speak on the issue instead of launching accusations of eternal optimism or pessimism at one another.

Are you sure you are willing to accept -this- challenge?