brad7686 wrote:I'm talking about 4-7, also known as "second day" before they also moved round 3 to the second day.
Originally we were discussing 5-7, since the Skins did not have any 4th round picks this year. Then you opened it up to anything after the first round, and when I called you on it, you narrowed it down to 4-7 to fit your argument.
4-7 are the late rounds. If you want to talk 5-7, the Giants still win because if I count guys like Montgomery I have to count guys like David Tyree too. The point is that the giants draft better. If you weren't so caught up on semantics and just looked at their list compared to ours you would see that.
brad7686 wrote:I'm talking about 4-7, also known as "second day" before they also moved round 3 to the second day.
Originally we were discussing 5-7, since the Skins did not have any 4th round picks this year. Then you opened it up to anything after the first round, and when I called you on it, you narrowed it down to 4-7 to fit your argument.
4-7 are the late rounds. If you want to talk 5-7, the Giants still win because if I count guys like Montgomery I have to count guys like David Tyree too. The point is that the giants draft better. If you weren't so caught up on semantics and just looked at their list compared to ours you would see that.
I would still disagree with your assessment due to the averages point I made a couple of posts ago. They've had more picks, so they are bound to have more successes. We have had a better average success ratio over that timeframe. You just haven't proven your conclusion that the G-strings draft better.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.
brad7686 wrote:I'm talking about 4-7, also known as "second day" before they also moved round 3 to the second day.
Originally we were discussing 5-7, since the Skins did not have any 4th round picks this year. Then you opened it up to anything after the first round, and when I called you on it, you narrowed it down to 4-7 to fit your argument.
4-7 are the late rounds. If you want to talk 5-7, the Giants still win because if I count guys like Montgomery I have to count guys like David Tyree too. The point is that the giants draft better. If you weren't so caught up on semantics and just looked at their list compared to ours you would see that.
I would still disagree with your assessment due to the averages point I made a couple of posts ago. They've had more picks, so they are bound to have more successes. We have had a better average success ratio over that timeframe. You just haven't proven your conclusion that the G-strings draft better.
Picks does have something to do with it, I agree. However, if the Redskins are going to draft Cody Glenn every time, I want them to trade them all away.
Wow! You just can't get past this Cody Glenn pick, can you? Did he deflower your sister, or something? J/K, but I'm hoping he goes on to a HOF career, just to see your response. That's sure to rank up there with the Kiper-Tobin exchange.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.
Deadskins wrote:Wow! You just can't get past this Cody Glenn pick, can you? Did he deflower your sister, or something? J/K, but I'm hoping he goes on to a HOF career, just to see your response. That's sure to rank up there with the Kiper-Tobin exchange.
I have nothing personal against the guy, I did this when they took Dallas Sartz. Sartz was probably better than this guy though. I guess I've beaten this horse enough I just can't stand wasted draft picks.
No, I looked at just the 5th round because it took long enough just to evaluate those players alone. I ran out of time for the 6th and 7th. But your own post just reinforced my thoughts; you can point to one guy. One! It's like hitting the lottery.
It's definitely more than one. For example, Charlie Johnson (6th rounder in 06) started 16 games for the Colts last season. The Colts also have an undrafted player, Jeff Saturday, starting for them. The Patriots also have one 5th round player and one undrafted free agent as starters on their o-line.
Oh wow, you found a few. I guess the exception proves the rule.
PulpExposure wrote:But how can he say, so definitively, that they are better than Heyer? Heyer has at least played, and started, in the NFL. Right now, every NFL draft choice, is a guess on how they'll succeed...and that prediction gets more murky the later they get picked.
Exactly... and you can't. We know Brad likes to make loads of guarantess, but...
Heyer is a far better player than some are admitting or recognizing...
Heyer is a prime candidate to step in for Jansen. If not for the shoulder injury, he likely would have started all last season at right tackle. His versatility is a key--he can play both tackle spots if needed.
Stephon Heyer started five games in 2007 and seven last year, alternating at left and right tackle. In his third year, the former University of Maryland lineman could have a chance to cement a starting job. Heyer held perennial Pro Bowl defensive end Michael Strahan without a sack in a 22-10 win over the New York Giants (12/16).
It was thought Heyer accomplished that last year, when he opened the season as the starter at right tackle, but a shoulder injury sidelined him until midseason.
“Stephon can be as good as he wants to be,” Bugel said. “Randy Thomas and Chris Samuels have taken him under their wing and really worked him hard. His offseasons are critical because he grew up so fast as a young man he outgrew his body.
“Hopefully he can go through a season without having injuries. That’s the thing he hasn’t been able to conquer. Hopefully the third year is the charm for him because he has a great amount of talent.”
Coaches are high on Devin Clark, a promising young tackle. He seems poised to compete for a backup job in 2009.
One game against Strahan CLEARLY proves how great Heyer is. It's a travesty that he didn't make the Pro Bowl last year, what with how well our oline protected JC. But it's ok, we have 450 pound Mike Williams coming to the rescue.
Don't laugh. Williams can play both OG & OT at the same time
Skins fan since '55
"The constitution is not a suicide pact"- Abraham Lincoln
HEROHAMO wrote:Why did we draft a tight end? Why did we not take at least the best tackle left on there talent board? Yes many of us question the moves.
Maybe because they aren't planning to play him as a TE? Maybe they thought he has a better chance of contributing this year than an OT that was rated further down their board at the time of the pick. I'm pretty sure they didn't just forget that we need OL help, and took a TE just because Jason likes to dump off short passes to ey.
Thats your argument? Because maybe they plan on playing him at a different position? Your maybe is not a definate.
Oh and once again you take part of my post and ignore the rest. The bottom half of my post addressed the top half of my post.
I pointed out that all though I question the moves. I am happy that at least they are sticking with a strategy now. Which is better then giving away draft picks. Oh and signing old free agents. But, once again you like to take part of peoples post and ignore the rest. So no use even going into depth. You will do the same thing again.
Oh and I will question this front office any time I please!They have proven to be one of the worst in NFL history. Even Al Davis in the past ten years has been to an AFC Championship game and a Super Bowl. How many has Danny and Vinny brought us. That is right zero.
HEROHAMO wrote:Why did we draft a tight end? Why did we not take at least the best tackle left on there talent board? Yes many of us question the moves.
Maybe because they aren't planning to play him as a TE? Maybe they thought he has a better chance of contributing this year than an OT that was rated further down their board at the time of the pick. I'm pretty sure they didn't just forget that we need OL help, and took a TE just because Jason likes to dump off short passes to ey.
Thats your argument? Because maybe they plan on playing him at a different position? Your maybe is not a definate.
Oh and once again you take part of my post and ignore the rest. The bottom half of my post addressed the top half of my post.
I pointed out that all though I question the moves. I am happy that at least they are sticking with a strategy now. Which is better then giving away draft picks. Oh and signing old free agents. But, once again you like to take part of peoples post and ignore the rest. So no use even going into depth. You will do the same thing again.
Oh and I will question this front office any time I please!They have proven to be one of the worst in NFL history. Even Al Davis in the past ten years has been to an AFC Championship game and a Super Bowl. How many has Danny and Vinny brought us. That is right zero.
I was only answering the one question that I quoted, I was not ignoring the rest of your post. And it was a rhetorical "maybe," not a literal one. The TE is projected to be used in a FB/H-back role. In fact, the Redskins' website lists him as a FB, not a TE.
EDDIE WILLIAMS, FB, IDAHO
In the seventh round, with the 221st overall selection, the Redskins drafted fullback Eddie Williams out of Idaho.
Williams, 6-1 and 239 pounds, played tight end, fullback and H-back in his college career.
As a senior last year, Williams grabbed 54 passes for 687 yards and six touchdowns to earn the team’s 2008 Most Valuable Player honor. He earned first-team All-Western Athletic Conference for his efforts.
Williams suffered a knee ligament injury in mid-November, sidelining him for the remainder of the season. He underwent surgery to repair the ligament.
Executive vice president of football operations Vinny Cerrato said he expected Williams would be ready for the start of training camp.
“He’s running and cutting,” Cerrato said. “If he had not been hurt, he would have been a third round pick.”
In four years at Idaho, Williams posted 100 receptions for 1,205 yards and 11 touchdowns. He also had 19 carries for 195 yards and three touchdowns.
Williams is regarded as a player with hard-nosed, high energy player.
Several draft sites listed him as a late-round sleeper prospect, in part due to the fact that he was a versatile performer at the college level.
HEROHAMO wrote:Oh and I will question this front office any time I please!They have proven to be one of the worst in NFL history.
Really? You seriously made that statement. You're putting this FO up with the Detroit Lions of this age, who clearly have one of the worst organizations (and FOs) in NFL history? We're that bad in your mind?
If our FO is Lions-bad, I really wonder how we're getting .500 records, and making the playoffs 2 of the past 4 years? We're just tremendously lucky?
No one is saying this FO is a great FO, because clearly it's not. It's also clearly not an awful FO. This FO is exactly what the record shows. Average.
C'mon Pulp, they didn't take an OT in the 7th round, but rather grabbed a FB who actually might have a chance of making the team. I don't know how they could get much worse.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.
As many of you know I'm as down on how we have "managed" things here recently as anyone but I'm still hopeful and have not lost complete faith.
I was seriously concerned that we were going to give up 2 x #1 picks and we didn't - that is a good thing, imo
I thought we needed (and am still concerned about our) offensive linemen and I'm sure there will be some of our "positive" posters here who will at some later time point to all the future great offensive linemen that we did not select during this draft. Hindsight is 20/20 and the draft is really a crap shoot each year.
I think we will have a very good defense and who knows maybe a lot of things will go a lot better than many of us expect offensively .... hopefully
In my opinion we are not going to be a very good team but I do not think we will be too bad either and next year we will hopefully have all of our picks and can rebuild this offense through some FA acquisitions and the draft.
The offensive line situation is not as dire as some here make it out to be but it is an area we are going to have to really change in the next year.
I also hope that unless Zorn shows that he is not capable, he is kept on here next year - even if we go 7-9 - IF Zorn does a good job then he should be retained but with this group I think it is going to be hard to resist the coaches that will be available - most of whom will not be interested in winning as much as they will want some of Snyder's money.
that is the problem with the group that are running things - in the past they have never given anything or anyone a decent chance to get things right here.
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
Hindsight is 20/20 and the draft is really a crap shoot each year.
It's really not as much of a crap shoot as people make it out to be. It's not a coincidence that teams like the Colts, Steelers, and Pats are able to find value in the middle and late rounds. For example, the Steelers Super Bowl winning defense had 7 starters on it that were drafted in the 4th round or later, or were undrafted free agents. Obviously teams aren't going to hit on every pick, but certain teams are known for their scouting ability (Ravens, Pats, Giants, etc.) and it shows in the picks that they make and the success that the have in the draft. Or take the Colts, for example. Every single one of their offensive starters were either drafted by the team or signed as undrafted free agents by the Colts. You don't get 11 starters from the draft by being lucky.
CanesSkins26 wrote:Obviously teams aren't going to hit on every pick, but certain teams are known for their scouting ability (Ravens, Pats, Giants, etc.) and it shows in the picks that they make and the success that the have in the draft.
Like in 2007, when the Pats had 9 draft choices and a whole 2 made their roster, right?
Or take the Colts, for example. Every single one of their offensive starters were either drafted by the team or signed as undrafted free agents by the Colts. You don't get 11 starters from the draft by being lucky.
Of course, having a franchise, hall-of-fame QB who makes everyone better around him, helps a little bit with that, too.
I am not saying that - I have often said that a team made up of players taken after the top 2 rounds would, in my opinion be a better team
To your point - there are teams that are much better than others at scouting college talent. Okay! So why do those teams not select that talent at higher draft picks and why do they let someone they think has a chance to make it in the NFL be an undrafted free agent?
all I'm saying is that the draft is a bit of a crap shoot and there are too many examples of players who do not make great NFL players coming out of the top 2 rounds - obviously some teams get it but it is also interesting that NE for example will do everything they can to trade out of the top 2 rounds just to get into a lower round OR use a bunch of those lower rounds to go and get someone they think is a "steal" during the draft - we do not do a good job here of managing that because we have not had good NFL guys running things AND the college scouts we employ have not been as effective imo.
It is also hard to be very "good" at the NFL draft when you don't have many picks to use - I could be wrong but I think New England went into this draft with 13 picks and already has 3 #2 picks in next year's draft
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
Like in 2007, when the Pats had 9 draft choices and a whole 2 made their roster, right?
That's one example from one draft class. I would also point out that when is as good as the 2007 Colts were, it's going to be difficult for any player drafted to make the team. You can point to 2007, but I'll point to the Pats 2003 draft in which they drafted Asante Samuel in the 4th round and Dan Koppen in the 5th round. Both Pro Bowl players. When was the last time that we found a Pro-Bowl caliber player in either the 4th or 5th round? It's been a loooooooong time since we've been able to do that.
Like in 2007, when the Pats had 9 draft choices and a whole 2 made their roster, right?
That's one example from one draft class. I would also point out that when is as good as the 2007 Colts were, it's going to be difficult for any player drafted to make the team. You can point to 2007, but I'll point to the Pats 2003 draft in which they drafted Asante Samuel in the 4th round and Dan Koppen in the 5th round. Both Pro Bowl players. When was the last time that we found a Pro-Bowl caliber player in either the 4th or 5th round? It's been a loooooooong time since we've been able to do that.
But this example only proves how much of a crap shoot it is. Do you think they would have been drafted in those rounds if they knew that they were Pro-Bowl caliber players? I don't think Tom Brady would have made it to the sixth round if anyone had any idea of his future success.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.
Like in 2007, when the Pats had 9 draft choices and a whole 2 made their roster, right?
That's one example from one draft class. I would also point out that when is as good as the 2007 Colts were, it's going to be difficult for any player drafted to make the team. You can point to 2007, but I'll point to the Pats 2003 draft in which they drafted Asante Samuel in the 4th round and Dan Koppen in the 5th round. Both Pro Bowl players. When was the last time that we found a Pro-Bowl caliber player in either the 4th or 5th round? It's been a loooooooong time since we've been able to do that.
But this example only proves how much of a crap shoot it is. Do you think they would have been drafted in those rounds if they knew that they were Pro-Bowl caliber players? I don't think Tom Brady would have made it to the sixth round if anyone had any idea of his future success.
Exactly. He made your point for you lol.
And here's an article talking about how the myth of the Patriots as a "good drafting" team is not really all that true.
Bill Belichick's Patriots come off as a great drafting team. In part, it's because they're so eager to trade picks -- sometimes to stockpile for future years, and sometimes to move up three spots to get just the guy he wants. In part, it's because they drafted Tom Brady in the sixth round. In part, it's because so many of their first-round picks -- Jerod Mayo, Brandon Meriweather, Logan Mankins, Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren, Daniel Graham, Richard Seymour -- have turned into solid NFL players, if not Pro Bowl-caliber players. If you avoid big-time busts in the first round, after all, you normally do OK as a franchise. No one hits a home run with every fourth-round pick he makes.
But a closer look at the last few years reveals that the Patriots have not, in fact, had much success in the draft. In fact, one of the reasons the team found itself so shorthanded last season was because so few of its draftees have panned out.
HEROHAMO wrote:Oh and I will question this front office any time I please!They have proven to be one of the worst in NFL history.
Really? You seriously made that statement. You're putting this FO up with the Detroit Lions of this age, who clearly have one of the worst organizations (and FOs) in NFL history? We're that bad in your mind?
If our FO is Lions-bad, I really wonder how we're getting .500 records, and making the playoffs 2 of the past 4 years? We're just tremendously lucky?
No one is saying this FO is a great FO, because clearly it's not. It's also clearly not an awful FO. This FO is exactly what the record shows. Average.
Let me say that as of the past two years. The front office has been showing much improvement. Throw out the Jason Taylor deal and I would say they have been pretty darn good. As of late. It is improvement over the past ten years.
The first ten years can be considered one of the worst FOs. I think this case could be argued easily. Yes even as bad as the Lions. It is not like the Lions made bad deals. This FO continuously have made bad deals that made no sense to anyone other then Snyder. How many overaged veterans have the Redskins overpaid? If you compare that to the Lions I think we would blow them away.
Go ahead Pulp and do some in depth comparison with a non biast view. You will find that this FO in the past ten years has been below average. In terms of drafting and signing free agents. The amount of wasted money given to players.
Now dont get me wrong I am not all negative now. I am very happy with the progress this FO is showing. But, there past dictates that they still have to be watched with a close eye. This off season has been great. I liked last off season too.
HEROHAMO wrote:You will find that this FO in the past ten years has been below average. In terms of drafting and signing free agents. The amount of wasted money given to players.
That is fine to say, and I'd agree with it. That's not what you originally posted. You posted that the Redskins FO was "one of the worst in NFL history."
Which is freaking ridiculous. Below average for this time is not anywhere close to "one of the worst in NFL history."
HEROHAMO wrote:Oh and I will question this front office any time I please!They have proven to be one of the worst in NFL history.
Really? You seriously made that statement. You're putting this FO up with the Detroit Lions of this age, who clearly have one of the worst organizations (and FOs) in NFL history? We're that bad in your mind?
If our FO is Lions-bad, I really wonder how we're getting .500 records, and making the playoffs 2 of the past 4 years? We're just tremendously lucky?
No one is saying this FO is a great FO, because clearly it's not. It's also clearly not an awful FO. This FO is exactly what the record shows. Average.
Let me say that as of the past two years. The front office has been showing much improvement. Throw out the Jason Taylor deal and I would say they have been pretty darn good. As of late. It is improvement over the past ten years.
The first ten years can be considered one of the worst FOs. I think this case could be argued easily. Yes even as bad as the Lions. It is not like the Lions made bad deals. This FO continuously have made bad deals that made no sense to anyone other then Snyder. How many overaged veterans have the Redskins overpaid? If you compare that to the Lions I think we would blow them away.
Go ahead Pulp and do some in depth comparison with a non biast view. You will find that this FO in the past ten years has been below average. In terms of drafting and signing free agents. The amount of wasted money given to players.
Now dont get me wrong I am not all negative now. I am very happy with the progress this FO is showing. But, there past dictates that they still have to be watched with a close eye. This off season has been great. I liked last off season too.
This front office has only been in place for 10 years. The shift came around 3-5 years ago, mostly coinciding with Gibbs coming back, but Marty's one year in charge was pretty solid as well. The exception was tossing Larry Centers out the door. I don't know what he was thinking on that one.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.
This front office has actually only been in place for a little over a year. Vinny Cerrato was named GM and a huge shift took place.
Gibbs was the de facto GM, before it was pretty much Spurrier, then Marty before him.
"Guess [Ryan Kerrigan] really does have a good motor. And is relentless. And never quits on a play. And just keeps coming. And probably eats Wheaties and drinks Apple Pie smoothies and shaves with Valvoline." -Dan Steinberg DC Sports Bog
Wahoo McDaniels wrote:I guess we plan on playing this season without a Right Tackle.
Yes, that's right. They're going to leave that spot open. On the right side, they'll go with a center, a guard, an open space, and then a TE split wide. Since Portis is such a good blocker, they figured he could just plug the hole. They'll also cut Jansen, ditch Williams, trade Heyer, cut the half dozen other OL depth players on the roster, not look at any undrafted rookies and ignore all other potential cuts or free agents from around the league.
Pretty prescient there, SF.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.
Very funny!!
ey. 
