Smoking around children

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:00 pm

Do you let friends or relatives smoke around your children? I am fighting a battle where my parents are smokers and they think it is ok to smoke and then handle my child. I, for one, do not want anyone smoking around my child and further more I do not want for my child to see that it is ok to smoke. I also do not want my parents to hold him after they were outside smoking and then come in to try and hold him. The toxins still get trapped in their clothes and they don't seem to undertanfd or just ignore the fact. If he watches his grandparents smoke then he learns addiction from a very young age. It is something I have dealt with my whole life and I am not going to put my child through that. In nature, there is an action and an equal and opposite reaction. They choose to smoke so I choose not to come around. There is a pretty simple solution to the problem.......Stop smoking. So, how do you feel about anyone smoking around your child?

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:30 pm

The negative effects from 2nd (and especially "3rd") hand smoking are overstated. I have a child and more than one relative who smokes. I don't want anyone holding my child while smoking, and I don't want anyone offering my child something to smoke. However, refusing grandpa because he just came in from smoking, or asking people not to smoke when we are outside (or never to smoke under any circumstance around my child) is in my opinion overbearing, prudish, and uninformed.

It's like the parents who pretend alcohol doesn't exist in hopes that their kids won't drink. Many kids backfire and go nuts in high school or college because they never saw what a healthy relationship with alcohol looks like. So, pretending that smoking doesn't exist isn't a good strategy, IMO.

And it is OK to smoke, by the way. Not sure when it became a universal law that smoking is always bad for anyone, in any circumstance, period. People have plenty of unhealthy habits, and in some cases that's fine, because extending your life for as long as possible shouldn't always be the highest priority. (For example, I'd rather eat steak and live to be 75 than not if it guaranteed me another 10 years. But that's just my preference.)

A doctor can tell you how to live longer, but as a doctor he can't tell you whether your life is worth living. My 2 cents

And the same goes for smoking. I enjoy cigarettes every now and then, as well as the occasional cigar. That doesn't make me "bad", it's just a choice that I'm making as a responsible human being. Kids need to learn that as adults they will have to make many choices for themselves—and smoking is one of them.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:06 pm

Look I smoke the occasional cigar but smoking IS always bad and unhealthy. If someone doesn't want relatives smoking around their child because of second hand smoke their wishes ought to be respected.

I don't agree about toxins trapped in clothes and whatnot but it's perfectly reasonable to want to protect your child from second hand smoke. (Which is well documented as being dangerous.)

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:07 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:The negative effects from 2nd (and especially "3rd") hand smoking are overstated. I have a child and more than one relative who smokes. I don't want anyone holding my child while smoking, and I don't want anyone offering my child something to smoke. However, refusing grandpa because he just came in from smoking, or asking people not to smoke when we are outside (or never to smoke under any circumstance around my child) is in my opinion overbearing, prudish, and uninformed.

It's like the parents who pretend alcohol doesn't exist in hopes that their kids won't drink. Many kids backfire and go nuts in high school or college because they never saw what a healthy relationship with alcohol looks like. So, pretending that smoking doesn't exist isn't a good strategy, IMO.

And it is OK to smoke, by the way. Not sure when it became a universal law that smoking is always bad for anyone, in any circumstance, period. People have plenty of unhealthy habits, and in some cases that's fine, because extending your life for as long as possible shouldn't always be the highest priority. (For example, I'd rather eat steak and live to be 75 than not if it guaranteed me another 10 years. But that's just my preference.)

A doctor can tell you how to live longer, but as a doctor he can't tell you whether your life is worth living.

And the same goes for smoking. I enjoy cigarettes every now and then, as well as the occasional cigar. That doesn't make me "bad", it's just a choice that I'm making as a responsible human being. Kids need to learn that as adults they will have to make many choices for themselves—and smoking is one of them.

The negative effects from 2nd and 3rd hand smoke are on point in my opinion. Its just that many people choose to ignore the fact that smoking is very dangerous to children....especially infants. I think its rude and down right irresponsible for anyone who is smoking around my baby or who wants to hold him right after smoking. Cigarette smokers are very inconsiderate when it comes to their addiction. If my parents cannot go three hours without having to smoke, they can go without holding their grandchild. Its not my actions that are causing me to make that decision. And that goes for any family member or friend.

The dangers of smoking are real. I know I cannot control any one persons actions, but I do get to make that decision for my infant. I don't plan on pretending that drugs don't exist as that is not my intention. I can minimize how much contact he has with someone who smokes especially with friends and family members. The straw that broke the camels back was when my child had an irritated trachea that the doctor diagnosed as coming from him being around someone who was smoking or had smoked. That was the first question he asked when we saw him. My child's health is MUCH more important than not hurting someone's feelings. Smoking is much more than being unhealthy for infants/babies, it is life threatening. Ever heard of SIDS? I am going to do everything in my power to eliminate that possibility.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/03/healt ... smoke.html

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 122808.php

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=wha ... hand-smoke

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3476743.stm

http://www.lungusa.org/site/c.dvLUK9O0E ... _Sheet.htm

http://www.chantixhome.com/passive_smoking_effects.html

thedcnative · Post by **thedcnative** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:12 pm

I'm going to make this simple:
NO, NO, AND NO!

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:13 pm

Capster, while I agree that smoking around children is not acceptable, I have to wonder why you feel that punishing your parents for their addiction (and, have no doubt, it is an addiction) is at all helpful.

Your approach seems rather cruel and vindictive.

Lighten up.

No smoking in the house. No smoking in the presence of the kids. That's plenty...

I don't smoke, haven't for years, but I think this punitive and, frankly, tyranical treatment of smokers is a load of crap. Illegal aliens and felons are less stigmatized than they are.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:30 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:Look I smoke the occasional cigar but smoking IS always bad and unhealthy.

It may be unhealthy but this is far from showing that it is bad, and even less so always bad. That kind of snap-judgment intolerance bugs me.

Moderation in all things, my friend. . .

I don't agree about toxins trapped in clothes and whatnot but it's perfectly reasonable to want to protect your child from second hand smoke. (Which is well documented as being dangerous.)

I'd be interested in seeing the study which shows that grandma smoking cigarettes outside during a backyard bbq harms The Children. As I understand it the real 2nd-hand smoke studies focus on much different conditions.

(By the way, are you aware of the studies regarding how lung tissue gets replaced as it relates to age, etc.? It definitely informs this conversation.)

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:47 pm

Countertrey wrote:Capster, while I agree that smoking around children is not acceptable, I have to wonder why you feel that punishing your parents for their addiction (and, have no doubt, it is an addiction) is at all helpful.

Your approach seems rather cruel and vindictive.

Lighten up.

No smoking in the house. No smoking in the presence of the kids. That's plenty...

I don't smoke, haven't for years, but I think this punitive and, frankly, tyranical treatment of smokers is a load of crap. Illegal aliens and felons are less stigmatized than they are.

I respectfully disagree. I believe in the consequences of third hand smoke, therefore, if you smoke outside, you must change your clothes and wash your hands when you come in . The easiest solution is to not smoke at all while I am visiting. Its not that difficult (or maybe it is). Either way, I am not punishing anyone. I have rules regarding my child and when they aren't respected, the whole action > reaction thing happens. I do have personal reasons as to why I am the way that I am. The first place I learned addiction is from watching my parents having to smoke every 15 minutes. I've struggled with some addicitons in my lifetime and when I tried to stop, I had to look at my parents puffing down all day and all night which made it harder to struggle with. Two, I had a birth defect as a child that caused a tumor to grow around my ear (loss of hearing followed) and I believe that, because my mom smoked while she was pregnant with me, well, lets just say that didn't help. I've dealt with it for 27 years and now I have a little one to think about above everything else.

Needless to say, I don't take smoking lightly. If a smoker chooses to smoke, they choose the consequences. Sorry....thats just the way it is. I am not saying that there isn't a time and place for smoking. When I go to a bar, I expect to be around smokers. OK, I can deal with that, but I do not have my baby who can die from inhaling 2nd hand smoke with me. I don't need that crap when I am visiting my family. Nothing is that important, especially something that isn't a necessity to live that you have to do it every 15 minutes. I am also concerned about my parents health. Their lungs have to look like a piece of charcoal by now and I am trying to help them salvage what is left of their health. The one thing I do know is that nothing will be at the expense of my baby boy.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:25 am

My first question would be, "Smoking what?"

Seriously, though. So long as it's outside, the secondhand smoke effect is negated to the point of being a nonfactor. I use Copenhagen, but I don't spit on kids...and it kinda pisses me off when I get looks from people like I'm ruining their brood.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:19 am

tcwest10 wrote:My first question would be, "Smoking what?"
Seriously, though. So long as it's outside, the secondhand smoke effect is negated to the point of being a nonfactor. I use Copenhagen, but I don't spit on kids...and it kinda pisses me off when I get looks from people like I'm ruining their brood.

Smoking outside does not negate the harmful effects of secondhand smoke. The putrid exhaust that is spewed out of a smokers mouth and/or the smoke from a burning cigarette always seems to find a way to a non-smoker. It happens to me all of the time and I really can't stand it. Breathing in smoke is breathing in smoke no matter if it is indoors or outdoors.

You can dip all you want to. That isn't necessarily affecting everyone in a 20ft radius around you that I know of. Just do us all a favor and don't dump your spit in the parking lot. Its really disgusting and I don't want to step in it.

Second Hand Smoke and Children

Children who live with a smoker are essentially passive smokers. They are forced to breathe second-hand smoke in their own homes and in the family car if there are smokers around them. Research has shown that smoking outside does not decrease any of the risks associated with passive inhalation. Second hand smoke releases the same 4,000 chemicals as smoke that is directly inhaled, but in even greater quantity! Approximately 47 of these chemicals (carcinogens) cause cancer.

Let’s take a closer look at why there is a greater quantity inhaled with second hand smoke versus the smoker themselves.

1. Cigarettes burn for approximately 12 minutes, but smokers usually only inhale for 30 seconds. This means that, for 11.5 minutes, cigarettes are spewing second hand (side stream) smoke into the air for those around to breathe.
2. Because side stream smoke burns at a lower temperature than inhaled smoke, it contains:
* 2 times more tar, which gums up lungs and the breathing passage
* 5 times more carbon monoxide, which reduces the amount of oxygen in the blood

http://www.matrixlaserclinics.com/children.html

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:03 am

It is not intolerance to recognize that breathing in smoke is always unhealthy and therefore bad. At least when you're smoking you have a choice about doing that to yourself (and it's okay occasionally) but second hand smoke takes that choice away. Here in Colorado they passed smoking bans inside bars and restaurants and it's great. You can go out to a bar without your clothes reeking of smoke afterward, you can eat breakfast without having to shower again when you get home, you can go into a place of business without having to walk through a cloud of smoke.

(Though nearly all of my college friends smoked and they got free sandwiches from the cafeteria just for abiding by the "15 foot rule" I found that to be irritating.)

Smokers are unfairly persecuted at times but you have to understand that your bad habit shouldn't become my bad habit. I'm glad about these smoking bans, and the increased anti-smoking education because more and more I think younger people are turning away from smoking and we may see a serious decline in tobacco use in the future.

langleyparkjoe · Post by **langleyparkjoe** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:09 am

I smoke and i'll tell you how I handle that. First of all I never smoke in front of a building's entrance/exit. I always walk away at least 15 feet and I usually stand where pedestrians don't come. For example I'll go stand in the grass rather than on the sidewalk where people do walk on it. Secondly I always make a concious (sp) effort to blow smoke in the totally opposite direction from where people are. Heck, even when I'm not smoking I can't stand when people blow smoke in my path, it really stinks. Lastly, I get real annoyed with other smokers when they don't make a friggin effort not to discomfort other people.

To sum it up I obviously chose no, its not ok. As for your situation, I never smoke if I'm going to be around my child or any children for that matter. I don't smoke in the car while going there either and I always go to the bathroom to wash my hands, its always a good idea to do that regardless, ESPECIALLY when handling children. I'm a father like alot of you here and just me, I can only speak for me.. I'd put my foot down and say look, this is your grandchild.. if you care about your grandchild, make a life changing decision because accepting my child gets sick as a result of you smoking is NOT an option. :evil:

vwoodzpusha · Post by **vwoodzpusha** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:32 am

I think anyone who chooses to smoke in front of, in the same room or car with their children is selfish. The child doesn’t have a choice to inhale your smoke. I am a smoker and when my son was born, I stopped smoking in my cars and my house. I only smoke at work and if I go out to the bar. When I get home from work I take a shower and change clothes. If I do occasionally smoke when I am at home, I wash my hands right after. I always respect people right to not be exposed to second hand smoke. I am 28 years old and my mom STILL wont let me smoke when I come to her house. Even if it outside. I respect her choice.

Because your parents smoke it doesn’t mean your child will. My parents NEVER smoked and HATED smoking, and I still picked it up, but my sister didn’t. I have plenty of friends whose entire family smoked and they don’t.

I think that all the smoking bans, increased taxes are a load of crap. If there is such a high demand for bars that don’t allow smoking then why doesn’t someone open one? It’s going from one extreme to another. Why can’t some bars allow smoking and then some don’t. That way you are catering to everyone. I understand the ban of smoking in restaurants because those can be “family environments.” Smoking is bad for you and I admit that, and these politicians say these high taxes are a way to get people to quit. Ok fine. Why don’t they raise taxes fast food, candy, sodas and everything else that is “unhealthy” you? Granted these don’t pose a risk to other people but that doesn’t make it any less harmful to you.

At the end of the day it is your choice what you expose your children to. If you don’t feel safe having your children around smokers that is your choice and if your parents don’t respect then there is nothing you can do about it.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:52 am

langleyparkjoe wrote:I smoke and i'll tell you how I handle that. First of all I never smoke in front of a building's entrance/exit. I always walk away at least 15 feet and I usually stand where pedestrians don't come. For example I'll go stand in the grass rather than on the sidewalk where people do walk on it. Secondly I always make a concious (sp) effort to blow smoke in the totally opposite direction from where people are. Heck, even when I'm not smoking I can't stand when people blow smoke in my path, it really stinks. Lastly, I get real annoyed with other smokers when they don't make a friggin effort not to discomfort other people.

To sum it up I obviously chose no, its not ok. As for your situation, I never smoke if I'm going to be around my child or any children for that matter. I don't smoke in the car while going there either and I always go to the bathroom to wash my hands, its always a good idea to do that regardless, ESPECIALLY when handling children. I'm a father like alot of you here and just me, I can only speak for me.. I'd put my foot down and say look, this is your grandchild.. if you care about your grandchild, make a life changing decision because accepting my child gets sick as a result of you smoking is NOT an option.

Thank you for being considerate of nonsmokers.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:03 am

Skinsfan55 wrote:It is not intolerance to recognize that breathing in smoke is always unhealthy and therefore bad.

Yes it is. I'm questioning that logic, and so far you've only asserted to the contrary. There are many things we all do which are unhealthy but are not bad. Eating red meat, for example. (And lots of other foods that are unhealthy.) Or drinking enough to get buzzed. Or having 2-3 cups of coffee in the morning. Or carrying more weight on the body than one really needs. There is nothing "bad" with these things in themselves even though they are all unhealthy.

I'm not saying you can't have your own ideas about what's good and bad. The difference between tolerance and intolerance isn't so much what's in your mind as how you act in relation to other people. And you clearly support lots of penal action against innocent parties based on this preference.

What do you call it when someone makes a moral judgment based on a preference, and then forces that judgment on everyone else—many of whom do not share that same preference?

Colorado they passed smoking bans inside bars and restaurants and it's great.

Smokers are unfairly persecuted at times but you have to understand that your bad habit shouldn't become my bad habit. I'm glad about these smoking bans, and the increased anti-smoking education because more and more I think younger people are turning away from smoking and we may see a serious decline in tobacco use in the future.

People don't smoke solely because they lack education. The public is saturated with knowledge about smoke and its harmful effects. But some people choose to smoke because they like it. And that's really none of your business to be meddling with.

Something told me you'd be the kind of guy who likes the smoking bans. . .let me guess: you're in favor of even higher taxes on tobacco, too, right?

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:31 am

Both of my children have asthma, and our families are full of smokers. We do not allow them to smoke in the car, house or even outside if the kids are with them.

The family is very cooperative with this and do what they can to keep the smoke away.

That being said, the smoke gets into their clothing and hair and on their skin. We had 20 people over for Easter and two of them smoke. Both of them are favorite relatives of my daughter. After a weekend of interaction, my daughter ended up in the emergency room because her breathing had become labored and the Albutirol via nebulizer was only helping for an hour or two.

Coincidentily, both of these relatives are trying to give up the habit for various reasons currently.

You can pressure them to quit, use their respective battles to quit as teaching tools with your children and hopefully some good will come out of it. That being said, family is important, and its not good for you, your parents or your children to keep them apart.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:02 am

JansenFan wrote:Both of my children have asthma, and our families are full of smokers. We do not allow them to smoke in the car, house or even outside if the kids are with them.

The family is very cooperative with this and do what they can to keep the smoke away.

That being said, the smoke gets into their clothing and hair and on their skin. We had 20 people over for Easter and two of them smoke. Both of them are favorite relatives of my daughter. After a weekend of interaction, my daughter ended up in the emergency room because her breathing had become labored and the Albutirol via nebulizer was only helping for an hour or two.

Coincidentily, both of these relatives are trying to give up the habit for various reasons currently.

You can pressure them to quit, use their respective battles to quit as teaching tools with your children and hopefully some good will come out of it. That being said, family is important, and its not good for you, your parents or your children to keep them apart.

I agree that it isn't good to keep my child away from his grandparents. It is the actions of the grandparents that force me to make the tough decision that negatively impacts ours and their relationship. It is up to me, the parent, to decide what is best for my child and when my requests aren't respected, I am left with no choice. When we were up there for Easter, my mother didn't smoke, but I cannot trust her not to smoke if I am not around. My dad will do as he pleases so again, I have to make the decision that will keep my child out of the hospital.

Bob 0119 · Post by **Bob 0119** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:46 am

Ultimately, it's your kid. None of us can tell you how to raise it.

It's obvious you've already taken your stance on things, and no one can convince you otherwise, so I'm a little confused as to why you started the topic in the first place.

I will say that I wouldn't rely on those studies as the gospel. Keep in mind that most studies are conducted to say what the people who are paying for them want them to say.

You are absolutely right that your kid will learn what is okay and not okay from you. You should keep in mind that teaching him that Grandma and Grandpa are bad people because they [insert objectional behavior here], he or she may just use that very same line of thought when they won't let you see your grandkids.

SkinsFreak · Post by **SkinsFreak** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:53 am

Irn-Bru wrote:The negative effects from 2nd (and especially "3rd") hand smoking are overstated. I have a child and more than one relative who smokes. I don't want anyone holding my child while smoking, and I don't want anyone offering my child something to smoke. However, refusing grandpa because he just came in from smoking, or asking people not to smoke when we are outside (or never to smoke under any circumstance around my child) is in my opinion overbearing, prudish, and uninformed.

It's like the parents who pretend alcohol doesn't exist in hopes that their kids won't drink. Many kids backfire and go nuts in high school or college because they never saw what a healthy relationship with alcohol looks like. So, pretending that smoking doesn't exist isn't a good strategy, IMO.

And it is OK to smoke, by the way. Not sure when it became a universal law that smoking is always bad for anyone, in any circumstance, period. People have plenty of unhealthy habits, and in some cases that's fine, because extending your life for as long as possible shouldn't always be the highest priority. (For example, I'd rather eat steak and live to be 75 than not if it guaranteed me another 10 years. But that's just my preference.)

A doctor can tell you how to live longer, but as a doctor he can't tell you whether your life is worth living.

And the same goes for smoking. I enjoy cigarettes every now and then, as well as the occasional cigar. That doesn't make me "bad", it's just a choice that I'm making as a responsible human being. Kids need to learn that as adults they will have to make many choices for themselves—and smoking is one of them.

I totally agree with this post. Well said, Irn-Bru.

Directly breathing 2nd hand smoke is one thing, but I'd also like to see a study about the "smell" of smoke on someone being harmful. If I'm at a bar talking to someone who's been drinking, am I being harmed from the alcohol I smell on his breathe? I doubt it.

My friends come over and smoke outside by my pool all the time. If I'm standing directly next to them and breathing in their smoke, I simply move away. I'm not going to tell these folks they can't smoke outside, just like I'm not going to tell my neighbor he can't drive his car by my house because of the dangerous fumes his car burns and emits.

I also don't stand in the garage with my car running with the garage door closed. If I'm sitting around a camp fire and the smoke gets in my face, I move to the other side. But being in a wide open space with a breeze blowing around, the cigarette smoke gets immediately dispersed most of the time.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:26 pm

A New Cigarette Hazard: ‘Third-Hand Smoke’

Article Tools Sponsored By
By RONI CARYN RABIN
Published: January 2, 2009

Parents who smoke often open a window or turn on a fan to clear the air for their children, but experts now have identified a related threat to children’s health that isn’t as easy to get rid of: third-hand smoke.

That’s the term being used to describe the invisible yet toxic brew of gases and particles clinging to smokers’ hair and clothing, not to mention cushions and carpeting, that lingers long after second-hand smoke has cleared from a room. The residue includes heavy metals, carcinogens and even radioactive materials that young children can get on their hands and ingest, especially if they’re crawling or playing on the floor.

Doctors from MassGeneral Hospital for Children in Boston coined the term “third-hand smoke” to describe these chemicals in a new study that focused on the risks they pose to infants and children. The study was published in this month’s issue of the journal Pediatrics.

“Everyone knows that second-hand smoke is bad, but they don’t know about this,” said Dr. Jonathan P. Winickoff, the lead author of the study and an assistant professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School.

“When their kids are out of the house, they might smoke. Or they smoke in the car. Or they strap the kid in the car seat in the back and crack the window and smoke, and they think it’s okay because the second-hand smoke isn’t getting to their kids,” Dr. Winickoff continued. “We needed a term to describe these tobacco toxins that aren’t visible.”

Third-hand smoke is what one smells when a smoker gets in an elevator after going outside for a cigarette, he said, or in a hotel room where people were smoking. “Your nose isn’t lying,” he said. “The stuff is so toxic that your brain is telling you: ’Get away.’”

The study reported on attitudes toward smoking in 1,500 households across the United States. It found that the vast majority of both smokers and nonsmokers were aware that second-hand smoke is harmful to children. Some 95 percent of nonsmokers and 84 percent of smokers agreed with the statement that “inhaling smoke from a parent’s cigarette can harm the health of infants and children.”

But far fewer of those surveyed were aware of the risks of third-hand smoke. Since the term is so new, the researchers asked people if they agreed with the statement that “breathing air in a room today where people smoked yesterday can harm the health of infants and children.” Only 65 percent of nonsmokers and 43 percent of smokers agreed with that statement, which researchers interpreted as acknowledgement of the risks of third-hand smoke.

The belief that second-hand smoke harms children’s health was not independently associated with strict smoking bans in homes and cars, the researchers found. On the other hand, the belief that third-hand smoke was harmful greatly increased the likelihood the respondent also would enforce a strict smoking ban at home, Dr. Winickoff said.

“That tells us we’re onto an important new health message here,” he said. “What we heard in focus group after focus group was, ‘I turn on the fan and the smoke disappears.’ It made us realize how many people think about second-hand smoke — they’re telling us they know it’s bad but they’ve figured out a way to do it.”

The data was collected in a national random-digit-dial telephone survey done between September and November 2005. The sample was weighted by race and gender, based on census information.

Dr. Philip Landrigan, a pediatrician who heads the Children’s Environmental Health Center at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York, said the phrase third-hand smoke is a brand-new term that has implications for behavior.

“The central message here is that simply closing the kitchen door to take a smoke is not protecting the kids from the effects of that smoke,” he said. “There are carcinogens in this third-hand smoke, and they are a cancer risk for anybody of any age who comes into contact with them.”

Among the substances in third-hand smoke are hydrogen cyanide, used in chemical weapons; butane, which is used in lighter fluid; toluene, found in paint thinners; arsenic; lead; carbon monoxide; and even polonium-210, the highly radioactive carcinogen that was used to murder former Russian spy Alexander V. Litvinenko in 2006. Eleven of the compounds are highly carcinogenic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/03/healt ... smoke.html

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:26 pm

JansenFan wrote:After a weekend of interaction, my daughter ended up in the emergency room because her breathing had become labored and the Albutirol via nebulizer was only helping for an hour or two. t.

I hope she grows out of it like I did.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:47 pm

Bob 0119 wrote:Ultimately, it's your kid. None of us can tell you how to raise it.

It's obvious you've already taken your stance on things, and no one can convince you otherwise, so I'm a little confused as to why you started the topic in the first place.

I will say that I wouldn't rely on those studies as the gospel. Keep in mind that most studies are conducted to say what the people who are paying for them want them to say.

You are absolutely right that your kid will learn what is okay and not okay from you. You should keep in mind that teaching him that Grandma and Grandpa are bad people because they [insert objectional behavior here], he or she may just use that very same line of thought when they won't let you see your grandkids.

I started this thread to find out what others thought about smoking around children not to see if my stance was ok with the public. I also don't believe that my parents are bad people and I am not going to teach my son that. They are just hooked on a drug that they will most likely cause them serious health issues. Smoking is the only major issue that I have with them, because it puts my child in a dangerous situation when he is exposed to it.

The studies I linked to make logical sense to me. If they didn't, I wouldn't have an issue with certain aspects of smoking. I am not going to pretend like the articles and studies have no credence to them.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:00 pm

Cappster wrote:The studies I linked to make logical sense to me. If they didn't, I wouldn't have an issue with certain aspects of smoking. I am not going to pretend like the articles and studies have no credence to them.

That's a false dilemma. Nobody disputes that there is nothing potentially toxic about '3rd-hand' smoke. Toxins are everywhere, dude. And in some cases, like in JF's case that he writes above, it is definitely something to act on.

But it's pretty obvious to me that the negative effects are in general overstated—just look at how little real, scientific substance is in the studies you linked to. The word "belief" was used more often than any word that indicates a real connection between long-term health and 3rd-hand smoke. And it only takes a little research to see that the conditions under which 2nd hand smoke is noticeably harmful in the long-run do not match the kinds of situations I've been talking about in this thread.

A little common sense can go a long way.

So it clearly doesn't come down to denying everything or accepting everything, no matter what. Nevertheless, if you would rather live in a world that's all black and white, with nothing grey in between, be my guest. . .

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:37 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
Cappster wrote:The studies I linked to make logical sense to me. If they didn't, I wouldn't have an issue with certain aspects of smoking. I am not going to pretend like the articles and studies have no credence to them.

That's a false dilemma. Nobody disputes that there is nothing potentially toxic about '3rd-hand' smoke. Toxins are everywhere, dude. And in some cases, like in JF's case that he writes above, it is definitely something to act on.

But it's pretty obvious to me that the negative effects are in general overstated—just look at how little real, scientific substance is in the studies you linked to. The word "belief" was used more often than any word that indicates a real connection between long-term health and 3rd-hand smoke. And it only takes a little research to see that the conditions under which 2nd hand smoke is noticeably harmful in the long-run do not match the kinds of situations I've been talking about in this thread.

A little common sense can go a long way.

So it clearly doesn't come down to denying everything or accepting everything, no matter what. Nevertheless, if you would rather live in a world that's all black and white, with nothing grey in between, be my guest. . .

Why would I want to chance having a situation such as JF's in my child that can be triggered by smoking? Infants are many more times susceptible to toxins in cigarettes than adults. They breath many more times a minutes than we due and they have a tendency to places things in their mouth. If you want to talk common sense then common sense tells me that anything that burns leaves behind residue. The toxins that were in the smoke don't just disappear. They were deposited in residual form. The point being that if you don't want your child to come into contact with second hand smoke, you don't want them to come into contact with the residue that is left over.

I am concerned about short and long term health effects stemming from toxins produced by smoke. The short term can develop into long term if one doesn't take caution.

I don't believe that the world is just black and white. If you knew me as a person, you would know that it is hard for me to answer a yes or no question. I know that there are many different variables involved with any situation. A person can take steps to eliminate variables that they can control to minimize the impact of variables that they cannot control.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:12 pm

Cappster wrote:If you want to talk common sense then common sense tells me that anything that burns leaves behind residue. The toxins that were in the smoke don't just disappear. They were deposited in residual form. The point being that if you don't want your child to come into contact with second hand smoke, you don't want them to come into contact with the residue that is left over.

I've already said that there are some forms of second-hand smoke that for most kids aren't harmful, and that I don't mind having around children. Unless there are extenuating circumstances, I fear 3rd hand smoke even less.

I am concerned about short and long term health effects stemming from toxins produced by smoke.

And I'm not? Of course I am. But I bet you don't put your kids in white body suits with gas masks if there is just 1 part toxin to 500 billion non-toxins in the air or on a surface. It's all about risk tolerance and relative exposure.

A person can take steps to eliminate variables that they can control to minimize the impact of variables that they cannot control.

I agree with this. Look, you gotta do what you gotta do. But if you start a thread eliciting opinions, you should probably expect that there are going to be different opinions out there. Some are going to take some elements from what you are saying without accepting all of them.

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