Jason Campbell and Carlos Rogers reached escalator clauses..

[PulpExposure]

Agreed on all accounts, cooter. Thanks for the insight.

The Big Ben comparison sounds right, though. Just to undust another memory of yore, I clearly remember that before the 1991 season, coaches asked Rypien to have more "fire in the belly", as you and other poster have pointed out. He delivered big time.

Didn't hurt to have that 1991 offensive line, either

IMO, here's the bottom line: this is his year. We've strengthened the line. 2nd year in JZ's scheme. Whether it's his fault, JZ's fault, as long as we don't have an offensive line breakdown like we did before, if he doesn't get it done, he gets going. I don't want to 'give him one more chance' all the way to retirement.

I agree, this is last chance year for him. However, while we have strengthened our offensive line, the Skins haven't fixed the glaring hole at RT. It HAS to get fixed; it was by far our weakest position on the line, and will remain that way if we don't pick up a new RT.

[MakeRomoCry]

If you look at the top QB's in the game, Brady, Manning, Warner etc. I think you'll notice several OBVIOUS differences from JC.

1. The Offensive line they play behind
2. The WR's they throw to
3. More than one season with their respective offensive systems

Now i agree, JC still has to prove he can play a whole season and I'm not labeling him as anything until I see him play another season. But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE) along with injuries to Portis, Kendall, Thomas, Jansen and Heyer when you grade JC's 2008 season. Another year with Zorn and possibly better luck with injuries (signing Haynesworth hasn't helped our main issues from 2008, O-line and depth) will give JC a chance to silence the critics. But there is no doubt he has skills. And I personally have doubt that we could find a better QB very easily. We would either have to give out another Haynesworth deal to a free agent QB or move up in the draft one year to select another unknown quantity rookie.

Stats aside, my issue is that his play hasn't improved much since he was named starter. When I think back, I don'tthink of "JC's been improving," it's more of the midset of he's been relatively static. I'm hoping that systems, aging line, ect ect is the problem and not him, but it's tough to make a case for one person with everyone around him is at fault and he goes free...

That has been my issue with this board. Members seek to blame everything and everyone else other than the on-field-person-in-charge -- the QB. I don't quite understand why -- because after a year or so with Spurrier, the fans ran Ramsey out of town. In the past 4 years, we have been to the playoffs twice --- neither a result of JC's play or leadership. It seems that whenever JC plays, we miss the playoffs and whenever he doesn't play, we make the playoffs.

I do hope that JC performs well next year, but I wouldn't count on it. He has NOT shown significant improvement year to year and other than this being his contract year, I don't see why he will improve. He actually got worse over last season --- and personally, I think that was because the offense went through him and not CP.

Your problem with this board is that some people blame everyone but the QB, yet adversely, you want to blame no one but the quarterback.

I can't speak for everyone that is an advocate of Campbell, but the point I was trying to make was that the offensive decline last year was a result of many factors from the coaching on down to the players. Campbell certainly could have played better down the stretch and it would be unfair to leave him out of the blame. I think most reasonable fans are in agreement that this year will decide not only the outcome of our QB, but many other things that will eventually determine the fate of this team. I only attempted to point out that he has been a solid QB despite a very tumultuous set of circumstances. Some would say that he hasn't improved vastly from year to year, but the fact is, he has improved. You would argue that there is no reason to think he will get better- and would even go so far as to say that he just suddenly forgot how to play. The play of the entire team suffered at the midway point last year and not just the QB. From what I've gathered here, the few JC supporters there are, at least are a little more objective and can admit that there's room for improvement. You however, seem to have more of a slanted view in that theres no way this kid could possibly improve.

Quick points:

- I wouldn't say "solid". I would put him as "mediocre". "Solid" in my mind means above average. If his play had been "solid", we would not be discussing this season as his make-or-break year.

You're splitting hairs here. Solid can be defined as 'sound, without special qualities'. In my mind, it means good but not great.

- I don't believe he has improved as a going on fifth year player. Generally a QB is given three years.

While he has been in the league for 4 seasons, he has started just over 2 seasons worth of games.

It is time for the fans of washington to take the training wheels off --- regardless of the excuses given for him.

As I said in my post, this year will determine the outcome of our QB among other things.

Also, I myself, would not say that he suddenly forgot how to play. Maybe you were just attempting to make me appear to be an idiot -- who knows, but that is a ludicrious statement.

Sorry, this is what you said...

He has NOT shown significant improvement year to year and other than this being his contract year, I don't see why he will improve. He actually got worse over last season

Ok, so you're not only saying that Jason hasn't improved, but you suggest that he has actually gotten worse. You also state that the only reason that he would get better this year, is purely because of money. THAT is a ludicrous statement.

- The "little" JC supporters, have to be appear "objective" because they need to find excuses for his poor play. I consider myself a very objective person. I do realize that there is problems on the O-Line, with our inept WRs, and coaching, but personally, I think that the thing that would best remody those issues (other than coaching) is starting with the QB. Besides, isn't that what the "experts" say is the first step in building a franchise?

Sure. Suppose we traded for Peyton Manning last year. According to you, having such a great QB would have made our line block better and our receivers magically catch better. While it's important to have a good field general, it's also imperative to surround him with good players. Football starts in the trenches.

- In terms of putting words in my mouth, I have no idea whether or not JC can improve.

Again, I will quote you.

He has NOT shown significant improvement year to year and other than this being his contract year, I don't see why he will improve.

Personally, I think that based on his past performances, starting with his first year here (or second, I guess), I have not seen significant improvement --- and I don't care about fumbles or the other stuff (and by the stats above, it only appears that the only other stat he significantly improved upon (other than fumbles) was pass attempts).

Wrong. He has improved in not only fumbles, but completion percentage, passer rating and touchdown to interception ratio. But I guess someone so objective as you, would have seen the improvement in overall play and might hold out some optimism for the future.
Wins are obviously the most important stat in football, but football is also a team sport. Too often the majority of the blame/praise gets put on the quarterback's head. Those of us who aren't so myopic can recognize that just as important are the players around the guy throwing the ball.

[VetSkinsFan]

Agreed on all accounts, cooter. Thanks for the insight.

The Big Ben comparison sounds right, though. Just to undust another memory of yore, I clearly remember that before the 1991 season, coaches asked Rypien to have more "fire in the belly", as you and other poster have pointed out. He delivered big time.

Didn't hurt to have that 1991 offensive line, either

IMO, here's the bottom line: this is his year. We've strengthened the line. 2nd year in JZ's scheme. Whether it's his fault, JZ's fault, as long as we don't have an offensive line breakdown like we did before, if he doesn't get it done, he gets going. I don't want to 'give him one more chance' all the way to retirement.

I agree, this is last chance year for him. However, while we have strengthened our offensive line, the Skins haven't fixed the glaring hole at RT. It HAS to get fixed; it was by far our weakest position on the line, and will remain that way if we don't pick up a new RT.

I'm going off of the assumption that we wil sign a competent RT that will have an immediate positive impact in comparison to last year's non-production @ RT.

[El Mexican]

To Pulp: yeah, that great O-line of 91 obviously was a tremendous factor that season.

My point was that Ryp was really good in 1989, irregular in 1990 and fantastic in 1991, with pretty much the same of group of starters in the O-line; the year he HAD to perform at a high level, the team achieved great success.

I`m not expecting a SB year from JC, but I think, as other posters have said, it is "put up or shut up time".

[RayNAustin]

If you look at the top QB's in the game, Brady, Manning, Warner etc. I think you'll notice several OBVIOUS differences from JC.

1. The Offensive line they play behind
2. The WR's they throw to
3. More than one season with their respective offensive systems

Now i agree, JC still has to prove he can play a whole season and I'm not labeling him as anything until I see him play another season. But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE) along with injuries to Portis, Kendall, Thomas, Jansen and Heyer when you grade JC's 2008 season. Another year with Zorn and possibly better luck with injuries (signing Haynesworth hasn't helped our main issues from 2008, O-line and depth) will give JC a chance to silence the critics. But there is no doubt he has skills. And I personally have doubt that we could find a better QB very easily. We would either have to give out another Haynesworth deal to a free agent QB or move up in the draft one year to select another unknown quantity rookie.

Stats aside, my issue is that his play hasn't improved much since he was named starter. When I think back, I don'tthink of "JC's been improving," it's more of the midset of he's been relatively static. I'm hoping that systems, aging line, ect ect is the problem and not him, but it's tough to make a case for one person with everyone around him is at fault and he goes free...

So his play last year before injuries didn't seem an improvement to you?

66% completions
8 TD, 0 INT
1754 yds.
90 QB RATING
6-2 record

Well okay then, we all have our differing opinions. I definitely saw an improved QB. In fact, even during training camp last year I remember telling friends that just seeing JC speak, he seemed a much more mature guy and at ease with his role as a team leader. But anyway, time will tell. I definitely expect to see more of what we saw during the first half of last season again in 2009.

Campbell's 66% completion rate only points to the very short, high percentage throws that are the focus of the WC offense. When you look at the bigger picture ... that being an offense with a RB leading the league and having 150 yard days, there should have been far more production than there was, points wise.

But since you place a great deal of importance on stats, let me "point out" a couple you haven't mentioned:

Jason Campbell was at the very mediocre numbers for completions of 20+ yards, and totally PATHETIC with only 3 40+ yard completions all season. When comparing, these stats are more closely aligned with QB's like Kyle Orton, Dan Orlovsky and Ryan Fitzpatrick, none of which anyone would confuse with being star QB's.

Additionally, you can't just continue to exclusively blame the O-Line for this. I would add that Rothelisberger was sacked 46 times and Cassel was sacked 47 times compared to Campbell's 38 last year. Were New England and Pittsburgh's o-lines giving them all that extra protection that poor Jason didn't get? Big Ben was also sacked 47 times in 2007, and 46 times in 2006. Do you ever hear " Oh poor Ben just doesn't have a chance with that Steeler o-line"?

Aaron Rodgers threw 16 40+ yard completions compared to Campbell's 3, and he was sacked 34 times. And I'd say the many of Campbell's sacks were partially due to his inordinately slow reads and holding the ball too long.

So enough with the excuses. Campbell's missed opportunities have been consistent year to year. The pattern is LESS THAN 1 TD per game over his entire career. 36 games, 35 TDs. In that important area, he has digressed with only 25 TDs in the past 29 games. He doesn't have that special something that good QBs have .. that ability to make something happen. He requires ideal circumstances, ideal pass protection, ideal field position, huge running performances from Portis, and outstanding defensive help to win games. And after three years, his record as a starter has resulted in a losing record.

The only way Jason will see a Pro Bowl is to buy a ticket.

[brad7686]

If you look at the top QB's in the game, Brady, Manning, Warner etc. I think you'll notice several OBVIOUS differences from JC.

1. The Offensive line they play behind
2. The WR's they throw to
3. More than one season with their respective offensive systems

Now i agree, JC still has to prove he can play a whole season and I'm not labeling him as anything until I see him play another season. But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE) along with injuries to Portis, Kendall, Thomas, Jansen and Heyer when you grade JC's 2008 season. Another year with Zorn and possibly better luck with injuries (signing Haynesworth hasn't helped our main issues from 2008, O-line and depth) will give JC a chance to silence the critics. But there is no doubt he has skills. And I personally have doubt that we could find a better QB very easily. We would either have to give out another Haynesworth deal to a free agent QB or move up in the draft one year to select another unknown quantity rookie.

Stats aside, my issue is that his play hasn't improved much since he was named starter. When I think back, I don'tthink of "JC's been improving," it's more of the midset of he's been relatively static. I'm hoping that systems, aging line, ect ect is the problem and not him, but it's tough to make a case for one person with everyone around him is at fault and he goes free...

So his play last year before injuries didn't seem an improvement to you?

66% completions
8 TD, 0 INT
1754 yds.
90 QB RATING
6-2 record

Well okay then, we all have our differing opinions. I definitely saw an improved QB. In fact, even during training camp last year I remember telling friends that just seeing JC speak, he seemed a much more mature guy and at ease with his role as a team leader. But anyway, time will tell. I definitely expect to see more of what we saw during the first half of last season again in 2009.

Campbell's 66% completion rate only points to the very short, high percentage throws that are the focus of the WC offense. When you look at the bigger picture ... that being an offense with a RB leading the league and having 150 yard days, there should have been far more production than there was, points wise.

But since you place a great deal of importance on stats, let me "point out" a couple you haven't mentioned:

Jason Campbell was at the very mediocre numbers for completions of 20+ yards, and totally PATHETIC with only 3 40+ yard completions all season. When comparing, these stats are more closely aligned with QB's like Kyle Orton, Dan Orlovsky and Ryan Fitzpatrick, none of which anyone would confuse with being star QB's.

Additionally, you can't just continue to exclusively blame the O-Line for this. I would add that Rothelisberger was sacked 46 times and Cassel was sacked 47 times compared to Campbell's 38 last year. Were New England and Pittsburgh's o-lines giving them all that extra protection that poor Jason didn't get? Big Ben was also sacked 47 times in 2007, and 46 times in 2006. Do you ever hear " Oh poor Ben just doesn't have a chance with that Steeler o-line"?

Aaron Rodgers threw 16 40+ yard completions compared to Campbell's 3, and he was sacked 34 times. And I'd say the many of Campbell's sacks were partially due to his inordinately slow reads and holding the ball too long.

So enough with the excuses. Campbell's missed opportunities have been consistent year to year. The pattern is LESS THAN 1 TD per game over his entire career. 36 games, 35 TDs. In that important area, he has digressed with only 25 TDs in the past 29 games. He doesn't have that special something that good QBs have .. that ability to make something happen. He requires ideal circumstances, ideal pass protection, ideal field position, huge running performances from Portis, and outstanding defensive help to win games. And after three years, his record as a starter has resulted in a losing record.

The only way Jason will see a Pro Bowl is to buy a ticket.

Actually people do complain about Ben's protection and overall lack of movement in the pocket. It's why he puts up mediocre numbers which people forget because he has two super bowls. Not that it relates to Campbell, although Campbell, like a lot of QB's, could use better protection.

It's also important to note that the Skins have way less talent at O-line than the Patriots, and reasonably less talent there than the steelers. Campbell is just quicker and avoids more sacks. Not to mention the skins have a much less effective receiving corps. That said Campbell didn't light the world on fire, and may at least have a better line this year and will have less excuses. I doubt the receiving corps will improve much.

[skinsfan#33]

Actually people do complain about Ben's protection and overall lack of movement in the pocket.

Ben was a bad example! His protection wasn't good, but the vast majority of sacks are because he holds the ball too long. Any negative comments about Ben's ability to move in the pocket would only come from someone that hasn't seen him play very much. The dude is very hard to take down and is much more ellusive than Campbell.

[skinsfan#33]

Sure. Suppose we traded for Peyton Manning last year. According to you, having such a great QB would have made our line block better and our receivers magically catch better.

That is a 100% correct statement!!!!!!!

Peyton would have made everything better, but not perfect. Yes there still would have been issue at thos positions but they all would have improved.

This is much like what we saw with Collins in 07. He didn't just fall into a five game stretch were the line and reciever just magically started playing better. They were playing better because the team was getting better QB play.

THERE IS NO WAY WE MAKE THE PLAYOFF IN 07 if Campball never got hurt.

[PulpExposure]

When you look at the bigger picture ... that being an offense with a RB leading the league and having 150 yard days, there should have been far more production than there was, points wise.

Just a minor correction: you actually meant 150 yard DAY. Portis went over 150 once last year.

The only way Jason will see a Pro Bowl is to buy a ticket.

That's kind of funny, though.

[brad7686]

Actually people do complain about Ben's protection and overall lack of movement in the pocket.

Ben was a bad example! His protection wasn't good, but the vast majority of sacks are because he holds the ball too long. Any negative comments about Ben's ability to move in the pocket would only come from someone that hasn't seen him play very much. The dude is very hard to take down and is much more ellusive than Campbell.

Either way, not moving, holding the ball too long, you can't blame that on the line. The steelers line isn't as bad as ours. Also, I have seen him play, he's not exactly Usain Bolt back there. I would say its an extreme stretch to say he's more elusive than Campbell.

[RayNAustin]

When you look at the bigger picture ... that being an offense with a RB leading the league and having 150 yard days, there should have been far more production than there was, points wise.

Just a minor correction: you actually meant 150 yard DAY. Portis went over 150 once last year.

The only way Jason will see a Pro Bowl is to buy a ticket.

That's kind of funny, though.

OK, several 120-170 yard dayS

[RayNAustin]

Fumbles & INTs in 2007: 24 (in 13 games). Fumbles & INTs in 2008: 13 (in 16 games). Nope, not a significant improvement at all. Nope!

That's nice and all but the rest of his numbers stayed virtually the same from 2007 to 2008.

Not true.

Code: Select all

Season      Passing                                      Rushing        Fumbles 
      G  GS Comp Att Pct  Yds   Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost 
2008 16  16  315 506 62.3 3,245 6.4 13  6  38  266  84.3 47  258 5.5 1   7  1 
2007 13  13  250 417 60.0 2,700 6.5 12 11  21  110  77.6 36  185 5.1 1  13  8 
2006  7   7  110 207 53.1 1,297 6.3 10  6   7   55  76.5 24  107 4.5 0   1  0 

Tom Brady has fumbled 12 or more times in a season three times during his career.

Tom Brady doesn't fumble; he tucks the ball.

I'm sure you realize that this "improving" stat of 3,245 yards is actually worse than last year? 2007 216 yards per game - 2008- 202.8 yards per game.

His TDs were WORSE too. 2007 12 TD's in 12 1/2 games played. Only 13 TDs in 16 games played.

His completion percentage wen't up but his average yards per completion went down.

His QB rating went up because it's a nonsensical rating that has virtually no real value in assessing the quality of a QB's ability or success. It's unevenly weighted to completion percentage and interceptions allowing a dink and dunk offensive performance that inherently is less risky or prone to interceptions and incompletions to receive high ratings which mean ABSOLUTELY nothing.

If it did mean ANYTHING, then it would mean that Jason Campbell is a better QB than: Roger Stauback; Sonny Jurgensen; Troy Aikman; Warren Moon; Bart Star; Dan Fouts; John Elway; Johnny Unitas; Sammy Baugh, and 100 others, but he certainly isn't and it doesn't.

His winning percentage for 2008 achieved 500 only because of a defense that allowed the Redskins to win a couple of baseball score type games.

All in all, the New and Improved Jason Campbell is just about the same as the old Jason Campbell except that his TD per game production actually went down in 2008 from 2007 just as it went down in 2007 from 2006. So points wise ... which is a slightly important statistic has STEADILY declined. Minus the early 5 game temporary competence, 2008 was about as lame as ever I saw a Redskin QB since Heath Shuler. Certainly the 2-6 finish was about the biggest collapse of any I've seen, and in no small measure to the fact that this offense with Jason Campbell couldn't score against anyone, including the Rams, Browns, Bengals, and 49ers.

[Cooter]

Certainly the 2-6 finish was about the biggest collapse of any I've seen

Let's not forget the collapse of 2000 .

[yupchagee]

Certainly the 2-6 finish was about the biggest collapse of any I've seen

Let's not forget the collapse of 2000 .

I WANT to forget! Why did you go & remind me?

[PulpExposure]

Certainly the 2-6 finish was about the biggest collapse of any I've seen

Let's not forget the collapse of 2000 .

What about the 1996 collapse?

Skins start 7-1...and end up 9-7. THANK YOU NORV TURNER!

[MakeRomoCry]

Sure.  Suppose we traded for Peyton Manning last year.  According to you, having such a great QB would have made our line block better and our receivers magically catch better. 

That is a 100% correct statement!!!!!!!Peyton would have made everything better, but not perfect.  Yes there still would have been issue at thos positions but they all would have improved.This is much like what we saw with Collins in 07.  He didn't just fall into a five game stretch were the line and reciever just magically started playing better.  They were playing better because the team was getting better QB play. THERE IS NO WAY WE MAKE THE PLAYOFF IN 07 if Campball never got hurt.

I wouldn't argue that a great player such as Manning would elevate the teams play... However, I don't know that he could of helped our team in that regard.  Did you happen to see the Colts offense at the beginning of last season when Peyton didn't have his star center and receiver?As for Collins in '07-  I wish people would stop bringing this up.  He knew Saunders' 700 page playbook in and out.  He studied this offense in depth for the majority of his career.  I also believe that when Campbell went down and Collins stepped in, Joe Gibbs relinquished full control of the offense to Al Saunders.  I have no proof of this, but it seems to me that when Saunders was initially brought in, Gibbs still had his thumb print on the game plan and would at times override the calls.  I don't think it was until Collins came in that he stepped aside and let Al call the games as he wanted. To say that there is no way we would have made the playoffs with Campbell in '07 is silly. A lot of teams make the playoffs with a strong running game, defense and a QB who needs to just manage the game.

[Cooter]

A lot of teams make the playoffs with a strong running game, defense and a QB who needs to just manage the game.

Baltimore Ravens and Minnesota Vikings last year.

[RayNAustin]

One more big off season move that the Redskins should try and work ...

Jay Cutler. He's unhappy with Denver, and Denver seems willing to part with him. Jason Campbell and a 1st round pick for Cutler.

Campbell is in the last year of his contract. If he performs at the same mediocre level he has up to now (and there's no reason to believe he won't) , he'll not get re-signed and the Redskins will get nothing.

If Campbell still has value at this point, why not try to move him and attain a player who already has proven to be one of the better young QB's in the league? Since Cutler will have to learn a new system in Denver anyway, the Broncos may believe that they could groom a guy like Campbell instead ... get a 1st round pick, and also get rid of a disgruntled player.

We've worked big deals with Denver before, why not again?

[Cooter]

Jason Campbell and a 1st round pick for Cutler.

That's ludicrous.

If you ask me neither QB has accomplished anything; so you want to swap unproven QB's and give Denver a 1st rounder. No thanks.

[MakeRomoCry]

One more big off season move that the Redskins should try and work ...

Jay Cutler. He's unhappy with Denver, and Denver seems willing to part with him. Jason Campbell and a 1st round pick for Cutler.

Campbell is in the last year of his contract. If he performs at the same mediocre level he has up to now (and there's no reason to believe he won't) , he'll not get re-signed and the Redskins will get nothing.

If Campbell still has value at this point, why not try to move him and attain a player who already has proven to be one of the better young QB's in the league? Since Cutler will have to learn a new system in Denver anyway, the Broncos may believe that they could groom a guy like Campbell instead ... get a 1st round pick, and also get rid of a disgruntled player.

We've worked big deals with Denver before, why not again?

As much as I like Campbell, I wouldnt be opposed to trading for Cutler. Giving up a 1st would be rough though. I would try Campbell, next years 2 and some scrub. If he wants out of Denver bad enough, which he apparently does, I'm sure McDaniels and the FO will oblige him.

[Countertrey]

One more big off season move that the Redskins should try and work ...

Jay Cutler. He's unhappy with Denver, and Denver seems willing to part with him. Jason Campbell and a 1st round pick for Cutler.

Campbell is in the last year of his contract. If he performs at the same mediocre level he has up to now (and there's no reason to believe he won't) , he'll not get re-signed and the Redskins will get nothing.

If Campbell still has value at this point, why not try to move him and attain a player who already has proven to be one of the better young QB's in the league? Since Cutler will have to learn a new system in Denver anyway, the Broncos may believe that they could groom a guy like Campbell instead ... get a 1st round pick, and also get rid of a disgruntled player.

We've worked big deals with Denver before, why not again?

Cutler is a whining baby, who can't face the business realities of the NFL. Essentially, this is all over him hearing that no one is irreplacable, that for the right offer, even he could be traded. Boo hoo.

I'm sorry... of all the players on the team that I want to display some maturity and leadership, it is the quarterback. Cutler is an incredible talent... possibly on a par with Peyton Manning... but his head is a lot closer to Jeff George.

No. Disatisfied as I am with Jason's lack of steel in his spine, I'll stay with him over Cutler.

[MakeRomoCry]

One more big off season move that the Redskins should try and work ...

Jay Cutler. He's unhappy with Denver, and Denver seems willing to part with him. Jason Campbell and a 1st round pick for Cutler.

Campbell is in the last year of his contract. If he performs at the same mediocre level he has up to now (and there's no reason to believe he won't) , he'll not get re-signed and the Redskins will get nothing.

If Campbell still has value at this point, why not try to move him and attain a player who already has proven to be one of the better young QB's in the league? Since Cutler will have to learn a new system in Denver anyway, the Broncos may believe that they could groom a guy like Campbell instead ... get a 1st round pick, and also get rid of a disgruntled player.

We've worked big deals with Denver before, why not again?

Cutler is a whining baby, who can't face the business realities of the NFL. Essentially, this is all over him hearing that no one is irreplacable, that for the right offer, even he could be traded. Boo hoo.

I'm sorry... of all the players on the team that I want to display some maturity and leadership, it is the quarterback. Cutler is an incredible talent... possibly on a par with Peyton Manning... but his head is a lot closer to Jeff George.

No. Disatisfied as I am with Jason's lack of steel in his spine, I'll stay with him over Cutler.

Good points.
In respect to Cutler, I can think of a million players that can't face the business realities of the NFL, especially the younger ones. Most of these guys have lived sheltered lives and all think they're numero uno. I'm not condoning Jay Cutlers behavior, he certainly could have handled the situation differently. Josh McDaniels is clearly trying to send a message to this team that no one's job is safe and there's something to be said for that. However, this is a coach who was the father figure to Tom Brady, he obviously will have high expectations, coming from New England. On the flip side, I think when an organization finds a rare talent like Cutler, you should give him the reassurance of being the teams leader and build around him. If I were Cutler, I would have been a little bitter about entertaining the notion of being traded for a guy with much less experience just because your new coach has some familiarity with him. Again, he could have handled the whole thing differently and not gone public with his displeasure. I think all NFL players, with the money they make, should shut up and go to work and perform like most of us do in our everyday jobs.

[RayNAustin]

Sure.  Suppose we traded for Peyton Manning last year.  According to you, having such a great QB would have made our line block better and our receivers magically catch better. 

That is a 100% correct statement!!!!!!!Peyton would have made everything better, but not perfect.  Yes there still would have been issue at thos positions but they all would have improved.This is much like what we saw with Collins in 07.  He didn't just fall into a five game stretch were the line and reciever just magically started playing better.  They were playing better because the team was getting better QB play. THERE IS NO WAY WE MAKE THE PLAYOFF IN 07 if Campball never got hurt.

I wouldn't argue that a great player such as Manning would elevate the teams play... However, I don't know that he could of helped our team in that regard.  Did you happen to see the Colts offense at the beginning of last season when Peyton didn't have his star center and receiver?As for Collins in '07-  I wish people would stop bringing this up.  He knew Saunders' 700 page playbook in and out.  He studied this offense in depth for the majority of his career.  I also believe that when Campbell went down and Collins stepped in, Joe Gibbs relinquished full control of the offense to Al Saunders.  I have no proof of this, but it seems to me that when Saunders was initially brought in, Gibbs still had his thumb print on the game plan and would at times override the calls.  I don't think it was until Collins came in that he stepped aside and let Al call the games as he wanted. To say that there is no way we would have made the playoffs with Campbell in '07 is silly. A lot of teams make the playoffs with a strong running game, defense and a QB who needs to just manage the game.

Lot's of speculation, and lots of inaccurate statements. First, Collins didn't study Saunders offense the majority of his career. They were together for about (5 years) of Collins career. Collins NEVER started a game in Saunders offense until the final three games of 2007. Collins came in in the final three minutes of the first half of the Chicago game, and immediately moved the team and scored a TD, while Campbell was ineffective for the first 27 minutes, and on the verge of producing a fifth straight loss and elimination from the playoffs. To suggest that Gibbs may have stepped aside or allowed more aggressive play calling at the very moment they inserted the 2nd string QB who hadn't played in 10 years is beyond wild speculation and doesn't pass the smell test.

Campbell's difficulties in the final 11 games of 2008 were mirror images of his difficulties in 2007 which many claimed was his unfamiliarity with the offense, yet it was early in 2008 that he seemed to perform better while digressing throughout the remainder of 2008. Similarly, Campbell's first 7 games starting in Saunders offense in 2006 was far more productive (10 TD's in 7 games) than his 12 TD in 12 1/2 games in 2007. One would naturally assume that Campbell should have been MORE familiar with the offense in 2007, and consequently more productive, IF lack of familiarity with the offense really was the issue. The results don't support such a view.

In Campbell's first 7 games as a pro, those 10 TD's put him on pace for a 22 TD full season, more reflective of a quality NFL QB. But since then, he has consistently averaged way less than 1 TD per game (25 TD's in 29 starts). That is extremely mediocre production.

No, Jason is not a VICTIM of anything other than his own inability to overcome his own shortcommings as a QB in the NFL.






Furthermore, Collins hadn't started any game under any system for 10 years, yet was immediately able to do what Campbell seemed incapable of.

[MakeRomoCry]

Sure.  Suppose we traded for Peyton Manning last year.  According to you, having such a great QB would have made our line block better and our receivers magically catch better. 

That is a 100% correct statement!!!!!!!Peyton would have made everything better, but not perfect.  Yes there still would have been issue at thos positions but they all would have improved.This is much like what we saw with Collins in 07.  He didn't just fall into a five game stretch were the line and reciever just magically started playing better.  They were playing better because the team was getting better QB play. THERE IS NO WAY WE MAKE THE PLAYOFF IN 07 if Campball never got hurt.

I wouldn't argue that a great player such as Manning would elevate the teams play... However, I don't know that he could of helped our team in that regard.  Did you happen to see the Colts offense at the beginning of last season when Peyton didn't have his star center and receiver?As for Collins in '07-  I wish people would stop bringing this up.  He knew Saunders' 700 page playbook in and out.  He studied this offense in depth for the majority of his career.  I also believe that when Campbell went down and Collins stepped in, Joe Gibbs relinquished full control of the offense to Al Saunders.  I have no proof of this, but it seems to me that when Saunders was initially brought in, Gibbs still had his thumb print on the game plan and would at times override the calls.  I don't think it was until Collins came in that he stepped aside and let Al call the games as he wanted.  To say that there is no way we would have made the playoffs with Campbell in '07 is silly.  A lot of teams make the playoffs with a strong running game, defense and a QB who needs to just manage the game.

Lot's of speculation, and lots of inaccurate statements.

No kidding?  That's why I said I have no proof of this.  It's just a theory.

First, Collins didn't study Saunders offense the majority of his career.  They were together for about (5 years) of Collins career.

5 years is long enough, even for a backup to be completely familiar with a playbook, and to know the nuances and philosophies of your coordinator.  A back up in the NFL is expected to do what Collins did.  He wasn't spectacular, he was good.  

Collins NEVER started a game in Saunders offense until the final three games of 2007.  Collins came in in the final three minutes of the first half of the Chicago game, and immediately moved the team and scored a TD, while Campbell was ineffective for the first 27 minutes, and on the verge of producing a fifth straight loss and elimination from the playoffs.  To suggest that Gibbs may have stepped aside or allowed more aggressive play calling at the very moment they inserted the 2nd string QB who hadn't played in 10 years is beyond wild speculation and doesn't pass the smell test.

You mean, it doesn't pass your smell test.  I could care less.  I firmly believe that Gibbs took a different approach with a veteran (albeit a backup), than a kid who he was trying to develop.  Also, as great as Gibbs was, the game had passed him by in the second time around.  As great as a coach he was, I believe that he single handedly cost us several games due to poor clock management and conservative play calling.  I know I will catch hell for saying this, but it's what I believe.  The NFL has evolved, it's not the same game it was 20 years ago.

Campbell's difficulties in the final 11 games of 2008 were mirror images of his difficulties in 2007 which many claimed was his unfamiliarity with the offense, yet it was early in 2008 that he seemed to perform better while digressing throughout the remainder of 2008.  Similarly, Campbell's first 7 games starting in Saunders offense in 2006 was far more productive (10 TD's in 7 games) than his 12 TD in 12 1/2 games in 2007.  One would naturally assume that Campbell should have been MORE familiar with the offense in 2007, and consequently more productive, IF lack of familiarity with the offense really was the issue.  The results don't support such a view.

You can go on all you want about stats and touchdowns.  I look at the bigger picture- such as talent around a QB, strength of schedule, key injuries etc...Fact is, our defense last year was stout, but it failed to create turnovers and short fields- a luxury which many other QB's enjoy, and hence the signings of DeAngelo Hall and Albert Haynesworth.

In Campbell's first 7 games as a pro, those 10 TD's put him on pace for a 22 TD full season, more reflective of a quality NFL QB.  But since then, he has consistently averaged way less than 1 TD per game (25 TD's in 29 starts).  That is extremely mediocre production.No, Jason is not a VICTIM of anything other than his own inability to overcome his own shortcommings as a QB in the NFL.

Youre entiltled to your opinion.  You can wax numbers all you want, look at the Super Bowl winners as of late.  As good as Big Ben is, I credit his excellent receiving core, Dick LeBeau and the Steeler defense just as much, if not more.  Eli Manning is good, but who is he without Plaxico or that stout defense?  I'm not comparing Campbell to these guys, I'm simply making the point that it's not all about the QB like you suggest.

Furthermore, Collins hadn't started any game under any system for 10 years, yet was immediately able to do what Campbell seemed incapable of.

For a guy that wanted to point out speculation and inaccuracies, you used a lot of words in your post like 'seemed', 'about', 'should' and 'assume'. People (not necessarily you), want to go on about how great of a player Brett Favre was.  If he was so great, how come he won 1 championship in nearly 2 decades of playing time?  It was because most of the time in Green Bay, the talent was lacking.  Oh and that time he did win, he had guys like Reggie White on his team.  In football stats such as yardage, and touchdowns are great, but ultimately they don't mean a thing.  Winning is what counts, I think it's crazy to credit or discount a single player (even a QB) for a teams fortunes or otherwise.  Winning takes a total team effort, not to mention for a franchise to be successful, it takes all elements from the front office, to the coaching on down- to be outstanding. Weather you like it or not, there is a certain amount of luck involved in this game.  The football itself is oblong and never bounces the same way.  All things should be considered when trying to gague a player and his progression.

[MakeRomoCry]

double post, sorry.