Snyder's greed

[Skinsfan55]

Shh, some people just need to have a scapegoat to complain about.

Both of you are right. Nobody is really accountable for the results. They just happen. It must be the luck of the draw. I have my ticket for next season's raffle.

There's blame to go around. That's the point. Danny shares in some, our past coaches share in some, Vinny shares some, the players share a lot of it...

The reason the Redskins haven't been an elite team since Gibbs is not Danny or Vinny's fault alone. Sure they have made mistakes but Gibbs left us for an early retirement and the franchise immediately went down the tubes.

We drafted Desmond Howard, Heath Shuler and Michael Westbrook... and the Danny wasn't responsible for any of that. Even if I gave you 2001 as the only season where Danny wasn't the personnel man (I don't believe this as Spurier and Gibbs had a serious hand in offseason moves) but we drafted Rod Gardner in the first round.

And what about the players who haven't been winning playoff games? Are they just completely absolved of responsibility? It's all the owners fault if they can't get it done on the field?

What about our coaches who didn't have the right gameplans? Who couldn't get their teams to beat arguably inferior teams?

What about Joe Gibbs hand selecting Mark Brunell as QB and trading a pick for him when he was gonna be released anyway? (Or the times he traded draft picks with complete disregard for the chart provided by the NFL.)

The Redskins have been a fairly dysfunctional franchise for going on 17 years now and it is not the fault of one man.

And it's that which makes your argument so ridiculous.

[PulpExposure]

How can snyder be called greedy and careless with money at the same time/

Good question. Here it goes:

1) He is greedy because he squeezes every penny off the fans' pocket with an overpriced and mediocre product.

Actually, he doesn't. Ticket prices have been raised twice since he took over the team; they used to be the highest in the league, and they no longer are (6th...not great...but not the highest).

If he was really interested in squeezing every penny out, he'd raise ticket prices more often.

[Irn-Bru]

There's blame to go around. That's the point. Danny shares in some, our past coaches share in some, Vinny shares some, the players share a lot of it...

If only there was some common variable. . .someone whose decision it was to hire coaches, Vinny, and the players. . .some kind of. . .'owner', or something. Who's in charge, anyway?!

And what about the players who haven't been winning playoff games? Are they just completely absolved of responsibility? It's all the owners fault if they can't get it done on the field?

No, but ask yourself this: if the system for fielding a team is broken, where do we start to fix it?

What about Joe Gibbs hand selecting Mark Brunell as QB and trading a pick for him when he was gonna be released anyway? (Or the times he traded draft picks with complete disregard for the chart provided by the NFL.)

This is one example of many. Do you happen to know who does the negotiating in contracts and trades?

The Redskins have been a fairly dysfunctional franchise for going on 17 years now and it is not the fault of one man.

And it's that which makes your argument so ridiculous.

A causes B, C, and D. B and C cause E, F, G, and H. D causes I, J, and K. If the whole chain of causes stinks, from A to K, it's OK to point out that A is the primary problem. That doesn't mean A gets all the blame, because B, C, D, etc. are all causes too. But it's a bad argument to say that A can't be the primary cause because B and E cause things, too. See?

[El Mexican]

Good management starts with sound decision-making at the top and it normally flows down towards the employees.

With this team, the top is mangled with responsabilities it should not have: GM and cherry picking players the owner thinks could be a good fit with the team.

Makes no sense to me.

[VetSkinsFan]

How can snyder be called greedy and careless with money at the same time/

Good question. Here it goes:

1) He is greedy because he squeezes every penny off the fans' pocket with an overpriced and mediocre product.

Actually, he doesn't. Ticket prices have been raised twice since he took over the team; they used to be the highest in the league, and they no longer are (6th...not great...but not the highest).

If he was really interested in squeezing every penny out, he'd raise ticket prices more often.

Stop with facts and logic...it has no place here. Nothing but emotion and asumptions are allowed.

[Skinsfan55]

People who are in a state of disgust and panic over the franchise need a scapegoat. So they go after the one guy in the organization who is a huge Redskins fan and who spends hundred of millions of his own money to improve the team.

It's just idiotic to blame Dan Snyder for the state of the franchise (that was in decay years before he bought the team, and 17 years total), and it's just as idiotic to keep throwing back these moves he made ten years ago as evidence that the franchise is (and always will be) in a state of decline as long ad he and Vinny are around.

The Redskins are on the way up IMO and if people disagree that's fine but I'm still entitled to mock their doom and gloom whinefest.

[Redskin in Canada]

The Redskins are on the way up IMO and if people disagree that's fine but I'm still entitled to mock their doom and gloom whinefest.

The facts man, just the FACTS.

[Redskin in Canada]

Good management starts with sound decision-making at the top and it normally flows down towards the employees.

With this team, the top is mangled with responsabilities it should not have: GM and cherry picking players the owner thinks could be a good fit with the team.

Makes no sense to me.

Those on our side of the discussion have no facts, arguments or any logic, you hear? We are all emotion. We have no track record to show. We have no facts. We are NE-GA-TIVE.

And if we are not careful, we might just get even get under the skin of some of the mods.

Let's give them credit, we would not be posting in this place anymore if it was ES. Although the thought might have already crossed their minds.

[PulpExposure]

Good management starts with sound decision-making at the top and it normally flows down towards the employees.

With this team, the top is mangled with responsabilities it should not have: GM and cherry picking players the owner thinks could be a good fit with the team.

Makes no sense to me.

Those on our side of the discussion have no facts, arguments or any logic, you hear? We are all emotion. We have no track record to show. We have no facts. We are NE-GA-TIVE.

And if we are not careful, we might just get even get under the skin of some of the mods.

Let's give them credit, we would not be posting in this place anymore if it was ES. Although the thought might have already crossed their minds.

Seriously, that's rather unfair to all of us mods, RiC. In all seriousness, you have to do a lot more than complain about the FO to get booted from this site. I can't speak for the other mods, but you've done nothing that upsets or angers me in the least, and you've certainly (as far as I can tell) haven't broken any forum rules. We're all very careful to seperate "OFFICIAL BOARD BUSINESS" from spouting our opinions on the message board. To say otherwise, to say that we conflate the two, is just a cheap shot at us, imho.

[Redskin in Canada]

Good management starts with sound decision-making at the top and it normally flows down towards the employees.

With this team, the top is mangled with responsabilities it should not have: GM and cherry picking players the owner thinks could be a good fit with the team.

Makes no sense to me.

Those on our side of the discussion have no facts, arguments or any logic, you hear? We are all emotion. We have no track record to show. We have no facts. We are NE-GA-TIVE.

And if we are not careful, we might just get even get under the skin of some of the mods.

Let's give them credit, we would not be posting in this place anymore if it was ES. Although the thought might have already crossed their minds.

Seriously, that's rather unfair to all of us mods, RiC. In all seriousness, you have to do a lot more than complain about the FO to get booted from this site. I can't speak for the other mods, but you've done nothing that upsets or angers me in the least, and you've certainly (as far as I can tell) haven't broken any forum rules. We're all very careful to seperate "OFFICIAL BOARD BUSINESS" from spouting our opinions on the message board. To say otherwise, to say that we conflate the two, is just a cheap shot at us, imho.

Hint: There are two smileys in my post.

Keep in mind that I ambeing accused of lack of facts and tha all my views on this topic are filled with negative emotion.

[PulpExposure]

Good management starts with sound decision-making at the top and it normally flows down towards the employees.

With this team, the top is mangled with responsabilities it should not have: GM and cherry picking players the owner thinks could be a good fit with the team.

Makes no sense to me.

Those on our side of the discussion have no facts, arguments or any logic, you hear? We are all emotion. We have no track record to show. We have no facts. We are NE-GA-TIVE.

And if we are not careful, we might just get even get under the skin of some of the mods.

Let's give them credit, we would not be posting in this place anymore if it was ES. Although the thought might have already crossed their minds.

Seriously, that's rather unfair to all of us mods, RiC. In all seriousness, you have to do a lot more than complain about the FO to get booted from this site. I can't speak for the other mods, but you've done nothing that upsets or angers me in the least, and you've certainly (as far as I can tell) haven't broken any forum rules. We're all very careful to seperate "OFFICIAL BOARD BUSINESS" from spouting our opinions on the message board. To say otherwise, to say that we conflate the two, is just a cheap shot at us, imho.

Hint: There are two smileys in my post.

Keep in mind that I ambeing accused of lack of facts and tha all my views on this topic are filled with negative emotion.

To be picky, one happy laughing face, and one evil devil...

And you do come across as incredibly negative about the Redskins, RiC. In all seriousness, you have a rather deep issue with the way Snyder runs the team; Snyder is going to own the Redskins (and likely run the Skins this way) for the next 40 years. If I was in your shoes, I'd consider becoming a FA fan and joining a team that's run the way you approve of.

Because it's not going to get better. Wholesale changes are not on the way. You can either realize that the FO has gotten better (signing younger players, to pretty smart contracts) than before...but Snyder will still run the team the way he always has. Barring some catastrophe...however, by buying talent as he does, we're almost assured of not dropping longterm into Lions status.

[DEHog]

People who are in a state of disgust and panic over the franchise need a scapegoat. So they go after the one guy in the organization who is a huge Redskins fan and who spends hundred of millions of his own money to improve the team.

Of all the arguments in support of DS these are the two that make no sense to me at all and quite frankly I’m sick of. SF55 nothing personal you’re not along in making these statements. If being a fan and spending money were prerequisites to winning, we’d have added a few Lombardi Trophies already. I know that I get labeled a Snyder basher/haters/whatever. Nothing could be further from the truth…I have two problems with Snyder…I dislike the way he treats faithful season ticket holders and I don’t like the continued spending on other teams developed players to be our saviors…I would prefer we “grow or own” a bit more and use FA to compliment our team.

Bernie provided us with a great article on how we seem to avoid the pitfalls of the cap year in and year out…I must give DS a great amount of credit here…but why hasn’t it translated to the field?? If I were Snyder I’d be pissed at the amount of production I’ve gotten for the amount of money he’s spent…but that’s where the loyal fan base comes in…it’s has cost him nothing…hence my comments on why he wouldn’t get away it in market like Detroit and Cincy. I’m just baffled as to why DS hasn’t figured it out yet…He spends like a sex manic in a ho house with a credit card and yet he has nothing to saw for it on the football side..and I don’t mean SB’s I just want to be playing meaniful game at the end of December and we have on a few occasion but not enough for the money he has put out IMO. The reason(s) and I believe there are many, start with personnel and who in charge of selecting players?? That’s why so many have called for a real GM to be put in place. Can you imagine a real GM coupled with DS cap knowledge!! But the longer he continues to go it alone (Say what you want about Vinny) he will continue to subject himself to criticisms such as RIC has suggested that he’s more concerned with the bottom line then winning.

I’m on record as wanting DS to spend much less and to develop more of our own players and pay them when appropriate…if that makes me a DS hater so be it. I know that he may very well win, and a lot of you will play the “I told you so” card but believe me it will be short lived. I want a system in place, not a win now mentality and I’m willing to wait for it.
You guys bring up great points when defending DS but “he’s a fan” and “look at the money he spends” aren’t among them.

[Countertrey]

Man, I hate this stuff... RIC can, indeed be a pain about the Danny. He detests what the man seems to represent. But, he is still a Redskins fan. Some things are bigger than hating the owner. I guarantee you... he was a fan long before Danny came along, and (in RIC's opinion, and with plenty of justification) started trashing several decades of reasonably sound team management. He comes across as negative about decisions the Danny has made because he IS negative about decisions the Danny has made. So what? He's negative about the FO, and Danny in particular... not the Redskins.

I can understand... and I won't begrudge him his fanhood, or suggest he go elsewhere, just because I think he's a tad overboard... ok, maybe more than a tad, but the point stands.

The bottom line is, there is no rulebook for being a Redskins fan. Even the ancephalic ones (no, I'm not talking about RIC... ) can express their loyalty as they wish. He can be loyal to his team without agreeing with the owner on a single issue. I don't doubt his loyalty to the 'skins.

I just don't think it's ever right to suggest that the way someone is displaying their fandom should ever result in a suggestion that they go elsewhere.

As has been pointed out... this is not ES. IMO, one of the important measures of the quality of a board is it's openess to dissent. THN is a great place.

[SkinsFreak]

Bernie provided us with a great article on how we seem to avoid the pitfalls of the cap year in and year out…I must give DS a great amount of credit here…but why hasn’t it translated to the field??

DEHog, I respect the fact that you've acknowledged this, and I'll give you credit for that. Snyder has previously made mistakes, as everyone agrees, but he's also made some good decisions. The ability to comprehend those distinctly and objectively is what I've been talking about. You've done that here and I credit you for that.

1niksder did provide us great insight as to how Snyder and Eric Schaffer effectively and creatively manage the cap. 1niksder also provided credible insight that Snyder isn't all about greed when he provided this...

t's known as "Cash over Cap"...

He has a lot of cash so it's just a matter of fitting it under the cap.

If a player has a base salary of $8 million dollars, "the Danny" can give it to him right now (TODAY) as a signing bonus. Then that $8 million drops to $1,600,000 on the cap plus whatever the new base will be. That's a huge saving that he gains because he has a team in a market that will justify it. They can't do it in Tampa even with a a surplus of "cap space" or here is Jacksonville because Weaver won't spend his own money.

Greed is better defined by the Weaver's, Wayne Huizenga's and Bill Bidwells of the NFL; guys that pocket their profits and don't spend their own money on their teams. In other words, reinvesting their profits to better their product. I think that's what some fans mean when they talk about the money Snyder spends on the team. It ain't greedy to spend your own money. Perhaps the water incident at camp might be viewed as being greedy, so I understand that one.

Has it translated on the field? Not yet, but I see it moving in the right direction. Many say Snyder needs to hire a decent GM. Well, maybe he thinks he's already got a good GM. There's plenty of evidence that Gibbs and Williams were calling the shots during their tenure, and that included player acquisitions.

But after Gibbs retired, Vinny was promoted. Last year was Vinny's first season as "the man", and last year was a good one, draft and free agent wise. I also believe they made the right choice in selecting the coach. The vast majority of analysts believe the Skins are making the right decisions so far this year, including Haynesworth, Hall and Dockery, and the release of Taylor. I don't know if you get the NFLN, but the discussions have been positive regarding the moves made by the organization.

Certainly there was some media frenzy over the reported $100M contract for Haynesworth, but as 1niksder's article clearly and concisely points out, it's really only a $63M contract and Haynesworth will never reach $100M. Further, they've signed youth at positions of need, which is an improvement from previous signings. And even further, 1niksder's article clearly shows the Skins aren't strapped by AH's contract. Some here have said it's greedy and AH's contract will limit the team from signing other players and filling holes, and nothing could be further from the truth.

The jury is still out on Vinny, I agree, but I've seen a change of philosophy and and things are looking better. I'm not saying he's the best ever, but I do think he's done pretty good the past year or so (with the exception of Taylor, but the injuries and lack of production were unforeseen.)

[Redskin in Canada]

And you do come across as incredibly negative about the Redskins, RiC. In all seriousness, you have a rather deep issue with the way Snyder runs the team; Snyder is going to own the Redskins (and likely run the Skins this way) for the next 40 years. If I was in your shoes, I'd consider becoming a FA fan and joining a team that's run the way you approve of.

Now that we are talking in all seriousness, get ready, there are more people on our side than you think. And also, in all seriousness, most of us were Skins fans before Snyder ever conceived the idea of hijacking the Redskins from the rest of us.

Your resignation amazes me. The attitude of "go with the flow" "we have to live with it" "Danny and the Skins are one and the same" etc, etc.

You fail to acknowledge the fact that we are not about to call for a rebellion. We are not going to storm Redskin Park in a Coup d'Etat, although we might have been tempted. We cannot stop the owner from maximising his profit.

Our demand from DS is very SIMPLE: Hire a competent GM and step away from the football management side of the Team.

I fail to see how , not one and not poor fans, but long-term fans views calling a spade a spade make more harm and are more negative than helping raise the usual annual Christmas letter of wishes for Santa.

Because it's not going to get better. Wholesale changes are not on the way. You can either realize that the FO has gotten better (signing younger players, to pretty smart contracts) than before...but Snyder will still run the team the way he always has. Barring some catastrophe...however, by buying talent as he does, we're almost assured of not dropping longterm into Lions status.

I HOPE that the Skins do not drop to Lions status, although we lost to the Bungles and Rams last season. But if this is REALLY your expectation of MEDIOCRITY, you should be as angry and frustrated as we are.

[PulpExposure]

And you do come across as incredibly negative about the Redskins, RiC. In all seriousness, you have a rather deep issue with the way Snyder runs the team; Snyder is going to own the Redskins (and likely run the Skins this way) for the next 40 years. If I was in your shoes, I'd consider becoming a FA fan and joining a team that's run the way you approve of.

Now that we are talking in all seriousness, get ready, there are more people on our side than you think. And also, in all seriousness, most of us were Skins fans before Snyder ever conceived the idea of hijacking the Redskins from the rest of us.

Your resignation amazes me. The attitude of "go with the flow" "we have to live with it" "Danny and the Skins are one and the same" etc, etc.

You fail to acknowledge the fact that we are not about to call for a rebellion. We are not going to storm Redskin Park in a Coup d'Etat, although we might have been tempted. We cannot stop the owner from maximising his profit.

Our demand from DS is very SIMPLE: Hire a competent GM and step away from the football management side of the Team.

I fail to see how , not one and not poor fans, but long-term fans views calling a spade a spade make more harm and are more negative than helping raise the usual annual Christmas letter of wishes for Santa.

Because it's not going to get better. Wholesale changes are not on the way. You can either realize that the FO has gotten better (signing younger players, to pretty smart contracts) than before...but Snyder will still run the team the way he always has. Barring some catastrophe...however, by buying talent as he does, we're almost assured of not dropping longterm into Lions status.

I HOPE that the Skins do not drop to Lions status, although we lost to the Bungles and Rams last season. But if this is REALLY your expectation of MEDIOCRITY, you should be as angry and frustrated as we are.

Btw you fully understand that I'm not wishing you away at all; just that if I were in your shoes, I would say "To heck with this franchise" and walk away. To me, I watch sports for enjoyment (or torture, as a Redskins fan). But when being a fan of a team crosses into utter frustration and negativity (as you have), I absolutely walk away. I've got better things, more important things, to worry about than a stupid sports franchise (economy, my kids health, my job status, etc.) Because you continue, despite the frustration, to be a ardent fan, you're probably a better fan than I am.

As for Snyder, he started off terribly. However, he needed to learn how to run a franchise, and I think the evidence shows that under Gibbs, he's learned to do things better. You mistake me; it's not resignation I have, it's hope. Hope that he'll continue to learn. Because if you do not have hope that Snyder will improve as an owner, you just get frustration (above).

Also, you want a GM? Well, they have Cerrato. Supposedly, he's now the GM in charge, whereas it was pretty evident there were multiple people with input into personnel (Gibbs, Gregg Williams, Cerrato, Snyder). Cerrato may not be the best GM in the NFL (may not is an understatement), but he's not terrible as some construe him. For example, on the whole we've done pretty well with our draft picks when you look at other teams (we just trade them away, which is a whole other mess, though a large amount of those trades I put at Gibbs' feet, since he's always had love for the veteran players). Over the past 5 years or so, we've signed (after the early years fiascos) young players to pretty intelligent contracts. Even the Haynesworth contract is essentially a 4 year, 48 million deal...which is totally reasonable for a player like him (compare to Asomugha's deal in Oakland, which is 3 years for 45 million. Asomugha is a very, very good corner, but Haynesworth is probably the best defensive player in the league). Or the Dockery contract; as JLC reported today, it's essentially a 3 year, 13 million contract. That's peanuts, for today's market.

Finally, you mentioned getting the best GM in the league. I'm really not sure, with how this team is run, that the best GM in the league would want to come here. Pioli went to KC, where he knew he'd run the team. EVERYONE knows that if you come to DC, Snyder runs the team. And I can't ever imagine a situation where Snyder steps back from total control; after all, he did buy the damn thing for serious money, and he loves what he does. And, really, what great GM would want to join the Redskins and walk away from a situation where they have total control?

[Deadskins]

Our demand from DS is very SIMPLE: Hire a competent GM and step away from the football management side of the Team.

Do you really think about what you are saying? I'm sure if you had bought the Redskins, you would have just turned them over to someone else to run as they saw fit.

C'mon! Who among us would do any different? He has hired a man whom he trusts as an NFL insider in Cerrato, and you may not agree with that choice, but it is not yours to make. Sure, you may not agree with the FA signings, or the coaching hires and fires (other than Gibbs, of course), and I didn't agree with many of them either, but you can't really believe you would have bought the team and then just handed them over to someone else, do you? I know I wouldn't have.

Edit: I need to point out here that I'm totally with you on how he has handled the FO personnel. He cleaned house when he came in, firing many long tenured people (secretaries and such), and this year fired many low-level employees, in a "cost savings" move, that showed a real lack of empathy, IMO. But I can't fault him for how he has managed the team itself, for the above mentioned reasons.

[Fios]

And you do come across as incredibly negative about the Redskins, RiC. In all seriousness, you have a rather deep issue with the way Snyder runs the team; Snyder is going to own the Redskins (and likely run the Skins this way) for the next 40 years. If I was in your shoes, I'd consider becoming a FA fan and joining a team that's run the way you approve of.

Now that we are talking in all seriousness, get ready, there are more people on our side than you think. And also, in all seriousness, most of us were Skins fans before Snyder ever conceived the idea of hijacking the Redskins from the rest of us.

Your resignation amazes me. The attitude of "go with the flow" "we have to live with it" "Danny and the Skins are one and the same" etc, etc.

You fail to acknowledge the fact that we are not about to call for a rebellion. We are not going to storm Redskin Park in a Coup d'Etat, although we might have been tempted. We cannot stop the owner from maximising his profit.

Our demand from DS is very SIMPLE: Hire a competent GM and step away from the football management side of the Team.

I fail to see how , not one and not poor fans, but long-term fans views calling a spade a spade make more harm and are more negative than helping raise the usual annual Christmas letter of wishes for Santa.

Because it's not going to get better. Wholesale changes are not on the way. You can either realize that the FO has gotten better (signing younger players, to pretty smart contracts) than before...but Snyder will still run the team the way he always has. Barring some catastrophe...however, by buying talent as he does, we're almost assured of not dropping longterm into Lions status.

I HOPE that the Skins do not drop to Lions status, although we lost to the Bungles and Rams last season. But if this is REALLY your expectation of MEDIOCRITY, you should be as angry and frustrated as we are.

Btw you fully understand that I'm not wishing you away at all; just that if I were in your shoes, I would say "To heck with this franchise" and walk away. To me, I watch sports for enjoyment (or torture, as a Redskins fan). But when being a fan of a team crosses into utter frustration and negativity (as you have), I absolutely walk away. I've got better things, more important things, to worry about than a stupid sports franchise (economy, my kids health, my job status, etc.) Because you continue, despite the frustration, to be a ardent fan, you're probably a better fan than I am.

As for Snyder, he started off terribly. However, he needed to learn how to run a franchise, and I think the evidence shows that under Gibbs, he's learned to do things better. You mistake me; it's not resignation I have, it's hope. Hope that he'll continue to learn. Because if you do not have hope that Snyder will improve as an owner, you just get frustration (above).

Also, you want a GM? Well, they have Cerrato. Supposedly, he's now the GM in charge, whereas it was pretty evident there were multiple people with input into personnel (Gibbs, Gregg Williams, Cerrato, Snyder). Cerrato may not be the best GM in the NFL (may not is an understatement), but he's not terrible as some construe him. For example, on the whole we've done pretty well with our draft picks when you look at other teams (we just trade them away, which is a whole other mess, though a large amount of those trades I put at Gibbs' feet, since he's always had love for the veteran players). Over the past 5 years or so, we've signed (after the early years fiascos) young players to pretty intelligent contracts. Even the Haynesworth contract is essentially a 4 year, 48 million deal...which is totally reasonable for a player like him (compare to Asomugha's deal in Oakland, which is 3 years for 45 million. Asomugha is a very, very good corner, but Haynesworth is probably the best defensive player in the league). Or the Dockery contract; as JLC reported today, it's essentially a 3 year, 13 million contract. That's peanuts, for today's market.

Finally, you mentioned getting the best GM in the league. I'm really not sure, with how this team is run, that the best GM in the league would want to come here. Pioli went to KC, where he knew he'd run the team. EVERYONE knows that if you come to DC, Snyder runs the team. And I can't ever imagine a situation where Snyder steps back from total control; after all, he did buy the damn thing for serious money, and he loves what he does. And, really, what great GM would want to join the Redskins and walk away from a situation where they have total control?

If there were a standing ovation emoticon, I would use it here

[DEHog]

Man, I hate this stuff... RIC can, indeed be a pain about the Danny. He detests what the man seems to represent. But, he is still a Redskins fan. Some things are bigger than hating the owner. I guarantee you... he was a fan long before Danny came along, and (in RIC's opinion, and with plenty of justification) started trashing several decades of reasonably sound team management. He comes across as negative about decisions the Danny has made because he IS negative about decisions the Danny has made. So what? He's negative about the FO, and Danny in particular... not the Redskins.

I can understand... and I won't begrudge him his fanhood, or suggest he go elsewhere, just because I think he's a tad overboard... ok, maybe more than a tad, but the point stands.

The bottom line is, there is no rulebook for being a Redskins fan. Even the ancephalic ones (no, I'm not talking about RIC... ) can express their loyalty as they wish. He can be loyal to his team without agreeing with the owner on a single issue. I don't doubt his loyalty to the 'skins.

I just don't think it's ever right to suggest that the way someone is displaying their fandom should ever result in a suggestion that they go elsewhere.

As has been pointed out... this is not ES. IMO, one of the important measures of the quality of a board is it's openess to dissent. THN is a great place.

CT great post and thank you...Not even DS will deter me from being a fan...I still enjoy going to the games and rooting for the Skins. I know I have a different view on how the team should be run, but I also know it's his team and he's free to run it his way and I could be wrong.

[1niksder]

I was going to sit this one out, but...

The Redskins are on the way up IMO and if people disagree that's fine but I'm still entitled to mock their doom and gloom whinefest.

The facts man, just the FACTS.

I got Facts... like everyone else they are full of opinons

Some of us refuse to give credit were credit is due. "the Danny" has always had a plan and when followed they generally work out.

I'm not going to bash "the Danny" for how he runs the team, I just won't refer to him by his name until he does

For the record Bruce Smith will be entering the HoF this year, so it might be time to let that go, but I still will not talk about the signing of TAFKAPT

The fact is for the most part when he spent money back then he thought he COULD by a Championship, in the process some fan favorites got away. They were good players and in Marty's case good coaches, but "the Danny" had his ways.

As time went by he continued to sign big names to big contracts, it's hit or miss most years. A few years ago he became the NFL owner with a $100 million dollar (just counting player's salaries) payroll. Everyone call it "crazy" or said it would "kill the team because there wouldn't be any chemistry."

A few years after that the talking heads said because of his big spending the Redskins would be forced to carry at least 21 rookies on the roster, then "the Danny" gave every Free Agent he could find no less than $10 million dollars just to sign, and everyone picked the Skins to go deep in the post season. That's the only year I can remember the four letter network having anything positive to say about how "the Danny" was running the team.

All of sports media was talking about "the Danny" finally buying his Super Bowl. The love it when he signed Antwaan Randle El, Adam Archuleta and Brandon Lloyd. Of course in the end those clips were never to be aired again, and no one came out and said they had thought the deals were good once the season started. If they had done that then they would also have to admit being wrong about the $100 million payroll. After all that money went to guys like Shawn Springs, Phillip Daniels, Marcus Washington, and Cornelius Griffin.

Looking at the time line "the Danny" is learning as he goes. He ran the team like the fan that he is only it appears that he's got bottomless pockets. Maybe another fan/owner wouldn't have jumped right in with both feet, but he did and he's still dealing with it. Like someone else noted in this thread, any of us would have had the same ideas. He had the B lls to act on it.

He didn't get credit for hiring Marty (who cleaned out the roster and the cap), mainly because he turned around and fired him. We won"t talk about his replacement.

Didn't spend a lot in free agency those two years because we had the ole ball coach and the guys he wanted to pitch an catch with came cheap.

You could say the first $100 million payroll was a marketing ploy, but that was engineered by JJG and they were still here when he left.

The only other big free agent signings I can think of were ARE and those other two guys.

It's a bigger crap shoot than the draft and he's about 50/50 when it comes to signing free agents. I think those guys that sign when ARE did scared "the Danny" which is why London Fletcher has been the only big signing until now.

When we talk facts, theres not a whole that "the Danny" has done wrong when he sticks to his plans.

1. Can't say the roster is full of aging vets.
It's 58 players on the roster but there is only a dozen that is 30 or older.

2. They should build through the draft?
22 of the current Redskins were drafted by the Redskins (15 in the last five years).

3. The free agents they bring in only sign because they are at the end of their career and are looking for the biggest payday.
Haynesworth is under 30 and Tampa actually offered more money, Hall will be just hitting 30 when his contract runs out and New England make him a better offer (before mid-night )

When you look at how he runs the team, the fact is he is not doing a bad job.
Is he out of the dog house? Not by a longshot

[Fios]

I was going to sit this one out, but...

The Redskins are on the way up IMO and if people disagree that's fine but I'm still entitled to mock their doom and gloom whinefest.

The facts man, just the FACTS.

I got Facts... like everyone else they are full of opinons

Some of us refuse to give credit were credit is due. "the Danny" has always had a plan and when followed they generally work out.

I'm not going to bash "the Danny" for how he runs the team, I just won't refer to him by his name until he does

For the record Bruce Smith will be entering the HoF this year, so it might be time to let that go, but I still will not talk about the signing of TAFKAPT

The fact is for the most part when he spent money back then he thought he COULD by a Championship, in the process some fan favorites got away. They were good players and in Marty's case good coaches, but "the Danny" had his ways.

As time went by he continued to sign big names to big contracts, it's hit or miss most years. A few years ago he became the NFL owner with a $100 million dollar (just counting player's salaries) payroll. Everyone call it "crazy" or said it would "kill the team because there wouldn't be any chemistry."

A few years after that the talking heads said because of his big spending the Redskins would be forced to carry at least 21 rookies on the roster, then "the Danny" gave every Free Agent he could find no less than $10 million dollars just to sign, and everyone picked the Skins to go deep in the post season. That's the only year I can remember the four letter network having anything positive to say about how "the Danny" was running the team.

All of sports media was talking about "the Danny" finally buying his Super Bowl. The love it when he signed Antwaan Randle El, Adam Archuleta and Brandon Lloyd. Of course in the end those clips were never to be aired again, and no one came out and said they had thought the deals were good once the season started. If they had done that then they would also have to admit being wrong about the $100 million payroll. After all that money went to guys like Shawn Springs, Phillip Daniels, Marcus Washington, and Cornelius Griffin.

Looking at the time line "the Danny" is learning as he goes. He ran the team like the fan that he is only it appears that he's got bottomless pockets. Maybe another fan/owner wouldn't have jumped right in with both feet, but he did and he's still dealing with it. Like someone else noted in this thread, any of us would have had the same ideas. He had the B lls to act on it.

He didn't get credit for hiring Marty (who cleaned out the roster and the cap), mainly because he turned around and fired him. We won"t talk about his replacement.

Didn't spend a lot in free agency those two years because we had the ole ball coach and the guys he wanted to pitch an catch with came cheap.

You could say the first $100 million payroll was a marketing ploy, but that was engineered by JJG and they were still here when he left.

The only other big free agent signings I can think of were ARE and those other two guys.

It's a bigger crap shoot than the draft and he's about 50/50 when it comes to signing free agents. I think those guys that sign when ARE did scared "the Danny" which is why London Fletcher has been the only big signing until now.

When we talk facts, theres not a whole that "the Danny" has done wrong when he sticks to his plans.

1. Can't say the roster is full of aging vets.
It's 58 players on the roster but there is only a dozen that is 30 or older.

2. They should build through the draft?
22 of the current Redskins were drafted by the Redskins (15 in the last five years).

3. The free agents they bring in only sign because they are at the end of their career and are looking for the biggest payday.
Haynesworth is under 30 and Tampa actually offered more money, Hall will be just hitting 30 when his contract runs out and New England make him a better offer (before mid-night )

When you look at how he runs the team, the fact is he is not doing a bad job.
Is he out of the dog house? Not by a longshot

Great post 1nik

[Deadskins]

TAFKAPT

Don't you mean TFAKAPT?

[SkinsJock]

I was also going to just read and return every now and then but the post by 1niksder is very good and came close in many cases to how I feel Snyder has done since he bought the team.

I was going to sit this one out, but...

When we talk facts, there's not a whole that "the Danny" has done wrong when he sticks to his plans.

1. Can't say the roster is full of aging vets.
It's 58 players on the roster but there is only a dozen that is 30 or older.

2. They should build through the draft?
22 of the current Redskins were drafted by the Redskins (15 in the last five years).

3. The free agents they bring in only sign because they are at the end of their career and are looking for the biggest payday.
Haynesworth is under 30 and Tampa actually offered more money, Hall will be just hitting 30 when his contract runs out and New England make him a better offer (before mid-night )

When you look at how he runs the team, the fact is he is not doing a bad job.
Is he out of the dog house? Not by a longshot

Initially I was intrigued by the fact that Snyder could put together the 'deal' that enabled him to have ownership of the Washington Redskins. This was a dream come true as far as a fan of this franchise is concerned and at about 600 million - amazing for a guy who was just over 30

I also initially was willing to give him some latitude for not behaving like any other owner (or at least the established group of families and corporations that controlled NFL franchises) and going out and hiring the best players he could and basically not "hearing' the advice from many in the media and established NFL types that Snyder needed to do things the same old way - "you cannot buy a Super Bowl victory"

I was a defender of the FA signings in lieu of the draft but I now feel that a combination of the 2 is the surest way to build a team.

I still think Snyder wants what is best for the team and that he thinks that he and Cerrato can do this but this latest deal with Fat Albert is terribly frustrating only because we had shown such restraint recently and while, IMO, we had to give up the picks in this draft we were still (as 1niksder pointed out) a relatively young team and were on the road to getting better.

At the end of last season we all knew we were at least 2 more drafts and some sensible FA signings away - we all knew that Snyder and Cerrato were going to add some young Free Agents at reasonable prices and continue as they had done the last 2 years - we all knew that Cerrato and his team would add the right mix to make others in the team also better - in other words build a team. We all hoped that the FO had at last realized a team had a better chance of developing if it was young and deep especially along both lines.

Now we have this signing and while everyone is pointing out what it is worth - this contract contains a huge guaranteed amount and is very risky regarding the health history - where is our guarantee if he does not work out being the greatest defensive lineman? I do not know exactly who we could have signed to help this team I just am not convinced that we should always try and sign the biggest name out there as we have done here.

Why do we always have to be the team that makes the splash

I agree with 1niksder that Snyder is not doing a bad job but he is a long way from getting me back to feeling he is close to doing a good job and giving him the benefit of the doubt regarding knowing what he is doing in running an NFL franchise - he has let us down way to many times

[Redskin in Canada]

When you look at how he runs the team, the fact is he is not doing a bad job.
Is he out of the dog house? Not by a longshot

You and other posters on your side of the argument are RIGHT. The way the Team has been RUN will not drive the Team into "earning" a First Round Pick in the Draft. No last place in the standings. No Detroit Lions type of systematic dysfunctional disaster.

The problem is that, as opposed to you, I do not believe that there has been or there is a CONSISTENT PLAN to field a Team with a real prospect to win a Superbowl. The stopgap measures that have been taken throughout the years of his tenure have allowed us to range in performance from mediocre records to compeitive status at individual games or even short stretches throughout some seasons.

The problem is that this approach is FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED because he has never been, is not and will never be a true NFL Expert or anything close to what could resemble a good GM capable to field a Superbowl winning team. His decisions allow us to consistently generate expectations and even put good performances at times. But it will keep us in MEDIOCRITY.

I am not accusing the Danny of running this team to Detroit Lions status. I am accusing the Danny of keeping this team in MEDIOCRITY.

You are a far better expert at Skins numbers than I will ever be. You will not dispute these:

Code: Select all

2008   8   8 
2007   9   7 
2006   5  11 
2005  10   6 
2004   6  10 
2003   5  11 
2002   7   9 
2001   8   8 
2000   8   8 
1999  10   6 

Overall, from 1999 to 2008, we have a record of 76 - 84

Maybe this is not a disaster á la Matt Millen Detroit Lions but it is a MEDIOCRE record. For those of you who would point out at the two 10 - 6 seasons, others would bring up the two 5 - 11 seasons.

Do you get any indications FROM THE ECORD that a tangible improvement has been made to win CONSISTENTLY? I do not mean a Superbowl, I mean only WINNING seasons?

The BEST living coach on Earth could not do it. John Madden, of all people, when commenting the departure by Joe Gibbs and his "mixed record" upon his second tenure with us said:

"The NFL changed and he had much better players the first time around."

Both were true statements. The fact that some of us point out in MODERN SPORTS that the MOST IMPORTANT position in any franchise is that of GM. This is true in the European soccer leagues, the MBA, the NBA, the NHL and of course, the highly competitive NFL.

To give you an example, the most important member of the Ravens is not on the field,. No, it is not Ray Lewis or Ed Reed. No, it is not its new coach. It is Ozzie Newsome, their GM. You can be a fan or not of this guy. But you cannot argue that, for the money, the Draft recruiting and FA acquisitions made by the Ravens have been more effective than ours. But I am ONLY using one example. I could have used instead the Colts or the Steelers with good GM. You get the point.

The fact that some of you use the Detroit Lions as a yardstick is pathetic. Use BOTH, the upper and the lower en of the stick to determine that the record and performance of this Team is MEDIOCRE (with admittedly some flashes of good and some disasters to match).

The question I pose to all of you is: Why are you still taking the same Kool Aid? Hope? Based on what? The promise of performance which results from new acquisitions which MAY turn out good? Have we not heard this before OFTEN?

Why is the Redskin Nation not rising itsvoice to demand ACCOUNTABILITY from the owner of the Franchise? All we get is, What?

He is not out of the dog house by a long shot.

No kidding.

I realise that RADICAL views are the target of criticism. Mine are RADICAL. But it takes RADICAL people like me to move the "average center" of public opinion at times.

Trust me, it would be a lot more comfortable to seat down and share the Kool Aid with all of you. I might even venture to predict a winning record for you next season to try to show that I am a better fan the more optimistic I become.

I DO NOT THINK SO.

[DEHog]

Once again Bernie you bring some reason to the argument and thank you for not saying DS is doing a good job because he’s a fan and spends lots of money!!

I was encouraged by the fact that we only have 12 players over 30 but when I checked THN is says we have 16 players over 30 and will have 21 by the start of the season?? I’m sure that will change by the beginning of the season.

Of the 22 player we have drafted how many are starters?? I know that draft is hit or miss but the more picks we keep the better the chances are of landing another Sean Taylor.

As for FA signings…I’m not one who argues that we are bringing in old FA that are looking for a big paydays…I think Snyder has learned from those past mistakes. My problem is that we are paying the premium for a guy best years with another team…I want to see us sign a guy who we developed and had pro-bowls with us!! Then add a FA to compliment our team that seems to be the winning formula around the league.

My final thought is my biggest concern. Many of you have said that Gibbs had full control for the four years he was here.. I don’t know?? What scares me is while Gibbs was here we did go to the playoff two of the four years. Outside of that the only time we made the playoffs was in DS first year. SO the next few years will say a lot as to how much DS has matured as an owner.