champ vs. clinton/ winslow vs. taylor

speedyduncan · Post by **speedyduncan** » Mon May 17, 2004 12:43 pm

I love champ bailey. But he was not all pro last season when we really needed him to be. I hope he sees the trade as a challenge and retakes his spot as the best db in the league. Clinton Portis is a great fit and the Skins did the right thing. The $ is a question but I think Portis will make sure it is a non issue by performance.

"I'm a soldier!" Winslow is his own biggest fan. Character is often a concern and Winslow may have trouble fitting in anywhere. Taylor seems like a Roy Williams (please excuse use of Cowboy name) type that we need.

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:34 pm

Ok if you watched the news clips we saw last night you'd be saying different about Champ. They were showing clips of Hambrick and talking about how great he was against us. The only one that stopped that dude from reaching the end zone in those clips was Champ. Mind you he got huge yardage but Champ stopped the score in those plays. He was valuable and imagine how valuable he'll be when he plays somewhere he knows people want him there. By people I mean owner/coaches.

speedyduncan · Post by **speedyduncan** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:37 pm

I know he was great but he was not the best corner in the league like he had been. chasing down troy hambrick is not the definition of great play. He did not shut down receivers like he had is all i'm saying.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:41 pm

Actually, i saw those plays replaying on channel 9 i think it was too.... I think Champ might have been in the area.... but it was Iffy, I believe who tripped Hambrick up before he got to the goal line....

I think Champ will do great in Denver.... as TCWest said in another post.... the WR in the AFCWest are just below "slow" compared to champ so he should have a couple of Pro Bowl seasons ahead of him..... I wish him luck... but I bleed Burgundy & Gold.... and he didn't.... so chow!

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:43 pm

speedyduncan wrote:I know he was great but he was not the best corner in the league like he had been. chasing down troy hambrick is not the definition of great play. He did not shut down receivers like he had is all i'm saying.

Did he shut down everybody? No..... but he was still tops in the NFL at his position......

John Manfreda · Post by **John Manfreda** » Mon May 17, 2004 2:23 pm

Champ Baily jgot burned by Marty Booker, abused by Meshawn, even the Eagles recievers had a field day with his ass. He wasn't good at all last year. Fred Smoot was the better one. More tackles and Interceptions, yeah I know he was thrown to more but looked what happened when he got hurt.

JonC56 · Post by **JonC56** » Mon May 17, 2004 2:34 pm

You can't compare Bailey and smoot. Bailey was matched up with the number one reciever while smoot was against the 2. We will miss bailey, he was the best corner in the league, and spirngs and smoot arent in his league. But considering all the varaibles in the bailey siuation we definetly made the best of it.

trey53 · Post by **trey53** » Mon May 17, 2004 2:39 pm

Oh, how quickly we forget! (or maybe turn on) Champ is definitely one of the premiere corners in the league. He was injured this past year unlike the previous years. Samuels was injured and everyone seems to give him a break on his play last year. Champ is a great CB who will continue to be a great CB without the Burgundy and Gold! I will miss him and wish him the best in Denver. I also think we got a great player in trade (though I still smart from the 2nd rounder). Portis will dominate for us. Good trade...but don't get down on Champ and pretend that he's no good just cause he left.

sportsrock37 · Post by **sportsrock37** » Mon May 17, 2004 2:44 pm

Champ is defintely a top 3 DB. Everyone gets burned a couple of times. Champ had to come in week in and week out and defend other team's top WR. I like the trade, because that gives Gibbs his stud RB, and we all know Gibbs loves his O-line and his RB.

Natural born Redskin · Mon May 17, 2004 2:47 pm

A lot of talk of Bailey in these last few days. Why? I don't know. I hope he gets burned by every receiver he covers. He left the Skins for money. Where is the loyalty to the team and fans? We made him a great offer and he didn't take b/c of his greed. Most NFL players like him end up over-rated (not that he isn't already) and forgotten about over time. He's going to be a bum in Denver and the AFC receivers will score all over him. Champ looked awful last year (he even got burned for a touchdown in the pro-bowl that he didn't deserve to be in). Denver fans want to believe so bad that they were victorious in this deal with Portis, but for real, Bailey's play/passion is on the downhill while Portis has his eyes fixed on running 2,000 yards this coming up season.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon May 17, 2004 5:00 pm

He left the Skins for money. Where is the loyalty to the team and fans? We made him a great offer and he didn't take b/c of his greed.
Im sorry but thats comment is completely wrong. Champ didn't leave because of money. He left because this organization was in the dumps. We had no direction, no leadership, no future under the Spurrier regime. I dont blame him for leaving. He and every other football player is sacrificing their bodies, and putting their lives at risks for our amusement. I wouldn't have stayed with a team like that either. They have extremely short careers, that can end ANY DAY and they want something to show for it. So I can't blame guys for wanting a super bowl ring. IMO all of them are overpayed. But this is our reality and in it they make millions upon millions and he is worth the top money he got payed.

He's going to be a bum in Denver and the AFC receivers will score all over him. Champ looked awful last year (he even got burned for a touchdown in the pro-bowl that he didn't deserve to be in).
Now you just seem really bitter which shows me deep down you must have really liked Champ. He didn't look awful. Our ******* line was horrible last year and you must not know ANYTHING about being a CB. If you have the slightest idea of wut it takes to play that position under the circumstances he had to then you wouldn't be saying that.

Denver fans want to believe so bad that they were victorious in this deal with Portis, but for real, Bailey's play/passion is on the downhill while Portis has his eyes fixed on running 2,000 yards this coming up season.

If Denver has a good d-line and pass rush then he's going to be a monster. And IMO Denver got the best deal because they got a 2nd round pick also. So really they made out better than we did. We weren't losers but the trade was lopsided.

Natural born Redskin · Mon May 17, 2004 7:13 pm

Our first offer would have made him the highest paid CB if he decided to play with us. IT WAS TOTALLY ABOUT THE MONEY. He wanted more and Denver gave it to him. I place Bailey in the group of Orlando Pace and Ty Law. And please don't make up excuses for Champs poor play last year. Smoot played twice as better than him. Last year, Champ played like a bum in a division with weak receivers. He will have his hands full in the AFC. I don't know what football you were watching last year. Champ is over-rated and that's the bottom line.

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Mon May 17, 2004 7:21 pm

Ok first of all I do not think Champ "is" overrated. I think last year he had an off year, as many Redskins did and many fans as well. He is a great CB. And just ask Jon Jansen how being under the gun to get a contract done can mess with your head. The man had no idea where he was going to play. Hell half of us with Spurrier as the coach were wondering where the heck the franchise was headed. I think you are dissing Champ because he isn't a Redskin any more. Which is ok I guess but he was a great Redskin. Now I'm pretty sure he'll be a darn good Bronco. I'm still all about the Skins but I don't think badmouthing him is the way to go because of the circumstances

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon May 17, 2004 7:25 pm

Our first offer would have made him the highest paid CB if he decided to play with us. IT WAS TOTALLY ABOUT THE MONEY. He wanted more and Denver gave it to him. I place Bailey in the group of Orlando Pace and Ty Law. And please don't make up excuses for Champs poor play last year. Smoot played twice as better than him. Last year, Champ played like a bum in a division with weak receivers. He will have his hands full in the AFC. I don't know what football you were watching last year. Champ is over-rated and that's the bottom line.

No it wasn't all about the money. I see you didn't read my entire statement. He wanted to go to an organization that had some sort of future and the Broncos seemed to be that place for him. We couldn't have kept Bailey regardless of how much money we gave him.

You CANNOT compare Smoot to Bailey, now thats plain retarded. Smoot is not playing the best wr's. Smoot would have been burned by those same receivers Champ was burned by. And if you think ANY CB will never get burned than you obviously don't watch football. You really must not know anything about the game if you believe that I was making excuses for Champ when i mentioned our poor pass rush. If you knew what you were talking about then you'd know that pass rush and pass defense go hand in hand. Any defense will get picked apart with a poor pass defense and I haven't even mentioned that horrible coaching we had.

Champ overrated? :roll:

Yea, me and the rest of the football community are wrong and thinking he's one of the greatest to current players.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon May 17, 2004 7:34 pm

Ok first of all I do not think Champ "is" overrated. I think last year he had an off year, as many Redskins did and many fans as well. He is a great CB. And just ask Jon Jansen how being under the gun to get a contract done can mess with your head. The man had no idea where he was going to play. Hell half of us with Spurrier as the coach were wondering where the heck the franchise was headed. I think you are dissing Champ because he isn't a Redskin any more. Which is ok I guess but he was a great Redskin. Now I'm pretty sure he'll be a darn good Bronco. I'm still all about the Skins but I don't think badmouthing him is the way to go because of the circumstances

My point EXACTLY! :idea:

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon May 17, 2004 7:51 pm

I see Winslow as a great player. He will have an INSTANT impact and will be a hall of famer if he is what the hype says he is. BUT. Winslows attitude will work to his demise and his teams. I have a bad feeling he has the potential to go the T.O route if he doesn't like things. Messing up team chemistry is fatal to a Super Bowl run. Im not wishing that negativity into his life, I wish him success, but he's too much of a hot head. Gibbs knew that and thats why he didn't pick him even though it was hard.

TAYLOR!! Im glad we got him. With a good defensive coach he will be an INSTANT impact. We have a GREAT coach. Blizting is easy for him. Covering TE's, simple. WR's, simple. Run stopping, simple. Laying people out, enjoyable. I LOVE DEFENSE, and I have a feeling unlike last year I will enjoy seeing our defense take the field.

Natural born Redskin · Mon May 17, 2004 8:34 pm

Okay, what are you talking about? What does one-on-one, man to man, receiver to CB have anything to with the pass rush? Are you saying that Champ needs help, He can't hold his own against his opponent. I do not fault Champ for mistakes made in the zone coverages. Toomer, Galloway, Thrash, Keshawn are all bums. Champ didn't cover anyone great and if he did he gave up a bunch of yards or worse the touchdown. No team was scared to throw on Bailey's side of the field."Bend but don't break." I know that a CB will get beat sometimes but if you are a "great shutdown corner", touchdowns and 60 plus receiving yards are unacceptable. [b]Champ "was" good, not so good last year.[/b] No need to reply on Smoot, you act like I said Smoot was the "greatest", "badest", "shutdown corner", to ever play. I just pointed out that Smoot played twice as better than Champ. We will see if Smoot is ready to take to the next level.

Everybody knows whether they say it or not, that Champ left the Skins strictly for the money. Don't fool yourself.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon May 17, 2004 9:19 pm

Okay, what are you talking about? What does one-on-one, man to man, receiver to CB have anything to with the pass rush?

With that statement you really proved to me that you know NOTHINGabout football. You have proved to me that you have never played that position either. It is EXTREMELY hard to follow a man around a field, REACTING to his every move. You don't know where the ball is going, you don't know where the man is going all u can do is react. You have the be a MONSTER of an athelete to be a good CB. You have to be faster than the WR's, you have to be able to make up that lost ground that happens when U are reacting to his movement. A PASS RUSH helps you out. It makes the QB mess up, it causes errant throws, it causes you to be LESS tired. When our offense gave the ball up so quickly last year, our defense was out there getting tired. But I know now that all of what I have typed is pointless and you truely aren't a football fan. You just watch the game, you don't study it and know it, you're just one of those fans who complain when we don't win.

Everybody knows whether they say it or not, that Champ left the Skins strictly for the money. Don't fool yourself.

Would you work for less than what you thought you were worth? And if you say "yes" than I'll never believe you. I know you are going to say "o but its millions of dollars he's going to get". And NONE of them deserve those salaries, but thats reality and the market. You support football so U support the salaries. And if that is the market than he has EVERY RIGHT to get wut he is worth, the same as U you and me. Champ wouldn't have gone to the Giants for that money, becuase they are going anywhere. He went somewhere he felt had a future which is evident. A lot of teams were pursuing him and he choose where he wanted to go.

Natural born Redskin · Mon May 17, 2004 9:50 pm

Again, what are you talking about? So what if I never played the position. That's irrelavent. It doesn't mean I know nothing of football. I know that pressure on a QB throws the timing off between the QB and receiver and has its advantages. But are we talking about the job of the DL/DT or the job of a CB? I know what a CB has to do in order to be successful. I don't have to play the position. Are you saying that Champ had a hard time doing everything you noted above about being a MONSTER CB. You claim that Champ is the greatest among current players, the best. Shutdown corner. That's not what I saw last year. He didn't do a good job covering anyone. Again, Smoot didn't have this problem of keeping up with his opponent. Reacting to receivers as you put it. Horn, Keshawn, Toomer, Galloway all bums, and Champ should not have struggled if he is so great. You must have not watched any of the Redskins games to remain such a hard core Champ fan. Look if it upset you that much, just sell your Champ Bailey Redskin jersey on EBAY for like $15 dollars b/c in a few years it won't be worth anymore than that.

I know I'm a newbie to this site but that doesn't mean I'm 10 years old and don't understand football. Come on Man!!!!!

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:02 pm

You claim that Champ is the greatest among current players, the best. Shutdown corner.

First of all I never said he was the best, don't put words in my mouth. He is one of the top 5. Go back and show me where I said what you said exactly.

You must have not watched any of the Redskins games to remain such a hard core Champ fan.

I watched every game and I was glad to see our entire 2ndary do as well as they did under the conditions of POOR COACHING, and a poor pass rush.

I know I'm a newbie to this site but that doesn't mean I'm 10 years old and don't understand football. Come on Man!!!!!

You make me wonder when you question me for my comment about a pass rush being critical to the success of a CB. Thats easy to understand.

Natural born Redskin · Mon May 17, 2004 10:22 pm

[quote]Champ overrated? Yea, me and the rest of the football community are wrong and thinking he's one of the greatest to current players.[/quote]

Enough said, I don't feel like looking up the rest of the bs you wrote on Bailey.

[quote]I watched every game and I was glad to see our entire 2ndary do as well as they did under the conditions of POOR COACHING, and a poor pass rush. [/quote]

You mean, Smoot. And there you go again with the pass rush! I don't care if you send the whole line and linebackers to blitz. The CB gets paid to stop the opposing receiver from catching the ball or scoring. That is what we are talking about, right? Champ Bailey the CB. Can he shut down receivers or not? That is what determines a great CB. Not the pass rush ability of the team. Everyone know that:)[/quote]

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:28 pm

Notice I said "ONE" of. You stated that I said he "IS" the greatest. Maybe you didn't take english in school because there is a difference.

Also you seem very stuck on the thought that football isn't a TEAM effort. It takes a TEAM to produce the results. Champ CAN'T do it on his own and takes the rest of the team to produce also and our pass rush wasn't producing and it hurt him and SMOOT.

Natural born Redskin · Mon May 17, 2004 10:55 pm

Okay, if my English sucks then you have poor reading skills because this topic is about Champ Bailey not the "TEAM", "TEAM" ability to produce or not produce a pass rush, what a CB does, and whether you play football or know it. My first response talked about Champ Bailey vs. Clinton Portis. I said that Champ is on the downhill while Portis is on the rise. I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? If you are talking about Champ Bailey and Champ alone, then I say he is again, "OVERRATED". He didn't play good last year, couldn't keep up with mediocre receivers, and will get burned by AFC receivers this coming up season.

P.S.
Champ was all about the money!

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:14 pm

CLL, here's what I'd call the "bottom line", if I can be so presumptuous as to offer it to one of the Founding Fathers. You are, after all, here a whole lot longer than a good many of us, including me.
Champ had no faith in us. Maybe we gave him no reason to have faith in us. Maybe he thought that, as good as Gibbs is (was ?), a losing record would prompt Dan Snyder to fire him and bring on yet another new coach. I recall that he was pushing hard for George Edwards to be retained. I even seem to recall that he said that if Edwards were dismissed, the team may as well dismiss him as well. He refused to negotiate during the season, and talks were put on hold because he simply put the kibosh on them himself. "Too much of a distraction", he said. As the season wore on, it was clear that Champ was, indeed, distracted. He did not play up to his own standard, but was selected to the Pro Bowl. Was it his play, or a lack of suitable NFC CB's ? Was it, perhaps, a popularity contest in which he was selected because of his name recognition ? Was Smoot less worthy ?
Did you watch the Pro Bowl ? During the announcements, he was the first player to come out running with his team helmet hidden from view. He wasn't wearing it. To me, that was the sign. I KNEW he wouldn't be back.
Now, I appreciate our standout players as much as the next guy. This conversation came about because "Bronco Bi-" started crowing about how Denver essentially fleeced the Redskins, giving us a RB with little chance to make a difference with our purported inferior O-Line.
Everything after that can be considered part of what some call an "Event Cascade". Basically, it became a thread that degrades the player who left and cheers on the guy we have.
We're all Redskins fans here. In our hearts, we don't mean to bash Champ, but pride and injury come into play very heavily.
At the end of the day, Champ has left, and Clinton Portis is here. We root for Portis because we HAVE to root for Portis. We have to believe that he is an adequate recompense for what we lost. Otherwise, we're all going to sit around, whining and moaning about what once was, but is no more.
Champ is a Bronco. A Bronco fan came into our house, and thumbed his nose at us. We went after him.
Do you believe that, if such a thing could ever happen, we wouldn't welcome back Champ Bailey with open arms (and/or wallets) ? Oh, we'd all be right back on the Bailey Bandwagon once again.
We got hurt, Chris. In our grief, we hurt the ones we love the most.
It's human nature.
Don't take it personally.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:15 pm

Maybe you can't read because if you could then you'd be able to read and understand how we got to this point in this conversation.

Once again Im going to reitterate that you can't judge him from one years play when his performance at times can be effected by his teammates.