What is Carlos Rogers doing in Zorn's doghouse?

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:18 pm

Rogers is going to leave and go to a team with a pass rush that isn't atrocious and become Walt Harris 2.0.

For those who don't remember, Walt was another "bum" Redskins DB who got burnt... He went to the 49er's and became probowl material.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:29 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Rogers is going to leave and go to a team with a pass rush that isn't atrocious and become Walt Harris 2.0.

For those who don't remember, Walt was another "bum" Redskins DB who got burnt... He went to the 49er's and became probowl material.

Um..OK. Interesting way to tell the story. But if you say so.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:33 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Rogers is going to leave and go to a team with a pass rush that isn't atrocious and become Walt Harris 2.0.

For those who don't remember, Walt was another "bum" Redskins DB who got burnt... He went to the 49er's and became probowl material.

Um..OK. Interesting way to tell the story. But if you say so.

What's there to tell? Walt magically didn't perform well here, he goes to a team with some semblance of a pass rush and excels. He didn't magically get better when he left. The same thing happened with Lloyd. He sucked here but when he left to the Bears, he was a decent target for them when healthy.

Rogers is a good DB in a broken system. I don't care who is back there, they're going to get fried due to a porous defensive line. Those guys play phenomenal considering their circumstances.

tribeofjudah · Post by **tribeofjudah** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:35 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Rogers is going to leave and go to a team with a pass rush that isn't atrocious and become Walt Harris 2.0.

For those who don't remember, Walt was another "bum" Redskins DB who got burnt... He went to the 49er's and became probowl material.

Um..OK. Interesting way to tell the story. But if you say so.

What's there to tell? Walt magically didn't perform well here, he goes to a team with some semblance of a pass rush and excels. He didn't magically get better when he left. The same thing happened with Lloyd. He sucked here but when he left to the Bears, he was a decent target for them when healthy.

Rogers is a good DB in a broken system. I don't care who is back there, they're going to get fried due to a porous defensive line. Those guys play phenomenal considering their circumstances.

Porous Dline until..........we get Fat Albert...!!!! Costs nothing to dream.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:43 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Rogers is going to leave and go to a team with a pass rush that isn't atrocious and become Walt Harris 2.0.

For those who don't remember, Walt was another "bum" Redskins DB who got burnt... He went to the 49er's and became probowl material.

I doubt that he's going to miraculously learn how to catch a football if he goes to another team.

funbunch65 · Post by **funbunch65** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:58 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Rogers is going to leave and go to a team with a pass rush that isn't atrocious and become Walt Harris 2.0.

For those who don't remember, Walt was another "bum" Redskins DB who got burnt... He went to the 49er's and became probowl material.

Um..OK. Interesting way to tell the story. But if you say so.

What's there to tell? Walt magically didn't perform well here, he goes to a team with some semblance of a pass rush and excels. He didn't magically get better when he left. The same thing happened with Lloyd. He sucked here but when he left to the Bears, he was a decent target for them when healthy.

Rogers is a good DB in a broken system. I don't care who is back there, they're going to get fried due to a porous defensive line. Those guys play phenomenal considering their circumstances.

Thats what I'm saying, we need to draft at least one pass rusher in 2009. If we can trade carlos off for a second rounder this will leave us free to snatch a premier OT in round 1 then turn around and draft a quality DE in round 2. It could look like this OT Andre Smith (stock is falling may be there at 13) and DE Tyson Jackson in the second. Thinking about that Jason Taylor trade makes me sick to my stomach.

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:59 pm

That's interesting. I didn't realize Walt Harris had done so well with the Niners much less that he'd made the Pro Bowl.

I'd like to see Rogers and Hall as our starting corners this year. Springs is always hurt.

cleg · Post by **cleg** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:35 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Rogers is going to leave and go to a team with a pass rush that isn't atrocious and become Walt Harris 2.0.

For those who don't remember, Walt was another "bum" Redskins DB who got burnt... He went to the 49er's and became probowl material.

Um..OK. Interesting way to tell the story. But if you say so.

What's there to tell? Walt magically didn't perform well here, he goes to a team with some semblance of a pass rush and excels. He didn't magically get better when he left. The same thing happened with Lloyd. He sucked here but when he left to the Bears, he was a decent target for them when healthy.

Rogers is a good DB in a broken system. I don't care who is back there, they're going to get fried due to a porous defensive line. Those guys play phenomenal considering their circumstances.

Carlos Rogers cannot catch a football. That simple fact cost the team games and has absolutly nothing to do with the system he is in. It's like when the second baseman cannot throw the ball to the shortstop covering - it don't matter how pretty the play was getting to the ball if he can throw, or in Carlos' case catch, it does not matter and the player is a liability.

ICEMAN · Post by **ICEMAN** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:41 pm

brad7686 wrote:It's an interesting situation really. I could definitely see Rogers getting traded if Hall is signed because Springs, Hall, and Smoot is manageable. The problem is that Springs will get hurt. But yet he is still on the team, which hinders playing time for the other corners, making them less useful and possibly tradeable. It's really a conundrum.

And let's not forget folks...Shawn Springs is our BEST conerback bar none! (Of course when healthy)!

ICEMAN · Post by **ICEMAN** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:43 pm

But I don't want to lose Carlos...just yet. I think he is a very good corner and great in run "D" support.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:56 pm

cleg wrote:Carlos Rogers cannot catch a football. That simple fact cost the team games and has absolutly nothing to do with the system he is in. It's like when the second baseman cannot throw the ball to the shortstop covering - it don't matter how pretty the play was getting to the ball if he can throw, or in Carlos' case catch, it does not matter and the player is a liability.

Yeah, you're right because Carlos is on offense, I forgot!!!

Our offensive players barely scored TD's and you wanna hold Carlos to the coals for not getting interceptions? When we did get turnovers we didn't capitalize off of them.

ICEMAN · Post by **ICEMAN** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:50 pm

Well...Carlos can't catch though...

VetSkinsFan · Post by **VetSkinsFan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:03 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
cleg wrote:Carlos Rogers cannot catch a football. That simple fact cost the team games and has absolutly nothing to do with the system he is in. It's like when the second baseman cannot throw the ball to the shortstop covering - it don't matter how pretty the play was getting to the ball if he can throw, or in Carlos' case catch, it does not matter and the player is a liability.

Yeah, you're right because Carlos is on offense, I forgot!!!

Our offensive players barely scored TD's and you wanna hold Carlos to the coals for not getting interceptions? When we did get turnovers we didn't capitalize off of them.

Give it up dude. There is logic, and then there is .... the argument in this thread. You can't argue with that.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:39 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
cleg wrote:Carlos Rogers cannot catch a football. That simple fact cost the team games and has absolutly nothing to do with the system he is in. It's like when the second baseman cannot throw the ball to the shortstop covering - it don't matter how pretty the play was getting to the ball if he can throw, or in Carlos' case catch, it does not matter and the player is a liability.

Yeah, you're right because Carlos is on offense, I forgot!!!

Our offensive players barely scored TD's and you wanna hold Carlos to the coals for not getting interceptions? When we did get turnovers we didn't capitalize off of them.

One thing really has nothing to do with the other. If Carlos fancies himself a top NFL corner and expects to get paid like one he has to start coming up with interceptions and making more game changing plays. Until then he is not going to be considered an elite cb. Other top defensive backs turn int's into big plays for their teams, Rogers can't do that on a consistent basis because he has terrible hands. Obviously this example is a little over-the-top, but would people look at Ed Reed the same way if he constantly dropped int's? He wouldn't be anywhere near as valuable to Ravens as he is now if he did that.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:06 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Rogers is going to leave and go to a team with a pass rush that isn't atrocious and become Walt Harris 2.0.

For those who don't remember, Walt was another "bum" Redskins DB who got burnt... He went to the 49er's and became probowl material.

Um..OK. Interesting way to tell the story. But if you say so.

What's there to tell? Walt magically didn't perform well here, he goes to a team with some semblance of a pass rush and excels. He didn't magically get better when he left. The same thing happened with Lloyd. He sucked here but when he left to the Bears, he was a decent target for them when healthy.

Rogers is a good DB in a broken system. I don't care who is back there, they're going to get fried due to a porous defensive line. Those guys play phenomenal considering their circumstances.

Walt did play well here. He had a prior serious injury and it was a question of how much cap we wanted to sign him to versus the risk of keeping him. That he went from sucking for us to playing great for SF just isn't the way it happened. Yes, he went on to play great for SF and IF we'd known he wasn't going to go down and he was going to play that well we would have kept him. But your rendition of the story is just one sided and self serving to your the Skins Suck agenda.

Anyway, OK, we're stupid. We can't coach, we can't evaluate talent. We can't use it when we have it, everyone who leaves us goes on to be in the pro-bowl. You're the big dog on the site who's going to tell us how much we suck and how stupid we are and shout down anyone who tries to disagree with that. You've said that and delivered. But SERIOUSLY, why are you here? Why don't you become a Pats fan since they aren't stupid and inept like we are?

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:18 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote:One thing really has nothing to do with the other. If Carlos fancies himself a top NFL corner and expects to get paid like one he has to...

That's pure speculation (maybe a little bull mixed in) until we see what happens between him and the team. He and/or his agent might talk up what he should make, but why should that surprise anyone? We had that discussion back when it happened, and it was such a side-comment type of thing that I don't think it should color every discussion on Rogers going forward.

It's one thing to say that he shouldn't get paid top dollar—and he shouldn't. . .don't think anyone here would argue that he should—but it's another thing entirely to call him "a liability" on the whole. The first argument makes sense; the second. . .well, I agree with VetSkins.

There's logic and then there are claims like that. Can't do much with 'em.

MDSKINSFAN · Post by **MDSKINSFAN** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:56 pm

VetSkinsFan wrote:If we trade Rogers and keep Springs to start, I'm not going ot be a happy camper.

Same here. I would not be happy. Why dont they just keep Hall, Rogers, and Smoot as the top 3 and cut Springs. That would make sense to me.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:59 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote:[One thing really has nothing to do with the other. If Carlos fancies himself a top NFL corner and expects to get paid like one he has to start coming up with interceptions and making more game changing plays.

This I don't disagree with. I've never said he should be paid top dollar. But to blame his drops for our losses is nuts IMO.

My examples in Lloyd and Walt are just ways to show that we have widespread issues that effect how the entire team plays. Players whom some feel aren't good could perform better if we had better surrouding peices. Our LB's and DB's will be healthier and more effective. Carlos may get more picks with a better pass rush cus he'll have more oppurtunities.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:33 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:[One thing really has nothing to do with the other. If Carlos fancies himself a top NFL corner and expects to get paid like one he has to start coming up with interceptions and making more game changing plays.

This I don't disagree with. I've never said he should be paid top dollar. But to blame his drops for our losses is nuts IMO.

My examples in Lloyd and Walt are just ways to show that we have widespread issues that effect how the entire team plays. Players whom some feel aren't good could perform better if we had better surrouding peices. Our LB's and DB's will be healthier and more effective. Carlos may get more picks with a better pass rush cus he'll have more oppurtunities.

Why is it nuts to blame some losses on Rogers' hands of stone. What is the #1 stat predictor for the outcome of a game? Yes, turnover differential! Rogers has had many chances to make game changing, game clinching plays, and has dropped the ball at a Rod Gardner rate. Actually, much worse than 50/50. Gardner was more like a 90/10 guy (even though everyone called him 50/50) and CRog is more like a 10/90 guy. Yes, I am saying he drops 9 out of 10 INTs and that might be being kind to him.

If that is just as much of a liabiltiy as having an O that can't score 17 points (oh, wait we had that too!)

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:39 am

skinsfan#33 wrote:Why is it nuts to blame some losses on Rogers' hands of stone.

Because you're equating interceptions to automatic points. When our defense got turnovers the offense rarely capitalized off of them. I don't see how him getting picks would undeniably win us games.

Hall got a slew of interceptions and correct me if I'm wrong, he didn't return any of them for 6 points. The onus falls back on the offense to score and...well...
:lol:

VetSkinsFan · Post by **VetSkinsFan** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:59 am

Walt did play well here. He had a prior serious injury and it was a question of how much cap we wanted to sign him to versus the risk of keeping him. That he went from sucking for us to playing great for SF just isn't the way it happened. Yes, he went on to play great for SF and IF we'd known he wasn't going to go down and he was going to play that well we would have kept him. But your rendition of the story is just one sided and self serving to your the Skins Suck agenda

I don't have a skins suck agenda and I don't see it this way. I see Walt was a liability, not a contibutor. Maybe a system issue, maybe a coach issue. I didn't see him performing here.

On a side note, he does catch better than Rogers :twisted:

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:02 am

VetSkinsFan wrote:I don't have a skins suck agenda and I don't see it this way. I see Walt was a liability, not a contibutor. Maybe a system issue, maybe a coach issue. I didn't see him performing here.

On a side note, he does catch better than Rogers

It very well could have been a system issue, the same thing happened to Hall. That is a very valid point. Although I do like to stir the pot, that particular post wasn't intended to come off like that. :lol:

Which is why I ignored the tirade.

VetSkinsFan · Post by **VetSkinsFan** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:04 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
VetSkinsFan wrote:I don't have a skins suck agenda and I don't see it this way. I see Walt was a liability, not a contibutor. Maybe a system issue, maybe a coach issue. I didn't see him performing here.

On a side note, he does catch better than Rogers

It very well could have been a system issue, the same thing happened to Hall. That is a very valid point. Although I do like to stir the pot, that particular post wasn't intended to come off like that. Which is why I ignored the tirade.

You know I'll take your leftovers.

ICEMAN · Post by **ICEMAN** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:53 am

VetSkinsFan wrote:If we trade Rogers and keep Springs to start, I'm not going ot be a happy camper.

Springs starting...I don't have a problem with...but I don't want to lose Carlos either.

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:07 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
VetSkinsFan wrote:I don't have a skins suck agenda and I don't see it this way. I see Walt was a liability, not a contibutor. Maybe a system issue, maybe a coach issue. I didn't see him performing here.

On a side note, he does catch better than Rogers

It very well could have been a system issue, the same thing happened to Hall. That is a very valid point. Although I do like to stir the pot, that particular post wasn't intended to come off like that. Which is why I ignored the tirade.

Harris didn't do well in our system, plain and simple; he's a zone corner, always has been, who was forced to play man cover with the Redskins. When he went to the Niners, he played in a more zone coverage system that just fit him better.

And it had nothing to do with the pass rush, or the players around him, as you intimate below:

Rogers is going to leave and go to a team with a pass rush that isn't atrocious and become Walt Harris 2.0.

For those who don't remember, Walt was another "bum" Redskins DB who got burnt... He went to the 49er's and became probowl material.

See you're back to knee-jerk posts. In 2005 (Harris' last season with the Redskins), the Skins had 32 sacks. In 2006 (Harris' first season with the Niners), they had 34 sacks. It's not like those extra 2 sacks per year meant the difference between an "atrocious" pass rush and a good one. And the Niners defense of 2006 most certainly did not have better players than the Redskins Defense of 2005. He went from a top 10 defense in 2005 to the worst defense in the NFL in 2006.

The Skins in 2005 were 9th overall in defense (both points and yards); the 2006 Niners were 26th in defense in yards, and 32nd overall in points against.

Seriously, I know that the period between roughly mid-September to July, you turn all sorts of insane-o pessismistic about the Redskins, but you may want to do a little research to support your anti-Redskins rants once in awhile.

And for what it's worth, Brandon Lloyd in 10 games for the Bears had 26 catches, 364 yards, and 2 TDs. For a #2 receiver, that's not success; those numbers are seriously pathetic (Per game average of 2.6 catches and 36 yards).