Should the benefit of the doubt for JC should last until:

[Skinsfan55]

Yes, I feel that the Front office has shown profound incompetence, greed and failure during their tenure.

Their year long tenure?

This kind of statement derails your whole argument.

Also, how have the Redskins showed themselves to be greedy? Dan Snyder spends tons of money on this team.

[Irn-Bru]

Also, how have the Redskins showed themselves to be greedy?

In the way that they treat fans. Look at ticket prices, concession prices. . .hell, ALL prices in comparison to fan experience. I think if you lived near DC and/or had attended any Redskins events in the last 10 years you'd know about it. Just ask anyone here on the board: it seems like it gets worse every year.

[PulpExposure]

Also, how have the Redskins showed themselves to be greedy?

In the way that they treat fans. Look at ticket prices, concession prices. . .hell, ALL prices in comparison to fan experience. I think if you lived near DC and/or had attended any Redskins events in the last 10 years you'd know about it. Just ask anyone here on the board: it seems like it gets worse every year.

More egregious was when he charged for fan attendance at training camp.

However, I was very surprised to read that Snyder has only increased ticket prices twice during his ownership. Many teams yearly increase ticket prices.

The Washington Redskins announced Jan. 14 that general admission ticket prices for the 2009 season would remain unchanged for the third straight year.

“We work hard to hold the line on price increases, and are obviously sensitive to the economic realities faced by our fans,” said Mitch Gershman, the team’s chief operating officer. “We have fantastic fan support as evidenced by the more than 200,000 people on our waiting list for season tickets, and we try hard to maintain price stability for the best fans in the NFL.”

Since 1999, the team has increased general admission ticket prices only twice (2000 and 2006), a rarity among U.S. sports franchises.

By comparison:

In a letter that will reach some fans as early as tomorrow, the Ravens are notifying season-ticket holders the prices of their seats will increase between $5 to $15 per ticket for the 2009 season.

<snip>

The Ravens, who have increased ticket prices every other season since 2001, said the evaluation process was "very thoughtful and detailed."

[VetSkinsFan]

Also, how have the Redskins showed themselves to be greedy?

In the way that they treat fans. Look at ticket prices, concession prices. . .hell, ALL prices in comparison to fan experience. I think if you lived near DC and/or had attended any Redskins events in the last 10 years you'd know about it. Just ask anyone here on the board: it seems like it gets worse every year.

More egregious was when he charged for fan attendance at training camp.

However, I was very surprised to read that Snyder has only increased ticket prices twice during his ownership. Many teams yearly increase ticket prices.

The Washington Redskins announced Jan. 14 that general admission ticket prices for the 2009 season would remain unchanged for the third straight year.

“We work hard to hold the line on price increases, and are obviously sensitive to the economic realities faced by our fans,” said Mitch Gershman, the team’s chief operating officer. “We have fantastic fan support as evidenced by the more than 200,000 people on our waiting list for season tickets, and we try hard to maintain price stability for the best fans in the NFL.”

Since 1999, the team has increased general admission ticket prices only twice (2000 and 2006), a rarity among U.S. sports franchises.

That's b/c a beer will be $9 this year

[PulpExposure]

That's b/c a beer will be $9 this year

Yeah it's absurd. Was beer as expensive at Raljon before Snyder bought the team?

[SkinsFreak]

Also, how have the Redskins showed themselves to be greedy?

In the way that they treat fans. Look at ticket prices, concession prices. . .hell, ALL prices in comparison to fan experience. I think if you lived near DC and/or had attended any Redskins events in the last 10 years you'd know about it. Just ask anyone here on the board: it seems like it gets worse every year.

You guys do realize that the Redskins prices for tickets and concessions aren't any higher than many teams around the league, right? I can understand that winning makes paying high prices more tolerable, but the Skins weren't even in the top five during the 2008 season. And the concession prices in DC ($8 for a beer) are exactly the same as the concession prices charged at all three NFL stadiums in Florida, venues I've personally visited and can attest to. Winning definitely matters, you can always sell a winner, but supply and demand can also play a role in increased ticket prices.

The average NFL ticket has jumped about $5 a year for each of the past four seasons to a leaguewide $72.20 -- up nearly 8 percent from last year.

The range of ticket prices around the league is wide: At the low end, fans of the Buffalo Bills pay about $51, the only team cheaper than the Browns. The ceiling is about $118 per seat to watch almost-perfect New England -- the first franchise to hit a triple-digit average ticket price.

The Patriots raised ticket prices almost 30 percent this season following a 16-0 regular-season run and gut-wrenching Super Bowl loss to the New York Giants.

[SkinsFreak]

Most expensive tickets in the NFL

November 30, 2008

So which teams have the most expensive tickets in the NFL? Below is data for the 2008 NFL season compiled by Team Marketing Report. A few observations before we get into the numbers.

* Kudos to the Buffalo Bills for having both the lowest average ticket price ($51.24) and lowest Fan Cost Index ($298.96). The Bills are the only team to have a FCI below $300. I hope that change if the Bills start to play more games in Toronto to lure more corporate dollars.
* The NFL average for ticket price is $72.20 and $396.36 for Fan Cost Index.
* Expect the Giants, Jets and Cowboys average ticket price to go up dramatically next season once they move into their new stadiums.
* The Chiefs are absolutely ripping off their loyal fans. Top 10 in league for average ticket price and bottom 5 in league for performance.
* It’s only 450 miles from Boston, Massachusetts to Buffalo, New York, a relatively short distance between NFL cities. But it will still cost you twice as much to attend a Pats game as it will a Bills game.
* Patriots fans sure are paying for their team’s success on the field. The Pats average ticket price is 30% higher than the next closest team (Bucs) and their Fan Cost Index is $100 more than the next closest team (Bears). Now I know what Bill Simmons was talking about.

Rank NFL Team Average Ticket Price Fan Cost Index
1 New England Patriots $ 117.84 $ 596.25
2 Tamba Bay Buccaneers $ 90.13 $ 483.02
3 Chicago Bears $ 88.33 $ 484.31
4 New York Giants $ 88.06 $ 480.74
5 New York Jets $ 86.99 $ 476.26
6 Dallas Cowboys $ 84.12 $ 435.49
7 San Diego Chargers $ 81.39 $ 436.06
8 Indianapolis Colts $ 81.13 $ 435.52
9 Kansas City Chiefs $ 80.69 $ 422.72
10 Washington Redskins $ 79.13 $ 441.43
11 Baltimore Ravens $ 77.20 $ 425.81
12 Denver Broncos $ 76.75 $ 400.01
13 Minnesota Vikings $ 73.23 $ 386.92
14 San Francisco 49ers $ 70.55 $ 376.71
15 Cincinnati Bengals $ 69.85 $ 387.91
16 Philadelphia Eagles $ 69.00 $ 383.50
17 St. Louis Rams $ 68.28 $ 387.63
18 Pittsburgh Steelers $ 67.47 $ 384.38
19 Houston Texans $ 66.69 $ 376.75
20 Detroit Lions $ 66.39 $ 383.57
21 Miami Dolphins $ 66.11 $ 368.44
22 Arizona Cardinals $ 65.08 $ 356.31
23 Atlanta Falcons $ 63.95 $ 356.30
24 Green Bay Packers $ 63.39 $ 354.45
25 Carolina Panthers $ 63.32 $ 330.67
26 Oakland Raiders $ 62.23 $ 359.90
27 New Orleans Saints $ 62.22 $ 335.89
28 Seattle Seahawks $ 61.25 $ 364.49
29 Tennessee Titans $ 58.55 $ 347.19
30 Jacksonville Jaguars $ 55.30 $ 302.09
31 Cleveland Browns $ 54.41 $ 323.66
32 Buffalo Bills $ 51.24 $ 298.96

Nine NFL teams have higher average ticket prices. Link

[Chris Luva Luva]

The Redskins should be in the bottom 10 in regards to prices...

[CanesSkins26]

Lets not forget that Snyder charged fans $25 to park and $5 for a bottle of water on Fan "Appreciation" Day.

[Irn-Bru]

First thing's first: keep in mind that I talked about prices in comparison to fan experience.

Nine NFL teams have higher average ticket prices. Link

I'll let someone else rant about Snyder's shady activity with fans re-selling tickets and stub-hub. I'll just say there's a reason we couldn't fill more than half the stadium with Redskins fans when the Steelers came to town. It is difficult to find tickets on the cheap, and this is the case because of Snyder's direct action.

The invoice date for paying for season tickets keeps getting pushed back, too. You have to pay at the beginning of March for seats in September. Some people on this board have had to sell their season tickets because of it.

Snyder is a snake-oil salesman when it comes to seats in his stadium. Have you seen the reports of the Redskins calling board members offering for them to move up four rows for "only" $400 a ticket? Do that 10 years in a row and you'll be in the lower section!

Now, compare all of that to fan experience. Is FedEx a good place to watch the game? Eh. It's basically a big concrete bowl. Obstructed (. . .oh, sorry Mr. Snyder: "partially obstructed") seats that should never have been put there. AWFUL cash parking situations while half of the stadium's parking remains empty. . .because those parking passes can be damn expensive. Especially considering your car might be broken into during the game since there is little to no security (I've been to 2 games, at both I knew someone whose car was broken into, and in one case the windows were shattered).

Just ask CLL about the (lack of) a proper big screen for replays.


And, we should NEVER forget:

Lets not forget that Snyder charged fans $25 to park and $5 for a bottle of water on Fan "Appreciation" Day.

And he wouldn't let anyone bring water in, and it was 90+ degrees and humid out. In some ways this has been ingrained in my mind as THE Snyder anecdote. Despicable.


Maybe the Patriots can charge more because their team is on fire. But look at the Redskins' on-field performance: has it been top-10 over the last 10 years? Frankly the raw prices don't bother me too much, but the prices in comparison to fan experience strikes me as awful.

[Countertrey]

Sooooo...

Are y'all saying that JC should get the benefit of the doubt until the Redskins are in the top 3 in NFL ticket prices?

[Irn-Bru]

Exactly. Geez you guys are slow.

[Deadskins]

Sooooo...

Are y'all saying that JC should get the benefit of the doubt until the Redskins are in the top 3 in NFL ticket prices?

Maybe if The Danny jacks up the ticket prices, JC and the rest of the team will elevate their play to match.

[PulpExposure]

I'll just say there's a reason we couldn't fill more than half the stadium with Redskins fans when the Steelers came to town

There were several (the night before Election Day being one of them, with DC traffic another, way outside of Snyder's control), and to lay the blame solely at the feet of Snyder's dubious ticketing policies is a bit shortsighted.

[Fios]

I'll just say there's a reason we couldn't fill more than half the stadium with Redskins fans when the Steelers came to town

There were several (the night before Election Day being one of them, with DC traffic another, way outside of Snyder's control), and to lay the blame solely at the feet of Snyder's dubious ticketing policies is a bit shortsighted.

Agreed, cost is a detriment, no question, but the though of getting to and subsequently leaving FedEx -- on a normal game day -- is enough to dissuade me. This area's traffic situation owes to insane sprawl, a pathetic investment in mass transit and inept local governments who have little to no foresight (I'm looking at you Prince William County).

[old-timer]

They constantly say the owner is an ignorant fool, the front office and scouting staff are stupid, the coach is an idiot and the starting QB sucks. Well, it must really suck for them, but misery does love company.

Let's make clear and straight:

Yes, I feel that the owner is not and will never be an NFL expert.

Yes, I feel that the Front office has shown profound incompetence, greed and failure during their tenure.

The scouting staff may or may not be that great. The fact is that the talent discovery from young inexpensive players is better in other teams.

The head coach is NOT an idiot. In fact, we want him to suvcceed and receive enough time to show what he can do.

The QB does not suck. He simply has not been and probably will not be the franchise QB who may carry this team to success. The coin is in the air but the whole point of this thread is that the make or break time is approaching more rapidly than some of you seem to suggest.

That's all. There are no "loyal homers" and "disloyal fans". There are just different perspectives that are debatable more often than not. But the RECORD is the RECORD and the best of intentions and the greener pastures come every spring can do NOTHING to change the fact that the Skins under the ownership of the current owner have been often the laughingstock of teh NFL. He is, together with Jerry Jones, the owners everybody in the NFL love to hate.

Happy now?

I thought so. I don't care.

Despite 10 years of consistent mediocrity, Skinsfreak continues, for some reason, to have blind faith in this management which has demonstrated amply that it does not know what it is doing. I think he roots for the Snyderattos, not the Redskins. Maybe he should change his avatar to Snyderfreak? Just a suggestion.

[old-timer]

The way I see it, Jason Campbell was handed the starting job from the git-go. That may have worked out alright if he was some extraordinary talent. But the last few years have shown that he is ordinary most of the time, sometimes really, really bad, and exceptional I would say never. Many, many QB's could have done as well as he has considering the advantages he has been given.

Campbell needs to fight for his starts from day one of training camp like every prospective Redskins QB has done. If that means bringing in someone else to light a fire under his butt, so be it.

[PulpExposure]

They constantly say the owner is an ignorant fool, the front office and scouting staff are stupid, the coach is an idiot and the starting QB sucks. Well, it must really suck for them, but misery does love company.

Let's make clear and straight:

Yes, I feel that the owner is not and will never be an NFL expert.

Yes, I feel that the Front office has shown profound incompetence, greed and failure during their tenure.

The scouting staff may or may not be that great. The fact is that the talent discovery from young inexpensive players is better in other teams.

The head coach is NOT an idiot. In fact, we want him to suvcceed and receive enough time to show what he can do.

The QB does not suck. He simply has not been and probably will not be the franchise QB who may carry this team to success. The coin is in the air but the whole point of this thread is that the make or break time is approaching more rapidly than some of you seem to suggest.

That's all. There are no "loyal homers" and "disloyal fans". There are just different perspectives that are debatable more often than not. But the RECORD is the RECORD and the best of intentions and the greener pastures come every spring can do NOTHING to change the fact that the Skins under the ownership of the current owner have been often the laughingstock of teh NFL. He is, together with Jerry Jones, the owners everybody in the NFL love to hate.

Happy now?

I thought so. I don't care.

Despite 10 years of consistent mediocrity, Skinsfreak continues, for some reason, to have blind faith in this management which has demonstrated amply that it does not know what it is doing. I think he roots for the Snyderattos, not the Redskins. Maybe he should change his avatar to Snyderfreak? Just a suggestion.

Oldtimer, in my opinion, posting this garbage is just as bad as when people post that posters critical of the Redskins aren't Redskins fans. Both are equally idiotic posts.

[Redskin in Canada]

Oldtimer, in my opinion, posting this garbage is just as bad as when people post that posters critical of the Redskins aren't Redskins fans. Both are equally idiotic posts.

And you guys wonder why is the stadium filled with fans of opposing teams at home?

Many fans have reached a level of frustration accumulated over a decade of mediocrity and failure.

Everybody I know who had the PRIVILEGE to attend games before FedEx was built experienced in person something that is GONE in terms of success, fan brotherhood, and unity with the team.

The atmosphere in FedEx cannot and should not be blamed entirely on Snyder but a large part of it by favouring corporate sales and putting mediocre teams on the field more often than not is directly attributable to him.

To connect with the topic of the thread, the TIME given to JC to prove himself and the preparation of a Plan B, are the keys for Zorn to keep the team together next season but most importantly, this period will ALSO be critical to Dan Snyder if he does not want to lose the critical mass of remaining loyal fans who attend every week.

Zorn risks losing the players. Snyder may lose the loyal fans.

I do not claim that the team may become unprofitable. That will sadly never happen. It will simply mean an increasing lousier atmosphere with greater numbers of opposing fans and corporate attendants every season.

[PulpExposure]

The atmosphere in FedEx cannot and should not be blamed entirely on Snyder but a large part of it by favouring corporate sales and putting mediocre teams on the field more often than not is directly attributable to him.

Yeah, this is true. However, keep in mind that: (1) we were even worse before Snyder took over in 1999 (no playoffs after the 1992 season until he took over, and some really bad years in there); and (2) I think Snyder dislikes FedEx as much as many of the fans do, but it makes absolutely no sense for him to build another stadium now...when the FedEx monstrosity is only about 10 years old.

To connect with the topic of the thread, the TIME given to JC to prove himself and the preparation of a Plan B, are the keys for Zorn to keep the team together next season but most importantly, this period will ALSO be critical to Dan Snyder if he does not want to lose the critical mass of remaining loyal fans who attend every week.

I agree. If Snyder shows patience with this process, and we start working a bit more long-term with our teambuilding vision (and I do think the last 2 years showed progress with respect to that), it'll be very encouraging.

Barring a complete disaster, if Snyder blows it all up again next year...sigh...

[SkinsFreak]

Many fans have reached a level of frustration accumulated over a decade of mediocrity and failure.

That's fair and I can understand and appreciate the frustration. It's not like everyone isn't frustrated. You may have some valid points and there may be some truth to what you're saying, I just have a difference of opinion regarding how to deal with it.

Many, many teams struggle in this league. The Browns have been in a state of mediocrity forever. Other teams, like the Eagles, field decent teams from year-to-year, but to date, don't have a single Super Bowl victory to show for it. So what are the fans to do?

It's a game. Even if an owner fields the best players and organizes the most experienced group of coaches, including a HoF'er, it still doesn't guarantee anything. It's a game. There are 31 other opposing organizations trying to do the same thing and it's very difficult to win in this league. Snyder may have put together the most experienced group of coaches under Gibbs the league has ever seen, but it still doesn't guarantee anything, as we saw firsthand.

In all seriousness, I honestly believe Snyder is trying to organize a winner and isn't trying to "stick-it" to the fans. Has every move he's made paid off? Of course not. But I believe he's trying very hard to deliver a winner for the fans. He's not an expert, I agree, but I don't think he claims to be one either. I believe he has good intentions. That's my opinion, but I agree, and we all know, it hasn't worked out just right yet.

So, what are fans to do? Sulk? Piss and moan? Pack up and go home?

As fans, we have no control. Therefore, all we can do from year-to-year is hope and pray for a championship. Is that blind faith? Perhaps. Is there another kind? I mean... yeah, in the spirit of sport and team, I hold out faith that my favorite team can be the champs. That's all I can do.

But does pessimism trump optimism? Not in my book. Does it accomplish anything to keep hacking on the past? Not for me. I would rather look forward than backwards. My eyes are in the front of my head, and if God had intended for me to look backwards, he would've put eyes in the back of my head.

So for me, I just try to stay positive and share optimism with my brothers. I tend to look for the good in people and hope for the best. That's the way I approach this game and life itself. This is a game and I fully understand you can't win all of the time. But I would never just turn my back on the team. If some fans want to sell their season tickets and boycott Snyder and the Redskins, that's fine, that's their prerogative. There are plenty others standing in line ready to take their place.

And my love of the Redskins, old-timer, has nothing to do with the owner, the GM or any single individual. It's larger than that and began long before the current owner or any staff member came aboard. I support the Redskins... period.

Jason Campbell should get as long as the coaches deem it appropriate. Zorn cut his boy Plackemeier and previously benched Jansen, a tenured Redskin, for poor performances, so I believe Zorn will have the stones to bench Campbell if a lack of performance warrants it.

[Chris Luva Luva]

In all seriousness, I honestly believe Snyder is trying to organize a winner and isn't trying to "stick-it" to the fans.

Whether he is trying to "stick-it" to the fans or not, he's not doing a good job of proving otherwise.

He's not an expert, I agree, but I don't think he claims to be one either. I believe he has good intentions.

In a way he's claiming to be an expert by not hiring an expert. We're left waiting why he's learning on the job and at times repeatedly jaming a square peg in a round hole.

[SkinsFreak]

He's not an expert, I agree, but I don't think he claims to be one either. I believe he has good intentions.

In a way he's claiming to be an expert by not hiring an expert. We're left waiting why he's learning on the job and at times repeatedly jaming a square peg in a round hole.

I absolutely don't agree here. Vinny's level of "expertise" may be debatable, but he has a lot of experience and Snyder may feel he's qualified. Gibbs gave him support and backed him up as well.

Further, it's not debatable who was in charge during the Gibbs 2.0 era and it was clear who was calling the shots. Gibbs and Williams were calling the shots and when Snyder hired Gibbs back, NO ONE questioned Gibbs expertise as the decision maker. Perhaps now, but not then. So Snyder did, in fact, hire a HoF expert to be the decision maker.

[Irn-Bru]

Skinsfreak, when you elaborate on your view in long-form then I think that perhaps there isn't that much I disagree with. Many of the points you raise are fine in themselves, as far as they go.

What's always telling, though, is how someone reacts to news in a few words. The sky-is-falling fans have their own approach. Others tend to knee-jerk towards saying "let the pro's handle it" or "this could turn out well, let's wait and see." Sometimes people think it's ONLY rational to have one response or the other. So any support for JC is taken by some to mean total support for JC, etc.

I tend to be on the patient-optimistic side of things—I really don't see how it could be fun to be a fan otherwise. But I do think that guys like RiC are justified in making observations based on results. And I've been persuaded over the last couple of years that the systemic problems we do have can be traced directly to the ownership at Redskins park.

I think we can agree that Snyder has owned the team long enough that the he can be held responsible for the product he puts on the field. Chance can hit any one season, and maybe if he only owned the team for 3-5 years we could say that he's still getting traction.

But it's now been 10 years. I think there's some room, as fans, to point out the systemic flaws that are keeping this team down. No, it doesn't mean anything will change. But it doesn't follow that all we do is whining or complaining. I think that smart fans can take 10 years of data and discuss it reasonably, coming to conclusions that are grounded in reality. Maybe you're saying that's beyond our ability, but I disagree.

There's more to being a fan than sitting on the bandwagon. . .I happen to be on the bandwagon, but I also enjoy the critical discussions. (Complainers, etc., not so much)

[SkinsFreak]

There's more to being a fan than sitting on the bandwagon. . .I happen to be on the bandwagon, but I also enjoy the critical discussions. (Complainers, etc., not so much)

I absolutely agree and have no problems with critical discussions, to which I've also contributed. It's the habitual and endless complaining, pessimism and the sky-is-falling approach taken by a few around here that nerves me. If a poster is always 100% negative in their posts, then their endless criticisms lack merit. RiC is not one of the posters, by any means, and posts many positive comments.

I just don't agree with the notion of boycotting the team to spite an owner, who I believe, IS trying to field a championship. Perhaps he's made mistakes, but at least he's trying. If Snyder refused to spend money upgrading the team, much like the Bills and Cardinals owners previously have done in the past, then I could understand the notion of a boycott.

It's a complete falsehood that Snyder overcharges for merchandise, concessions and tickets when compared with the league. Perhaps the "fan experience" is a relevant concern, but the guy is trying and I at least give him credit for the effort. I've always had a great time at games at FedEx and my "fan experience" has always been pretty good. If others have had a bad time, I can respect that, but I can't speak of it personally. I've always had good experiences. Certainly better when they win, but never horrible even when they've lost.

And I know going in that a beer will cost $8 and I'll most likely drop a few c-notes on the day for tickets, tailgating and a few adult beverages during the game. But it's the same amount whether I attend games in DC, Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville, Phoenix or Oakland... all cities I've personally attended games at in the past few years. And if my nephew's high school football team has a losing season, (high school football is HUGELY popular in Florida and many non-family members attend games) I don't hear fans start complaining about the prices for tickets and hot dogs.

I don't know. I'm not saying Snyder is perfect and isn't pervious to criticism. But when the offense struggles in the 2nd half of the season and the owner is blamed, I find it difficult to comprehend that. But I do understand what you're saying, Irn-Bru and I agree.

Sometimes people think it's ONLY rational to have one response or the other. So any support for JC is taken by some to mean total support for JC, etc

And that's my point. Any support shown for the team is interpreted as being in love with Snyder and Cerrato, which is just ludicrous. I don't hate them to the same degree as others, but my team support isn't linked directly to the owner or VP.

I tend to be on the patient-optimistic side of things—I really don't see how it could be fun to be a fan otherwise.

Agreed.