BLOW IT UP!!

DarthMonk · Post by **DarthMonk** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:34 pm

Marty came here. Payroll was a then-record 100 MILLION dollars. Marty kept 22 guys. He replaced 31. 13 of the new guys were ROOKIES. He FIRED VINNY. He reduced payroll to 53 MILLION by letting go of almost all the high priced talent (can you say Deion?).

We went 0-5 and then 8-3 the rest of the way with TONY BANKS at QB.

We need to do this again. Let go of (release, trade, whatever makes sense) virtually every high priced guy. Accumulate compensatory picks. Pick LINEMEN. Find a runner. They are everywhere. If the hole is there Rock or Betts or some other guy (did we cut a guy named Mason?) we never heard of who costs less than 1 million can run through it and if it's not there he can slam it up in there for a yard or two. We should NEVER spend big bucks or 1st round picks on a runner.

Many teams have shown us we could be better than we are now in TWO years while getting YOUNGER and CHEAPER.

DarthMonk

skinz74 · Post by **skinz74** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:45 pm

'Fraid I'm going to having to agree with Monk on this one. While we all have our favorite players, our ultimate allegiance is supposed to be the team. These "core" players are sucking the life (not to mention payroll) out of this team. I would love to see an injection of youth and wise football decisions. Personally, I don't think Allen is the answer, but I'm pretty sure so far that Vinny isn't either. The only way we are going to attract quality personnel (staff, etc.) is if we start making smart football decisions.

$.02

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:25 pm

I have to say that, the more I study the team this offseason, the more I am finding myself in agreement with the 'blow it up' mentality. The only unit I feel really good about is our secondary. The RBs are still a very good unit, IMO. LBs will be okay for another year at the most, but we need some fresh talent there, too. I'm also on record as supporting JC for another year before looking to replace him.

But it all starts with the lines, and blowing both of them up seems like the only true way forward, IMO.

Bob 0119 · Post by **Bob 0119** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:21 pm

See I disagree.

It's easy to feel hopeless with so many posters beating the drum about how much the Redskins suck, but when you really look at it, they aren't too far off the mark of being a really good team.

We had the fourth (yes fourth) ranked defense in the league (not the division). That is a good thing.

Make a few changes on offense including personel and coaching strategy, and replace the kicker I think the 'Skins will be in good shape.

Much better shape than they would be if they cut everyone, and put together a 53-man roster with three draft picks and 50 low-priced free agents.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:38 pm

Bob 0119 wrote:It's easy to feel hopeless with so many posters beating the drum about how much the Redskins suck, but when you really look at it, they aren't too far off the mark of being a really good team.

Yeah, it's the posters. The years of mediocrity have nothing to do about it.

This franchise has been under the impression that they're 1-2 players away from being a contender for as long as I can remember. They feed that BS to the masses and they eat it right up. It's a lie, it's a crock.

Blow it up.

TincoSkin · Post by **TincoSkin** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:40 pm

'blow it up' is extream. we can selectivly blow up players that are old and expensive. that doesnt mean take out CP or jump ship with JC. but our O line is old and over paid, our D line is old and over paid. our LBs are blah. to me these seem like the most important parts of a team. blow that part up (and maybe expensive wide outs) and replace with young guns while we grow a new class of back up RBs and wide outs.

dont blow it all up. blow up what sucks

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:58 pm

I don't feel hopeless, and I think I've got a clear enough record on THN for not doing knee-jerk reactions alongside the more. . .unstable. . .board members. Yet I still think that we should do something that looks a little closer to blowing the team up than tweaking one or two things.

Our defense is very good statistically but there is one area where we are very weak: QB pressure and sacks. We simply haven't been a threat to other teams. Our younger DTs have had enough time to prove themselves, and I think Golston and Montgomery will only ever serve in the role of being cogs. Now, cogs are necessary for every team. You need quality players that can come in off the bench and perform. They will be that for us, no doubt in my mind, but we have to put some talent in front of them.

Our offensive line was relatively healthy throughout this past season, but they still fell apart as the year progressed. This was no coincidence. Our problems during the 2-6 stretch started there.

I don't think our WRs are serviceable any longer. Moss' role should diminish over the next 3-5 years (before his retirement) as we find the new talent that will be our #1 and, eventually, #2 receivers. He will continue to contribute. I've already been vocal on THN about ARE.

These kinds of changes are not tweaks. Now, why do I advocate this kind of change after an 8-8 year for Zorn? Why do I see 8-8 as the glass-half-empty? (By the way, I'm still an optimist!) I think for two reasons:

(1) First, the obvious. Yes, we went 8-8, but we also were 6-2 before landing at 8-8. It would be one thing to go 2-6 but finish 8-8 (didn't the Chargers do that?). But we clearly started strong and then had a noticeable decline. In my mind, 8-8 after starting 6-2 is more than a coincidence—just like 8-8 after starting 0-5 is more than a coincidence.

(2) My second reason is a more subtle version of point (1) above. Our decline seemed to me a systemic thing. Not just frustration or a couple of bad games. My own perspective on watching the team play was that the team didn't have what it took to win. The Pittsburgh and Ravens games were perfect examples of this. I really don't think we were ever 'in' either game. We got dominated. To my eyes, both of those teams were playing on a different level than us. Both times that we played the NY Giants I had a similar feeling: "we just aren't on the same tier as these guys."

Our most impressive wins of the year came against Philly (2), Arizona, and Dallas. Philly was an uneven team this year, Arizona had their typical road-game troubles, and Dallas was simply overrated. I'm not trying to minimize our achievements in these games, but what I'm saying is that our most impressive games are somewhat qualified and our least impressive games made us look really bad.

So I've come to the conclusion that we're not going to 'make it work' with just one or two more tweaks. I think when Gibbs was in charge of the team we were at about that level. Gibbs was missing a good quarterback, a Monk-type receiver, and a dominant D-Lineman (boy, did welch call that exactly back in the day, or what?!). If he had those pieces, I think we would have gone to an NFC Championship game, at least. (Not to mention Sean's death.)

But here we are, now two years removed from when Gibbs was in complete control. Griffin is DONE. Springs is DONE. Taylor, unfortunately, did not work out, and I don't think he will. Moss is not likely to regain much form. Marcus Washington is likely done. Jansen is DONE. One of our two guards is likely done. If Fletcher plays another year at a high level we will be very lucky. We will not ride Clinton Portis to the Superbowl the way the Cardinals rode Fitzgerald; he will be a role player, not a superstar.

Most of these guys I just listed were good enough 2-3 years ago to be a part of a Superbowl team. All of them have lost their edge, and in this league—a game of inches, after all—that's all it takes to go from playoff contender, to 8-8 mediocrity, to a 4-12 we-need-help-badly kind of team.

SkinsFreak · Post by **SkinsFreak** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:14 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
Bob 0119 wrote:It's easy to feel hopeless with so many posters beating the drum about how much the Redskins suck, but when you really look at it, they aren't too far off the mark of being a really good team.

Yeah, it's the posters. The years of mediocrity have nothing to do about it.

This franchise has been under the impression that they're 1-2 players away from being a contender for as long as I can remember. They feed that BS to the masses and they eat it right up. It's a lie, it's a crock.

Blow it up.

The team drafted 10 players last year and ALL 10 made the opening day 53-man roster. That means 10 other guys were cut or released to make room for the 10 rookies. That's not indicative of a team that thinks they're 1 or 2 players away from being a contender. With a new coach, a new offensive system and 10 rookies that made the team, I honestly believe last year was the start of a rebuilding process.

I actually see both sides here. We desperately need some youth on the lines and a RT, OG and a DT seem paramount. I also think we need an OLB very soon. That's not necessarily blowing it up, but I don't have a problem with cutting some of the older, past their prime, high priced veterans. I actually think that's going to happen anyway with many of them, assuming each individual case is economically and financially feasible.

But I also see Bob's point and I agree with him to a large degree. I don't believe we are that far off. An 8-8 record with a new offensive coaching staff and a completely new offensive system, a West Coast system that is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum system wise from what they've been in for over a decade, is not as bad as some would assert. In my opinion, even if the exact same personnel was used going into the 2009 season, just having a full offseason and another season is Zorn's system and I think they're better.

I see light at the end of the tunnel, but of course you have to keep your eyes open and looking in front of you to see the light. I just think many would rather keep looking backwards. I know the road traveled has been tough, but at some point you have to look forward.

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:03 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:I have to say that, the more I study the team this offseason, the more I am finding myself in agreement with the 'blow it up' mentality. The only unit I feel really good about is our secondary. The RBs are still a very good unit, IMO. LBs will be okay for another year at the most, but we need some fresh talent there, too. I'm also on record as supporting JC for another year before looking to replace him.

But it all starts with the lines, and blowing both of them up seems like the only true way forward, IMO.

I'm not sure we can "blow up" the team from a salcap standpoint (i.e., Portis), but this is an aging team with depth issues. We need a few years of solid drafts to restock. We're most certainly NOT 1-2 players away.

Californiaskin · Post by **Californiaskin** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:34 pm

Yep blow it up starting with Kendall, Jansen, Randy Thomas, El, griffin, washington, Collins Jason fricken Taylor, Springs, fabini

Trade cooley for a #2 OR 3

im with you monk

VetSkinsFan · Post by **VetSkinsFan** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:11 pm

I don't see quite as blowing it up. I see solid contributors here on our team. I guess I'm in the gray area between blowing it up and tweaking as you illustrated. I like Moss as a 2 or 3, I think we have at least 1 good TE. We havea solid secondary on defense. As noted many times, with 1 or 2 good tweaks, our defense can be completely sick. I am more of the mindset of blowing up the offense almost completely. This year, we put the no longer rooks out there and see what they have. Moss in the slot just makes me drool. CP still has a year or two (at the current rate they're running him in to the ground) and I think Sellers is pretty low mileage from looking at his career.

Hooligan · Post by **Hooligan** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:24 am

Californiaskin wrote:Trade cooley for a #2 OR 3

You lost me there. Cool

ey IS home grown talent. To me, he'd be one of the ones to rebuild around.

dad23hogjrs · Post by **dad23hogjrs** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:00 am

Blow it up?

Sure, here are some guys that would be a part of the "destruction"

ARE - moving him would increase our # against the cap 600k, we are already 3-4 M over, depending on where you get your info

Jansen - I've seen people coming for his head...great, that will cost you 2.78 million against the cap

Portis - YEAH, LETS GET CRAZY...crazy will cost you 7.7 M against the cap

Some other guys that not everyone is pointing pitch forks at, but would fit into blowing it up...

R. Thomas - costs you 4.5 M to move him; Moss - 464k against the cap to move; everyone on the "Trade Rogers" bandwagon - check this out - 1.43 M against the cap to pull that trigger

and my personal favorite:
"Trade cooley for a #2 OR 3" - that will cost you 8.1 M against the cap

We found a gem....so now you want to trade him so we can maybe do it again...but most likely not...makes sense.

You can't "Blow it Up" completely

why? because we laced the place with plutonium...

guys you can get rid of - more of a wittling

Springs - Saves 6M
Taylor - Saves 8.5M
M. Washington - Saves 4.5M
Griffin - Saves 3.62M
Rabach - Saves 2.35M
Daniels - Saves 2.3M

Sorry to say, everyone else costs you against the cap, or is worth more than what they save you against the cap.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:27 am

Blowing it up will take a lot longer than building around what we have - we have not been that good at bringing in players (both through the draft and free agency) that result in making our team better. Vinnie's crew needs to do a better job and start to get lucky :wink:

we do not need to blow it up and we do not need to bring in "impact" players like we used to - we just need to get younger and deeper and that will not take as long as "blowing it up" My 2 cents

.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:41 pm

I'm fully in the rebuilding is the way to go camp, this is not going to be a good team next year, it's better to accept that now and focus on making it a team that can achieve sustainable success

redskins14ru · Post by **redskins14ru** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:20 pm

He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind" - Proverbs 11:29

Back to top
bravo bravo blow it up

VRIEL1 · Post by **VRIEL1** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:27 pm

dad23hogjrs, cutting these players

Springs - Saves 6M
Taylor - Saves 8.5M
M. Washington - Saves 4.5M
Griffin - Saves 3.62M
Rabach - Saves 2.35M
Daniels - Saves 2.3M

saves us about 27.5 mill or close to it. Now minus the 3 mill over we already are and we are down to 24.5 mill.

As you said getting rid if:

ARE: 600k
Jansen: 2.8m
Thomas: 4.5m

That's about 8.5 mill or close to it. Minus these from the total and we are down to about 15.5 mill.

I think we can keep Moss but put him as the #2 or #3 WR. Limit his role so when he is in his legs are fresh and is a real threat. Portis has probably another year or two, but we need to start thinking ahead as a replacement. I would not trade Cool

ey due to cost to cut and because he was home grown and is still relatively young. Plus he is if not the #1 TE he is the #2 in the league. Keep him for a few more years.

Are real problem now comes with locating replacements. If we go FA we will be spending a lot of money. In the draft we only have 4 picks. Which means some of the glaring wholes after cuts will have to come from non drafted players or look at really cheap players to replace the ones we get rid of. Which also means they may not be as talented but will be more healthy.

I'm for "Rebuild" mode. Atleast my hopes will not be as high as the perverbial "Were close" montra. Plus we would be getting younger and cutting our budget. I like how the Patriots have handled their team but I believe it also goes back to having excellent talent scouts and sticking with the same shceme for more then 3 years.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:36 pm

VRIEL1 wrote:dad23hogjrs, cutting these players

Springs - Saves 6M
Taylor - Saves 8.5M
M. Washington - Saves 4.5M
Griffin - Saves 3.62M
Rabach - Saves 2.35M
Daniels - Saves 2.3M

saves us about 27.5 mill or close to it. Now minus the 3 mill over we already are and we are down to 24.5 mill.

As you said getting rid if:

ARE: 600k
Jansen: 2.8m
Thomas: 4.5m

That's about 8.5 mill or close to it. Minus these from the total and we are down to about 15.5 mill.

I think we can keep Moss but put him as the #2 or #3 WR. Limit his role so when he is in his legs are fresh and is a real threat.

This is basically how I would have answered dad23hogjrs, so I'll just quote it and agree with it. If you look at the implications of making these moves, that's enough (in my opinion, anyway) to qualify as "blowing it up."

I think my personal list of cuts / moves would be a bit different, but the Redskins are really in decent cap position if they are serious about making BIG changes. Whether that's what they actually want to do is another story. . .

dad23hogjrs · Post by **dad23hogjrs** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:54 pm

I am not at all for getting rid of anyone that hurts our cap situation.

I agree there are players that don't have it anymore, but they can not "have it" on the bench and not cust us cap space.

Cut the ones that clear space:
Springs - Saves 6M
Taylor - Saves 8.5M
M. Washington - Saves 4.5M
Griffin - Saves 3.62M
Rabach - Saves 2.35M
Daniels - Saves 2.3M

*************
Sign D Hall
Scary options include Gross and Haynesworth, but I think there you will just be perpetuating the issue. If you do Gross, no more than 4 years...I don't trust Haynesworth once he gets paid.
Pay someone to start in place of M Washington ( I like Dansby, who should be reasonably priced given the other LB's avail, ie Suggs, Scott, Etc.)

http://www.nfl.com/players/karlosdansby ... =DAN762622

Then we will need:
Guard - Reinhart will have to play
DE - pick 13 - better not miss Vinny
Center - 3rd Rounder - best shot we have
DT - Resign Gholston and Montgomery - are they dynamic? NO, but they are young and servicable

This is not a lot different, but its a little different...and it puts us down the path of being patient, drafting, and playing the guys that win in camp

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:46 pm

I agree with almost all of that, dad23. I think I'd rather see us take a DT at #13 (I'm not up to speed on this draft class, so I don't know who specifically.) I'm with you 100% on Haynesworth; I will be pretty upset if we are the team that decides to give him his payday. I think our DE's will be better than they currently look once we solidify the inner line—and that's why I'd say draft DT at #1, not DE.

VRIEL1 · Post by **VRIEL1** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:09 pm

I think you have to go after either Gross or Haynesworth. We need either a top OL to solidify our RT side or a top DT who can collapse a pocket. I would not do both. Do one and look to fill the other position from the draft at #13. and to be honest as much as I would rather have Haynesworth (cause I don't see a down side to him) it would be better to get a seasoned RT to help protect JC. We can pick up a top DT in the draft and train him quickly to just collapse a pocket.

I'm sorry I just don't feel the picking a LB or DE at #13 is a necessity. We brought in 3 DE's last year and couldn't get a decent pass rush. I think we need to try a DT.

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:10 pm

VRIEL1 wrote:I think you have to go after either Gross or Haynesworth. We need either a top OL to solidify our RT side or a top DT who can collapse a pocket. I would not do both. Do one and look to fill the other position from the draft at #13. and to be honest as much as I would rather have Haynesworth (cause I don't see a down side to him) it would be better to get a seasoned RT to help protect JC. We can pick up a top DT in the draft and train him quickly to just collapse a pocket.

I'm sorry I just don't feel the picking a LB or DE at #13 is a necessity. We brought in 3 DE's last year and couldn't get a decent pass rush. I think we need to try a DT.

Downsides to Haynesworth are well known; he wants franchise QB money (10 million a year); and he's incredibly injury prone. Over the past 6 seasons he has played in an average of 77% of games...less than either Shawn Springs or Cornelius Griffin. The last time he played in 16 games was his rookie season.

It's a double shot. Paying huge, salary cap busting money for a part time player. When he's healthy, he's great...but he's always injured. And I can't imagine he'd get magically healthier as he ages.

dad23hogjrs · Post by **dad23hogjrs** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:15 pm

"Over the past 6 seasons he has played in an average of 77% of games...less than either Shawn Springs or Cornelius Griffin."

I had not seen that stat before...
previously I was on the fence on Haynesworth , leaning to no
Now I'd have to say I am running the other way.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:30 pm

Yeah, we are going to pay Haynesworth top dollar to have him wear sweat pants and joke around on the sidelines.

It's really sad that Griffin never fully worked out for us. He had potential coming from NY and had moments of greatness here during '04 and '05. . .after that he has played—if at all—injured, deflated, and uninspired.

Californiaskin · Post by **Californiaskin** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:40 am

yeah I say DT at 13 as some mocks have us getting the third or fourth choice o line there.
I guess I did not realize the implications of trading cooley capwise...dude can play. Gross would realllly help our run game.

Collins needs to be gone though. we need to try to groom another qb if jason does not work out and collins is not the answer.