ramsey and his pocket awarenes what pocket?

biznitchn · Post by **biznitchn** » Fri May 14, 2004 6:37 pm

ive heard several people say ramsey doesnt have pocket awareness. 1 there was no pocket spur blocking scemes didnt work in the nfl, 2 ramsey showed signs of good smarts and running ability (right up the middle

when he needed to, and last but not least if he wasnt shell shocked there there would have to be something very wrong with him! :wink:

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri May 14, 2004 6:54 pm

When the pundits say that he has no pocket awareness, it's a direct result of the number of sacks. As you say, there generally was no pocket. Additionally, Spurrier had him looking for the long ball first.
Trust what you see, and not what you hear, Sir. Ramsey will, as you know, be fine.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:07 pm

I personally don't base it off of his sack, but just from watching the games last year and remebering d@m*** RAMSEY SIDESTEP OR SOMETHING!!!

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:27 pm

Yes, but CLL...everybody knew that boy had feet of cement. He wasn't going to be all nifty in there. What he needed was 10-12 seconds to look in every passing play. Spurrier didn't go for the dump-off too much, and Patches was always instructed to find the big play first.

ii7-V7 · Post by **ii7-V7** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:38 pm

I don't think that Ramsey's pocket presence is that poor. In the early part of the season his pocket presence seemed just fine. Remember when he ducked the blitzing linebacker and then launched a 40 yard pass to Coles durng the Falcons game? Also his well timed runs during the Giants game?

But as the year progressed and teams saw the flaws in our blocking scheme Spurrier never adjusted. Everyone on the team seemed disenfranchised, and frustrated. Ramsey definetly holds the ball for a long time, but that seemed to be what Spurrier wanted. So, perhaps Ramsey was just doing what he was told to do. If Ramsey was more of a scrambler, perhaps that would have wokred. My hope is that Ramsey remains teachable and can learn to get rid of the ball as well as he learned to hold on to it.

Chad

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Fri May 14, 2004 8:05 pm

I don't think that Ramsey's pocket presence is that poor. In the early part of the season his pocket presence seemed just fine. Remember when he ducked the blitzing linebacker and then launched a 40 yard pass to Coles durng the Falcons game? Also his well timed runs during the Giants game?

That was the opening game against the Jets--and my brothers and I were doing backflips when that happened. I couldn't see enough re-runs of that highlight, and they showed it plenty of times throughout the rest of the game. As I recall, the ball was well thrown but just enough behind Coles that he had to slow down to catch it--if it had been on stride (but I'll definitely give P-Ram a break here), it would have been 6 I also believe that Ramsey had a scramble in that game for something around 20 yards, which sparked immediate talk about how Ramsey could run if he needed to. Unfortunately, he proved that notion wrong with the rest of the season (admittedly, Spurrier didn't know how to protect him, and that's the bottom line).

My guess is that Gibbs will have more quick dump offs (without the lousy WR screens), so that Patrick won't have to hold on to the ball as long as he did this past year. He's not afraid, and for that he's earned my undying respect. Perhaps Brunell could show him a step or two. . .

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri May 14, 2004 8:09 pm

So, most everybody digs what I wrote, huh ?
It was Spurrier who defined Patches' "Pocket Awareness".
The sorry thing is ( and I have been slapped around a little on this) the Spurrier Way must be unlearned. No need to hold the ball to your ear and start looking long, P-Ram. Throw it to whomever is open, if you will.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri May 14, 2004 8:21 pm

So, perhaps Ramsey was just doing what he was told to do.

I must agree that what you said is a definite probality. I can't argue with that. I actually hope that is the case so that he will when the starting job.

chicosbailbond · Post by **chicosbailbond** » Sat May 15, 2004 8:01 am

cut ramsey some slack... he didn't run as much later in the season b/c his foot was broken... brunnell will probably be the starter but we have the best back up in the league... ramsey will play a role in the redskins success... we need him...

BRO · Post by **BRO** » Sat May 15, 2004 9:46 am

When watching the games last year i saw a lot of messed up plays with audibles and plays being changed at the line of scrimmage....that may have had an effect on the offensive line.... i think Ramsey was tough and took the hit but maybe all he needs to do is get a little smarter back there......he needs to take his time,read the defense, and talk with his O-line

John Manfreda · Post by **John Manfreda** » Sat May 15, 2004 1:48 pm

It is hard to side step when you can't even hold on to the ball for 2 seconds without getting the living bejuses knocked out of you. No pocket awarness my @ss.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Sat May 15, 2004 3:17 pm

cut ramsey some slack... he didn't run as much later in the season b/c his foot was broken... brunnell will probably be the starter but we have the best back up in the league... ramsey will play a role in the redskins success... we need him...

Im not asking him to be a Vick, but just to sidestep to open a clear throwing. Or to buy himself some time. If Ramseys foot was that bad he didn't need to be playing if sidestepping was that bad. Thats a vital option for QB's, it buys precious seconds.

It is hard to side step when you can't even hold on to the ball for 2 seconds without getting the living bejuses knocked out of you. No pocket awarness my @ss.

He had longer than two seconds, he needs to sidestep to buy time like I said earlier. Im not being mean to the guy, Im just pointing out something he doesn't do and that I'd like him to do for him to be our starter.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Sat May 15, 2004 7:39 pm

Quote:
It is hard to side step when you can't even hold on to the ball for 2 seconds without getting the living bejuses knocked out of you. No pocket awarness my @ss.

He had longer than two seconds, he needs to sidestep to buy time like I said earlier. Im not being mean to the guy, Im just pointing out something he doesn't do and that I'd like him to do for him to be our starter.

I agree with ChrisLL here. How many times did Ramsey hold on to that ball till the last possible second before throwing? One of his greatest assets is that he's not afraid of taking a hit--he refuses to be. I love that about him, but just because you're not afraid of a hit doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to avoid them.

Like I said before, he looked pretty promising in the first game of last season, but he needs some work in learning how to side-step defenders / get rid of the ball. He also never really got flushed out of the pocket, you may have noticed. I'd say that, especially considering our bad blocking schemes, that's a sign of a guy who isn't too quick on the feet.

JonC56 · Post by **JonC56** » Sat May 15, 2004 8:23 pm

I think ramsey is going to be a good qb in the NFl for a long time, but he needs to work on getting the ball out quicker, Hasselback didnt get sacked nearly as much when he took over, so its just something to think about

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Sat May 15, 2004 8:51 pm

Jon, some will say the O-Line did a better job for Hasselbeck because he wasn't calling audibles constantly. Spurrier greatly pared down the playbook to get Tim started.
Unfortunately, it was then and only then that we truly clicked on offense.

skinsfaninroanoke · Post by **skinsfaninroanoke** » Sun May 16, 2004 8:02 am

He also took out most of the audibles when Tim went in.

The problem was the scheme, combined with the lack of blocking, the lack of adjustment due to Spurrier's pride and Ramsey still being in the adjustment phase of going from NCAA to NFL - where the receivers often don't have more than a half step on the defensive back. In college, there can be a three yard gap between a WR and CB.

PRam admitted it before last year in a couple of articles I read.

Spurrier, like others have said, also had Ramsey leaning on his arm too much trying to always go for the deep ball first. That was the way his scheme was planned. Deep, middle, short.

To me - plan it horizontally, left middle right, and run some shorter routes to help the guy get used to the league, speed, and your plan. But as we all know, that didn't happen til Tim came into the game.

Doesn't it make you all wince to think of what COULD have happened had PRam been given the same chance as Tim with a far simpler playbook and some game planning?

HogInBlacksburg · Post by **HogInBlacksburg** » Mon May 17, 2004 12:27 am

I had been wincing ever since we hired SSI.
He also called more running plays when Tim was in. That is going to be the biggest difference. The offense will be dictating to the defense, instead of the other way around.
Last year, the opposing team knew what play we were running at the same time as our O-line did.(It seemed that way)
This year there will be different formations, motion, and actually more than 2 running plays in the game plan. Not only will our guys not learn what play will be run at the line of scrimmage...they will know it days in advance.
With the proper schemes in place and Portis racking up yards...PRam's pocket presence will actually get a chance to develop. Under the circumstances, I think PR did quite well in the pocket. Could he be better? Absolutely, but for a guy with as few starts as he has and playing in the system he has been in...I'd give him an 'A' for effort.
It is only a matter of time before he takes the reins of this new offense. It is the first time he is going to compete against a professional quarterback and see how HE runs a professional 'NFL' offense.
The poor guy hasn't been exposed to anything other than 'the only NFL quarterback to go 0-16 turned college coach turned USFL coach turned college coach turned NFL coach only to cowardly quit/not quit/quit' 's schemes.

welch · Post by **welch** » Mon May 17, 2004 6:37 pm

Scattered thoughts:

- Ramsey's performance, in-pocket or out-of-pocket, cannot be used to judge his skills. He played under Spurrier, who should never have been hired by any NFL team.

- Spurrier's offense failed when others tried it in the early '90s. Spurrier: no pocket, no running, no balance, and, most likely, primitive college blocking schemes.

- Gibbs began (reaching back so far that I don't entirely trust my memory) as an offsensive line coach. His mind still works outwards from the OL. Where Spurrier relied on his Florida teams having much bigger, faster, stronger players than their opposition, Gibbs relies on the attention he gives to who blocks who (or whom?).

- Gibbs, Bugel, and Jim Hanifan (let's not forget Hanifan...fine coach) always developed blocking to protect the QB. They varied depending on the physicals talents of the QB: one thing for Joe Theisman, who was agile and quick, but something else for Jay Schroader and Doug Williams, who were not quick, and something else, again, for Mark Rypien, who was big, strong, smart, tough, and immobile.

- Maybe Ramsey can move if he has more than a half-breath between talking the snap and being pummeled. If he is as sluggish as Rypien was, Gibbs and Bugel will use an extra blocker. Nifty thing is that they will disguise the extra blocker...sometimes the H-back, sometimes this guy, sometimes that, always shifting, always something different.

- One way to protect the QB is to run the ball right over the defenders...something that Marty S. knew, something that demonstrates the gap between a competent, grade-B, professional coach and Spurrier.

- Check the stats for the SB 26 year...Rypien was one of the least-sacked QB's in the league: partly the heavy blocking, partly Ernest Byner, partly The Posse, partly the Hogs.

- Defenses are more aggressive now. Gibbs let slip a little of his thinking...he said he had been having fun matching schemes with Williams. Having fun...Gibbs is fully absorbed in this, thinking of the schemes, the blocking angles, the personnel. He used to tease and destroy aggressive defenses.

- Ramsey will get his fair chance to start. He will be trained, and he will be protected. If Brunell is better, this season, then Brunell will start. And so be it.

- Personally, I'm bored with baseball...I can't name more than two of the Yankees starters...The Red Sox are 1/2 game ahead of the Yankees...It's mid-May, and I don't care. I don't know who's in the Stanley Cup semis...and don't care a thing about the NBA.

- When does training camp start???

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon May 17, 2004 8:05 pm

Personally, I'm bored with baseball...I can't name more than two of the Yankees starters...The Red Sox are 1/2 game ahead of the Yankees...It's mid-May, and I don't care. I don't know who's in the Stanley Cup semis...and don't care a thing about the NBA.

And I thought it was just me.

I agree with a lot of your post. I enjoyed it. I believe you are right, things will be different under Gibbs. Ramsey may finally have a chance to develop. I just hope that he hasn't missed that growing stage.