The problem with the Redskins

[DEHog]

I watched Ryan Clark send McGahee to the hospital on Sunday.
Cerrato let him walk.
I've watched Antonio Pierce now in NYG Blue for a few years now, and it still sickens me that Cerrato let him go, thinking he was a product of the system and would stay on the cheap.
I don't trust him, because since he came from DeBartolo's sinking ship...he's done nothing to keep ours afloat.
Maybe Joe Gibbs had lost his touch with the players, but he certainly had Snyder and Vinny in check...and the results of those two running wild brings back memories of the 2000 roster.

Note, TC, that both Clark and Pierce went under Gibbs' watch. You can't blame Cerrato for letting them walk (and for other poor moves in FA such as Lloyd and Archuleta), yet praise Gibbs for other things.

Pulp I get your point and you are right that you can’t just blame the FO. However I don’t think they get a pass either. The Ryan Clark situation, for me, is a microcosm of what’s wrong with our FO. From what I read Ryan wanted to stay and was looking for a 4 year deal for around 8-10 mil with a 2 mil signing bonus. Not sure if the Skins made an offer or not I thought I read that they offer him 3-4 mil over 3 year with 1 mil bonus, but Ryan found out on TV that he was cut. He signed a 4 year 7 mil deal with a 1.6 mil bonus with the Steelers and now starts for a SB #1 defense. The Redskins were busy signing some high priced FA one of them was AA now we all know that was a bad signing and your right it was the coaches as much as the front office who wanted him. We all know hindsight is 20/20. But how do you give AA 35 mil when you could have has Ryan for 8 or how bout trying to keep them both?? I know Ryan didn’t start his career with us but he did develop under us and had a lot of football left. That’s not a Gibbs and Co. problem…we have all agreed that the buck$ stop with Snyder. This is where I think our FO disconnect is… they spent so much on high price FA that are on the downside of their careers that they don’t have the cap room to keep the guys they develop like a Ryan Clark or Pierce and Bailey for that matter. All these players were developed by us but we didn’t have the cap space to pursue them. I’m in the camp of it’s better to cut a get a year to soon then a year to late…other teams seem to get this right we are to team who signs the guys they cut. Ray Lewis and Brian Dawkins are both FA this year it won’t surprise me one bit if one or both are not retained if they seek a big deal.

I have already admitted that trend has seem to have stopped although the Taylor signing was step back in the other direction IMO…I said so at the time you just can’t give future players (picks) to sign a guy who going to only play 2-3 years for that kind of money and expect to be able to sign the guys you develop. Will the money be there to sign Thomas and Kelly or Horton and Davis if they develop like we hope they do?? My fear is it won’t because of the high price contracts. That is a FO issue not a coaching issue,

[KazooSkinsFan]

I have already admitted that trend has seem to have stopped although the Taylor signing was step back in the other direction IMO…I said so at the time you just can’t give future players (picks) to sign a guy who going to only play 2-3 years for that kind of money and expect to be able to sign the guys you develop. Will the money be there to sign Thomas and Kelly or Horton and Davis if they develop like we hope they do?? My fear is it won’t because of the high price contracts. That is a FO issue not a coaching issue,

In fairness we were a playoff team last year and Taylor was motivated by the Daniels injury. We also didn't know that he would suffer a freak injury and another one. Look who made the Super Bowl this year and the start we had to the season. It was possible. I'm not saying it was the right trade, but I'm saying that to compare it to the early ones where it was just a philosophy choice to pursue those past their primes isn't entirely accurate.

[SkinsFreak]

I get your point and you are right that you can’t just blame the FO. However I don’t think they get a pass either. The Ryan Clark situation, for me, is a microcosm of what’s wrong with our FO. From what I read Ryan wanted to stay and was looking for a 4 year deal for around 8-10 mil with a 2 mil signing bonus. Not sure if the Skins made an offer or not I thought I read that they offer him 3-4 mil over 3 year with 1 mil bonus, but Ryan found out on TV that he was cut. He signed a 4 year 7 mil deal with a 1.6 mil bonus with the Steelers and now starts for a SB #1 defense. The Redskins were busy signing some high priced FA one of them was AA now we all know that was a bad signing and your right it was the coaches as much as the front office who wanted him. We all know hindsight is 20/20. But how do you give AA 35 mil when you could have has Ryan for 8 or how bout trying to keep them both?? I know Ryan didn’t start his career with us but he did develop under us and had a lot of football left. That’s not a Gibbs and Co. problem…we have all agreed that the buck$ stop with Snyder. This is where I think our FO disconnect is… they spent so much on high price FA that are on the downside of their careers that they don’t have the cap room to keep the guys they develop like a Ryan Clark or Pierce and Bailey for that matter. All these players were developed by us but we didn’t have the cap space to pursue them. I’m in the camp of it’s better to cut a get a year to soon then a year to late…other teams seem to get this right we are to team who signs the guys they cut. Ray Lewis and Brian Dawkins are both FA this year it won’t surprise me one bit if one or both are not retained if they seek a big deal.

I understand what you're saying... I do, but I think that's a narrow perspective on that situation. You're primarily emphasizing the money aspect and the size of the contracts.

I understand the sentiment that the "buck stops with the owner"... of any business or company, but as to which players specifically fit with which system, the buck stops with the coaches. Even though Pierce and Clark have gone on with decent careers, at the time, it was Williams decision that these guys didn't fit with his defensive schemes, and from that perspective, the money is almost irrelevant.

And the facts prove that Williams was calling the shots, for those specifically mentioned. As you pointed out, they could've had Clark for mush cheaper, but instead, Williams thought... (wrongly, I'll add) that AA was a better fit for his system, and Snyder ended up having to pay much more for him, when he could've re-signed Clark at a significantly much cheaper rate. I don't think Williams thought Clark fit his system at the time.

BUT AGAIN, this kind of thing happens to EVERY TEAM. Respectfully, I think you have blinders on if you think the owner is exclusively calling all the shots, especially during Gibbs' reign. Gibbs and Williams were asking for specific players and Snyder was merely obliging their requests. If you disagree with that, simply provide proof to the contrary.

[DEHog]

BUT AGAIN, this kind of thing happens to EVERY TEAM. Respectfully, I think you have blinders on if you think the owner is exclusively calling all the shots, especially during Gibbs' reign. Gibbs and Williams were asking for specific players and Snyder was merely obliging their requests. If you disagree with that, simply provide proof to the contrary

I don' t think they happen to the sucessful like the Indy, Tenn, Balt. Phill, NE, SD they seem to do well with releasing the right players and resigning the ones they develop. We have argued many a time as to who has the final say...when it come to money I think that is on Snyder...As a owner he must know when to say no...That's why I used Ryan Clark...where was the person in the organzation whi should have said wait a min. We are going to give AA 35 mil and let Ryan walk over less than half a mil?? I just can't rap my head around how the organization came to the conclusion that AA was worth20-25 mil more than Clark??? Why couldn't we offer AA less and use the difference to keep Ryan???

[DEHog]

I have already admitted that trend has seem to have stopped although the Taylor signing was step back in the other direction IMO…I said so at the time you just can’t give future players (picks) to sign a guy who going to only play 2-3 years for that kind of money and expect to be able to sign the guys you develop. Will the money be there to sign Thomas and Kelly or Horton and Davis if they develop like we hope they do?? My fear is it won’t because of the high price contracts. That is a FO issue not a coaching issue,

In fairness we were a playoff team last year and Taylor was motivated by the Daniels injury. We also didn't know that he would suffer a freak injury and another one. Look who made the Super Bowl this year and the start we had to the season. It was possible. I'm not saying it was the right trade, but I'm saying that to compare it to the early ones where it was just a philosophy choice to pursue those past their primes isn't entirely accurate.

Yea but we won't sustain that... any winning we do is for the moment.
I wasn't comparing it as much as I was saying it seem to be a step in the wrong direction. For me is doesn't matter if JT got 15 sacks this year and next he is clearly on the backside of his career...I can understand signing him, I can't understand giving up picks.

[SkinsFreak]

BUT AGAIN, this kind of thing happens to EVERY TEAM. Respectfully, I think you have blinders on if you think the owner is exclusively calling all the shots, especially during Gibbs' reign. Gibbs and Williams were asking for specific players and Snyder was merely obliging their requests. If you disagree with that, simply provide proof to the contrary

I don' t think they happen to the sucessful like the Indy, Tenn, Balt. Phill, NE, SD they seem to do well with releasing the right players and resigning the ones they develop. We have argued many a time as to who has the final say...when it come to money I think that is on Snyder...As a owner he must know when to say no...That's why I used Ryan Clark...where was the person in the organzation whi should have said wait a min. We are going to give AA 35 mil and let Ryan walk over less than half a mil?? I just can't rap my head around how the organization came to the conclusion that AA was worth20-25 mil more than Clark??? Why couldn't we offer AA less and use the difference to keep Ryan???

For every team, the coaches and the FO discuss personnel moves. They subsequently present conclusions to the owners. If a coach and the FO determine a player doesn't fit with the system, why would you think an owner, any owner, would discredit that conclusion? It's only in hindsight that we know AA was the wrong choice, and there's no proof Clark could've excelled in Williams' system if kept.

I give you your point that is does speak to coaching when you play to the level of your opponent....Who hired the coach??

Well, the owner did... obviously. But buy that narrow logic, 31 other owners in this league are idiots for not hiring coaches that won them the Super Bowl every year.

[DEHog]

BUT AGAIN, this kind of thing happens to EVERY TEAM. Respectfully, I think you have blinders on if you think the owner is exclusively calling all the shots, especially during Gibbs' reign. Gibbs and Williams were asking for specific players and Snyder was merely obliging their requests. If you disagree with that, simply provide proof to the contrary

I don' t think they happen to the sucessful like the Indy, Tenn, Balt. Phill, NE, SD they seem to do well with releasing the right players and resigning the ones they develop. We have argued many a time as to who has the final say...when it come to money I think that is on Snyder...As a owner he must know when to say no...That's why I used Ryan Clark...where was the person in the organzation whi should have said wait a min. We are going to give AA 35 mil and let Ryan walk over less than half a mil?? I just can't rap my head around how the organization came to the conclusion that AA was worth20-25 mil more than Clark??? Why couldn't we offer AA less and use the difference to keep Ryan???

For every team, the coaches and the FO discuss personnel moves. They subsequently present conclusions to the owners. If a coach and the FO determine a player doesn't fit with the system, why would you think an owner, any owner, would discredit that conclusion? It's only in hindsight that we know AA was the wrong choice, and there's no proof Clark could've excelled in Williams' system if kept.

I give you your point that is does speak to coaching when you play to the level of your opponent....Who hired the coach??

Well, the owner did... obviously. But buy that narrow logic, 31 other owners in this league are idiots for not hiring coaches that won them the Super Bowl every year.

First off I'm not a SB or bust kind of guy I think the Buffalo's and Minn teams of the NFL were dynasties in their own right..Lots of those guys never won a SB but are in the HOF. And we are talking about a coach trying to get the players to play to the level of the competition.

As for Clark he was playing well, we all agreed (even the Redskins ttried to resign him) It the Ryan Clarks of the NFL that separate bad team from good teams...We AA all that money and then we cut Clark who we now have to replace with less $$$ Guess what kind of quality we get??
All team do not and don't operate this way

[SkinsFreak]

I don' t think they happen to the sucessful like the Indy, Tenn, Balt. Phill, NE, SD they seem to do well with releasing the right players and resigning the ones they develop.

I'm not going to go through every one of these with examples of bad personnel moves, but let's just take Philly for example. They drafted McMullen in the 3rd round, drafted Freddie Mitchell in the 1st round (both gone, also bad high draft picks including Kolb, LJ Smith, Reggie Brown...etc.) signed and released Terrell Owens and Dante Stallworth... and after using a 1st and a 2nd on Lito Shepard and Sheldon Brown, they had to sign Asante Samuels to a huge contract. I'm sure I missed plenty.

It happens to every team.

[PulpExposure]

That's why I used Ryan Clark...where was the person in the organzation whi should have said wait a min. We are going to give AA 35 mil and let Ryan walk over less than half a mil?? I just can't rap my head around how the organization came to the conclusion that AA was worth20-25 mil more than Clark??? Why couldn't we offer AA less and use the difference to keep Ryan???

But how did you know that this didn't happen? I mean someone could have said "Let's keep Clark, and not get Archuleta" and then Williams says, "No, I don't want Clark on my defense. I want Archuleta. He will help us win more ballgames."

What do you think the end result would have been in this situation?

[DEHog]

That's why I used Ryan Clark...where was the person in the organzation whi should have said wait a min. We are going to give AA 35 mil and let Ryan walk over less than half a mil?? I just can't rap my head around how the organization came to the conclusion that AA was worth20-25 mil more than Clark??? Why couldn't we offer AA less and use the difference to keep Ryan???

But how did you know that this didn't happen? I mean someone could have said "Let's keep Clark, and not get Archuleta" and then Williams says, "No, I don't want Clark on my defense. I want Archuleta. He will help us win more ballgames."

What do you think the end result would have been in this situation?

Your missing the point...I'm not arguing on getting or not getting him. I'm arguing about the busness side of it..at what cost?? 35mil which was the highest for a saftey at the time??? And giving up Ryan Clark...and him having to hear about it on TV???

[KazooSkinsFan]

BUT AGAIN, this kind of thing happens to EVERY TEAM

I don' t think they happen to the sucessful like the Indy, Tenn, Balt. Phill, NE, SD

Yep, they never make mistakes, just we do.

[PulpExposure]

That's why I used Ryan Clark...where was the person in the organzation whi should have said wait a min. We are going to give AA 35 mil and let Ryan walk over less than half a mil?? I just can't rap my head around how the organization came to the conclusion that AA was worth20-25 mil more than Clark??? Why couldn't we offer AA less and use the difference to keep Ryan???

But how did you know that this didn't happen? I mean someone could have said "Let's keep Clark, and not get Archuleta" and then Williams says, "No, I don't want Clark on my defense. I want Archuleta. He will help us win more ballgames."

What do you think the end result would have been in this situation?

Your missing the point...I'm not arguing on getting or not getting him. I'm arguing about the busness side of it..at what cost?? 35mil which was the highest for a saftey at the time??? And giving up Ryan Clark...and him having to hear about it on TV???

I understand. I think in this case that Snyder was willing to let the business side go, because the coach wanted Archuleta. Is it a failure to cave to a coach's demand, or to see it purely as a business venture?

In either case, I think you come out criticizing Snyder. That's not fair.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Willing to let the business side go, because the coach wanted Archuleta. Is it a failure to cave to a coach's demand, or to see it purely as a business venture?

In either case, I think you come out criticizing Snyder. That's not fair.

Well put. I like the irony that Snyder's constantly bashed for not knowing football and not letting the football people do it and when he gives Williams what he wants he's bashed for somehow not knowing it was a mistake and overruling him. Obviously Williams ran a great D and I don't think anyone could argue ex-post that Clark would have been a better keep then AA for both performance and money, but as you accurately point out it was Williams call that Gibbs and Snyder supported. The rationality of bashing Snyder for not knowing football and for supporting the people who do and have been successful at the same time is zero.

[SkinsFreak]

That's why I used Ryan Clark...where was the person in the organzation whi should have said wait a min. We are going to give AA 35 mil and let Ryan walk over less than half a mil?? I just can't rap my head around how the organization came to the conclusion that AA was worth20-25 mil more than Clark??? Why couldn't we offer AA less and use the difference to keep Ryan???

But how did you know that this didn't happen? I mean someone could have said "Let's keep Clark, and not get Archuleta" and then Williams says, "No, I don't want Clark on my defense. I want Archuleta. He will help us win more ballgames."

What do you think the end result would have been in this situation?

Your missing the point...I'm not arguing on getting or not getting him. I'm arguing about the busness side of it..at what cost?? 35mil which was the highest for a saftey at the time??? And giving up Ryan Clark...and him having to hear about it on TV???

Players hearing things first from the media happens, it's not unique in Clark's situation. And when they signed AA to that $35 million contract, there's no way, AT THAT TIME, they could've known it wasn't worth it. You keep saying hindsight is 20/20, yet that's all you're using to support your criticisms.

But as some keep blaming the FO, at what point do the players, themselves, deserve blame and criticism? Even after AA publicly admitted that he didn't give full effort because he was distracted by the new found wealth and a Playboy Bunny girlfriend, we still want to blame Snyder? Why? How could he have known AA would do that?

And the same goes for the product on the field, the players have to execute, therefore deserving just as much of the blame. Point being, in a team sport, everyone, from the players, coaches, FO and the owner shares in the culpable negligence, it ain't one one person.

And to just say "the buck stops" with the owner completely ignores the common business principle and practice of delegation. Each relies on the other, from the top down. But what IS unique about this industry compared to others, in the NFL, there in ultimately just one winner out of 32 teams.

[SkinsFreak]

Willing to let the business side go, because the coach wanted Archuleta. Is it a failure to cave to a coach's demand, or to see it purely as a business venture?

In either case, I think you come out criticizing Snyder. That's not fair.

Well put. I like the irony that Snyder's constantly bashed for not knowing football and not letting the football people do it and when he gives Williams what he wants he's bashed for somehow not knowing it was a mistake and overruling him.

Exactly. Well said by both Pulp and Kaz.

[KazooSkinsFan]

at what point do the players, themselves, deserve blame and criticism? Even after AA publicly admitted that he didn't give full effort because he was distracted by the new found wealth and a Playboy Bunny girlfriend, we still want to blame Snyder? Why? How could he have known AA would do that?

Totally agree, Freak. AA STILL did a considerable amount of whining about the situation anyway. What about recognizing he wasn't playing because he SUCKED! Maybe he didn't for the Rams, but he sure did for us. How many times can a professional safety get beat on the same play? Of course opposing O's are going to keep calling it until you stop it.

[SkinsFreak]

at what point do the players, themselves, deserve blame and criticism? Even after AA publicly admitted that he didn't give full effort because he was distracted by the new found wealth and a Playboy Bunny girlfriend, we still want to blame Snyder? Why? How could he have known AA would do that?

Totally agree, Freak. AA STILL did a considerable amount of whining about the situation anyway. What about recognizing he wasn't playing because he SUCKED! Maybe he didn't for the Rams, but he sure did for us. How many times can a professional safety get beat on the same play? Of course opposing O's are going to keep calling it until you stop it.

And after we kicked his butt out of DC, what did the Bears give up for him??? I guess their owner is an idiot too.

[Bob 0119]

Well, in the interest of full disclosure, my father-in-law predicted AA would be a bad move prior to the season.

His rationale was that AA was a pass-rushing safety, when we needed a coverage safety.

Apart from that, I do believe that AA was Williams' pick moreso than Snyder's, and believed for a long time that Williams believed his system was perfect, and that any player could flourish within it.

Obviously, Jacksonville wasn't terribly impressed with Williams' abilities either.

[DEHog]

Again where is the guy between the owner and the coaches evaluating players and helping to determine there worth??
How many players have the Redskins drafted and developed into pro bowlers and resigned during the Snyder era? Samuels and ey??
We did move in the right direction this year..give me the player who playing FOR a contract over the guy with the contract any day. Will the money be there to retain Kelly, Thomas, Davis and Horton??
The proof is in the results on the field...I maintain that the Redskins will not be a consistence winning with the way they currently do business. I also believe Snyder will figure it out and admit that he did some things wrong?

[DEHog]

BUT AGAIN, this kind of thing happens to EVERY TEAM

I don' t think they happen to the sucessful like the Indy, Tenn, Balt. Phill, NE, SD

Yep, they never make mistakes, just we do.

Where did I day that..my point is they don't overspend on FA handicapping their team...and they able to rebuild and win on a consistence basis.

[KazooSkinsFan]

That's why I used Ryan Clark...where was the person in the organzation whi should have said wait a min. We are going to give AA 35 mil and let Ryan walk over less than half a mil?? I just can't rap my head around how the organization came to the conclusion that AA was worth20-25 mil more than Clark??? Why couldn't we offer AA less and use the difference to keep Ryan???

But how did you know that this didn't happen? I mean someone could have said "Let's keep Clark, and not get Archuleta" and then Williams says, "No, I don't want Clark on my defense. I want Archuleta. He will help us win more ballgames."

What do you think the end result would have been in this situation?

Your missing the point...I'm not arguing on getting or not getting him. I'm arguing about the busness side of it..at what cost?? 35mil which was the highest for a saftey at the time??? And giving up Ryan Clark...and him having to hear about it on TV???

It's what you said in what I cut out, and going back and reading the full quote it's still what you said. However, if it's not what you meant then I totally accept that. Though as what keeps getting pointed out I'm not seeing where you're supporting that Snyder should have said "no" to Williams and Gibbs who was supporting Williams.

Look at it this way, had William's assessment of AA been right would you have still said Sndyer was a boob for doing it? Assuming no, how was Snyder supposed to know his guru defensive coach was wrong in his assessment? Gibbs didn't know and he may be O but he's a lot more knowledgable of the sport then Snyder. It's easy to bash in hindsight and that's really all you're doing.

[DEHog]

at what point do the players, themselves, deserve blame and criticism? Even after AA publicly admitted that he didn't give full effort because he was distracted by the new found wealth and a Playboy Bunny girlfriend, we still want to blame Snyder? Why? How could he have known AA would do that?

Totally agree, Freak. AA STILL did a considerable amount of whining about the situation anyway. What about recognizing he wasn't playing because he SUCKED! Maybe he didn't for the Rams, but he sure did for us. How many times can a professional safety get beat on the same play? Of course opposing O's are going to keep calling it until you stop it.

And after we kicked his butt out of DC, what did the Bears give up for him??? I guess their owner is an idiot too.

A 6th round pick and about 3 mil less in cap space then us.

Again I think you guys are missing the point who out there was offering that kind of $$$ The only thing Snyder was bidding against was that AA didn't want to come here so Snyder made him an offer he couldn't refuse. My whole point is we can't do business like this and expect to have cap space to sign the guys we develop.

[SkinsFreak]

My whole point is we can't do business like this and expect to have cap space to sign the guys we develop.

I agree, but until that actually happens, it's a worthless and empty argument. The media always says we'll be in "cap hell" every year, yet we never are... and Snyder has always found a way to get the desired deals done.

[PulpExposure]

Where did I day that..my point is they don't overspend on FA handicapping their team...and they able to rebuild and win on a consistence basis.

If you haven't gotten the memo, the Redskins haven't signed an overpriced free agent since Archuleta and Lloyd. The Redskins last foray into FA had them get 2 guys (Fletcher and Smoot) who fit their defense, and cost about the same, combined, as Derrick Dockery that same year.

If the Redskins suddenly go and sign someone else to a huge, massive contract, perhaps you can bring this pitchfork back out. But they haven't in a long while. Hell, did they sign anyone last year?

[Bob 0119]

Where did I day that..my point is they don't overspend on FA handicapping their team...and they able to rebuild and win on a consistence basis.

If you haven't gotten the memo, the Redskins haven't signed an overpriced free agent since Archuleta and Lloyd. The Redskins last foray into FA had them get 2 guys (Fletcher and Smoot) who fit their defense, and cost about the same, combined, as Derrick Dockery that same year.

If the Redskins suddenly go and sign someone else to a huge, massive contract, perhaps you can bring this pitchfork back out. But they haven't in a long while. Hell, did they sign anyone last year?

Jason Taylor, DeAngelo Hall, Shawn Alexander and Ryan Plackemeier