Official QB switch? Thread

[DEHog]

Another reason I want to stick with Campbell is because if Campbell has another bad season he's going to fire Zorn...that way the new coach can bring in his guy.
I feel for Zorn for having to be hitched to Campbell...Wasn't there a rumor that Zorn didn't think JAson could be a NFL QB??

Joe Gibbs, Al Saunders, now Zorn, Campbell is now a coach killer too.

It's not so much that...I'm just tired of us trying to fit a square peg into a round hole...Zorn hasn't been allow to go out a get a WCO QB. So it sets up nice the next coach will get to bring in his guy...I'm not hoping for that...

[John Manfreda]

Another reason I want to stick with Campbell is because if Campbell has another bad season he's going to fire Zorn...that way the new coach can bring in his guy.
I feel for Zorn for having to be hitched to Campbell...Wasn't there a rumor that Zorn didn't think JAson could be a NFL QB??

Joe Gibbs, Al Saunders, now Zorn, Campbell is now a coach killer too.

It's not so much that...I'm just tired of us trying to fit a square peg into a round hole...Zorn hasn't been allow to go out a get a WCO QB. So it sets up nice the next coach will get to bring in his guy...I'm not hoping for that...

I was making a joke, Saunders, Gibbs, now Zorn. He is a coach killer. I didn't mean too much, I just put the laugh because I thought it was funny. Your right offensive coaches need to be able to bring in their own guy.

[SkinsFreak]

I don't think that John is saying he is our savior. Those were words put into his mouth (and in maybe the most immature way -- by "staff" no less). Placing words into others mouths' is something (and for good reason) the "staff" here tends to look down upon, but I guess it is unnecessary to heed their own instruction

I never put any words in anyone's mouth, that's just nonsense. Nor as a staff member, do I have to agree with the hyperbole and unfounded misstatements spewed by some around here. I made a tongue-and-cheek, off-the-cuff joke. Not sure how you interpret that as putting words in someones mouth.

When someone carries on with nothing but drivel and hyperbole that's supported by no facts or even reality, it just becomes comical. Like implying that JC is the worst QB ever. As PulpExposure and Bob accurately pointed out, not only is JC far from being the worst QB in Redskins history, he's not even the worst QB in the league, and that IS supported by facts. And, for the record, John asserting that "we would've made the playoffs if Collins was the starter", implies he thinks Collins could've been a "savior". Nevertheless, it was a joke.

As for Todd Collins, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Not only will he never be a starting QB for the Skins, I'm betting he'll never be a starter for any team in this league. Not only has this team not deemed Collins worthy of being a starter, even Saunders never lobbied for him to be the starter, here or in KC. So I guess many coaches misjudged him, right?

The staff here isn't defending Campbell, as you insinuate. But some here have the common sense to know the teams losses are not solely JC's fault, and that's the point. Every staff member here has been critical of JC and recognizes he shares in the blame, but he's not solely to blame. Just as the teams losses this year can't be blamed solely on JC, the teams 4 wins at the end of last season can't be solely credited or attributed to Collins. There are 10 other guys on offense and an entire defense that play a roll, win or lose.

[John Manfreda]

I don't think that John is saying he is our savior. Those were words put into his mouth (and in maybe the most immature way -- by "staff" no less). Placing words into others mouths' is something (and for good reason) the "staff" here tends to look down upon, but I guess it is unnecessary to heed their own instruction

I never put any words in anyone's mouth, that's just nonsense. Nor as a staff member, do I have to agree with the hyperbole and unfounded misstatements spewed by some around here. I made a tongue-and-cheek, off-the-cuff joke. Not sure how you interpret that as putting words in someones mouth.

When someone carries on with nothing but drivel and hyperbole that's supported by no facts or even reality, it just becomes comical. Like implying that JC is the worst QB ever. As PulpExposure and Bob accurately pointed out, not only is JC far from being the worst QB in Redskins history, he's not even the worst QB in the league, and that IS supported by facts. And, for the record, John asserting that "we would've made the playoffs if Collins was the starter", implies he thinks Collins could've been a "savior". Nevertheless, it was a joke.

As for Todd Collins, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Not only will he never be a starting QB for the Skins, I'm betting he'll never be a starter for any team in this league. Not only has this team not deemed Collins worthy of being a starter, even Saunders never lobbied for him to be the starter, here or in KC. So I guess many coaches misjudged him, right?

The staff here isn't defending Campbell, as you insinuate. But some here have the common sense to know the teams losses are not solely JC's fault, and that's the point. Every staff member here has been critical of JC and recognizes he shares in the blame, but he's not solely to blame. Just as the teams losses this year can't be blamed solely on JC, the teams 4 wins at the end of last season can't be solely credited or attributed to Collins. There are 10 other guys on offense and an entire defense that play a roll, win or lose.

Yes you are putting words into my mouth. I said if we started Collins last year we may have won our division, 4-0 with Collins while JC was 5-7. In no way can you claim I am wrong. True, he is the wrost Qb we have had, we gave up a first a third and a 4th for him. Payment plus return he is the wrost, those Qb's brought up like Kent Graham we didn't give up anything for them so there irrrelevant. Ramsey was given a raw deal, JC has had plenty of oppurtunities. Second of all last year everyone said when we were 5-7 that the line and Wr are the problem, and we got a new Qb and look what happened. JC is not good by any standard. He has yet to prove himself in any way, other than last year he proved he was a liability. Todd Collins may have taken us to the playoffs this year, and don't give me that system bs, he hasn't been on the field during the regular season, so we don't know if I am wrong or not. All we know is JC is not the guy and he sucks. You are stating mindless dribble. You constantly put words in people's mouth and unbiased observors have even said so. I can't believe how dumb this staff is, why don't you all just say, WE ARE SORRY WE PUT WORDS INTO PEOPLE'S MOUTH'S AND WE DIDN'T REALIZE WHAT WE WERE DOING, AND IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN AS STAFF MEMBERS WE SET THE TONE AND MATURITY LEVEL OF THIS MESSAGE BOARD AND WE HAVE FAILED THE POSTERS AND IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I never said Collins was a saviour or should be the solution, I just pointed out that he has out performed Campbell and that he exsposed the lies people say when our line and Wr's are labeled as the main problem. JC is the main problem it doesn't matter who is blocking or wr's we will fail with him behind center no matter what. Your tone and the way you came after is sticking up for JC, I don't care what you say. Quit trying to act like you didn't put words into people's mouth when unbiased posters said you all are, just retype this and everything will be cool.
WE ARE SORRY WE PUT WORDS INTO PEOPLE'S MOUTH'S AND WE DIDN'T REALIZE WHAT WE WERE DOING, AND IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN AS STAFF MEMBERS WE SET THE TONE AND MATURITY LEVEL OF THIS MESSAGE BOARD, AND WE HAVE FAILED THE POSTERS, AND IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. Just say this and everything will be cool.

[John Manfreda]

I don't think that John is saying he is our savior. Those were words put into his mouth (and in maybe the most immature way -- by "staff" no less). Placing words into others mouths' is something (and for good reason) the "staff" here tends to look down upon, but I guess it is unnecessary to heed their own instruction

I never put any words in anyone's mouth, that's just nonsense. Nor as a staff member, do I have to agree with the hyperbole and unfounded misstatements spewed by some around here. I made a tongue-and-cheek, off-the-cuff joke. Not sure how you interpret that as putting words in someones mouth.

When someone carries on with nothing but drivel and hyperbole that's supported by no facts or even reality, it just becomes comical. Like implying that JC is the worst QB ever. As PulpExposure and Bob accurately pointed out, not only is JC far from being the worst QB in Redskins history, he's not even the worst QB in the league, and that IS supported by facts. And, for the record, John asserting that "we would've made the playoffs if Collins was the starter", implies he thinks Collins could've been a "savior". Nevertheless, it was a joke.

As for Todd Collins, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Not only will he never be a starting QB for the Skins, I'm betting he'll never be a starter for any team in this league. Not only has this team not deemed Collins worthy of being a starter, even Saunders never lobbied for him to be the starter, here or in KC. So I guess many coaches misjudged him, right?

The staff here isn't defending Campbell, as you insinuate. But some here have the common sense to know the teams losses are not solely JC's fault, and that's the point. Every staff member here has been critical of JC and recognizes he shares in the blame, but he's not solely to blame. Just as the teams losses this year can't be blamed solely on JC, the teams 4 wins at the end of last season can't be solely credited or attributed to Collins. There are 10 other guys on offense and an entire defense that play a roll, win or lose.

How are you not putting words into my mouth I said he is our wrost Qb since Shuler, I never said history.

[John Manfreda]

how am I claiming that Collins is a saviour when I want Colt Brennan to start. This shows the lack of intelligence of the people coming after me, and that your logic does not make sense.

Todd Collins is the saviour even though he wants Colt Brennan to start. Wow you guys are stupid.

[John Manfreda]

Again you are putting words into my mouth I never said that if Collins started we would have made the playoffs this year. All I said is that JC needs to go and be replaced and I am dead right on that. He isn't the only problem, but he is the main problem, the root of this horrendus offense. When there is a poisounous plant in your back yard, you kill the root (meaning oust JC), you don't just trim the leaves (tweak the line and Wr's).

[Countertrey]

I think that the new Third generation neuroleptics have proven to be very effective, and are much less likely than the older ones to cause extrapyramidal side effects.

But, that's just me.

[Fios]

I don't think that John is saying he is our savior. Those were words put into his mouth (and in maybe the most immature way -- by "staff" no less). Placing words into others mouths' is something (and for good reason) the "staff" here tends to look down upon, but I guess it is unnecessary to heed their own instruction

I never put any words in anyone's mouth, that's just nonsense. Nor as a staff member, do I have to agree with the hyperbole and unfounded misstatements spewed by some around here. I made a tongue-and-cheek, off-the-cuff joke. Not sure how you interpret that as putting words in someones mouth.

When someone carries on with nothing but drivel and hyperbole that's supported by no facts or even reality, it just becomes comical. Like implying that JC is the worst QB ever. As PulpExposure and Bob accurately pointed out, not only is JC far from being the worst QB in Redskins history, he's not even the worst QB in the league, and that IS supported by facts. And, for the record, John asserting that "we would've made the playoffs if Collins was the starter", implies he thinks Collins could've been a "savior". Nevertheless, it was a joke.

As for Todd Collins, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Not only will he never be a starting QB for the Skins, I'm betting he'll never be a starter for any team in this league. Not only has this team not deemed Collins worthy of being a starter, even Saunders never lobbied for him to be the starter, here or in KC. So I guess many coaches misjudged him, right?

The staff here isn't defending Campbell, as you insinuate. But some here have the common sense to know the teams losses are not solely JC's fault, and that's the point. Every staff member here has been critical of JC and recognizes he shares in the blame, but he's not solely to blame. Just as the teams losses this year can't be blamed solely on JC, the teams 4 wins at the end of last season can't be solely credited or attributed to Collins. There are 10 other guys on offense and an entire defense that play a roll, win or lose.

Yes you are putting words into my mouth. I said if we started Collins last year we may have won our division, 4-0 with Collins while JC was 5-7. In no way can you claim I am wrong. True, he is the wrost Qb we have had, we gave up a first a third and a 4th for him. Payment plus return he is the wrost, those Qb's brought up like Kent Graham we didn't give up anything for them so there irrrelevant. Ramsey was given a raw deal, JC has had plenty of oppurtunities. Second of all last year everyone said when we were 5-7 that the line and Wr are the problem, and we got a new Qb and look what happened. JC is not good by any standard. He has yet to prove himself in any way, other than last year he proved he was a liability. Todd Collins may have taken us to the playoffs this year, and don't give me that system bs, he hasn't been on the field during the regular season, so we don't know if I am wrong or not. All we know is JC is not the guy and he sucks. You are stating mindless dribble. You constantly put words in people's mouth and unbiased observors have even said so. I can't believe how dumb this staff is, why don't you all just say, WE ARE SORRY WE PUT WORDS INTO PEOPLE'S MOUTH'S AND WE DIDN'T REALIZE WHAT WE WERE DOING, AND IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN AS STAFF MEMBERS WE SET THE TONE AND MATURITY LEVEL OF THIS MESSAGE BOARD AND WE HAVE FAILED THE POSTERS AND IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I never said Collins was a saviour or should be the solution, I just pointed out that he has out performed Campbell and that he exsposed the lies people say when our line and Wr's are labeled as the main problem. JC is the main problem it doesn't matter who is blocking or wr's we will fail with him behind center no matter what. Your tone and the way you came after is sticking up for JC, I don't care what you say. Quit trying to act like you didn't put words into people's mouth when unbiased posters said you all are, just retype this and everything will be cool.
WE ARE SORRY WE PUT WORDS INTO PEOPLE'S MOUTH'S AND WE DIDN'T REALIZE WHAT WE WERE DOING, AND IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN AS STAFF MEMBERS WE SET THE TONE AND MATURITY LEVEL OF THIS MESSAGE BOARD, AND WE HAVE FAILED THE POSTERS, AND IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. Just say this and everything will be cool.

Check your PMs

[VetSkinsFan]

I'd like to point out, John who knows all, that when you insert words and phrases such as "may," "could have," and "probably," these are then classified as opinions. Speculation. These are easy ways to back out later and say "well I never GUARANTEED IT. Any idiot can say "<insert QB name> would have done better than JC!!! You guys are idiots!!1!! I'm 1337 b/c you can't prove me wrong!!!11!!! Fans at home can prove very little beyond a reasonable doubt. I know I come to this board to have a debate of OPINIONS, b/c honestly, facts are facts and are pretty cut and dry.

How about for once, you put your sack on the table and be definitive. Have a clear cut opinion without phrases like "If Collins started, we MAY have wone the division." It's hindsight, it's speculation, and it's IMFREAKINGPOSSIBLE to prove. And it's in the pats. There's nothing wrong to say JC isn't the answer and 1 2 3 is why. That's an opinion, and it's debatable. But it's your opinion.

[SkinsFreak]

The evaluation of Campbell's play is a key part of the process. The fourth-year quarterback, who has worked closely with Zorn since February, performed at the highest level of his career in leading the Redskins during their strong first half. As the offensive line experienced major breakdowns in pass protection later in the season, however, Campbell had a significant drop-off in production.

In each of the last two games, Campbell has passed for fewer than 170 yards. He had only a 65.7 passer rating against Philadelphia -- his third-lowest of the season. Campbell's statistics are not among the league leaders but "I think he's made a lot of progress up to this point," Cerrato said. "Last year, I think he had 13 fumbles [losing eight] in 12 games. He's improved a ton on that.

"Just the way he handles checks and getting us out of bad plays, changing pass protections, he's controlling that at the line of scrimmage. Statistically, and everything he has improved, you see fundamentally how he's improved. To me, he's made great strides up to this point. Is he where he can be? No. He's got room. He's got a high ceiling. Has he gotten there yet? No. He hasn't reached his potential yet. He's still learning, growing and developing."

But Cerrato stopped short of saying he is convinced that Campbell could become a championship-caliber quarterback. "I don't think you can answer that," he said. "How do you know? He's still developing and learning."

The Redskins have age and injury concerns along the offensive and defensive lines. Pro Bowl left tackle Chris Samuels, 31, has missed the last two games and is on season-ending injured reserve after having surgery to repair a torn triceps. Right tackle Jon Jansen, 32, the Redskins' longest-tenured player, also has sat out the last two weeks because of a sprain of the medial collateral ligament in his left knee. An ankle injury in the opener against Miami ended Jansen's 2007 season, and he missed the entire 2004 season because of a ruptured Achilles' tendon.

The offensive line's pass-protection problems could be the biggest impediment to Campbell's development.

This clearly backs up what many of us have said, and Cerrato also recognizes the same things. This should end some myths being spread around this board.

To recap...

1. "Just the way he handles checks and getting us out of bad plays, changing pass protections, he's controlling that at the line of scrimmage." Some of you have claimed that JC doesn't do those things.

2. Vinny clearly states that although JC's numbers are better and he's statistically having his best year to date, Vinny goes on to say... "Is he where he can be? No. He's got room. He's got a high ceiling. Has he gotten there yet? No. He hasn't reached his potential yet. He's still learning, growing and developing."

3. "The offensive line's pass-protection problems could be the biggest impediment to Campbell's development."

And that's all some of us are saying. Although JC has gotten better, he's definitely not there yet, and Cerrato recognizes that too. But the teams woes aren't entirely his fault and poor pass protection is a contributing factor. And as I've said before, I'd be very happy to see an open QB competition this offseason.

Some have previously said Aaron Rodgers was a better QB and he's having such a great year. Well, after a nice start to their season, Rodgers and the Packers are now 5-10 and out of the playoffs. That's curious, since Rodgers is the superior QB. JC and the Skins have a better record playing in a tougher division.

[JansenFan]

I can't believe how dumb this staff is

This shows your lack of intelligence and how your not using the facts when you state something. This shows what an idiot you are.

Wow you guys are stupid.

John, you have been warned multiple times via PM about following the rule regarding personal attacks. As you continue not to get it via PM, I am making this warning public.

Attacking the poster is not tolerated outside of Talking Smack. This rule applies to everyone, including staff members, and prohibits personal attacks on everyone else, including staff members.

If you have a problem with a staff member, call them out in smack or PM them. If you feel you are being mistreated, PM me. But if you continue to make personal attacks in any forum other than smack, you will be suspended.

Everyone makes mistakes and breaks rules, but to continue to break them in the face of multiple warnings is unacceptable and cannot be tolerated.

This is your fifth warning in the last two days, and is your last. I would have given you the courtesy of sending this in PM, but you are either ignoring them or not reading them, so I apologize for the public manner of this warning.

[markshark84]

The evaluation of Campbell's play is a key part of the process. The fourth-year quarterback, who has worked closely with Zorn since February, performed at the highest level of his career in leading the Redskins during their strong first half. As the offensive line experienced major breakdowns in pass protection later in the season, however, Campbell had a significant drop-off in production.

In each of the last two games, Campbell has passed for fewer than 170 yards. He had only a 65.7 passer rating against Philadelphia -- his third-lowest of the season. Campbell's statistics are not among the league leaders but "I think he's made a lot of progress up to this point," Cerrato said. "Last year, I think he had 13 fumbles [losing eight] in 12 games. He's improved a ton on that.

"Just the way he handles checks and getting us out of bad plays, changing pass protections, he's controlling that at the line of scrimmage. Statistically, and everything he has improved, you see fundamentally how he's improved. To me, he's made great strides up to this point. Is he where he can be? No. He's got room. He's got a high ceiling. Has he gotten there yet? No. He hasn't reached his potential yet. He's still learning, growing and developing."

But Cerrato stopped short of saying he is convinced that Campbell could become a championship-caliber quarterback. "I don't think you can answer that," he said. "How do you know? He's still developing and learning."

The Redskins have age and injury concerns along the offensive and defensive lines. Pro Bowl left tackle Chris Samuels, 31, has missed the last two games and is on season-ending injured reserve after having surgery to repair a torn triceps. Right tackle Jon Jansen, 32, the Redskins' longest-tenured player, also has sat out the last two weeks because of a sprain of the medial collateral ligament in his left knee. An ankle injury in the opener against Miami ended Jansen's 2007 season, and he missed the entire 2004 season because of a ruptured Achilles' tendon.

The offensive line's pass-protection problems could be the biggest impediment to Campbell's development.

This clearly backs up what many of us have said, and Cerrato also recognizes the same things. This should end some myths being spread around this board.

To recap...

1. "Just the way he handles checks and getting us out of bad plays, changing pass protections, he's controlling that at the line of scrimmage." Some of you have claimed that JC doesn't do those things.

2. Vinny clearly states that although JC's numbers are better and he's statistically having his best year to date, Vinny goes on to say... "Is he where he can be? No. He's got room. He's got a high ceiling. Has he gotten there yet? No. He hasn't reached his potential yet. He's still learning, growing and developing."

3. "The offensive line's pass-protection problems could be the biggest impediment to Campbell's development."

And that's all some of us are saying. Although JC has gotten better, he's definitely not there yet, and Cerrato recognizes that too. But the teams woes aren't entirely his fault and poor pass protection is a contributing factor. And as I've said before, I'd be very happy to see an open QB competition this offseason.

Some have previously said Aaron Rodgers was a better QB and he's having such a great year. Well, after a nice start to their season, Rodgers and the Packers are now 5-10 and out of the playoffs. That's curious, since Rodgers is the superior QB. JC and the Skins have a better record playing in a tougher division.

Using Cerrato as a point of SUPPORT.

That's like saying someone has NBA talent because Isaih Thomas likes him.

Hold on, one more time.



And the Rodgers thing is totally ridiculous. Absolutley crazy to even compare. The packers defense is 22nd in the league ---- while the Skins have the 4th BEST. That may have a little to do with their W-L total. Packers have the 9th BEST passing offense in the league. Skins are 22nd. Additionally the Packers have one of the worst run offenses in the league. Rodgers also has more TDs, more passing yards, a way better rating, less to work with, and MOST IMPORTANTLY way way way more points per game. To even compare Rodgers to Campbell is ludicris. To put it mildly, your logic is very flawed.

Poor pass protection???? At points yes, but against Philly he had adequate pass protection and put up a huge 10 points.

VC sites potential. After 4 years he is still learning? How long is this going to take. He's going to retire before he is finished adjusting to the system.

I commend the apologists for supporting Campbell and doing a decent job of it, especially when it is so hard to do so, but at some point you will have to face the music and realize that JC can only carry us through the shades of mediocrity, and, without a top 5 defense, will place us at the bottom of the league.

[SkinsFreak]

VC sites potential. After 4 years he is still learning? How long is this going to take. He's going to retire before he is finished adjusting to the system.

If it was 4 years in the same system, like Aaron Rodgers has been, then you'd have a point. But the entire offense, not just JC, is still learning Zorn's system.

The point I was trying to make with Vinny's comments, which you missed completely, was that even the higher ups at Redskins Park recognize JC isn't there yet, when Vinny says... "Is he where he can be? No. He's got room. He's got a high ceiling. Has he gotten there yet? No. He hasn't reached his potential yet." I'm not defending JC, as you incorrectly like to insinuate with your posts. I'm saying the same thing Cerrato is saying; improvements, but not yet there. And further, how many times do I have to say I'd like to see an open QB competition in the offseason? Even Vinny said the following... "But Cerrato stopped short of saying he is convinced that Campbell could become a championship-caliber quarterback. "I don't think you can answer that," he said. "How do you know?"

[John Manfreda]

JC is not learning a new offense, he ran the WCO his senior year in college. He is firmilar with this. Thats the biggest myth going. Learning a new offense does not stunt a Qb's growth, Brett Favre and Chad Pennington are doing just fine. Flaco and Matt Ryan are doing just fine and there rookies. People saying on this board are completley bsing, when they claim we don't think he is the almighty. They way you guys come after someone when they criticize JC, with such milicous intent shows that you guys think JC is the almighty, and you all need to to admit your wrong, he sucks and we need to start another Qb. He is not the guy and never will be. Untill you all starting posting different opinions and start criticizing JC everyone here besides a couple think he is a championship caliber Qb, why? because your actions have spoked loud and clear. Get over it, he sucks, you guys were wrong, and we need a new qb DESPERTLY.
START COLT BRENNAN

[John Manfreda]

The evaluation of Campbell's play is a key part of the process. The fourth-year quarterback, who has worked closely with Zorn since February, performed at the highest level of his career in leading the Redskins during their strong first half. As the offensive line experienced major breakdowns in pass protection later in the season, however, Campbell had a significant drop-off in production.

In each of the last two games, Campbell has passed for fewer than 170 yards. He had only a 65.7 passer rating against Philadelphia -- his third-lowest of the season. Campbell's statistics are not among the league leaders but "I think he's made a lot of progress up to this point," Cerrato said. "Last year, I think he had 13 fumbles [losing eight] in 12 games. He's improved a ton on that.

"Just the way he handles checks and getting us out of bad plays, changing pass protections, he's controlling that at the line of scrimmage. Statistically, and everything he has improved, you see fundamentally how he's improved. To me, he's made great strides up to this point. Is he where he can be? No. He's got room. He's got a high ceiling. Has he gotten there yet? No. He hasn't reached his potential yet. He's still learning, growing and developing."

But Cerrato stopped short of saying he is convinced that Campbell could become a championship-caliber quarterback. "I don't think you can answer that," he said. "How do you know? He's still developing and learning."

The Redskins have age and injury concerns along the offensive and defensive lines. Pro Bowl left tackle Chris Samuels, 31, has missed the last two games and is on season-ending injured reserve after having surgery to repair a torn triceps. Right tackle Jon Jansen, 32, the Redskins' longest-tenured player, also has sat out the last two weeks because of a sprain of the medial collateral ligament in his left knee. An ankle injury in the opener against Miami ended Jansen's 2007 season, and he missed the entire 2004 season because of a ruptured Achilles' tendon.

The offensive line's pass-protection problems could be the biggest impediment to Campbell's development.

This clearly backs up what many of us have said, and Cerrato also recognizes the same things. This should end some myths being spread around this board.

To recap...

1. "Just the way he handles checks and getting us out of bad plays, changing pass protections, he's controlling that at the line of scrimmage." Some of you have claimed that JC doesn't do those things.

2. Vinny clearly states that although JC's numbers are better and he's statistically having his best year to date, Vinny goes on to say... "Is he where he can be? No. He's got room. He's got a high ceiling. Has he gotten there yet? No. He hasn't reached his potential yet. He's still learning, growing and developing."

3. "The offensive line's pass-protection problems could be the biggest impediment to Campbell's development."

And that's all some of us are saying. Although JC has gotten better, he's definitely not there yet, and Cerrato recognizes that too. But the teams woes aren't entirely his fault and poor pass protection is a contributing factor. And as I've said before, I'd be very happy to see an open QB competition this offseason.

Some have previously said Aaron Rodgers was a better QB and he's having such a great year. Well, after a nice start to their season, Rodgers and the Packers are now 5-10 and out of the playoffs. That's curious, since Rodgers is the superior QB. JC and the Skins have a better record playing in a tougher division.

Using Cerrato as a point of SUPPORT.

That's like saying someone has NBA talent because Isaih Thomas likes him.

Hold on, one more time.



And the Rodgers thing is totally ridiculous. Absolutley crazy to even compare. The packers defense is 22nd in the league ---- while the Skins have the 4th BEST. That may have a little to do with their W-L total. Packers have the 9th BEST passing offense in the league. Skins are 22nd. Additionally the Packers have one of the worst run offenses in the league. Rodgers also has more TDs, more passing yards, a way better rating, less to work with, and MOST IMPORTANTLY way way way more points per game. To even compare Rodgers to Campbell is ludicris. To put it mildly, your logic is very flawed.

Poor pass protection???? At points yes, but against Philly he had adequate pass protection and put up a huge 10 points.

VC sites potential. After 4 years he is still learning? How long is this going to take. He's going to retire before he is finished adjusting to the system.

I commend the apologists for supporting Campbell and doing a decent job of it, especially when it is so hard to do so, but at some point you will have to face the music and realize that JC can only carry us through the shades of mediocrity, and, without a top 5 defense, will place us at the bottom of the league.

I know, who is there next source about evaluating talent Matt Millen.

[markshark84]

VC sites potential. After 4 years he is still learning? How long is this going to take. He's going to retire before he is finished adjusting to the system.

If it was 4 years in the same system, like Aaron Rodgers has been, then you'd have a point. But the entire offense, not just JC, is still learning Zorn's system.

The point I was trying to make with Vinny's comments, which you missed completely, was that even the higher ups at Redskins Park recognize JC isn't there yet, when Vinny says... "Is he where he can be? No. He's got room. He's got a high ceiling. Has he gotten there yet? No. He hasn't reached his potential yet." I'm not defending JC, as you incorrectly like to insinuate with your posts. I'm saying the same thing Cerrato is saying; improvements, but not yet there. And further, how many times do I have to say I'd like to see an open QB competition in the offseason? Even Vinny said the following... "But Cerrato stopped short of saying he is convinced that Campbell could become a championship-caliber quarterback. "I don't think you can answer that," he said. "How do you know?"

Oh, sorry. Still getting a kick out of the VC reference. As if his opinion is one of worth. I'm still waiting for an Isaih reference. I would love one. What does Isaih think of JC. If he is a go, it is FACT that JC is the best QB in the NFL right now.

Seriously though, I think that what you are missing completely is the fact that JC has shown absolutely NO improvement and even CONSIDERING him to be potentially a championship-caliber QB is idiotic and boarders on insanity. He sites fumbles???? What???? I care about points scored, passing yards, passing rating, you know --- the stats that MATTER. The funniest part is the "how do you know" quote. Priceless. I swear VC is a straight up baffoon.

Now I do agree that he hasn't met his potential yet. Most QBs don't reach their potential until they are 5 years into the league, so hopefully next year he will magically transform into a "championship-caliber" QB. Oh, I love that quote. I may use it more often.

Personally, I don't really care if you are or are not defending JC. I don't, however, understand then why you are even in on this discussion. Are you saying that we should wait and see? Not be proactive? Stick to the mediocrity to below averageness of the skins current offense? Is that your position? I see and identified your Rodgers point, but do not see eye to eye with you on it. I don't see your JC point. You don't have a position other than the ones I socratically stated above, I guess.

The thing is, I don't understand how anyone says "oh he isn't where he needs to be, so we should just wait another year, see if he improves, and make an assessment at that point". I consider that crazy. What would happen if anyone else wasn't performing? They would replace or cut them. Why aren't we doing that with our single biggest weakness in our offense?

And I don't want to hear all the excuses. Rodgers is better. The stats prove that. It is cut and dry and obvious. System. Whatever. Good QBs adjust to systems. They don't need 3 years to do it. JC has been in the WCO for 2 years now and still looks lost. He needs to put on the big boy pants and join the N-F-L.

A wise man once said "you are what you are" (hopefully you know who coined that famous quote). And right now, JC is a below average QB and has been a below average QB since he got here. It is the "lets wait and see" attitude and the abundance of excuses that are provided for JC that kills me.

[VetSkinsFan]

JC is not learning a new offense, he ran the WCO his senior year in college. He is firmilar with this. Thats the biggest myth going. Learning a new offense does not stunt a Qb's growth, Brett Favre and Chad Pennington are doing just fine. Flaco and Matt Ryan are doing just fine and there rookies. People saying on this board are completley bsing, when they claim we don't think he is the almighty. They way you guys come after someone when they criticize JC, with such milicous intent shows that you guys think JC is the almighty, and you all need to to admit your wrong, he sucks and we need to start another Qb. He is not the guy and never will be. Untill you all starting posting different opinions and start criticizing JC everyone here besides a couple think he is a championship caliber Qb, why? because your actions have spoked loud and clear. Get over it, he sucks, you guys were wrong, and we need a new qb DESPERTLY.
START COLT BRENNAN

Honestly, it's not as cut and dry as you either think JC is all mighty or is a complete bust. There are people who still think that there is a potential in JC. I think that JC could survive in a slower developing offense, but in a fast paced WCO that we have, it's either: a) he's not quick enough to learn it or b) he's not comfortable enough with the system to make those quick subconscious reads.

Using Favre as an example is NOT the same. Favre was under one system for a long time and changed with the Jets. That's different than never being able to get comfortable in a system YOUR WHOLE CAREER.

Flacco has an incredible defense to support him. An example: he had TWO backs go over 100 yards last week. McClain (139 yds) and McGahee (109 yds). Flacco himself only had 149 yds passing and a 68% completion . Flacco only has 2674 yds on the season

Ryan only had 134 yds passing last week and a 54% completion. Ryan's doing better with 3280 yds on the season

JC had 144 yds this past week with a 55% completion. JC's got 3089 yds on the season.

Those aren't stellar numbers from the rooks.

For your example, Favre had 187 yds and a 58% completion. He's got 3239 yds on the year.

Pennington had 235 yards and a good completion percentage of 76%. He's got 3453 yds on the year.

All the people you've named aren't that far off of JC's numbers. Nothing to be writing home about IMO.

[Fios]

Oh, sorry. Still getting a kick out of the VC reference. As if his opinion is one of worth. I'm still waiting for an Isaih reference. I would love one. What does Isaih think of JC. If he is a go, it is FACT that JC is the best QB in the NFL right now.

Who is Isaih?

Seriously though, I think that what you are missing completely is the fact that JC has shown absolutely NO improvement and even CONSIDERING him to be potentially a championship-caliber QB is idiotic and boarders on insanity. He sites fumbles???? What???? I care about points scored, passing yards, passing rating, you know --- the stats that MATTER. The funniest part is the "how do you know" quote. Priceless. I swear VC is a straight up baffoon.

First, if you want to call someone a buffoon you should, you know, spell it correctly. Secondly, this:

http://www.nfl.com/players/jasoncampbel ... =CAM375235

You'll note his passer rating, completion percentage and yards have gone up -- also known as improved -- each year. I know though, it's easier to engage in hyperbole than actual facts. Note, I'm not saying I think the world of JC, in fact I think his ceiling is lower than I did at the start of the season. But you said: "I care about points scored, passing yards, passing rating, you know --- the stats that MATTER." and then failed to note the improvement in 2 of the 3 stats that MATTER.

[Bob 0119]

Seriously though, I think that what you are missing completely is the fact that JC has shown absolutely NO improvement

Jason Campbell

2007 vs. 2008

Completion %: 60.0 < 62.4
Interceptions: 11 > 6
Sacks: 21 < 37
Rating: 77.6 < 84.3

Now I didn't include any of his Attmpts, completions, yardage etc because he has played two more games this year than last so you would expect them to be higher (and they are).

I will also concede that his avg per completion is identical from last year to this year at 6.5.

The part that most of these types of posters are missing is that this isn't a celebration of "how great Jason Campbell is" this is simply correcting an unqualified attack. He has in fact shown SOME improvement.

That doesn't mean we (the people accused of "defending" Campbell) are ready to hoist him to the HoF, it's just that we can't sit by and let people say things like

"he's the worst QB since Heath Shuler"

"he's the worst QB in the league"

"he's the reason we suck" (which I think anyone will tell you that's at best partially true along with poor pass protection, an ineffective reciever corps, and poor play-calling)

"he has shown no improvement"

Without challenging them with the facts.

[PulpExposure]

Personally, I don't really care if you are or are not defending JC. I don't, however, understand then why you are even in on this discussion. Are you saying that we should wait and see? Not be proactive? Stick to the mediocrity to below averageness of the skins current offense? Is that your position? I see and identified your Rodgers point, but do not see eye to eye with you on it. I don't see your JC point. You don't have a position other than the ones I socratically stated above, I guess.

The thing is, I don't understand how anyone says "oh he isn't where he needs to be, so we should just wait another year, see if he improves, and make an assessment at that point". I consider that crazy. What would happen if anyone else wasn't performing? They would replace or cut them. Why aren't we doing that with our single biggest weakness in our offense?

I don't think anyone here (and Cerrato isn't here...) is saying JC is a lock to start next year. From what I can recall, even the most ardent "Campbell defenders" are saying...have an open QB competition next year. Whoever looks the best...should play. Period.

Just personally, I'm not willing to say that Campbell can't win that open competition, and, therefore we should ditch him immediately. That's a short-sighted mindset that's reflected in many posters on this board who are willing to evaluate last years draft based on one year. Have to think a little longer than that.

[VetSkinsFan]

Personally, I don't really care if you are or are not defending JC. I don't, however, understand then why you are even in on this discussion. Are you saying that we should wait and see? Not be proactive? Stick to the mediocrity to below averageness of the skins current offense? Is that your position? I see and identified your Rodgers point, but do not see eye to eye with you on it. I don't see your JC point. You don't have a position other than the ones I socratically stated above, I guess.

The thing is, I don't understand how anyone says "oh he isn't where he needs to be, so we should just wait another year, see if he improves, and make an assessment at that point". I consider that crazy. What would happen if anyone else wasn't performing? They would replace or cut them. Why aren't we doing that with our single biggest weakness in our offense?

I don't think anyone here (and Cerrato isn't here...) is saying JC is a lock to start next year. From what I can recall, even the most ardent "Campbell defenders" are saying...have an open QB competition next year. Whoever looks the best...should play. Period.

Just personally, I'm not willing to say that Campbell can't win that open competition, and, therefore we should ditch him immediately. That's a short-sighted mindset that's reflected in many posters on this board who are willing to evaluate last years draft based on one year. Have to think a little longer than that.

LIES!!! CUT 'EM ALL!!!

[markshark84]

JC is not learning a new offense, he ran the WCO his senior year in college. He is firmilar with this. Thats the biggest myth going. Learning a new offense does not stunt a Qb's growth, Brett Favre and Chad Pennington are doing just fine. Flaco and Matt Ryan are doing just fine and there rookies. People saying on this board are completley bsing, when they claim we don't think he is the almighty. They way you guys come after someone when they criticize JC, with such milicous intent shows that you guys think JC is the almighty, and you all need to to admit your wrong, he sucks and we need to start another Qb. He is not the guy and never will be. Untill you all starting posting different opinions and start criticizing JC everyone here besides a couple think he is a championship caliber Qb, why? because your actions have spoked loud and clear. Get over it, he sucks, you guys were wrong, and we need a new qb DESPERTLY.
START COLT BRENNAN

Honestly, it's not as cut and dry as you either think JC is all mighty or is a complete bust. There are people who still think that there is a potential in JC. I think that JC could survive in a slower developing offense, but in a fast paced WCO that we have, it's either: a) he's not quick enough to learn it or b) he's not comfortable enough with the system to make those quick subconscious reads.

Using Favre as an example is NOT the same. Favre was under one system for a long time and changed with the Jets. That's different than never being able to get comfortable in a system YOUR WHOLE CAREER.

Flacco has an incredible defense to support him. An example: he had TWO backs go over 100 yards last week. McClain (139 yds) and McGahee (109 yds). Flacco himself only had 149 yds passing and a 68% completion . Flacco only has 2674 yds on the season

Ryan only had 134 yds passing last week and a 54% completion. Ryan's doing better with 3280 yds on the season

JC had 144 yds this past week with a 55% completion. JC's got 3089 yds on the season.

Those aren't stellar numbers from the rooks.

For your example, Favre had 187 yds and a 58% completion. He's got 3239 yds on the year.

Pennington had 235 yards and a good completion percentage of 76%. He's got 3453 yds on the year.

All the people you've named aren't that far off of JC's numbers. Nothing to be writing home about IMO.

Trust me, I also think that there is potential in JC. I think that he can become a good QB, BUT BUT BUT not in this system and his progession (or lack thereof) has taken way longer than it should. BUT, I don't want a QB that can "survive"; I want one that thrives.

You are correct in that JC is too slow to work the WCO. And your comment on how JC has NEVER been comfortable in a system his whole career is telling. The only good season he had was with the TWO best RBs in all of college football that year. Maybe that provides us a clue into what he needs to win, perhaps??? Maybe there was a reason he was a 2-3rd rounder on most draft boards that year.

But, I tend to disagree with the analysis on the other QBs. For Favre, it IS about about changing offensive schemes. The fact that JC has never been comfortable only helps the arguement against JC. At least Favre can adjust. Secondly, while passing yards are important, JC's passing production came in the beginning of the year; his de-gression has been unbelievable. Also, the most important stat, points scored is vastly scuewed towards the others mentioned; not JC. The Jets are 5th in the league. Falcons are 11th. Ravens are 13th. We are 28th. The 0-15 LIONS have scored more points than we have this year. And just for kicks the Packers and Rodgers are 5th (tied with Jets).

On a side note, I don't think Flacco is that great anyway (although, having more TDs and an overall better season). Then again, our defense only gives up 22 more yards and 2 more points a game; so I don't think defense is a glaring difference between the two.

[John Manfreda]

JC is not learning a new offense, he ran the WCO his senior year in college. He is firmilar with this. Thats the biggest myth going. Learning a new offense does not stunt a Qb's growth, Brett Favre and Chad Pennington are doing just fine. Flaco and Matt Ryan are doing just fine and there rookies. People saying on this board are completley bsing, when they claim we don't think he is the almighty. They way you guys come after someone when they criticize JC, with such milicous intent shows that you guys think JC is the almighty, and you all need to to admit your wrong, he sucks and we need to start another Qb. He is not the guy and never will be. Untill you all starting posting different opinions and start criticizing JC everyone here besides a couple think he is a championship caliber Qb, why? because your actions have spoked loud and clear. Get over it, he sucks, you guys were wrong, and we need a new qb DESPERTLY.
START COLT BRENNAN

Honestly, it's not as cut and dry as you either think JC is all mighty or is a complete bust. There are people who still think that there is a potential in JC. I think that JC could survive in a slower developing offense, but in a fast paced WCO that we have, it's either: a) he's not quick enough to learn it or b) he's not comfortable enough with the system to make those quick subconscious reads.

Using Favre as an example is NOT the same. Favre was under one system for a long time and changed with the Jets. That's different than never being able to get comfortable in a system YOUR WHOLE CAREER.

Flacco has an incredible defense to support him. An example: he had TWO backs go over 100 yards last week. McClain (139 yds) and McGahee (109 yds). Flacco himself only had 149 yds passing and a 68% completion . Flacco only has 2674 yds on the season

Ryan only had 134 yds passing last week and a 54% completion. Ryan's doing better with 3280 yds on the season

JC had 144 yds this past week with a 55% completion. JC's got 3089 yds on the season.

Those aren't stellar numbers from the rooks.

For your example, Favre had 187 yds and a 58% completion. He's got 3239 yds on the year.

Pennington had 235 yards and a good completion percentage of 76%. He's got 3453 yds on the year.

All the people you've named aren't that far off of JC's numbers. Nothing to be writing home about IMO.

JC has the 4th ranked defense to suppot him. So your saying that JC has to have the 2nd or the best defense in order for him to thrive? That shows that we need to cut him loose and let him go. How many times have the redskins had the 2nd or best D in the league. Our defense is doing well, and its good enough to support any okay Qb in the league. The fact that you claim that the D is not god enough to support JC shows how bad JC is. There not stellar numbers? So you think that Pennington and Favre are having a bad year? Yes or no, don't give me this bs. Everyone is saying there having good years, so I guess your the only one. JC has not improved one bit, and he really sucks, he needs to go. Start Colt Brennan

[VetSkinsFan]

For Favre, it IS about about changing offensive schemes. The fact that JC has never been comfortable only helps the arguement against JC. At least Favre can adjust.

My example with Favre is that he's been in a system long enough to gain confidence in himself. If I were in JC's shoes with a different O scheme almost EVERY YEAR, I don't think I would have much confidence, either. He's not had the chance to prove to himself, let alone anyone else, that he has what it takes at this level.

Favre, being in the same system for god knows how long, had that opportunity to gain self confidence. He went to a new system knowing that he can cut it at the pro level b/c he's done it. With JC never being in one system long enough to mater it, what do you think it does to his confidence?

I'm not knocking Favre, by far, I'm showing the apples and oranges comparison to arguably the most established QB in the league to JC.