Is it time......

[roybus14]

for Snyder to drop back five and punt??? I mean, he's got money and made money with this franchise two-fold. But is it now time for him to realize that he needs to take a step back and start this thing fresh?

Declare this coming off-season as the start of his re-climation project where he privately and publicly states and shows that he is willing to blow up this team from top to bottom, start fresh, take his lumps but stay the course with building a strong front office, putting in a consistent coaching staff that is all new including alot of the players. Basically take this team back and rebuild it like it was an expansion team.

But in order for him to do that, he's got to ensure the fans, players, and prospective/future hires are clear as to what he is trying do and that he is committed to staying that course until we can field a team with playoff success. He's got to let alot of these players go including Portis as they have been part of this mess. Keep a core group of offensive, defensive and special teams player here but build on that.

Your thoughts?????

[Wahoo McDaniels]

for Snyder to drop back five and punt??? I mean, he's got money and made money with this franchise two-fold. But is it now time for him to realize that he needs to take a step back and start this thing fresh?

Declare this coming off-season as the start of his re-climation project where he privately and publicly states and shows that he is willing to blow up this team from top to bottom, start fresh, take his lumps but stay the course with building a strong front office, putting in a consistent coaching staff that is all new including alot of the players. Basically take this team back and rebuild it like it was an expansion team.

But in order for him to do that, he's got to ensure the fans, players, and prospective/future hires are clear as to what he is trying do and that he is committed to staying that course until we can field a team with playoff success. He's got to let alot of these players go including Portis as they have been part of this mess. Keep a core group of offensive, defensive and special teams player here but build on that.

Your thoughts?????

If by asking if it's time for "Snyder to drop back 5 and punt" you mean is it time for him to sell the team? I think it is. The guy is incapable of running this thing effectively, except as a money making venture. I think that he could trade the business in exchange for a nice tobacco company since he has a history of killing people (the fans) who are addicted to his product (the Redskins).

He has built up more monetary capital and destroyed more political capital than anyone else in the history of the NFL (except maybe Al Davis). No respectable head coach will even come close to this franchise anymore. Our options now are Jim Zorn (offensive genius), Brian Billick (offensive genius), or Jim Fassal (desperate offensive genius who I'm sure has started a letter writing campaign to Snyder as we speak).

How do you start over with this level of dysfunction? Where do you start?

[Wahoo McDaniels]

It might be time to organize something like this....

http://www.whodeyrevolution.com/whodeyr ... ealed.html

Although a win-loss record like 75-83 that the Skins have since Snyder took over isn't as compelling as 98-186 like the Bengals have, it sure isn't good.

[John Manfreda]

It might be time to organize something like this....

http://www.whodeyrevolution.com/whodeyr ... ealed.html

Although a win-loss record like 75-83 that the Skins have since Snyder took over isn't as compelling as 98-186 like the Bengals have, it sure isn't good.

I think the Redskins need to organize a boycott. Stop buying Redskins merchandise until Snyder agrees to sell the team.

[SKINFAN]

LMAO! How is this Snyd's fault? Is he running recieving or tackling out there?

[roybus14]

I don't think that selling the team is the move. I think that Snyder has to throw himself and his ego under the bus and rebuild this team from scratch.

He and Vinny have shown the fans, the coaches, and the players that Clinton can do what he wants. He now has to blow it up at least on the offense and the special teams and get in a Football GM and a coach offensive and special teams staff that will not put up with any bull, including Clinton's. Hell, we got Betts so if Clinton can't conform, then sit him and draft a young and hungry back. It won't hurt nothing because we are rebuilding. And if he becomes a distraction, Stephon Marbury him. Yes I know Portis' cap hit is huge but we rebuilding.

[RedskinsFreak]

I don't think that selling the team is the move. I think that Snyder has to throw himself and his ego under the bus and LET SOMEONE ELSE rebuild this team from scratch.

I put the operative phrase in there. He would have to completely sever himself from the day-to-day operations. Don't roam the halls. Don't think you belong in the film room and on scouting trips.

You'd have to change the locks at Redskins Park and make sure Snyder doesn't have a key.

[John Manfreda]

LMAO! How is this Snyd's fault? Is he running recieving or tackling out there?

No, but he picks the players, and doesn't run things effectively. We have had how many coaches since he has been here? All the same result. He needs to go. He has never said I am not picking good players we need to bring in a football guy who knows how to do that. The only way Danny would stop owning the team is if he started to loose money. Redskins fans need to take action, and stop buying Redskin merchandise, stop going to games until Snyder sells the team.

[DEHog]

LMAO! How is this Snyd's fault? Is he running recieving or tackling out there?

No, but he picks the players, and doesn't run things effectively. We have had how many coaches since he has been here? All the same result. He needs to go. He has never said I am not picking good players we need to bring in a football guy who knows how to do that. The only way Danny would stop owning the team is if he started to loose money. Redskins fans need to take action, and stop buying Redskin merchandise, stop going to games until Snyder sells the team.

Snyder doesn't care if we stop going to the games...he's a bottom line guy and the Skins are making money...I think the only thing that would get his attention is if the Skins started to depreciate...now how do we do that...

[cleg]

Need a total rebuild of the organization from top to bottem.

[roybus14]

Need a total rebuild of the organization from top to bottem.

The owner doesn't need to sell the team. Here's what I would do if it were me...

-- Come out in a press conference as the owner and declare that I will begin this off-season as a reclaimation project starting with the front office down.

-- I would search for a qualified GM or a qualified GM's longtime assistant who is ready to become a GM and hire them. I would then have a conversation with this person about who they thought should be the next head coach and discuss Cowher, Grimm and any other up and coming assistant that may be ready for a HC job.

-- I would have a conversation with Cowher or Russ Grimm or another top assistant (ensure I abide by the Rooney Rule of course) ready to become a head coach if the GM recommended them.

-- Once we have met and he makes his recommendation then pursue that guy.

-- The guy signed as HC, he and the GM would then work together to build the entire coaching staff.

-- Then sit down with them and go over their plan for this team with my emphasis on building through the draft and if we build through free agency to do so with young guys and not old veterans. Trim some of this fat and get rid of some of these players keeping core players on offense, defense and special teams and rebuild the rest.

-- Then go over our critical needs to be addressed (OL, DL, LB, RB) in the draft and how do we get more draft picks and/or "young" free agency.

-- Then I would put together a marketing strategy to keep our fans upbeat about this reclaimation project and get out of the way and worry about the marketing.

-- Once the draft is over and the GM and Coach have shopped for the groceries, then let these guys do what they do to get ready for the upcoming OTA's, training camp and season and continue marketing.

-- Cut back on my dealings with the players and not let anybody else get like Clinton and think that we are boys. Ensure that my GM and Coaches are operating with discipline first.

-- Be patient and let them do what they do for the next 3-4 years with their system.

[chiefhog44]

Not to be the realist, but this is my 2 cents.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, Snyder couldn't sell this team right now or in the next three years if he tried. With today's credit situtaion, no one could come up with financing for this.

[(d)oink]

It might be time to organize something like this....

http://www.whodeyrevolution.com/whodeyr ... ealed.html

Although a win-loss record like 75-83 that the Skins have since Snyder took over isn't as compelling as 98-186 like the Bengals have, it sure isn't good.

I think the Redskins need to organize a boycott. Stop buying Redskins merchandise until Snyder agrees to sell the team.

Yeah. It's got to be that simple. Stop buying Redskins stuff and then we'll win a super bowl. Genius. (looks for that 'monkey getting kicked in the garbage' emoticon.)

[SkinsJock]

Most of the money that the owner's receive comes from the networks - so boycotting and refusing to financially support the team is not going to hurt Snyder too much - it will however make you feel terrific for not supporting your team in these financially troubling times.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I swore off buying anything from this team after purchasing my 1st Redskin jersey.... It was a Brandon Lloyd jersey, I learned my lesson...

ALthough I did purchase a Taylor authentic jersey after his passing but that was cus I loved him dearly as a player and not because of the team.

I still have hatred in my heart of "FAD".

[Sir_Monk]

LMAO! How is this Snyd's fault? Is he running recieving or tackling out there?

No, but he picks the players, and doesn't run things effectively. We have had how many coaches since he has been here? All the same result. He needs to go. He has never said I am not picking good players we need to bring in a football guy who knows how to do that. The only way Danny would stop owning the team is if he started to loose money. Redskins fans need to take action, and stop buying Redskin merchandise, stop going to games until Snyder sells the team.

Snyder doesn't care if we stop going to the games...he's a bottom line guy and the Skins are making money...I think the only thing that would get his attention is if the Skins started to depreciate...now how do we do that...

You may be right, but if Skins fans staged a mass protest and generated some publicity on the likes of ESPN it might shame him into doing something besides making Zorn the fall guy of this mess.

[KazooSkinsFan]

If by asking if it's time for "Snyder to drop back 5 and punt" you mean is it time for him to sell the team? I think it is. The guy is incapable of running this thing effectively, except as a money making venture.

How do you know this other then repeating the hype of his detractors? How do you KNOW he can't run a team?

How do you start over with this level of dysfunction? Where do you start?

I don't know, where? We're 7-7 in the uber competitive NFL, what exactly is your definition of "this level of dysfunction." I'm not asking you for a particular reason, you're just saying the same thing as his other detractors who's main evidence seems to be each other saying the same thing. It is DC, the place for that. I'm not arguing he's been a great owner, I don't know if he will win a Super Bowl, but I think he's improved and I see no reason he can't. We've had a good D for a while now, why can't we build a decent O and ride them deep in the playoffs? Why can't he do it? I mean other then a chorus of detractors says he can't?

[Wahoo McDaniels]

If by asking if it's time for "Snyder to drop back 5 and punt" you mean is it time for him to sell the team? I think it is. The guy is incapable of running this thing effectively, except as a money making venture.

How do you know this other then repeating the hype of his detractors? How do you KNOW he can't run a team?

How do you start over with this level of dysfunction? Where do you start?

I don't know, where? We're 7-7 in the uber competitive NFL, what exactly is your definition of "this level of dysfunction." I'm not asking you for a particular reason, you're just saying the same thing as his other detractors who's main evidence seems to be each other saying the same thing. It is DC, the place for that. I'm not arguing he's been a great owner, I don't know if he will win a Super Bowl, but I think he's improved and I see no reason he can't. We've had a good D for a while now, why can't we build a decent O and ride them deep in the playoffs? Why can't he do it? I mean other then a chorus of detractors says he can't?

How do I know he can't run this team effectively? Are you really asking that question? I have 10 years of evidence. Not counting Joe Gibbs' 4 years, Snyder has made the playoffs one time, has had 1 winning season and has finished in the bottom third in total offense in all years except (you guessed it) once. The crazy part about the 1 year that we did all of those things without Gibbs, it was in Snyder's first year before he could screw too much up.

I can't believe that you are questioning the level of dysfunction in this organization. You're right 7-7 is not a bad season, I expected much the same with Zorn. But, if you think that this team is on the upswing, you're nuts. They're on the way down with more questions than answers. An aged offensive line, an uncertain QB, dissension at RB, lack of a pass rush, no depth at any position except CB and maybe RB, and a generally uneasy feeling amongst the players (Carlos Rogers and Fred Smoot were benched only to come into the game and play terribly, Rock Mac was benched in the middle of the game for Albert Fincher, and Jason Taylor looked like he was going to cry in the postgame interviews).

So, since you questioned it of why I think Snyder is a bad owner, well, here it goes.

No coach will come here who has the opportunity to go somewhere else... not one. We were either getting Zorn or Fassal. That was the long and short list. That's like having no choice whatsoever.

We have no draft strategy. We picked 3 receivers who have given us nothing this year. Only Horton has been decent, the rest of our entire draft has been a bust. Oh, and we ignore the the DLine which everyone universally felt was the team's biggest weakness. I understand it takes time for receivers to grow, but We should have gotten something, anything from our draft class. I made the statement earlier that only the Bengals and the Saints have gotten less from their draft class this year. Well, I take that back. The entire left side of the O-Line for the Bengals were rookies and they were lights out against our "stud" DE's.


We have no GM. We have Vinnie Cerrato who is only known for finding Terrell Owens out of college and picking him in the mid-rounds. He hasn't been right since.

We hand out money to non-performers faster than anyone in the league. Adam Archuleta, BLloyd, David Patten, Jeremiah Trotter, Deion Sanders, Mark Carrier, Jeff George, Trung Candidate, Jason Taylor, etc. Not saying that all of these guys were busts, but they all didn't fit into the Skins scheme and left without ever getting anything out of them. Do they even look at what kind of offense/defense we run before they sign some of these guys?


Now, do I think he's going to sell..never. It's the fame and glory that a 5'6" non-athletic guy never got growing up. He'll take whatever he can get. It's the ultimate Napoleon complex...being the the big man in charge of a lot of big men while all being small than the "Kick-off Kick" at the beginning of each game who gets to run out on the field and get the tee after kick-off.

[Wahoo McDaniels]

Sorry it should have read "Kick-off kid"...the little boy or girl who gets to run onto the field...

[KazooSkinsFan]

I can't believe that you are questioning the level of dysfunction in this organization

I'm questioning your assertion. I didn't make an argument. I realize that lame logic is used all the time, you're asking me how I know X? You don't KNOW X? You disagree with X? No, I questioned your "knowledge." OK, so what's inherently clear to you is unknown to me. That I don't see a reason to believe Snyder cannot run a winning organization is not an argument that he can.

But, if you think that this team is on the upswing, you're nuts

Asking how you know Snyder can't run a winning organization says I think the team is on an upswing?

So, since you questioned it of why I think Snyder is a bad owner, well, here it goes

! to the meat.

No coach will come here who has the opportunity to go somewhere else... not one. We were either getting Zorn or Fassal. That was the long and short list. That's like having no choice whatsoever.

Which you know because...

We have no draft strategy

Which you know because...

We picked 3 receivers who have given us nothing this year

And we passed on...who you know was a screw up because...

Only Horton has been decent, the rest of our entire draft has been a bust

Wow, the "experts" say it takes years to rate a draft, and you know in the first season that we may need to develop the players. Oh, and you know this because...

Oh, and we ignore the the DLine which everyone universally felt was the team's biggest weakness

Yeah, the D was our weakness. Again,

I understand it takes time for receivers to grow, but We should have gotten something, anything from our draft class

In the first year, because...

And on and on, accusations. Yes, you have convinced me you are reading the Washington Compost and watching ESPN. You've covered their opinions. But where's the beef? Other then repeating the media, which you're doing in spades, how do you know any of this? How do you KNOW Snyder can't win. Am I "impressed" with Dan the Man? Not so far. But when I look at Jones and Steinbrenner and all their titles, I'm not seeing how Danny can't do it to. Maybe he can't, but do you have anything at all other then what I read on the front page of the Washington Post sports section and hear on Sport Center too?

[Wahoo McDaniels]

KazooSkinsFan...Let me guess, you're a lawyer. I'd say you worked on K Street with all the spin you've put on the data I provided but, I saw the profile which listed you as an NC resident, which I respect, but takes you out of the lobbyist/political pundit category.

Not back to your facts...

Steinbrenner and Snyder cannot be compared. Steinbrenner is the owner of a team in a sport where there is no salary cap which allows you to make unlimited bad moves in the event that you make a few good moves. For every ARod he's gotten his hands on, he's got a Carl Pavano, a Hideki Irabu and a Jason Giambi. This type of bad free agency doesn't hurt you as much in baseball because you just go out and sign 3 more pitchers including 2 aces to make up for past mistakes. In football, this is death. You can't make up for cutting Jeremiah Trotter without taking a cap hit...which hurts in trying to sign a replacement.

Now to the Jerry Jones comparison. He WAS successful...notice I said was. His past championships came as a result of one faithful mistake by the Minnesota Vikings...betting the farm on Herschel Walker. The result was a treasure trove of draft picks which his scouting department parlayed into the cornerstones of the franchise for the next 10 years. In comparison, when we had a similar situation fall into our laps in 99 (the Ricky Williams trade), we completely squandered the opportunity (minus Samuels, Jansen and Champ Bailey).

Back to Jones...when was his last playoff win? It was a while ago. He stays competitive by taking chances on players nobody else wants due to attitude problems...TO, Tank, PacMan...and by having the good fortune of having Parcells around him for a few years which yielded great drafts and the development of a QB. Snyder and his regime have not been able to do either of these things (draft well or develop players).


To your other points...


The D is not our weakness....true, but with pressure we create turnovers (we currently don't) and with pressure we're able to get off the field at the end of the game which has cost us in the last two games.

I know no coach will come here because of the lack of interest in the job. Name one credible coach who came out as a possible replacement during the last hiring cycle...Marucci flatly denied wanting anything to do with the job. Schwartz backed out, Sparano wanted no part (even though he was offered), it was going to be Fassal or Zorn (once the backlash hit that Fassal was in the running).

Our drafting has been terrible. Most teams took Malcolm Kelly off their boards. That's why a sure fire 1st Rounder drops to the 3rd. There were questions about his knee, which we learned this year were true. Does this mean he's going to be a bust...nope. I never said that, but when you have a playoff team returning everyone...you expect a competitive season, especially with the schedule.

So how do I "know" he can't win. I don't. But I can ascertain with pretty good probability that he doesn't understand what he's doing.

We change course every few years. And it's not just that we change coaches, we make a wholesale shift in strategy which requires completely different personnel.

We went from Pro-Style under Norv to Ball Control under Marty to Fun and Gun under Spurrier to 80's pro style under Gibbs to a combo ball control/vertical passing game under Gibbs/Saunders to West Coast under Zorn. In between we got rid of Stephen Davis (who promptly went to a Super Bowl), then we got rid of Brad Johnson (who went to a Super Bowl) then we brought in the whole 1996 Florida Gators team and Trung Candidate who all were out of the league the next year, to the current cast of players. As I said, it's not that we change, we make hard rudder corrections and we're consistently stuck with the wrong personnel to do what the new coach wants us to do...which requires us to spend haphazardly to get the new players (thus the reason you spend 3 high draft picks on receivers...none of whom we agree on you can count on in the first year or so).

This, my friend, is the very definition of dysfunction and a guy who has no idea how to win.

So there's my opinion...none of which I read in the Post.

[markshark84]

Yeah, I guess that Kazoo doesn't believe that past performance means anything. If that's the case, then Cerrato should be given as many chances as he wants!!! Besides, his stellar draft classes from 1995-1999 in San Fran and his sweet drafts for the skins mean nothing at all.

Kazoo may give the benefit of the doubt to Cerrato on his "wait and see" attitude towards the drafts, but I'm not. Cerrato has earned that right.

And in regards to Snyder. The crazy though would be maybe ESPN, Washington Post, etc are right (besides, you agree with their notion that draft classes should be graded three years post draft --- I guess you don't disagree too much with them). Snyder, in his past years as owner, has shown nothing to make me or anyone I know believe he can win. He has done nothing for this franchise except raise prices and expand the stadium. But hey you want facts. If the past 9 years are not fact enough for you, then I don't know what is.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Yeah, I guess that Kazoo doesn't believe that past performance means anything

Wow, my only choices are that Snyder will never win or that past performance doesn't mean anything? Why exactly are those my only two choices? If you read my post I didn't say anything positive about Snyder, I questioned the Sports Center repetition without any facts behind them. And that means I'm ignoring performance? Have you even read my posts?

If that's the case, then Cerrato should be given as many chances as he wants!!! Besides, his stellar draft classes from 1995-1999 in San Fran and his sweet drafts for the skins mean nothing at all.

Kazoo may give the benefit of the doubt to Cerrato on his "wait and see" attitude towards the drafts, but I'm not. Cerrato has earned that right.

I didn't even mention Cerrato.

And in regards to Snyder. The crazy though would be maybe ESPN, Washington Post, etc are right (besides, you agree with their notion that draft classes should be graded three years post draft --- I guess you don't disagree too much with them).

Agreeing with them on ONE thing means I don't disagree with them very much?

Snyder, in his past years as owner, has shown nothing to make me or anyone I know believe he can win. He has done nothing for this franchise except raise prices and expand the stadium. But hey you want facts. If the past 9 years are not fact enough for you, then I don't know what is.

If you READ my posts, I didn't argue for Snyder being a winning owner, I challenged the assertion he CAN NOT win. If Wahoo had argued Snyder hadn't shown he can win a Super Bowl like you did, he'd have gotten agreement from me, but he didn't, he said he CAN NOT Win and as evidence repeated what everyone knows, which supports what you said and I agree with, not what Wahoo did.

[KazooSkinsFan]

KazooSkinsFan...Let me guess, you're a lawyer

Ouch! This isn't smack you know. Actually it's worse, I'm a Hokie. Also a Terp and Wolverine, but I'm guessing you don't care about those. It was grad school so I'm not fanatical about the Wahoo rivalry, but given your user name you probably are.

I'd say you worked on K Street with all the spin you've put on the data I provided but, I saw the profile which listed you as an NC resident, which I respect, but takes you out of the lobbyist/political pundit category.

Thanks! Though I'm not sure how I put spin on when I was challenging your assertion and not making one. I keep agreeing Snyder's not been an excellent owner. Basically I've said he's improved since he joined the team, but not nearly enough. I didn't really argue that Jones and Steinbrenner winning titles means he WOULD win a title so much as it give me hope he COULD. I generally agree with your points on them, but having lived in the NY years you're engaged in a lot of revisionism since ex-post they DID win. I have to tell you in NY the discussion on him ex-ante to the titles was a whole lot like Snyder.

Not back to your facts...

"Not" back? I know you meant "now," but was that a Freudian admission.

The D is not our weakness....true, but with pressure we create turnovers (we currently don't) and with pressure we're able to get off the field at the end of the game which has cost us in the last two games.

Not our "biggest" weakness, despite them we hold other teams to very beatable points, so how can they be our biggest? We can't score more then 10 points a game, that means the O is totally our biggest weakness.

I know no coach will come here because of the lack of interest in the job. Name one credible coach who came out as a possible replacement during the last hiring cycle...Marucci flatly denied wanting anything to do with the job. Schwartz backed out, Sparano wanted no part (even though he was offered), it was going to be Fassal or Zorn (once the backlash hit that Fassal was in the running).

I challenged your ASSERTION that no one else would take it, none of this refutes that, it just repeats the media reports.

Our drafting has been terrible. Most teams took Malcolm Kelly off their boards. That's why a sure fire 1st Rounder drops to the 3rd. There were questions about his knee, which we learned this year were true. Does this mean he's going to be a bust...nope. I never said that, but when you have a playoff team returning everyone...you expect a competitive season, especially with the schedule.

The assertion you made I challenged was we had no draft "strategy." I'm not seeing the counter to that challenge.

So how do I "know" he can't win. I don't. But I can ascertain with pretty good probability that he doesn't understand what he's doing.

Wow, I take back the challenge now, you think there's a probability a self made billionaire can't win because he "doesn't understand what he's doing." Because it's what you see on TV and read in the paper. That is compelling.

We change course every few years. And it's not just that we change coaches, we make a wholesale shift in strategy which requires completely different personnel.

Agreed. Thank God we changed early on. The Over The Hill Gang II was no solution, Control Freak Marty was no solution, The College Comedy Hour was no solution. Then Gibbs came and did whatever he wanted. Despite the hype on the spread, there seems to be some consistency with Gibbs. Strong D, power running. Gibbs wasn't lighting up the scoreboard either. So I agree with that this has happened, but it's no proof he can't win. Not admitting his mistakes would have been worse then making changes.

We went from Pro-Style under Norv to Ball Control under Marty to Fun. This, my friend, is the very definition of dysfunction and a guy who has no idea how to win.

It's the "definition" of dysfunction? No doubt he came in with no idea. Teams are owned for decades and not knowing how to win in the NFL is pretty normal for a new owner, there's not a training program or a career path for that. They are guys who made money in other industries. He's changed, improved a little. That this is the "definition" of dysfunction's Wahoo Hooey.

So there's my opinion...none of which I read in the Post.

This is ALL Washington Compost, the opinions, the evidence. How do you say "none" of it is what you read in the Post when you're still saying EVERYTHING they say?

[markshark84]

Yeah, I guess that Kazoo doesn't believe that past performance means anything

Wow, my only choices are that Snyder will never win or that past performance doesn't mean anything? Why exactly are those my only two choices? If you read my post I didn't say anything positive about Snyder, I questioned the Sports Center repetition without any facts behind them. And that means I'm ignoring performance? Have you even read my posts?

If that's the case, then Cerrato should be given as many chances as he wants!!! Besides, his stellar draft classes from 1995-1999 in San Fran and his sweet drafts for the skins mean nothing at all.

Kazoo may give the benefit of the doubt to Cerrato on his "wait and see" attitude towards the drafts, but I'm not. Cerrato has earned that right.

I didn't even mention Cerrato.

And in regards to Snyder. The crazy though would be maybe ESPN, Washington Post, etc are right (besides, you agree with their notion that draft classes should be graded three years post draft --- I guess you don't disagree too much with them).

Agreeing with them on ONE thing means I don't disagree with them very much?

Snyder, in his past years as owner, has shown nothing to make me or anyone I know believe he can win. He has done nothing for this franchise except raise prices and expand the stadium. But hey you want facts. If the past 9 years are not fact enough for you, then I don't know what is.

If you READ my posts, I didn't argue for Snyder being a winning owner, I challenged the assertion he CAN NOT win. If Wahoo had argued Snyder hadn't shown he can win a Super Bowl like you did, he'd have gotten agreement from me, but he didn't, he said he CAN NOT Win and as evidence repeated what everyone knows, which supports what you said and I agree with, not what Wahoo did.

I generally only read posts that I myself have posted on. I am not familiar with any one particular poster or pay particularly close attention to who posted what. So, no I am not familar with your posts.

But in response, I guess that you do have to pick one or the other (more or less): in other words, will Snyder win or won't he? If you are to pick the latter, the "facts" that you are so desperately seeking are in his past performance. Therefore, do you believe that Snyder will win OR do you side with his past performance and make the conclusion that he won't.

In terms of Cerrato, in my opinion, if you mention the draft or the ability this team has to draft players --- this directly relates to Cerrato. Therefore, if you are going to argue that our draft has the potential or may or may not be a bust, then the rational expectation is that you are supporting the picks made by Cerrato --- and inferring that you support his picks AND if you support his picks, you support him (because making draft picks is all he does). Just because his name is not mentioned does not mean the elephant is not in the room.

In terms of ESPN, I just find if funny that you would, in one post, infer that they are not correct or that they don't have the requisite facts to make their determination, then in your next post, use them (and I say this because in your response post, you agreed) as a source of reference. Cuts both ways. You can agree or disagree all you want, but I just find it a bit suspect that you can pick and choose.

In terms of Snyder, then are you saying that Snyder will win in the future, regardless of his past failures? You are sort of standing on the side of fence teetering back and forth saying "well he hasn't won and I agree with that, but he may, possibly, or not possibly, in the future, or not in the future, begin to win as an owner". Because if that is the arguement you are making then you are right. Anyone could POSSIBLY win as an owner regardless of their past failures --- I could, you could, a trained monkey COULD, POSSIBLY win as an owner in the future. You are not making any sort of definitive statement. What are you trying to say? What causes you to believe that Snyder could, possibly win in the future. Do you or don't you believe that he will win. That is, if you were to make the prediction right now, do you think he will win a super bowl in the next 8 years? I don't want to hear about potential or probabilties or the rest of the jargin. I deal with that at work in the day to day. What is your position? WHY, do you believe, based on the current structure of this franchise, Snyder CAN WIN as an owner? What "facts" can you present to support your assertion?