Bailout bill fails; Dow plunges

[Redskin in Canada]

Unpleasant but essential ???

IT MUST be one of the most unpleasant laws that Congress has found itself writing so close to an election. Devoting $700 billion of taxpayers’ money to rescuing the country’s least popular industry is not a vote winner. That Democratic and Republican congressional leaders held their noses this weekend and came up with the Emergency Economic Stabilisation Act is encouraging evidence that they appreciate the gravity of the financial crisis. “This is something that all of us will swallow hard and go forward with,” John McCain said. Barack Obama added that “What we can't do is do nothing.”

http://www.economist.com/world/unitedst ... s_box_main

Bailout bill fails; Dow plunges

The House of Representatives today rejected a $700 billion plan to bail out the U.S. financial system, putting a roadblock in front of the largest government intervention in the markets since the Great Depression. The next steps were not clear, but supporters were scrambling to salvage the package. The Dow was down more than 600 points after the voting ended. developing story

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/news/ec ... /index.htm

We are in deep trouble either way. Serious crap either way. Hold on to your hats and savings (under the mattress) guys. This is a disaster for most of the world as well.

I wish this was a nightmare, a terrible nightmare. It isn't

[Cappster]

When the critical vote was tallied, too few members of the House were willing to support the unpopular measure with elections just five weeks away. Ample no votes came from both the Democratic and Republican sides of the aisle.
Bush and a host of leading congressional figures had implored the lawmakers to pass the legislation despite howls of protest from their constituents back home.
The overriding question for congressional leaders was what to do next. Congress has been trying to adjourn so that its members can go out and campaign. And with only five weeks left until Election Day, there was no clear indication of whether the leadership would keep them in Washington. Leaders were huddling after the vote to figure out their next steps.

http://news.aol.com/article/house-fails ... 1200651278

"Hmmmm.....how do we put a bandaide said one congress man to another?" "I don't know, but we need to try and pass something so we can do some campaigning!"

That really just makes me sick. They better keep their butts in Washington to try and figure something out. They are the ones that helped get us into this mess so they need to do something.

[Irn-Bru]

That really just makes me sick. They better keep their butts in Washington to try and figure something out. They are the ones that helped get us into this mess so they need to do something.

(1) Congress didn't create this mess, the Federal Reserve did.

(2) We NEED Congress to go home and campaign or whatever else. Them "doing something" is just about the worst thing that could happen right now.

I keep hoping for block after block. Americans are mad as hell about the bailout, and they should be. Hopefully Congress listens to them and doesn't pass it.

[Redskin in Canada]

I keep hoping for block after block. Americans are mad as hell about the bailout, and they should be. Hopefully Congress listens to them and doesn't pass it.

Do you remotely mean to say that the Rescue Package Will Delay Recovery ???

But Lawmakers quickly point fingers after bailout fails

A bailout package in some form WILL be approved. The political pressure to intervene is too high. If any one of us goes bankrupt, we are irresponsible. But if a a series of major institutions fall, is it irresponsible to bail them out? The Republican White House and the Democratic and Republican House and Senate leaderships do not seem to think so.

Interesting thing is that even a $700 BILLION bailout is a band aid (or a further infection) to sort out this ENTIRELY PREVENTABLE mess. Time Magazine had an interesting and lay explanation of the origins and growth of this crisis.

[KazooSkinsFan]

That really just makes me sick. They better keep their butts in Washington to try and figure something out. They are the ones that helped get us into this mess so they need to do something.

(1) Congress didn't create this mess, the Federal Reserve did.

Congress created Freddie and Fannie. I'm not arguing it's "not" the Federal Reserve, I'm saying it's both.

(2) We NEED Congress to go home and campaign or whatever else. Them "doing something" is just about the worst thing that could happen right now.

Agreed

I keep hoping for block after block. Americans are mad as hell about the bailout, and they should be. Hopefully Congress listens to them and doesn't pass it.

This is meaningless though unless they STOP meddling in mortage markets. It's not enough to do nothing here and maintain the past policies. I know you would agree with that policy. But if they don't change the policy of endless government meddling in mortgages and financial markets I don't really care about the "bailout" because it won't change anything in the long run either way.

[Irn-Bru]

I agree with you in terms of policy and long-term strategy, Kazoo. In the immediate future and with respect specifically to the bailout, though, not approving it is the best we can hope for right now.

[Irn-Bru]

Interesting thing is that even a $700 BILLION bailout is a band aid (or a further infection) to sort out this ENTIRELY PREVENTABLE mess. Time Magazine had an interesting and lay explanation of the origins and growth of this crisis.

I think we can trust the estimate of $700 billion. These are the same guys who said the Iraq War would cost $50 billion, after all. . .

I'm hearing conservative "real" estimates at around $2 trillion. But what the heck, the alternative is supposed to be "far" worse.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I agree with you in terms of policy and long-term strategy, Kazoo. In the immediate future and with respect specifically to the bailout, though, not approving it is the best we can hope for right now.

Oh yeah, I oppose the bail out either way. I just meant adding on to what you said that if the government won't change it won't make any difference in the long run. Agreed we still need to press to block this if possible. It's not just good money after bad, it's preventing needed reforms by propping up companies that SHOULD fail. It's nonsense we don't have sufficient financial services in this country to recover for the ones who go belly up. And again the LIBERAL media is totally fueling that fear. Fear, the main product of the Left. Oh my God, poor will starve, elderly will eat dog food, the mortage industry will collapse, no one will get healthcare, you'll have to pay market rates for gas, fear, fear, fear, GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT!!!!!

End of rant.

[Irn-Bru]

One of the funny things about this vote: it was opposed by red socialist Congressmen and hard-core right-wingers. The people in the middle voted 'yes.'

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/129112.html

[Irn-Bru]

And again the LIBERAL media is totally fueling that fear. Fear, the main product of the Left. Oh my God, poor will starve, elderly will eat dog food, the mortage industry will collapse, no one will get healthcare, you'll have to pay market rates for gas, fear, fear, fear, GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT!!!!!

End of rant.

Yeah, but in this case they seem to be just taking their cue from on top. When Bush, Paulson, Bernanke, and that other guy (I forgot who just now ) held that press conference last week, they seemed super-serial.

[Redskin in Canada]

The US government is playing with fire. Interestingly, the 1929 catastrophe also took place on a Republican clock. Roosevelt benefited politically to a great extent from it.

Is it too early to play with the "D" word only a few weeks away from an election?

D-E-P-R-E-S-S-I-O-N is a word some of the young people might have only found in the dictionary before. Scary, very scary.

[Countertrey]

That really just makes me sick. They better keep their butts in Washington to try and figure something out. They are the ones that helped get us into this mess so they need to do something.

(1) Congress didn't create this mess, the Federal Reserve did.

Point taken... but did the Federal Reserve materialize out of nothing? Was it the result of a "financial big bang"? And, what about Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac??? Where did they come from, and who was "protecting" them?

(2) We NEED Congress to go home and campaign or whatever else. Them "doing something" is just about the worst thing that could happen right now.

I keep hoping for block after block. Americans are mad as hell about the bailout, and they should be. Hopefully Congress listens to them and doesn't pass it.

True, that. There is a possible silver lining here... lots of incumbents who were once planning a cake walk through their next election are now not so sure. Look at the number of Blue Dogs who bailed as soon as it appeared that this wasn't looking good. The house may be in line for a good cleaning.

Pelosi really showed her colors... an idiot who knows nothing of leadership. From her perspective, this was the most important vote of her Speakership, and she could only cobble 60 % of her own party members... What a joke.

She is like the Jerruh Jones of politics... I even think they may have the same plastic surgeon.

[Redskin in Canada]

And again the LIBERAL media is totally fueling that fear.

Some of you always knew that George W Bush and his spokesperson and staff were crypto-communists-Marxists and radical anarchists with a secret agenda.

[Irn-Bru]

Point taken... but did the Federal Reserve materialize out of nothing? Was it the result of a "financial big bang"? And, what about Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac??? Where did they come from, and who was "protecting" them?

Oh, sure, Congress created those organizations. But they are functioning on their own now and were responsible for the current financial crisis.

Remember that I was responding directly to Cappster, who seems to think that Congress themselves caused the crisis (i.e., directly) and that some legislation or appropriation they can do right now will fix it.

Pelosi really showed her colors... an idiot who knows nothing of leadership. From her perspective, this was the most important vote of her Speakership, and she could only cobble 60 % of her own party members... What a joke.

Agreed, this will hurt her career I would imagine. Speaking from an anti-war perspective, she was all bark and no bite on that issue as well, just playing status quo once she hit office.

Although that kind of slithering can often get you far, something in me says that she's pissed off too many people to become successful down the road.

[Countertrey]

Point taken... but did the Federal Reserve materialize out of nothing? Was it the result of a "financial big bang"? And, what about Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac??? Where did they come from, and who was "protecting" them?

Oh, sure, Congress created those organizations. But they are functioning on their own now and were responsible for the current financial crisis.

Remember that I was responding directly to Cappster, who seems to think that Congress themselves caused the crisis (i.e., directly) and that some legislation or appropriation they can do right now will fix it.

Pelosi really showed her colors... an idiot who knows nothing of leadership. From her perspective, this was the most important vote of her Speakership, and she could only cobble 60 % of her own party members... What a joke.

Agreed, this will hurt her career I would imagine. Speaking from an anti-war perspective, she was all bark and no bite on that issue as well, just playing status quo once she hit office.

Although that kind of slithering can often get you far, something in me says that she's pissed off too many people to become successful down the road.

I understand... though there was an effort to reign in the twin FM monsters a couple of years ago... and many now in Congress were responsible for that failure to act. No, I have no illusion that they would have been shut down... but they would have been made far less able to wreak such damage.

[KazooSkinsFan]

And again the LIBERAL media is totally fueling that fear. Fear, the main product of the Left. Oh my God, poor will starve, elderly will eat dog food, the mortage industry will collapse, no one will get healthcare, you'll have to pay market rates for gas, fear, fear, fear, GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT!!!!!

End of rant.

Yeah, but in this case they seem to be just taking their cue from on top. When Bush, Paulson, Bernanke, and that other guy (I forgot who just now ) held that press conference last week, they seemed super-serial.

They may not be Democrats but none of them are Conservatives (fiscal)

[KazooSkinsFan]

Interestingly, the 1929 catastrophe also took place on a Republican clock

Out of curiosity, is it intereting WWI, WWII, the Korean and Vietnam wars took place on Democratic clocks?

[KazooSkinsFan]

Pelosi really showed her colors... an idiot who knows nothing of leadership. From her perspective, this was the most important vote of her Speakership, and she could only cobble 60 % of her own party members... What a joke.

Agreed, this will hurt her career I would imagine. Speaking from an anti-war perspective, she was all bark and no bite on that issue as well, just playing status quo once she hit office.

Although that kind of slithering can often get you far, something in me says that she's pissed off too many people to become successful down the road.

Fortunately for her the unbiased media could never muster up a memory of her "common sense" plan to solve gas prices when she was trying to convince the country to put Democrats back in control of the Congress. The unbiased media continued the Bush siege for that.

[KazooSkinsFan]

And again the LIBERAL media is totally fueling that fear.

Some of you always knew that George W Bush and his spokesperson and staff were crypto-communists-Marxists and radical anarchists with a secret agenda.

Opposite. Bush has no ideology at all. When issues come up he will act, but only transactionally. Regarding any actual direction for the country that leaves him useless, rudderless and convictionless. He reacts to whatever happens without any framework or direction. This transactional action without any philosophical direction leaves him going in circles very, very quickly.

[Cappster]

Point taken... but did the Federal Reserve materialize out of nothing? Was it the result of a "financial big bang"? And, what about Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac??? Where did they come from, and who was "protecting" them?

Oh, sure, Congress created those organizations. But they are functioning on their own now and were responsible for the current financial crisis.

Remember that I was responding directly to Cappster, who seems to think that Congress themselves caused the crisis (i.e., directly) and that some legislation or appropriation they can do right now will fix it.

I am not looking for them to fix the problem rather I would like them to try and lessen the blow of the fiscal irresponsibility of the two major government backed agencies. I am not placing the blame solely on Congress, but they stood by and did nothing when all of these crazy sub prime loans were getting out of hand and the prices of homes where doubling in a matter of a couple years. Greed = root of all evil and the cause of most financial heartache.

[Irn-Bru]

Interestingly, the 1929 catastrophe also took place on a Republican clock

Out of curiosity, is it intereting WWI, WWII, the Korean and Vietnam wars took place on Democratic clocks?

Yes. Up until recently Republicans were the often anti-war party.

[Cappster]

Pelosi really showed her colors... an idiot who knows nothing of leadership. From her perspective, this was the most important vote of her Speakership, and she could only cobble 60 % of her own party members... What a joke.

Agreed, this will hurt her career I would imagine. Speaking from an anti-war perspective, she was all bark and no bite on that issue as well, just playing status quo once she hit office.

Although that kind of slithering can often get you far, something in me says that she's pissed off too many people to become successful down the road.

Fortunately for her the unbiased media could never muster up a memory of her "common sense" plan to solve gas prices when she was trying to convince the country to put Democrats back in control of the Congress. The unbiased media continued the Bush siege for that.

Yeah, it is really "funny" she was pushing that issue to try and get her "peeps" back in Congress. Look at where we are now. The gas crisis has really been taken care of....

[Redskin in Canada]

Interestingly, the 1929 catastrophe also took place on a Republican clock

Out of curiosity, is it intereting WWI, WWII, the Korean and Vietnam wars took place on Democratic clocks?

Correction:

Vietnam took place on Democratic -and- Republican clocks. JFK might have decided to inherit it from the French and LBJ may have built a huge hole difficult to get out of but -TWO- Nixon/Ford administrations did not look to get out until it was too late for many other options.

I know that you are only focusing on the political affiliations of the administrations at US war times. I was not doing -only- that. I do not feel that WWI, Korea and Vietnam truly serve as good analogies to learn from the past in -THIS- case.

The dangerous analogy I wish to develop in -THIS- case goes as follows:

IF an economic meltdown on a Republican watch in 1929 led to a Democratic Presidential win and a populist make-work economic response with a heavy dose of State economic intervention in the form of a "New Deal".

AND

IF a populist -and- popular intervention in the economy actually far from solving the crisis instead worsened and deepened it, and the only true way out of the entire economic mess was WWII.

THEN

Can the current process follow a path anywhere near as dangerous???

No, I am not anywhere suggesting the lunacy that the market crash in the US in 1929 created alone WWII. The roots of that conflict go back to the Treaty of Versailles and many other economic, cultural and political factors, including the rise of Germany's own populist response to its own economic crisis.

I am saying though that the pieces of the puzzle are lining up dangerously close for the following scenario to be at least conceivable as a hypothetical combination of events:

a) Economic meltdown on a Republican clock. Done.

b) Democratic election win on the back of a John M. Keynes-inspired market State-regulation "New-New-Deal" with the slogan "if Wall Street fails, Main Street suffers". (Election is just a matter of weeks, the slogan, on the other hand, has already been used, and a bailout package Bill WILL be passed).

c) Failure of the "New-New-Deal" to correct the fundamental problems that led to this meltdown, i.e., avoid the market corrections needed to punish those truly responsible for this mess in the first place. (Self-fulfilled prophecy).

d) Deepening of the economic crisis and a perceived US financial and political weakness by US enemies abroad.

It can get complicated. I am not Hognosticating. I am only saying that the populist and popular temptation is SO HIGH that it might develop a series of events whose consequences are difficult to truly fathom at this time.

The next US leader must be one who calms our worst FEARS for an economic depression in the next few months. Interestingly, the most famous phrase on this subject was:

"Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself”:

FDR’s First Inaugural Address

Spooky.

The clock is ticking.

Alternatively, and on a good positive note, maybe several other world economies may come to save our bacon in a good-will initiative with its own slogan: "if the US fails, the world suffers".

Maybe the Japanese, Chinese, Russians and the EU can bail us out. Will they be that silly? Just asking ...

[KazooSkinsFan]

Interestingly, the 1929 catastrophe also took place on a Republican clock

Out of curiosity, is it intereting WWI, WWII, the Korean and Vietnam wars took place on Democratic clocks?

Yes. Up until recently Republicans were the often anti-war party.

I was biting my tongue not to say this, but I thought any commentary on the Republicans would undercut the question. Actually to go further, through most of the last Century the Democrats were not only the party that got us into war, but for strikingly similar reasons the Republicans are doing it now. The difference though is that when the Democrats got us into wars the Republicans were genuinely anti-war and today the Democrats are only against wars they are not running.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Spooky.

The clock is ticking.

Alternatively, and on a good positive note, maybe several other world economies may come to save our bacon in a good-will initiative with its own slogan: "if the US fails, the world suffers".

Maybe the Japanese, Chinese, Russians and the EU can bail us out. Will they be that silly? Just asking ...

I don't agree with every point, but it's not as nuts an analogy as I thought it was originally. So rather then rebut I'll point out another analogy between 1929 and now. In the 1920s Congress was ratcheting up Income taxes to astronomical rates and the so called fiscal conservative Republicans at best ignored and at worst enabled it. Today corporate taxes are being ratcheted up to astronomical rates, particularly when you include all the mandates and so called fiscal Conservatives are doing nothing to stop it. The bottom line is the government creates nothing, and therefore taxes can only destroy value. The higher the taxes whether it's the individual or the corporate (which is basically pooled individual investments) reduce the productivity of the country and drive the economy down. When it gets out of hand, as it is today, we go into recessions, or worse. In both cases the party that claims to get that abandonded us.