PROBLEM: scheme or quarterback?

[tribeofjudah]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redski ... .html#more

"Jason Campbell is Doug Williams. He's not Steve Young. He's not Matt Hasselbeck. He's a vertical quarterback. He's a big kid with a long delivery. Seven-step drops. Stretch the field. It's all based off the power run game and the play-action pass. Run deep sideline patterns. Come-back routes on the outside. That's who he is. Send [receiver Santana] Moss deep, have him turn the corner's hips and come back for the ball.

"He's not a high-tempo, three-step, touch pass guy. I don't see it. He's not in an offense that's about taking shots. This system doesn't play to his strengths. You're looking at a steep learning curve.

"Go back and look at why they traded up for Campbell in the first place. What was [Joe] Gibbs trying to do? [Former starting quarterback Mark] Brunell couldn't stretch the field and when he scouted Campbell he saw Doug Williams. That's who they compared him to. How many personnel guys think Doug Williams would have worked in a West Coast offense? He's a vertical passer.

"When I watch that team, I think something's going to have to give. Is it the scheme or the quarterback? At some point either the coach is going to have to change what he does to fit the quarterback, or they're going to need a different quarterback.

Is this more crap from JLC...?

[langleyparkjoe]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/09/one_executives_take_on_the_off.html#more

"Jason Campbell is Doug Williams. He's not Steve Young. He's not Matt Hasselbeck. He's a vertical quarterback. He's a big kid with a long delivery. Seven-step drops. Stretch the field. It's all based off the power run game and the play-action pass. Run deep sideline patterns. Come-back routes on the outside. That's who he is. Send [receiver Santana] Moss deep, have him turn the corner's hips and come back for the ball.

"He's not a high-tempo, three-step, touch pass guy. I don't see it. He's not in an offense that's about taking shots. This system doesn't play to his strengths. You're looking at a steep learning curve.

"Go back and look at why they traded up for Campbell in the first place. What was [Joe] Gibbs trying to do? [Former starting quarterback Mark] Brunell couldn't stretch the field and when he scouted Campbell he saw Doug Williams. That's who they compared him to. How many personnel guys think Doug Williams would have worked in a West Coast offense? He's a vertical passer.

"When I watch that team, I think something's going to have to give. Is it the scheme or the quarterback? At some point either the coach is going to have to change what he does to fit the quarterback, or they're going to need a different quarterback.

Is this more crap from JLC...?

Sounds good since JC is supposed to be the next DW right?

[SKINFAN]

uh, here we go.

I base my opinion from last year, JC couldn't do what TC did. Same scheme.

I'm hoping that it doesn't happen this year and that JC finally lets go, he seems like he's too hesitant. Take the safety off them big guns big guy!

[JCaptMorgan12]

i know everyone says the crap JLC writes is just that, crap, and i really can't comment since i do not read much of it... i think this is a valid point he is making, def something that cannot be dismissed... however, i am not saying that JC is not going to succeed in this system either... i agree with most others here, that he needs to improve, and we (fans, team, coaches) need to give him the time to improve, and hopefully he will... to the question of scheme or QB though, i feel that Zorn would change the QB before the scheme, considering the QB he drafted was Colt, and not JC... i just hope snyder gives the scheme time to work, and doesn't go firing people after a year...

[markshark84]

Last night, JC held the ball too long. His protection was spotty at times, but for the most part he had time. There were a number of plays were I yelled "come on Ramsey" (and to Ramsey's credit, he had waaayyy less protection in the pocket).

I am not too sure that JC is equipt to handle this offense. I am not quit sure that Collins is either, but I haven't seen him enough to make that determination (except preseason which is meaningless). Although, only one game, I can say that he appeared lost; making short throws on third and long situations and not making good decisions out there. Can he come back from last nights performance?? -- I hope so, but his performance last night couldn't have been much worse. To be honest, I am surprised CP was able to average over 3 yards a carry last night.

As far as time to improve, I really am losing patience. I know that he has had to learn a number of different systems over the years, but learning those systems is in the job description of a QB. He is a professional athelet and the leader out there --- and needs to perform like it. If I were him, I would be putting in fourteen hour days learning the plays backwards and forwards. I myself flinch at saying this, but I would give him half a season; however, if he continues to perform like he did last night over the next 4 games or so, they will need to cut off the bleeding and make a change. Zorn needs to win and win now because if he doesn't, the fans and media will be looking for his head. I understand that Gibbs went 0-5 in his first 5, but we aren't talking about Gibbs --- and HOF coaches don't come around ever other year...besides Gibbs was almost fired as well.

It is unfortunte that JC has not turned the corner yet, but if he doesn't do it soon, his days should be numbered. JC has all the ingredients to be a great QB: height, arm strength, big hands, agility, and a half decent O line. The fact is that we haven't put up points for as long as he has been here. Our offensie looked the same as it did under Gibbs. My reaction last night was that perhaps it wasn't the offense and is the personnel. I will hold to that until I am proven differently. JC has a ways to go and I think it only fair to the fans and team that they light a fire under his behind to get moving; otherwise, I would make a change. He has been in the league a number of years now and this is his 3rd year playing.

It doesn't help his cause that Collins came in and took us to the playoffs last year. JC is 7-13 as a starter. That is not a great record for our franchise QB.

[roybus14]

I think that there is some merit to what he is saying. JLC can be full of it most of the time but what he is saying now is interesting.

My question is why does Zorn have a tall and lanky QB squating so low behind center? I am anxious to know why this offense is not tweaked to suit JC's attributes as opposed to trying to mold him into something that he is appearing to not be?

Here is what I am afraid is going to happen to yet another young QB. Like Ramsey was ruined by Spurrier physically, JC may be ruined mentally by the revolving door of coaches and systems coming through Redskins Park.

[VetSkinsFan]

I think that there is some merit to what he is saying. JLC can be full of it most of the time but what he is saying now is interesting.

My question is why does Zorn have a tall and lanky QB squating so low behind center? I am anxious to know why this offense is not tweaked to suit JC's attributes as opposed to trying to mold him into something that he is appearing to not be?

Here is what I am afraid is going to happen to yet another young QB. Like Ramsey was ruined by Spurrier physically, JC may be ruined mentally by the revolving door of coaches and systems coming through Redskins Park.

IF JC is going to succeed, I feel it will be under Zorn and it will be under the WCO. It's the only offense that he's had any success in. This is his time, this is his place to prove himself.

[Countertrey]

I think that there is some merit to what he is saying. JLC can be full of it most of the time but what he is saying now is interesting.

My question is why does Zorn have a tall and lanky QB squating so low behind center? I am anxious to know why this offense is not tweaked to suit JC's attributes as opposed to trying to mold him into something that he is appearing to not be?

Here is what I am afraid is going to happen to yet another young QB. Like Ramsey was ruined by Spurrier physically, JC may be ruined mentally by the revolving door of coaches and systems coming through Redskins Park.

IF JC is going to succeed, I feel it will be under Zorn and it will be under the WCO. It's the only offense that he's had any success in. This is his time, this is his place to prove himself.

Logic. Cold, hard reason.


Does that really have a place?

[RayNAustin]

Listen/watch Zorn's presser. He knows what the problem is. Campbell locks in on a receiver. He holds the ball too long. Doesn't make those critical plays.

Zorn was asked..."is it the new offense or is it something you've seen from Campbell in the past" Zorn said, both.

Now last year I was harping on what? Campbell holds the ball too long....locks in on one receiver.....doesn't make the critical plays that a QB must make.

I said this a hundred times if I said it once. This is not the "system". This is Jason Campbell not getting it done. And he had 2 years and 20 games to familiarize himself with Saunders offense, yet he had the same exact issues that Zorn is speaking of this year.

It is not the system!!!

[El Mexican]

Listen/watch Zorn's presser. He knows what the problem is. Campbell locks in on a receiver. He holds the ball too long. Doesn't make those critical plays.

Zorn was asked..."is it the new offense or is it something you've seen from Campbell in the past" Zorn said, both.

Now last year I was harping on what? Campbell holds the ball too long....locks in on one receiver.....doesn't make the critical plays that a QB must make.

I said this a hundred times if I said it once. This is not the "system". This is Jason Campbell not getting it done. And he had 2 years and 20 games to familiarize himself with Saunders offense, yet he had the same exact issues that Zorn is speaking of this year.

It is not the system!!!

It´s the wrong players in the wrong scheme.

Let´s take a very simplistic look at the offense Zorn had some kind of success in the past: the 2005 Seahawks team that got to the SB. They managed a 13-3 record.

At QB and RB they had two players that hardly resemble the same players the Redskins have: Campbell and Portis versus Hasselback and Alexander. At receiver we are actually better I believe, so I won´t get into that. The other really important factor is the O line. The Seahawks that year had Steve Hutchinson and Walter Jones, two excepcional players that had great seasons in 2005. Our line is not that good, IMO. Jurevicious (?) was the TE. Arguably we have better TEs than Seattle had that year.

So, what I´m saying is that the Skins look totally different than the team Zorn has had most success, personel wise.

How can you expect any king of success given these factors?

[Sgraham]

Neither, its the fans and the media. You people put too much into one game.

[CanesSkins26]

At QB and RB they had two players that hardly resemble the same players the Redskins have: Campbell and Portis versus Hasselback and Alexander.

CP is a MUCH better back than Alexander ever was. Alexander was 100% a product of that offensive line.

[hailskins666]

GM anyone? if our front office could even half way tell their ass from a hole in the ground, zorn wouldn't be coach, and they would have hired a coach to fit the players. gibbs spent four years building a round peg, and snyderatto in their infinte wisdom decided to try to shove it in a square hole by hiring zorn. (zorn may be a great coach at some point, he seems like a smart guy, but he was NOT the best fit for the redskins)

i just ordered one of these to ship to redskins park. i'll send a card too, the card reads "2 + 2 ain't 5 either, jackasses"


maybe it will help....

[VetSkinsFan]

Listen/watch Zorn's presser. He knows what the problem is. Campbell locks in on a receiver. He holds the ball too long. Doesn't make those critical plays.

Zorn was asked..."is it the new offense or is it something you've seen from Campbell in the past" Zorn said, both.

Now last year I was harping on what? Campbell holds the ball too long....locks in on one receiver.....doesn't make the critical plays that a QB must make.

I said this a hundred times if I said it once. This is not the "system". This is Jason Campbell not getting it done. And he had 2 years and 20 games to familiarize himself with Saunders offense, yet he had the same exact issues that Zorn is speaking of this year.

It is not the system!!!

It´s the wrong players in the wrong scheme.

Let´s take a very simplistic look at the offense Zorn had some kind of success in the past: the 2005 Seahawks team that got to the SB. They managed a 13-3 record.

At QB and RB they had two players that hardly resemble the same players the Redskins have: Campbell and Portis versus Hasselback and Alexander. At receiver we are actually better I believe, so I won´t get into that. The other really important factor is the O line. The Seahawks that year had Steve Hutchinson and Walter Jones, two excepcional players that had great seasons in 2005. Our line is not that good, IMO. Jurevicious (?) was the TE. Arguably we have better TEs than Seattle had that year.

So, what I´m saying is that the Skins look totally different than the team Zorn has had most success, personel wise.

How can you expect any king of success given these factors?

Eh, CP was in a WCO in Denver and had his best years, so I don't that he's not as good as Alexander. Is he even employed anywhere this year?

The two focal points that we have glaring weaknesses AT PRESENT is the o-line and the QB in comparison to the Seattle team mentioned above.
- Hasselbeck had years to learn his ONE offense. We all know what JC's been thru.
- Seattle had arguably one of the best offensive lines at the time. It's the same argument with the Hogs and Riggins. Would Riggins have been nearly as good behind Barrry Sanders o-line? Alexander was in the right place at the right time.

[RayNAustin]

God....

The o-line aren't the hogs. Get over it. They've played well enough to allow Portis (much better RB than Alexander) to gain 1000+ yards.....and Betts too. We have a pro bowl TE, and a legit deep threat with Moss....very serviceable possession receiver in ARE...special teams that give us an edge...and a defense that plays pretty darn good most of the time.....and a team that shows it can make it to the playoffs, even after digging themselves in a hole.

Our "personnel" issues primarily involve Jason Campbell. If Campbell executes (similarly to how Collins executed last year), we'll see a big increase in offensive production, and start winning those close games we've been losing. It's as simple as that. Poor execution at the QB position is what's holding this thing down. 2 + 2 still equals 4 PEOPLE!

Everyone is caught up in the "ifs". If we had that receiver....if we had this o-line....if we ran this system....if Jason only had time to throw.....if Jason only had a chance to learn the system......if if if if.

How bout these ifs......if Jason would stop holding the ball too long....if Jason would stop locking onto a receiver.......if Jason would capitalize on the deep ball opportunities he seems to miss continuously..... if Jason would step up and be a "play maker" this board wouldn't need so many "excuse makers", and this team would be a solid contender.

There are always going to be areas that could use improvement. But you don't need 52 pro bowlers to make 1 QB successful. That's on the QB.

This is not the situation Ramsey was in. Ramsey was getting killed on EVERY STINKING PASS PLAY. It's a wonder the guy even survived two games in a row. The NFL was ready to put together a "Save Patrick Ramsey Foundation" after seeing a few Spurrier games.

Campbell hasn't had to deal with half of what Ramsey dealt with, and Ramsey was way more productive.

Enough of the excuses. We're never going to have the 85 Bears defense..the Hogs on the o-line giving Jason 7 seconds to throw to Jerry Rice, Bob Hayes, TO, and Randy Moss all at the same time. If we did, Sonny Freaking Jurgenson could come out of retirement at 60 years old and play QB for us.

[SKINS#1]

I do not believe JC will ever rise above mediocrity in this league. He just looks lost and confused. He drops back in slow motion, he reads defenses slowly and he hesitates on almost every play. He will never, ever, be a good NFL quarterback under Zorn until he can master the WC system and play completely on instinct and feel. I think the Redskins may win 4-5 games this year but I will continue watching and pulling for them as I have done for the last 40+ years.

[RayNAustin]

I do not believe JC will ever rise above mediocrity in this league. He just looks lost and confused. He drops back in slow motion, he reads defenses slowly and he hesitates on almost every play. He will never, ever, be a good NFL quarterback under Zorn until he can master the WC system and play completely on instinct and feel. I think the Redskins may win 4-5 games this year but I will continue watching and pulling for them as I have done for the last 40+ years.

You know, you're hitting on something here that I've been overlooking. That's it. He's too mechanical, and doesn't play instinctively. That would explain this look of discomfort and the lack of feel. That explains the inconsistency, and his trouble with establishing rhythm. It's like someone who doesn't dance to the music...doesn't feel it...but just goes through the motions without the E-motion. He's learning all the steps, but isn't smooth, and flowing.

Like the Golfer who drives the ball straight and long at the driving range, but couldn't hit a fairway on the course if his life depended on it. Too tight, too mechanical...and focuses on not making a mistake, instead of making a play. One of the biggest challenges in golf is to "not see" the trouble around you. To take a smooth but powerful swing regardless if there is water down the right side and trees down the left. Take aim, and let her rip. Indecision and tentativeness will kill your golf game....focusing on avoiding the hazards will almost guarantee a poor outcome. You have to be fearless, and know the ball is going straight. Any doubt you let creep in will derail you.

That's part of it....maybe a big part of it.

[VetSkinsFan]

I do not believe JC will ever rise above mediocrity in this league. He just looks lost and confused. He drops back in slow motion, he reads defenses slowly and he hesitates on almost every play. He will never, ever, be a good NFL quarterback under Zorn until he can master the WC system and play completely on instinct and feel. I think the Redskins may win 4-5 games this year but I will continue watching and pulling for them as I have done for the last 40+ years.

You know, you're hitting on something here that I've been overlooking. That's it. He's too mechanical, and doesn't play instinctively. That would explain this look of discomfort and the lack of feel. That explains the inconsistency, and his trouble with establishing rhythm. It's like someone who doesn't dance to the music...doesn't feel it...but just goes through the motions without the E-motion. He's learning all the steps, but isn't smooth, and flowing.

Like the Golfer who drives the ball straight and long at the driving range, but couldn't hit a fairway on the course if his life depended on it. Too tight, too mechanical...and focuses on not making a mistake, instead of making a play. One of the biggest challenges in golf is to "not see" the trouble around you. To take a smooth but powerful swing regardless if there is water down the right side and trees down the left. Take aim, and let her rip. Indecision and tentativeness will kill your golf game....focusing on avoiding the hazards will almost guarantee a poor outcome. You have to be fearless, and know the ball is going straight. Any doubt you let creep in will derail you.

That's part of it....maybe a big part of it.

This is the same problem every athleticly gifted athlete has. In college, someone like ST or LL or JC can excel because in college, not everyone on the team is "the best." In the NFL, everyone is "the best." Can he produce among equals? can he adapt to the speed of the next level. Some can. Some can't. Can JC is the question we're all asking...

[chiefhog44]

I do not believe JC will ever rise above mediocrity in this league. He just looks lost and confused. He drops back in slow motion, he reads defenses slowly and he hesitates on almost every play. He will never, ever, be a good NFL quarterback under Zorn until he can master the WC system and play completely on instinct and feel. I think the Redskins may win 4-5 games this year but I will continue watching and pulling for them as I have done for the last 40+ years.

You know, you're hitting on something here that I've been overlooking. That's it. He's too mechanical, and doesn't play instinctively. That would explain this look of discomfort and the lack of feel. That explains the inconsistency, and his trouble with establishing rhythm. It's like someone who doesn't dance to the music...doesn't feel it...but just goes through the motions without the E-motion. He's learning all the steps, but isn't smooth, and flowing.

Like the Golfer who drives the ball straight and long at the driving range, but couldn't hit a fairway on the course if his life depended on it. Too tight, too mechanical...and focuses on not making a mistake, instead of making a play. One of the biggest challenges in golf is to "not see" the trouble around you. To take a smooth but powerful swing regardless if there is water down the right side and trees down the left. Take aim, and let her rip. Indecision and tentativeness will kill your golf game....focusing on avoiding the hazards will almost guarantee a poor outcome. You have to be fearless, and know the ball is going straight. Any doubt you let creep in will derail you.

That's part of it....maybe a big part of it.

Don't you think him being too mechanical is due in part to all the systems he's had to learn? I mean for four year, all he's heard is do not throw the ball unless it is wide open. He wasn't ALLOWED to take risks by Gibbs. Gibbs made him a mechanical passer.

The 100 million dollar question is if that will ever change. I think it's 50/50. But the greater he understands the offense, the "looser" he'll be in my opinion.

[RayNAustin]

I do not believe JC will ever rise above mediocrity in this league. He just looks lost and confused. He drops back in slow motion, he reads defenses slowly and he hesitates on almost every play. He will never, ever, be a good NFL quarterback under Zorn until he can master the WC system and play completely on instinct and feel. I think the Redskins may win 4-5 games this year but I will continue watching and pulling for them as I have done for the last 40+ years.

You know, you're hitting on something here that I've been overlooking. That's it. He's too mechanical, and doesn't play instinctively. That would explain this look of discomfort and the lack of feel. That explains the inconsistency, and his trouble with establishing rhythm. It's like someone who doesn't dance to the music...doesn't feel it...but just goes through the motions without the E-motion. He's learning all the steps, but isn't smooth, and flowing.

Like the Golfer who drives the ball straight and long at the driving range, but couldn't hit a fairway on the course if his life depended on it. Too tight, too mechanical...and focuses on not making a mistake, instead of making a play. One of the biggest challenges in golf is to "not see" the trouble around you. To take a smooth but powerful swing regardless if there is water down the right side and trees down the left. Take aim, and let her rip. Indecision and tentativeness will kill your golf game....focusing on avoiding the hazards will almost guarantee a poor outcome. You have to be fearless, and know the ball is going straight. Any doubt you let creep in will derail you.

That's part of it....maybe a big part of it.

Don't you think him being too mechanical is due in part to all the systems he's had to learn? I mean for four year, all he's heard is do not throw the ball unless it is wide open. He wasn't ALLOWED to take risks by Gibbs. Gibbs made him a mechanical passer.

The 100 million dollar question is if that will ever change. I think it's 50/50. But the greater he understands the offense, the "looser" he'll be in my opinion.

I thought about that....Gibbs instilling too much caution....but the college scouting report on JC identified these things.....slow release, locking onto receivers, etc. So, I think it's more in line with his natural faults that he got away with in college but isn't at the NFL level.

I suppose it's possible that Bill Lazor just didn't coach him up enough (Lazor had no pro playing experience) though the Seattle Seahawks seem to trust him as a QB coach, since he replaced Zorn for them.

Personally, I don't think Campbell is the answer. Sure, he may improve with greater familiarity with the offense....but it did'nt seem to help him with Saunders offense. Because everyone has gotten so used to this "changing systems" excuse, most forget that prior to Zorn, every game Campbell has started in 2006 and 2007 was under Saunders system. 2 years and 20 games is certainly enough time to get comfortable enough to perform.

That's why I don't believe Campbell's problems are system related...sure it doesn't help him...but not the primary cause.

And I don't think you make a "franchise" commitment to a player that at best will become "average". I think you have to cut your losses at some point, and that point is upon us.

[Skinsfan55]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... tml?sub=AR

IMO a team doesn't have any business drafting a first round quarterback unless:

1.) They have a solid offensive line
2.) They have a plan

Number one is certainly debatable but it's 100% clear the Redskins have no plan for Jason Campbell. They bring in a new offense every season and jack with his rhythm and his comfort level and his development is pushed back and pushed back. He was drafted 4 years ago. He sat for a year and a half... and for what? What was he learning that he can put into use now? Gibbs' offense? Watching Brunell run it?

Then they brought in a new OC and things seemed to go okay for him. Before his injury last season he completed 60% of his passes and threw for 2700 yards... still, they brought in yet another offense and now he may not be the proper fit for it?

If we had a plan, and a direction and let Gregg Williams be the head coach (like he was hand selected by Gibbs for!) and kept Saunders as the OC then we'd be moving in at least the same direction.

Now Zorn may turn out to be a good coach, and Campbell may grasp his offense (he's only 26 after all and has a ton of ability) but anything good that happens to the Redskins will almost purely be luck. It has to be since they lack direction.

Sometimes I just wish that we'd kept Marty. Coach Marty had a plan, he was going to get rid of the high paid guys get some low cost veterans to take their place and in three years he thought they'd have enough cap space, and enough solid drafts to really be able to make some noise in the NFC...

Well, we fired him after he went 8-8... with a bunch of stiffs! Tony Banks was the starting QB!

But Danny got impatient and went after Steve Spurrier who, we all remember was terrible.

And Schottenheimer went to San Diego and after about three seasons the Chargers went 12-4 then 9-7, then 14-2 and San Diego is one of the best franchises in professional football.

If only we had a coach who we would allow to stay long enough to carry out a plan. Any plan.

[welch]

Sure. I wish Snyder (and Cerrato?) had hired Williams and kept Saunders. I never understood why Zorn got the job, unless he interviews well. So did Norv Turner.

Unfortunately, that means nothing now.

Zorn is the coach, and I hope he knows how to fix the problems on offense, because there seem to be so many. We'll see.

[roybus14]

I have to agree. GW should have kept the job along with Sanders that way we would have the continuity and JC would have an opportunity to get comfortable with a "plan".....

This constant change, IMO, will be JC's downfall. He'll be just like Ramsey but shell-shocked mentally and not physically.

[skinsfan1963]

if campbell has a crappy season,is'nt it safe to at least think that next season,campbell and colt will have an open competition to who will be next season's starting qb???

[Chris Luva Luva]

if campbell has a crappy season,is'nt it safe to at least think that next season,campbell and colt will have an open competition to who will be next season's starting qb???

I'd think that Colt will be opened up to challenge for the #2 position. He'll be breathing down JC"s next potentially. If JC starts of slow next year, I'd expect rumblings of a QB swap and possibly have the swap happen by mid-season if not a bit earlier.