I just don't understand world politics...

Brandon777 · Post by **Brandon777** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:14 pm

redskinz4ever wrote:i don't vote but we live in america and that alone gives me and who ever else who whats to speak thier minds can.so with that i say... we tried to help which at the time i thought was the right choice and still do.but at the same time from where i stand seems to me that a lot of people from iraq don't. want our help any more.so we tried to be the big brother and with over 600 deaths right now, when is enough...ENOUGH.don't give me that i'am not american cause i don't vote crap.i support the armed forces very much and i love what they do for "MY COUNTRY"so you have freedom to vote and i have the freedom to not vote if i chose not to.i understand the way of life overseas but guess what... what gives us the right to change thier way of life or who or what someone believes in.we got saddam hussien and thats great!!!but its time to bring our troops home-don't let this become another vietnam war where we tried to make a difference and lost a lot of lives.so in closing i hope we are doing the right thing by standing our ground overseas.REDSKINZ4EVER!!!!

Pulling out our troops now is the worst thing we could do. The terrorist will see it as a victory. In fact, it will be a victory for them. Then there will be a power vacuum. Mercenaries will try to gain power and it will create a civil war. Instead of a democracy, you'll have another Taliban.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:50 pm

Even I agree with this, it's definitly too late to bring the troops out...

But this situation is going to have to get a LOT worse, before it gets better

redskinz4ever · Post by **redskinz4ever** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:49 pm

guys no matter what we do there will always be another ".TALIBAN"i understand why were not bringing our troops home, but i see a hopeless cause.REDSKINZ4EVER!!!

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:31 pm

The Taliban actually got pretty lucky, it's not very often you will have a group as organized as them. If we broke their backs it would be a while before another group with that kind of pull came to power again...

The Taliban got their big break in 1998, there was a conference of terrorist elite and they agreed to buy tons of weapons from Ukraine... the Taliban used these to get their act together and to take power :-\

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:15 am

But this situation is going to have to get a LOT worse, before it gets better

I'm not so sure about this. Yes, we are hearing terrible things about the fighting and the deaths. I wish that there weren't any deaths or any more than there would have to be. However, if before the war even started someone told you: within a year or so of the war starting we will have taken out the government, maintained relative order (understanding that some outbreaks will happen--it is not total chaos over there), and gotten a constiution well under way with the Iraqi people themselves -- would you have believed them?

I'm not saying that things are the best they could be, but I think some perspective helps me realize just how not-so-bad this has been overall.

skins fan in indiana · Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:30 pm

Wow!! Some of the comments made on this topic bogle my mind! I do agree that some Americans have lost sight of 911 and all the loss and distruction that terrorism brought to USA soil...This cold hearted, well planned, evil act by organized terrorist took the breath away from our great country, ending many precious lives and devastatingly affecting the lives of loved ones left behind. The loss of property was enormous but not near as monumental as the loss of "security" all Americans felt and had come to take for granted! To have such a blatant show of hate towards America and all we stand for and an obvious "Act of War" thrust upon us, we had no choice but to fight back!! To fight for the Freedom our Forefathers fought so hard to give us!! Go after the cowardly attackers, but who, who do we go after? All efforts were made to discover who would do such an horrific deed to Americans. Terrorist were responsible for this mass destruction and we had to go after them the best way we knew how, since ,like all cowards they hide behind others, we needed to go after those that helped fund and harbor these criminals. Saddams past History made him a prime target and rightly so! His atrocities were common knowledge for years and none before President Bush had the guts to take care of this problem. After futile attemps in Afghanastan to filter out Bin Laden we had to start looking towards those who would protect and hide him and his hate group. Our Government had knowledge of Saddams ties to terrorist groups such as Osama Bin Laden and Al Quida and started looking there for retrobution. The evidence of Weapons of Mass Destruction was overwhelming and from there events snowballed. Saddams complete and utter defiance of the United Nations attempts to go in and search for these weapons was more then enough reason to go to war. I think our only downfall was to "show our hand" and tell Saddam that if he did not cooperate and give up the weapons we would invade. Saddam had more than enough time and the know how to transfer these weapons so they would not be found. However, soldiers did find several camps with the materials to manufacture these weapons and we know for a fact this mad man used many of them on his own people!! Many other nations were behind us in this effort to rid the world of this evil man. I support our brave troops and our President wholeheartedly!! I pray for the couragous soldiers who lost their lives and their families! Terrorist might have taken our breath away on Sept. 11th but only temporarily, we have caught our breath and now breathe stronger than before and because of brave Americans willing to fight for our honor and freedom it gives us and generations to come the prospect of a stronger more unified and Secure country determined to be free!

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:01 pm

skins fan in indiana wrote: Our Government had knowledge of Saddams ties to terrorist groups such as Osama Bin Laden and Al Quida and started looking there for retrobution. The evidence of Weapons of Mass Destruction was overwhelming and from there events snowballed.

while i appreciate your enthusiasm, i can't say that i know of any information that connects bin laden with saddam. nor do i believe that the government has provided any. experts on terrorists have themselves said that those two do not work together.

also, if the evidence of weapons of mass destruction is so overwhelming, why haven't we found any yet?

Texas Hog · Post by **Texas Hog** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:48 am

Evidence of WMDs has been found, but our liberal press chooses to not report it....sorry I don't have a link, but heard numerous reports on talk radio yesterday.

Texas Hog · Post by **Texas Hog** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:15 am

As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to
say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very
poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have
not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And
just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is
noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of
things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends
and compare it to the version that your paper is producing)

-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.
-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that were stored there so education can occur.
-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from ships faster.
-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
-The country had it's first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before the war.
-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in place.
-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
-An interim constitution has been signed.
-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Text books that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have
met many many people from Iraq that want us there and in a bad way. They say
they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children
will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to
dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure
to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will
set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period
of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know
there are good things happening.

Ray Reynolds, SFC
Iowa Army National Guard
234th Signal Battalion

skins fan in indiana · Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:25 am

God Bless You Sir. We stand behind you

Texas Hog wrote:As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to
say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very
poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have
not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And
just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is
noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of
things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends
and compare it to the version that your paper is producing)

-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.
-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that were stored there so education can occur.
-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from ships faster.
-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
-The country had it's first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before the war.
-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in place.
-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
-An interim constitution has been signed.
-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Text books that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have
met many many people from Iraq that want us there and in a bad way. They say
they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children
will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to
dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure
to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will
set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period
of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know
there are good things happening.

Ray Reynolds, SFC
Iowa Army National Guard
234th Signal Battalion

skins fan in indiana · Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:49 am

To Ray Reynolds...Thank you for your post, I will pass it on to anyone and everyone who wants to seek the truth!! The liberal press has done every thing in its power to portray all events of the war in an unfavorable way! Yes, the people of Iraq do want us there and they appreciate all that we are doing for them. Their prayers and crys for help have finally been heard. Your list is evidence of the possitive effect the invasion has had on a Country in desparate need of liberation from tyranny! Thank you for your service to Our Country and your selfless act to bravely help others. For your final weeks in Iraq I pray for your safe return home and the safe return home of all Soldiers!

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:28 am

Calling the media "liberal" or even "conservative" for that matter is assinine.

The "media" is a gigantic entity spanning millions of newspapers, radio stations, television stations and magazines... do you honestly believe that these millions of companies have come together behind a common goal to hide the truth from people?

For what cause? To what end?

There may be some good coming out of this war but no one is looking past the here and now... the situation over there will get a lot worse before it gets better...

Oh, and as for everyone in Iraq wanting us over there... asky my friend Chris who's convoy gets hit with bottles and improvised explosive devices on occasion.

There is a lot of grey area here, and it angers me that people can just look at the situation and say this is "good" or this is "bad".

Scooter · Post by **Scooter** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:03 am

Texas Hog - God Bless You My Man!
I know that Pat Tillman would hate all the attention given to him. We're all in this together. Thank God we've got able bodied, patriotic people to keep us free from evil bastards. Seriously, reading your post gave me goosebumps and made me stop. Thank you for your post, your patriotism and your fact listing! - Proud American!

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:21 am

Skinsfan55 you need to look at the facts. When President Clinton was in office how many times did the media call him Mr. Clinton. I can tell you it hardly ever happend. It doesn't even happen now. Listen to a report about Bush and it's always Mr. Bush. Never President Bush as it should be. The office of president is one that should be respected and the media as a whole does not. Don't go into earning respect or any crap like that because I can think of one act that would earn disrespect forever from Clinton. I really get sick of signing on here and you calling someone else's view assinine. You need to get used to the idea that not everyone agrees with you. And not everyone needs to. You keep jumping into things and telling people "to stop" or that their views are "assinine". That is not the way to start a civil adult argument. You have just put anyone with this view on the defensive. It's hard to expect people to respond to this in any other way but anger. You have a view and you are obviously not going to listen to anything that differs from that. So this entire thread has been pointless. Yes your friend saw one thing, and this guy saw something else. Ever think that your friend is in a different area or Iraq. One with alot of Saddam loyalists still. And the people who would be greatful are hiding under their beds?? The other guy could be in an area where there is no fear of such attacks. You need to understand that you do not see everything in the media. And like it or not the media is tainted by politics. That's obvious in everything they report. I just wish you'd open your mind for once about other possiblities. Your view may not be the right one and mine may not be the right one but it never hurts to listen without name calling.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:56 am

Generalizing a entire worldwide entity as viewing something one way or another is assinine. Not ALL media is like that! Saying "media as a whole" just doesn't make sense.

For your information, I don't believe there are very many Sadaam loyalists in Iraq, but I do believe there is a heavy anti-American sentiment in Iraq and the middle east. All muslim people have been called upon by various leaders to kill Americans no matter what the situation... we are just the latest in a long line of middle eastern invaders and I can say that we are not well recieved in this part of the world. If anyone if gullible enough to think that fixing a few roads or building a few schools is gonna make people think fondly of us in this part of the world then I have some prime real estate in Florida they might be interested in.

Texas Hog · Post by **Texas Hog** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:11 pm

the only thing here that is assinine or respresents gullability is your belief that the press in not liberally bias

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:18 pm

Ok first of all you are generalizing an entire cultural group by saying "All mulim people have been called upon by various lears to kill Americans...." So how is that any different from what I've said about our media. You didn't offer one bit of proof that our media is not biast. I offered evidence.
Secondly I assume you have no visited Iraq? So how would you know first of all how many loyalists there are left. Secondly how would you know the overall attitdue in each and every city is the same? We are not rebuilding Iraq to be their buddies. We are rebuilding that country because we believe everyone in Iraq deserves freedom and the libertys every human should possess.
I for one believe that just the fact that women are allowed to become educated and have the same rights as men was reason enough to go to war. We have quite a list of reasons this was the right thing to do. And I am sorry if you don't agree with this. Do not call my views assinine because they are not yours. Your views are not the supreme answer here. I understand you are a college student and believe me the world has alot to teach you. I've changed my views on everything since I was 20. But you need to understand that disagreement does not give you the right to criticize anyone or their views. Putting in your 2 cents in fine but calling anything assinine shows that you have no valid arguement against the topic.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:04 pm

NikiH wrote:Ok first of all you are generalizing an entire cultural group by saying "All mulim people have been called upon by various lears to kill Americans...." So how is that any different from what I've said about our media.

lol, all Muslims have been called upon, by Bin Laden and other terrorist leaders. That is fact. The fact that they have been "called upon" is different than saying all Muslims will kill American's given the chance.

NikiH wrote:You didn't offer one bit of proof that our media is not biast. I offered evidence.

I am saying that the media is not biased as a whole, it's ludicrous to think so. There are plenty of news sources, and obviously some are slanted to the left or the right but it is very even. I'm sure you will have no problem finding one to pump more of your own beliefs into your head, but I am a believer in consulting all aspects of a situation based on various sources before I decide on something. The fact that you Warhawks can't acknowledge ONE negative thing about this conflict (of which there are many) is astounding! Being open-minded doesn't mean you should see things my way, but it means trying to see ALL sides of the issue.

NikiH wrote:We are not rebuilding Iraq to be their buddies. We are rebuilding that country because we believe everyone in Iraq deserves freedom and the libertys every human should possess.
I for one believe that just the fact that women are allowed to become educated and have the same rights as men was reason enough to go to war. We have quite a list of reasons this was the right thing to do. And I am sorry if you don't agree with this. Do not call my views assinine because they are not yours.

America has never had a policy of altruism before. Do you honestly believe America is just trying to spread charity around the world?!!? If this were true then why not go save Tibet? Why not go liberate Latin America? Why not take all of our resources and blow them on fixing everyone elses problems? Make NO mistake that we would not be into this venture unless someone was profiting from it.

NikiH wrote:But you need to understand that disagreement does not give you the right to criticize anyone or their views. Putting in your 2 cents in fine but calling anything assinine shows that you have no valid arguement against the topic.

I am not criticizing anyone's views, just questioning the methods at which they come to understand the problem. If you just look at the situation in Iraq in black and white, then something is wrong. This situation is neither bad or good, there is evidence that positives AND negatives are coming out of the situation. It's perfectly acceptable to have a differing view, but having that view "just because" or ignoring other views because they don't jive with your own isn't.

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:48 pm

This thread is getting ridiculous. SF55, your post is directly insulting to my wife, and that is unacceptable. Debate is one thing, but there is no need to imply she is stupid because she misspelled biased. I understand that arguments can become heated, especially over these kinds of things. There are those of us who have formed our opinion on this issue based upon whatever criteria we saw fit. You have done the same. These views aren't the same. You are not going to change anyones mind, much the same as we are not going to change your mind. I would appreciate it if you showed my wife some respect. This thread has deteriorated from a thought provoking debate to name-calling and idle banter. I hope that we can all agree to disagree in a respectful manner and let this thread die.

redskinz4ever · Post by **redskinz4ever** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:55 pm

A-MEN!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!REDSKINZ4EVER!!!!!

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:46 pm

JansenFan wrote:This thread is getting ridiculous. SF55, your post is directly insulting to my wife, and that is unacceptable. Debate is one thing, but there is no need to imply she is stupid because she misspelled biased. I understand that arguments can become heated, especially over these kinds of things. There are those of us who have formed our opinion on this issue based upon whatever criteria we saw fit. You have done the same. These views aren't the same. You are not going to change anyones mind, much the same as we are not going to change your mind. I would appreciate it if you showed my wife some respect. This thread has deteriorated from a thought provoking debate to name-calling and idle banter. I hope that we can all agree to disagree in a respectful manner and let this thread die.

You're right, if I offended anyone I apologize. The purpose behind this post was to have a debate about a topic, not to bicker about who's right or who's wrong (no one is right or wrong.) I was trying to inquire about the idea's of others and to try to see a view of a situation other than my own. Along the way I have encountered a lot of rudness myself, and I have yet to have anyone convince me that this war is a good thing. I have however come to see that SOME good comes from the war and the fact that everyone else is too stubborn to admit that there are negative aspects as well is extremely frustrating. It feels to me that, as I am trying to learn more about the subject and provoke thought in others that others are trying to force their ideas on me. Rather than reflecting on anything I've said they dismiss it imediately and try to insult me with lables like "fruity" and "liberal". It makes some of the warhawks in this thread look narrowminded and bigoted. Now, he disagrees with me, but off the top of my head the only poster in this thread who I can think of that showed me any respect at all while disagreeing was SFIR, I respect his opinion on the matter, and yet I am still in disagreement... I wish more people knew how to do that.

That said, I'm sorry for taking the frustration that I am feeling on this subject and projecting it on NikiH, who in all fairness is far from the most frustrating person who has posted here.

Scooter · Post by **Scooter** » Fri May 07, 2004 12:42 pm

My only beef with Muslims is the lack of outrage at those who carry out acts of horror claiming to be Muslims. They're not true Muslims when they act in direct opposition to the teaching of the religions. Perhaps it's dangerous to do so under present conditions. In the end, I hope the true Muslims win over the fake, evil little bastards out there committing such horrendous acts. Real Muslims should step forward and vocally, loudly condemn those pretenders.