Question about Defensive line

[VetSkinsFan]

- Erasumus James looking decent (quality depth... having him, taylor and carter on the field at once in obvious passing situatins will be awesome, 3rd & 20, etc)

I still fail to see how 3 speed ends are going to be better than 2. From my understanding, DEs that rely on speed and agility usually take an outside (at least part of their technique is in space as opposed to bullrushing/collapsing the pocket as typical DTs do) angle to the QB. I'm not seeing how a 3rd DE can be more beneficial than a DT, even in passing situations. DTs, in passing situations, should be using strength and power to collapse the pocket. The people who support 3DE sets, please elaborate. I've been known to be wrong before (once, but all the witnesses are dead ), so I'm open to being convinced.

[PulpExposure]

I wonder that, too. Although he did write "3rd and 20"....maybe they'll just line up everyone wide on 3rd and 20

[VetSkinsFan]

I wonder that, too. Although he did write "3rd and 20"....maybe they'll just line up everyone wide on 3rd and 20

I quoted this particular statement b/c it's the most recent. It's been brought up a few times and when I've posed the question, it's never really been addressed, so I made it its own post. Edumacate me!!!!

[GSPODS]

If anyone does answer this question, please add to the explanation why a QB wouldn't see that and audible to a draw play? If there are three DE's, then it's an obvious passing down, and probably 3rd and long (3rd and 20, it says), which means there are likely two LB's and a bunch of DB's 20 yards downfield.

[Bob 0119]

I believe the logic is that a speed guy is trying to slip in through the middle as opposed to forcing back the pocket.

This might not work if you don't have any good rushing ends, but with Carter and Taylor you might just spread the O-line out just enough for James to slip around the guard thanks to a double team match-up on either end.

This wouldn't work on a rushing down where the O-line surges forward, but on a passing down when the line is pulling back and trying to form a pocket, he might just slip through.

[yupchagee]

My guess is that theywould be doing lits of stunts.

[VetSkinsFan]

On a passing down, you'd just chip him with the RB/FB coming out of the backfield. It might work one time, but once it's on film, I don't seeing it having a high rate of success.

[Skeletor]

There's a number of teams, including the Redskins that did this last year. At times, Phillip Daniels moved inside and played the DT position allowing Washington or Chris Wilson to play the other end opposite Carter.

More famously, the Giants used this strategy playing end Osi, Strahan and justin tuck at the same time.

the notion is the extra speed means the QB has less time to look for receivers, you can call a draw, but it's still hard for a back to pick up 20 yards before LB and DBs close on him.

[jDub]

The Giants used the 3 DE set on 3rd downs with great effectiveness. They would lineup Strahan and Osi on the outside and insert Tuck as a DT.

Tuck was definitely a integral part of the Giants league leading 53 sack defense.

[yupchagee]

The Giants used the 3 DE set on 3rd downs with great effectiveness. They would lineup Strahan and Osi on the outside and insert Tuck as a DT.

Tuck was definitely a integral part of the Giants league leading 53 sack defense.

True but Tuck is bigger than James, who is the biggest of the 3 being mentioned.

[CanesSkins26]

The Giants used the 3 DE set on 3rd downs with great effectiveness. They would lineup Strahan and Osi on the outside and insert Tuck as a DT.

Tuck was definitely a integral part of the Giants league leading 53 sack defense.

It worked because the Giants had Justin Tuck to put in at DT. Most teams, including the Skins, don't have that type of player to use in that situation. Using Erasmus James is a lot different than using Tuck. That guys is a physical beast.

[VetSkinsFan]

There's a number of teams, including the Redskins that did this last year. At times, Phillip Daniels moved inside and played the DT position allowing Washington or Chris Wilson to play the other end opposite Carter.

More famously, the Giants used this strategy playing end Osi, Strahan and justin tuck at the same time.

the notion is the extra speed means the QB has less time to look for receivers, you can call a draw, but it's still hard for a back to pick up 20 yards before LB and DBs close on him.

While Daniels isn't big enough to play NT, he's got the bulk to play DT. The other 3 DEs in question give up anywhere from 10-30 lbs of mass. I guess it may work with limited success with James as DT(he's the largest at 266), but Carter(252) and Taylor(242) are too light to have any succcess in the middle. As previously noted, Tuck(274) is a big boy and has the mass and strength to go inside.

[BigRedskinDaddy]

At Miami, JT was often used in what was called the "Cobra" position, wherein he moved around pre-snap either from side to side or even off the LoS as sort of a rush LB or standing DE. This was conceived to keep TE and H-backs from getting chips on him as he pushed upfield.

It also allowed him to take advantage of his versatility by dropping into the flat or short middle on zone dogs. Just a guess but if we used a 3 DE set he might be off the LoS in a similar manner. AC and EJ on either side, with JT in a 2 pt stance, ready to come on a blitz or peel back in coverage.

[VetSkinsFan]

At Miami, JT was often used in what was called the "Cobra" position, wherein he moved around pre-snap either from side to side or even off the LoS as sort of a rush LB or standing DE. This was conceived to keep TE and H-backs from getting chips on him as he pushed upfield.

It also allowed him to take advantage of his versatility by dropping into the flat or short middle on zone dogs. Just a guess but if we used a 3 DE set he might be off the LoS in a similar manner. AC and EJ on either side, with JT in a 2 pt stance, ready to come on a blitz or peel back in coverage.

I'd imagine Washington would be just as good a fit. he's better in coverage and he's played rushing DE in 3rd downs.

I never kept up with JT in Miami, but I read that he said he had moved around. Thanks for the elaboration!

[Bob 0119]

On a passing down, you'd just chip him with the RB/FB coming out of the backfield. It might work one time, but once it's on film, I don't seeing it having a high rate of success.

That may be the case, but if you look at it, it costs them yet another recieving threat.

Let's say for example they double-team Taylor with a guard and a tackle. that pulls the tackle in front of James to double team Taylor. That leaves the center over for James, and a tackle for Golston, leaving only the guard for Carter.

Now if they put a Tight end on Carter, that's one less reciever due to the double team.

If they leave the HB/RB back to defend against James, that's another potential reciever tied up in pass protect.

That's four guys, tying up 7 offensive players (leaving only three recievers)

That leaves 7 defenders to cover 3 recievers.

[VetSkinsFan]

On a passing down, you'd just chip him with the RB/FB coming out of the backfield. It might work one time, but once it's on film, I don't seeing it having a high rate of success.

That may be the case, but if you look at it, it costs them yet another recieving threat.

Let's say for example they double-team Taylor with a guard and a tackle. that pulls the tackle in front of James to double team Taylor. That leaves the center over for James, and a tackle for Golston, leaving only the guard for Carter.

Now if they put a Tight end on Carter, that's one less reciever due to the double team.

If they leave the HB/RB back to defend against James, that's another potential reciever tied up in pass protect.

That's four guys, tying up 7 offensive players (leaving only three recievers)

That leaves 7 defenders to cover 3 recievers.

In long passing situations, I would think a chip would do better and then release into their respective patterns. I also doubt they'd play max protect in a 3rd and long.

[GSPODS]

In long passing situations, I would think a chip would do better and then release into their respective patterns. I also doubt they'd play max protect in a 3rd and long.

"Max protection" takes four potential receivers out of the equation.
Two tight ends, the fullback and the running back all stay "in the box" to block in a true max protection scheme, in addition to the five down linemen. That leaves two wide receivers on the outside as receiving targets. Even if the RB chips and goes into the flat, he's only a safety valve. It seems logical to think that no team would use this scheme on 3rd and long.

From the defensive side, it seems more logical to SAM blitz and to drop the linemen into zone coverage. The linebackers can both overload the interior of the line, and can stop any attempt at a draw. Leaving a single defensive lineman against the run while pass rushing three others doesn't make much sense, even in 3rd and long. Blitzing the SAM linebackers while dropping the DE's into the flat is a perfect defense for picking off passes to the safety valve(s) and taking them to the "house."

It is entirely possible I'm missing something, but I'm definitely missing it.

[Bob 0119]

In football there is never a "sure thing"

You could stack eight in the box and still not get the QB.

But if you can bring a lot of speed at that offensive line, you might just create a match-up where speed has the advantage over size.

You might intimidate them into sacrificing recievers for blockers, but even if you don't you still put the larger amount of the risk on the offense as they may have trouble corraling their faster counter-parts in a one-on-one situation.