Joe Gibbs Racing Caught Cheating

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Joe Gibbs Racing Caught Cheating

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NASCAR finds cheating after Nationwide race
sports-motorsports-20080817-NASCAR-Gibbs.Cheating

BROOKLYN, Mich. (AP) — The two Joe Gibbs Racing cars that have dominated the Nationwide Series this season likely will face stiff NASCAR sanctions after team members were caught deliberately trying to mask the horsepower in their powerful engines.

NASCAR inspectors found magnets under the gas pedals of the No. 18 and No. 20 Toyota's when the cars were sent to the chassis dyno following Saturday's race at Michigan International Speedway. Tony Stewart finished third in the No. 20 in his final Nationwide race for JGR, and Joey Logano was seventh in the No. 18.

The two cars have combined to win 14 of Toyota's 15 victories in 25 Nationwide races this season. To temper the domination, NASCAR last month ordered all Toyota teams to cut about 15 horsepower in their motors.

NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton said the magnets were a quarter-inch thick and their placement was an attempt to hide how much horsepower the Gibbs motors still have even after the rule change.

``The intention was to manipulate the numbers that we get when we get our information and data off the dyno,'' Pemberton said.

Joe Gibbs Racing president J.D. Gibbs said he and his father, owner Joe Gibbs, had no prior knowledge of their crew members intent and apologized to NASCAR and Toyota.

``That was a really poor, foolish decision on the part of our key guys,'' J.D. Gibbs said. ``A couple guys chose to make a decision there that really impacts all of us.''

Gibbs said he wasn't sure the crews tried to manipulate the dyno numbers. The JGR teams, behind esteemed engine builder Mark Cronquist, are thought to have some of the strongest motors in the industry.

``I know they were probably frustrated from the standpoint that wanting to show that, 'Hey, we have less horsepower than ever before' and they wanted to make it look like we're handicapped even more than we actually were,'' Gibbs said. ``I understand that, but that's not an excuse.

``The engine shop, that's kind of a badge of honor. You win that engine dyno, good for you. That's kind of how we felt in the past few years, and Mark Cronquist and those guys really feel like they want to win that thing.

``The way I look at it, to come back after you've been chopped, to come back and win it again, that's awesome,'' Gibbs noted. ``That's a great story. That wasn't able to be told.''

Pemberton said NASCAR will meet this week to decide how JGR will be punished.

``I anticipate that we haven't seen the end of it yet,'' Pemberton said.

But J.D. Gibbs vowed the team will address the incident in-house.

``(We'll) figure out exactly what happened and those that were responsible,'' Gibbs said. ``There's going to be punishment for that. That's just part of life. You can't do that.''

Joe Gibbs echoed his son's thoughts in a sharply worded statement.

``If this alleged incident proves true, it goes against everything we stand for as an organization,'' the former Washington Redskins coach said. ``We will take full responsibility and accept any penalties NASCAR levies against us.''

Lee White, president of Toyota Racing Development, said the company is grateful that the team stepped up and took responsibility and made it clear Toyota was not involved.

``I was surprised to see what was happening, and astonished and frankly incredulous,'' White said. ``I couldn't believe it was happening because it's clearly defined in the entry forms that you don't do this sort of thing. But I'm sure Joe and J.D. will take care of that internally and, whatever fans think, they're going to think. We're just going to keep working on our stuff.''

Pat Suhy, GM Racing group manager for NASCAR, said the actions by the Gibbs team raise more questions that stretch all the way to Toyota. The Japanese automaker is in its second season in NASCAR's top two series.

``It's not something that you like to hear about and you have to just question every chassis dyno that's ever been run on every Toyota,'' Suhy said. ``I don't know is if it's a Toyota problem, if it's a Joe Gibbs thing, how widespread is it and how long has it been going on.

``It's disappointing to hear that anybody, whether it's a manufacturer or a team or an individual on a team would go to any length to do that. It's bad for the entire garage, I think.''

Jack Roush, co-owner of Roush-Fenway Racing, which fields Fords in the Nationwide Series, called the Gibbs team's actions ``extremely detrimental'' to the sport and was confident NASCAR will address it.

``NASCAR will figure out what they should,'' Roush said. ``If they're going to make decisions based on parity, after they've given (Toyota) what they've given them with regard to parameters on their engine, based on flawed data that a team or the manufacturer, one of the other, had kited or shaved, that certainly is detrimental to my interests.''




http://www.comcast.net/articles/sports- ... .Cheating/
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Post by GSPODS »

Who cares? Joe wasn't the one cheating. Neither was JD. ASSCAR can't level the playing field without screwing one manufacturer or another. Racing is building the best car you can and going against other people who've built the best cars they can. Having everyone racing cardboard cutouts with restrictor plates and bad tires isn't racing. No wonder so many sponsors are dropping the redneck rodeo like a bad habit.

Joe Gibbs will fire the cheater(s) or everyone if he thinks he needs to. That won't fix the actual problem, which is that only idiots believe that crap is racing, and that ASSCAR has to keep up the illusion that it is competitive, which is why Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards and whomever else keeps winning will have their cars altered by ASSCAR in the off-season. To once again level the playing field. That isn't racing. And that's why manufacturers and teams look for any advantage they can get. Because just building the best car isn't good enough.

It's just a shame that it was Joe's team that got caught doing what every other team is also doing. Looking for any advantage they can get, without getting caught.
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Post by gibbsfan »

GSPODS wrote:Who cares? Joe wasn't the one cheating. Neither was JD. ASSCAR can't level the playing field without screwing one manufacturer or another. Racing is building the best car you can and going against other people who've built the best cars they can. Having everyone racing cardboard cutouts with restrictor plates and bad tires isn't racing. No wonder so many sponsors are dropping the redneck rodeo like a bad habit.

Joe Gibbs will fire the cheater(s) or everyone if he thinks he needs to. That won't fix the actual problem, which is that only idiots believe that crap is racing, and that ASSCAR has to keep up the illusion that it is competitive, which is why Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards and whomever else keeps winning will have their cars altered by ASSCAR in the off-season. To once again level the playing field. That isn't racing. And that's why manufacturers and teams look for any advantage they can get. Because just building the best car isn't good enough.

It's just a shame that it was Joe's team that got caught doing what every other team is also doing. Looking for any advantage they can get, without getting caught.


it,s sad aint it and thats the perfect name for them too, :lol: ...sometimes i feel like TO in that interview cry over his quarterback...snot fair, :lol:
racing isn,t racing your right about that...it,s ashame you have to cheat to get an edge when joe and JD are doing it the right way but this is na$car afterall.
so building the best cars isn,t the way to go is it...
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Post by Countertrey »

There is just a little irony in complaining about cheating in a sport that had it's origins in criminal activity...


BALLAD OF THUNDER ROAD
Let me tell the story, I can tell it all
About the mountain boy who ran illegal alcohol
His daddy made the whiskey, son, he drove the load
When his engine roared, they called the highway Thunder Road.

Sometimes into Ashville, sometimes Memphis town
The revenoors chased him but they couldn’t run him down
Each time they thought they had him, his engine would explode
He'd go by like they were standin’ still on Thunder Road.

(CHORUS)
And there was thunder, thunder over Thunder Road
Thunder was his engine, and white lightning was his load
There was moonshine, moonshine to quench the Devil’s thirst
The law they swore they'd get him, but the Devil got him first.

On the first of April, nineteen fifty-four
A Federal man sent word he’d better make his run no more
He said two hundred agents were coverin’ the state
Whichever road he tried to take, they’d get him sure as fate.

Son, his Daddy told him, make this run your last
The tank is filled with hundred-proof, you’re all tuned up and gassed
Now, don’t take any chances, if you can’t get through
I’d rather have you back again than all that mountain dew.

(CHORUS)

Roarin’ out of Harlan, revvin’ up his mill
He shot the gap at Cumberland, and screamed by Maynordsville
With T-men on his taillights, roadblocks up ahead
The mountain boy took roads that even Angels feared to tred.

Blazing right through Knoxville, out on Kingston Pike,
Then right outside of Bearden, they made the fatal strike.
He left the road at 90; that’s all there is to say.
The devil got the moonshine and the mountain boy that day.



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Post by Cappster »

Nascar has been going downhill ever since they introduced restrictor plate racing. I have never heard of a racing organization that would restrict the amount of horsepower the way nascar has. Go back to the early days of nascar and you will find that everyone "cheated." In the end, it doesn't really matter to me. I don't like to watch cars turning left for 3 hours.
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Post by Countertrey »

Cappster wrote:Nascar has been going downhill ever since they introduced restrictor plate racing. I have never heard of a racing organization that would restrict the amount of horsepower the way nascar has. Go back to the early days of nascar and you will find that everyone "cheated."


They really need to figure out a way to eliminate the restrictor plates... but it's not just that that's ruining it... it's prescription bodies, limitations on all sorts of specs, dictating running gear, and on and on. They are killing the sport. There was once lots of gray area in the rules, where imaginative teams could play and experiment... now, NASCAR has almost succeeded in completely eliminating all of that latitude.

It's deterioration really began with the introduction of the Charger/SuperBee with the aero nose and wing, and NASCAR's response to ban them, rather than encourage further innovation. Some 35-40 years later, what do we have? Cars with a prescription aero nose and a wing.

So, you have NASCAR tinkering with the specific specs of a single make, attempting to "make it fair" even though it is their rules that caused the imbalance in the first place.

As soon as you make such a restriction, you are off on a self-defeating cycle of limiting creativity.
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Post by BossHog »

Ouch... big PR blow to Gibbs racing.

I would suggest that everyone reads the new post in the Hog Wash forum about Board Conduct going into the regular season.

This is a perfect example of how a thread gets taken down a different tangent, and changes the context of the thread entirely. It just ultimately makes the board harder to follow when the thread title no longer matches the thread content.

This thread is about Joe Gibbs being caught cheating.

If you guys want to talk about why nacscar sucks or doesn't suck - that's cool - start a thread called 'Why Nascar sucks or doesn't suck', and then if you want to link to that thread from the Joe Gibbs racing thread, that's cool too. that way the threads stay on topic and people that are coming to the board can follow along a lot better.

That doesn't give you carte blanche to start a bunch of superfluous threads that are really continuous thoughts, check the board for existing threads, use the search function to find recent discussions, things like that. If EVERYONE makes an effort to improve the flow of conversation, then everyone benefits from the improved readability.

Thanks.
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Post by Bob 0119 »

So, could someone tell me ('cuz I don't follow Nascar...at all) how a magnet hidden under the gas pedal would mask the horsepower of an engine?

Is it because the magnet doesn't allow you to put the pedal all the way to the floor?
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Post by GSPODS »

Bob 0119 wrote:So, could someone tell me ('cuz I don't follow Nascar...at all) how a magnet hidden under the gas pedal would mask the horsepower of an engine?

Is it because the magnet doesn't allow you to put the pedal all the way to the floor?


That's it. If the pedal doesn't go all the way to the floor, the throttle doesn't open all the way, and the dyno test doesn't read the full peak horsepower of the engine. Then NASCAR can't adjust the restrictor plate to even out the horsepower between different cars, which is exactly what they do, or try to do. It's a difference of about 15 HP, which isn't much, unless everyone is driving the same car. In NASCAR, they are all driving the same car. Only the ads are different. So 15 HP is a big difference.
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Post by gibbsfan »

what gspods said...
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Post by JansenFan »

I'd get back into NASCAR if they'd scrap the competition rules and just let the best team field the best car. If you can build an engine that gets 15 more HP than the next guys, then you deserve to beat that guy. I'm tired of parity.
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Post by Cappster »

I think it is a shame that Gibbs' name has to be involved in all of this. Nascar is like the giant that wants to push others around until one day pieces start to branch out and create their own league.
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Post by Cappster »

Stewart, Logano each docked 150 points; seven JGR members suspended

By David Newton
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: August 20, 2008, 1:28 PM ET

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Seven team members of Joe Gibbs Racing have been indefinitely suspended from NASCAR after an attempt to distort engine power in a dynamometer test following Saturday's Nationwide Series race at Michigan International Speedway.
Joe Gibbs' Statement
"First, we want to apologize to NASCAR, all of our partners, all of our families at JGR, and all of our fans for the unfortunate incident that took place this past weekend in Michigan with our two Nationwide teams. A poor decision was made by some key members of our organization, and 100 percent of the blame rests with us.

"In 17 years we have never had any representative of Joe Gibbs Racing knowingly act outside of NASCAR's rules, and that is something we consider essential to how we operate on a daily basis. What we have determined is that these individuals involved used extremely poor judgment in attempting to alter the results of NASCAR's dyno test following Saturday's Nationwide Series race in Michigan. Although in no way was anything done that might have altered the race outcome, these JGR employees attempted to circumvent the NASCAR rule book and that is unacceptable.

"We take full responsibility and accept the penalties NASCAR has levied against us today. We had come to the conclusion that we would add to any NASCAR imposed penalties with the minimum being suspension for the remainder of the season for those involved, including our two Nationwide Series crew chiefs. There will also be an additional monetary fine beyond the amount announced by NASCAR earlier today, which will be the responsibility of those involved.

"We are, however, disappointed that NASCAR chose to place our drivers on probation, as they had no knowledge or involvement of this incident.

"On behalf of everyone at Joe Gibbs Racing, we apologize again for this most unfortunate situation."

Tony Stewart, who drove the No. 20 car at Michigan, and Joey Logano in the 18 were docked 150 championship points and placed on probation through the end of this year. Team owner Joe Gibbs also was penalized 150 points on both of the entries.

In addition, crew chiefs Jason Ratcliff of the No. 18 and Dave Rogers of the No. 20 have been fined $50,000 each and indefinitely suspended from NASCAR duties.

Dorian Thorsen, engine tuner Michael Johnson and crew member Toby Bigelow of the 18 also were placed on indefinite suspension.

From the No. 20 team, car chief Richard Bray and engine tuner Dan Bajek have been indefinitely suspended.

Both teams have been placed on probation through the end of the year.

The penalties are unprecedented for the Nationwide Series.

NASCAR determined after the race that a magnetic spacer was attached under the gas pedal of both cars for the intent of compromising the chassis dynamometer test.

The infraction came several weeks after NASCAR ordered that all Toyotas use a smaller spacer that would knock about 15 horsepower from their engines.

Toyota had won 14 of 21 races, all but one in a Camry fielded by JGR, before the mandate. It won the first race after the cutback with Kyle Busch at Indianapolis.

The 20 car was first in owner points, 318 ahead of the No. 2 Richard Childress Racing car before the penalty. The 18, running a part-time schedule, was 27th in points.

J.D. Gibbs had several meetings with NASCAR about the decision. He argued that the engines were legal and that the team was being penalized for working hard to generate more horsepower than the competition.

Other owners argued that the Toyota engine design allowed for more horsepower than the engines of Chevrolet, Dodge and Ford would allow.

Gibbs made it clear he had no knowledge of the attempt to alter the results of the dynamometer test and that the organization would take its own action against the guilty parties after an internal investigation was complete.


http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/na ... id=3544268

That is a pretty severe penalty. Ouch!
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Post by Cappster »

Joe Gibbs' Statement
"First, we want to apologize to NASCAR, all of our partners, all of our families at JGR, and all of our fans for the unfortunate incident that took place this past weekend in Michigan with our two Nationwide teams. A poor decision was made by some key members of our organization, and 100 percent of the blame rests with us.

"In 17 years we have never had any representative of Joe Gibbs Racing knowingly act outside of NASCAR's rules, and that is something we consider essential to how we operate on a daily basis. What we have determined is that these individuals involved used extremely poor judgment in attempting to alter the results of NASCAR's dyno test following Saturday's Nationwide Series race in Michigan. Although in no way was anything done that might have altered the race outcome, these JGR employees attempted to circumvent the NASCAR rule book and that is unacceptable.

"We take full responsibility and accept the penalties NASCAR has levied against us today. We had come to the conclusion that we would add to any NASCAR imposed penalties with the minimum being suspension for the remainder of the season for those involved, including our two Nationwide Series crew chiefs. There will also be an additional monetary fine beyond the amount announced by NASCAR earlier today, which will be the responsibility of those involved.

"We are, however, disappointed that NASCAR chose to place our drivers on probation, as they had no knowledge or involvement of this incident.

"On behalf of everyone at Joe Gibbs Racing, we apologize again for this most unfortunate situation."

-- Joe Gibbs
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Post by Deadskins »

Isn't NASCAR supposed to be stock cars? If you want may-the-fastest-car-win watch formula 1. I wish they would use real stock cars; the same thing any schmo with enough money could go down to the dealership and buy. That would be interesting.
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Post by GSPODS »

JSPB22 wrote:Isn't NASCAR supposed to be stock cars? If you want may-the-fastest-car-win watch formula 1. I wish they would use real stock cars; the same thing any schmo with enough money could go down to the dealership and buy. That would be interesting.


Stock-Appearing cars. They haven't raced actual Stock Cars since one of "The Big Three", that is to say since Dodge Chrysler Plymouth left NASCAR because their 426 Hemi was banned, even though it was a stock engine. Since no other manufacturer could compete with the 750-800 Horses the 426 Hemi with the modified 6-8 Pack Carb was putting out, NASCAR started changing the rules to level the playing field. That was back in the 1970's.

So, because all of the parts are the same, JGR's teams were looking for any competitive advantage they could find. Every NASCAR team does it. It just so happens that JGR got caught. When teams win a lot, as JGR has, NASCAR gets suspicious. I'm 100% positive neither Joe nor J.D. Gibbs knew about the magnets. I'm also positive that possibly losing millions of sponsorship dollars is not what Toyota and JGR had in mind. No amount of Robin Pemberton fines and suspensions will matter to the advertisers.
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Post by Deadskins »

GSPODS wrote:
JSPB22 wrote:Isn't NASCAR supposed to be stock cars? If you want may-the-fastest-car-win watch formula 1. I wish they would use real stock cars; the same thing any schmo with enough money could go down to the dealership and buy. That would be interesting.


Stock-Appearing cars. They haven't raced actual Stock Cars since one of "The Big Three", that is to say since Dodge Chrysler Plymouth left NASCAR because their 426 Hemi was banned, even though it was a stock engine. Since no other manufacturer could compete with the 750-800 Horses the 426 Hemi with the modified 6-8 Pack Carb was putting out, NASCAR started changing the rules to level the playing field. That was back in the 1970's.
Which is why I don't understand why you care so much to follow the day-to-day goings on of NASCAR. I wasn't asking for a history lesson. :roll:
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Post by GSPODS »

JSPB22 wrote:
GSPODS wrote:
JSPB22 wrote:Isn't NASCAR supposed to be stock cars? If you want may-the-fastest-car-win watch formula 1. I wish they would use real stock cars; the same thing any schmo with enough money could go down to the dealership and buy. That would be interesting.


Stock-Appearing cars. They haven't raced actual Stock Cars since one of "The Big Three", that is to say since Dodge Chrysler Plymouth left NASCAR because their 426 Hemi was banned, even though it was a stock engine. Since no other manufacturer could compete with the 750-800 Horses the 426 Hemi with the modified 6-8 Pack Carb was putting out, NASCAR started changing the rules to level the playing field. That was back in the 1970's.
Which is why I don't understand why you care so much to follow the day-to-day goings on of NASCAR. I wasn't asking for a history lesson. :roll:


Excuse me for trying to answer what looked like, and still looks like a question. If it was rhetorical, it's not evident on a message board.
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Post by Deadskins »

GSPODS wrote:
JSPB22 wrote:
GSPODS wrote:
JSPB22 wrote:Isn't NASCAR supposed to be stock cars? If you want may-the-fastest-car-win watch formula 1. I wish they would use real stock cars; the same thing any schmo with enough money could go down to the dealership and buy. That would be interesting.


Stock-Appearing cars. They haven't raced actual Stock Cars since one of "The Big Three", that is to say since Dodge Chrysler Plymouth left NASCAR because their 426 Hemi was banned, even though it was a stock engine. Since no other manufacturer could compete with the 750-800 Horses the 426 Hemi with the modified 6-8 Pack Carb was putting out, NASCAR started changing the rules to level the playing field. That was back in the 1970's.
Which is why I don't understand why you care so much to follow the day-to-day goings on of NASCAR. I wasn't asking for a history lesson. :roll:


Excuse me for trying to answer what looked like, and still looks like a question. If it was rhetorical, it's not evident on a message board.

I think it's perfectly clear if you read the three sentences immediately following the one that you highlighted.
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Post by GSPODS »

JSPB22 wrote:
GSPODS wrote:
JSPB22 wrote:
GSPODS wrote:
JSPB22 wrote:Isn't NASCAR supposed to be stock cars? If you want may-the-fastest-car-win watch formula 1. I wish they would use real stock cars; the same thing any schmo with enough money could go down to the dealership and buy. That would be interesting.


Stock-Appearing cars. They haven't raced actual Stock Cars since one of "The Big Three", that is to say since Dodge Chrysler Plymouth left NASCAR because their 426 Hemi was banned, even though it was a stock engine. Since no other manufacturer could compete with the 750-800 Horses the 426 Hemi with the modified 6-8 Pack Carb was putting out, NASCAR started changing the rules to level the playing field. That was back in the 1970's.
Which is why I don't understand why you care so much to follow the day-to-day goings on of NASCAR. I wasn't asking for a history lesson. :roll:


Excuse me for trying to answer what looked like, and still looks like a question. If it was rhetorical, it's not evident on a message board.

I think it's perfectly clear if you read the three sentences immediately following the one that you highlighted.


By that logic, the only thing that is clear is that the post has nothing to do with JGR being caught for cheating, and I should not have replied for that reason.
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Post by Deadskins »

GSPODS wrote:By that logic, the only thing that is clear is that the post has nothing to do with JGR being caught for cheating, and I should not have replied for that reason.

:roll:
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Post by Fios »

Part of what motivates the severity of the reaction here is the anger at the success Toyota has had this season. Ford, Chevy and GM still have lots of pull in this, I believe they've been lobbying to see Toyota slapped in some way. It would be too painful to admit Toyota has made a great car.
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Post by GSPODS »

Fios wrote:Part of what motivates the severity of the reaction here is the anger at the success Toyota has had this season. Ford, Chevy and GM still have lots of pull in this, I believe they've been lobbying to see Toyota slapped in some way. It would be too painful to admit Toyota has made a great car.


NASCAR already admitted it for Toyota when they changed the restrictor plates (yet again) to lower Toyota's horsepower by 15 to equal that of the competition. The reason for the complaints, I think, has as much to do with the fact that Tony Stewart is a jerk as anything else. Nobody much likes him at all, and I think his name is why this has been made such an issue. He's almost always in the Top 10, and frequently in the Top 5. It can't possibly be that he's both a jerk and a good driver. It has to be that he's a jerk and a cheater. Well, if you ask anyone else that's what it has to be. Besides, NASCAR's personal, handpicked pretty boys, Dale Jr. and Jeff Gordon aren't winning enough. They have to do something about that. So they'll check JGR but not any other teams until somebody else starts winning too many races. Then we'll read about another team. They all cheat. And they admit it, but they call it a "competitive advantage."
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Post by hailskins666 »

Fios wrote:Part of what motivates the severity of the reaction here is the anger at the success Toyota has had this season. Ford, Chevy and GM still have lots of pull in this, I believe they've been lobbying to see Toyota slapped in some way. It would be too painful to admit Toyota has made a great car.
its not so much that toyota has made a gret car, its just so new. gm and ford could blow the doors off of the yotas, if there were no restrictions. yotas have had less restrictions overall, to catch up to the competition. which they have done. you will see a more competitive and equal field next year.

most of what neckcar has done is for saftey reasons. when cars in stock shape are traveling more than 210 mph down the straights at talledega and daytona, there was no choice but to put restrictions on the cars. they didn't want drivers getting killed by going airbourne, and they MOST CERTAINLY did not want those cars flying into the first fews rows of spectators, raising the fatality count even more.

the NHRA has done the same thing in drag racing to the top fuel and funny car class, by limiting them to running 1000 feet, instead of 1320 feet, the full quarter mile, after scott kalittas death earlier in the season. the have to side with saftey first, which i understand. but it hurts the roots and traditions of the sport.

i really despise neckcar, but understand some of the rules. the rules applying to toyota were for a season, so they could get acclimated to the sport. the teams like JGR, that switched, realized that there was INDEED a slight advantage. props to JGR for making that change. they saw an opening and went for it. it may net them a championship. unfortuatley for JGR, someone on the payroll made a decision that affected the ENTIRE team.

you are no stronger than your weakest link..... the magnet men were very costly.

again, i have no love for neckcar, but you have to side with saftey. but you don't have to give different rules to different makes, because they are just getting into the sport. the nfl certainly doesn't change rules so the houston texans can be more competitive, it is a slap in the face to ALL of the guys who have devoted thier lives to the sport, and fought hard to get to where they are at.
THN's resident jerk.

Glock .40 Model 22 - First* line of home defense.... 'ADT' is for liberals.
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