Does Santana have a future with this team?

[skinsrule84]

As everyone knows, we drafted Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas very high in the draft. Lets just think a little to the future, say Devin and Kelly show us enough flashes in the next 1-2 seasons for them to be handed the starting jobs (again, im not saying this season). So what does this mean for Santana's future with the Skins? What's his contract situation? Did we draft Kelly/Thomas to possibly let Santana leave when his contract is up?

I personally think Santana or ARE will be traded in the next 2-3 seasons. Not that I want either of them gone, Kelly and Thomas are extremely talented, and i think we drafted these youngsters to be the main 1-2 WR's of this team.

Also sorry if im making these a little pre-maturely, i know either one of these rooks have even touched the field in the pros yet, i just have a feeling these guys are gonna be damn good. I guess you can say I'm a bit of an optomist.

[djlash]

Recievers that are drafted high RARELY make an impact right away, and I don't know the stats but many of them just fail outright. Now I'm not saying that Kelly and Thomas will fail but the numbers aren't exactly with them. I think that ARE and Moss are very good recievers and as long as they keep their speed and health, I see them in our future.

[VetSkinsFan]

The thing you fail to consider is that ARE and Moss are already established in the NFL as starting quality receivers (don't argue that point, I didn't say the were elite, just stating that they have started and can start if needed). Kelly and Thomas, while excelling in their collegiate careers, haven't proved anything except they can sign a contract. Both are injured, so we haven't even seen them in a game time situation (both 0-2 in preseason appearances). Until they get a few seasons under their belt, my money's on ARE and Moss who have already got their feet wet.

[Skinna Mob]

I would have to agree with VetSkinsFan.

[BnGhog]

It is a fact that many high draft pick WRs fail.

That could be the plain and simple reason we drafted two of them. Double our chances of getting a real impact player.

That in itself could help both of these rooks. If drafted to be the undisputed #1 WR on a team, with all the fame and everything included, sometimes that is what ruins a draft pick.

This way we have two of them and they both have to prove themselves to see the field. I like it that way.

[langleyparkjoe]

Yea, Santana isn't going anywhere. The thought that we'd get rid of him is like.. wack.. next topic

Go Skins!

[GSPODS]

Does Santana Moss have a future with the Redskins? Not much of one.
Santana Moss is not a legitimate #1 receiver. Not by a long shot. A career best of 84 receptions (one time) with a second best of 74 receptions, and a third best of 61 receptions makes a great #3 receiver, not a #1 receiver, or even a legitimate #2 receiver. Chris ey caught more receptions last season. As a matter of fact, 36 players caught more receptions last season.

The reason for drafting Thomas and Kelly is that top two receivers combined barely caught more passes than the top receivers in the league did by themselves last season.

Six players caught at least 100 receptions last season.
Fourteen players caught at least 90 receptions.
Twenty-one player caught at least 80 receptions.
Thirty players caught at least 70 receptions.
No Redskins player was in the Top 30.
The Redskins top two receivers, ey and Moss combined, had 127 receptions. Houshmandzadeh and Welker had 112 each.

To be among the best teams in today's pass-heavy NFL, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch 200 receptions.
To be competitive, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch at least 150 receptions. The Redskins fall far short of that mark.

Jim Zorn's QB completed 94 passes to Bobby Engram last season. I think he is fully aware of the Redskins issues at wide receiver. Sanatana Moss being the #1 wide receiver is easily one of them.

[saratogan]

Either Kelly or Thomas (maybe Mix or McMullen) need to excel. It is very important to the success of Zorn's WC scheme. Moss and REL have shown too many injuries problems when trying to handle the load.

Kelly was starting to impress coaches (and me) until his knee injury. Currently, McMullen has stepped up his play and showed good ability during the last game to keep him in the mix.

[Irn-Bru]

Either Kelly or Thomas (maybe Mix or McMullen) need to excel. It is very important to the success of Zorn's WC scheme. Moss and REL have shown too many injuries problems when trying to handle the load.

Kelly was starting to impress coaches (and me) until his knee injury. Currently, McMullen has stepped up his play and showed good ability during the last game to keep him in the mix.

Welcome to the board, saratogan!

[VetSkinsFan]

Does Santana Moss have a future with the Redskins? Not much of one.
Santana Moss is not a legitimate #1 receiver. Not by a long shot. A career best of 84 receptions (one time) with a second best of 74 receptions, and a third best of 61 receptions makes a great #3 receiver, not a #1 receiver, or even a legitimate #2 receiver. Chris ey caught more receptions last season. As a matter of fact, 36 players caught more receptions last season.

The reason for drafting Thomas and Kelly is that top two receivers combined barely caught more passes than the top receivers in the league did by themselves last season.

Six players caught at least 100 receptions last season.
Fourteen players caught at least 90 receptions.
Twenty-one player caught at least 80 receptions.
Thirty players caught at least 70 receptions.
No Redskins player was in the Top 30.
The Redskins top two receivers, ey and Moss combined, had 127 receptions. Houshmandzadeh and Welker had 112 each.

To be among the best teams in today's pass-heavy NFL, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch 200 receptions.
To be competitive, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch at least 150 receptions. The Redskins fall far short of that mark.

Jim Zorn's QB completed 94 passes to Bobby Engram last season. I think he is fully aware of the Redskins issues at wide receiver. Sanatana Moss being the #1 wide receiver is easily one of them.

It's a lot more compicated than QB to WR only. There's running game implications (Moss has played in a run heavy offense in his stint in Redskisn territory). I disagree that to be the best OFFENSE, the top two have to catch 100 balls each. With 3 and 4 WR sets, RB out of hte backfield (pretty common in WCO), the likelyhood of a good (not superelite) WR catching a hundred balls, with a pro-bowl TE, isn't as likely. I'm sure Zorn has a plan, and I hav efaith that it will be at least partially successful. Tallying all RB/FB, we ran 444 times in the regular season, 325 by CP alone. You don't think that's going to affect the total catches? In comparison, Seattle had 384 rushing attempts with all RB/FB. That's 60 less rushes, giving more opportunities for those elevated pass numbers. Also for reference, there were 371 pass completions by Seattle QBs and only 317 for Was QBs....

[aswas71788]

Have I missed something? I do not remember seeing Thomas or Kelly play in a game yet. While they may pan out in the future, as of yet they have not proved they can play in the NFL. They were probably drafted with the idea that they would rep[lace someone. That is only good business.

Our Moss may not be the other Moss but he has proven that he can play. His problem is that he is injury prone. He has had only 1 full season of playing witout an injury. For now, Moss and Randle El are the best we have.

[MDSKINSFAN]

Recievers that are drafted high RARELY make an impact right away, and I don't know the stats but many of them just fail outright. Now I'm not saying that Kelly and Thomas will fail but the numbers aren't exactly with them. I think that ARE and Moss are very good recievers and as long as they keep their speed and health, I see them in our future.

yea odds are that at least one of the rookies are gonna fail, hopefully not, but not many receivers are great right away

[PulpExposure]

To be among the best teams in today's pass-heavy NFL, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch 200 receptions.
To be competitive, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch at least 150 receptions. The Redskins fall far short of that mark.

Just curious, how many teams #1 and #2 wideouts met even your 150 reception standard?

I mean, I bet the Colts, Patriots, Cardinals all met that standard (150, or even 200 for the Colts and Cardinals).

But the Steelers #1 and #2 didn't have 150 total, and the Steelers had 34 Passing TDs (3rd best in the league) The Packers #1 and #2 didn't combine for 150, and they still had the 2nd most passing yards in the league.

I guess they weren't competitive?

[SkinsHead56]

I will take the hypothetical approach to this.

Short answer. Yes, Thomas & Kelly were drafted to be our starting recivers in the FUTURE. This is the case with every draft pick every year at every position. If it were not the case no one would pick in the first three rounds of the draft to save cap space. Teams would draft a bunch of backups & spend big on proven free agents to be starters.

Does this mean Tana will be gone at the end of his current contract? Difficut to say but I will say this if his speed & elusiveness start to diminish then you can bet the farm he will be replaced or at the very least he will move to the Slot were he can play against a nickle CB.

[Skinna Mob]

Santana maybe not be elite in some peoples eyes... But I will never doubt him or the Redskins. Especially when I think back to that crucial Monday nighter when "ol'lefty" and Santana connected with 2 vicious hay-makers to the chin of the cowgirls.

[Paralis]

Does Santana Moss have a future with the Redskins? Not much of one.
Santana Moss is not a legitimate #1 receiver. Not by a long shot. A career best of 84 receptions (one time) with a second best of 74 receptions, and a third best of 61 receptions makes a great #3 receiver, not a #1 receiver, or even a legitimate #2 receiver. Chris ey caught more receptions last season. As a matter of fact, 36 players caught more receptions last season.

The reason for drafting Thomas and Kelly is that top two receivers combined barely caught more passes than the top receivers in the league did by themselves last season.

Six players caught at least 100 receptions last season.
Fourteen players caught at least 90 receptions.
Twenty-one player caught at least 80 receptions.
Thirty players caught at least 70 receptions.
No Redskins player was in the Top 30.
The Redskins top two receivers, ey and Moss combined, had 127 receptions. Houshmandzadeh and Welker had 112 each.

To be among the best teams in today's pass-heavy NFL, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch 200 receptions.
To be competitive, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch at least 150 receptions. The Redskins fall far short of that mark.

Jim Zorn's QB completed 94 passes to Bobby Engram last season. I think he is fully aware of the Redskins issues at wide receiver. Sanatana Moss being the #1 wide receiver is easily one of them.

A scattering of counterpoints:

- San Diego, Jacksonville, Tennessee, New York, Green Bay, and Tampa Bay were playoff teams last year that didn't have a pair of receivers that approached 150 receptions. Of the elite passing offenses, the Colts and Cowboys didn't make 200 receptions; Indianapolis didn't, of course, but that was injuries, not scheme, and Dallas gets to about 180 with Owens and Witten.
- If the Redskins are going to try to look anything like the 2007 Seahawks on offense this year, we might as well concede the season now. Bobby Engram catching 94 balls is a weakness (in the rushing game and in the depth chart at WR and TE), not a strength.
- Santana Moss's career YPC is about 15, and over his 5 years as a starter has averaged about 65 for about 1000 yards. There has *never* been a #3 WR with that kind of production, and the list of #2s isn't long.

The main difference between Moss and those other players, though, is that Moss hasn't been paired with an all-pro QB or all-pro WR to enhance his numbers. He was legitimately a top-5 WR in the NFL in 2005 who has since struggled with Mark Brunell throwing the football, and injury, and in his last 7 games last year, counting his horrible day in Tampa and the dud against Chicago, he still caught 37 balls for 511 yards.

So the question, IMO, isn't "is he a #1 receiver?". He is. He has the talent, and when he plays, he's had the production. The question is "can he stay healthy?" and that's anybody's guess. I sure hope so.

[GSPODS]

To be among the best teams in today's pass-heavy NFL, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch 200 receptions.
To be competitive, your #1 and #2 wide receivers have to catch at least 150 receptions. The Redskins fall far short of that mark.

Just curious, how many teams #1 and #2 wideouts met even your 150 reception standard?

I mean, I bet the Colts, Patriots, Cardinals all met that standard (150, or even 200 for the Colts and Cardinals).

But the Steelers #1 and #2 didn't have 150 total, and the Steelers had 34 Passing TDs (3rd best in the league) The Packers #1 and #2 didn't combine for 150, and they still had the 2nd most passing yards in the league.

I guess they weren't competitive?

And Brian Westbrook had 90 by himself.
Passing TD's is the wrong category to discuss with the Redskins.
I'm talking about being competitive.
Even the Falcons and the Ravens were close to the 150 mark, the Falcons at 136 and the Ravens at 151. If those teams at 5-11 and 4-12 can get close to the mark, why can't the Redskins? I won't even waste your time looking up all of the better teams. The Redskins wide receivers are below average. That is why it was made a priority in the draft. Freaking Braylon Edwards caught 20 more passes than Santana Moss last season. Argue that a 60 reception receiver is a legitimate #1 or #2 receiver if you like. The production compared with the rest of the league says otherwise.
Moss is still around because he is the best option available, not because he is a legitimate option, or even a legitimate threat. He isn't.
Moss had 3 TD receptions last season. That ties him for 68th in the league. Randle El had 1. Legitimate #1 and #2 wide receivers, my arse. Both will be moved or gone as soon as the Redskins can groom or acquire legitimate #1 and #2 wide receivers.

[Sgraham]

We haven't even played a regular seaosn game yet. Santana Moss is here for the foreseeable future. I can't even believe this is a topic for discussion. I can't believe that I am discussing it with you guys. Next topic!

[PulpExposure]

Argue that a 60 reception receiver is a legitimate #1 or #2 receiver if you like. The production compared with the rest of the league says otherwise.

You're arguing 60 receptions in vacuum isn't a legit #1 production. Sure, you're right there.

However, there's this thing called real life, where Santana was injured for most of the year. You can't compare someone's production at full strength the entire year to production from someone who was injured for most of it.

Or, I guess you can, if you want to look at things simplistically.

When healthy, he's a legit #1. The problem with Santana, is that he's just not healthy and you can't depend on him to be healthy.

[GSPODS]

[I'm going to assume you missed the entire post because I did mention Santana Moss' best three seasons, not simply last season. Even 84 receptions, his career best, is well short of being a top tier #1 receiver.

No, I read the entire thread, including your post, unfortunately.

It really depends on how you define a #1. If you define it as a possession receiver, than yes, 84 receptions isn't great. 1484 yards is certainly what you'd expect from a #1. Some #1s do it by catching a lot of passes. Many don't.

Santana Moss' value comes from his speed & being a threat to score at any time. That's why you throw him the ball...not to catch a 8 yard out and get you 8 yards. You throw him a slant and hope he takes it the distance.

Seriously, look at the Bengals. TJ catches more passes, but CJ is the #1 because CJ is a threat to score from anywhere on the field...while TJ really is not.

James Lofton...did you consider him a #1 receiver? His teams (and the Hall of Fame) certainly did, but the dude never caught those 5 yard hitches and racked up a thousand catches. He was a pure long-ball threat.

[KazooSkinsFan]

When healthy, he's a legit #1. The problem with Santana, is that he's just not healthy and you can't depend on him to be healthy.

That's where getting more targets can really help. If we can use him as the threat he is but have more then Moss and ey for JC to throw to it could be a real win-win where we get some great plays by Moss while also using Moss's speed to open it up for some of the other guys. Lloyd being a bust really hurt us there. And at the same time it makes it easier for Moss to stay healthy.

[brad7686]

He can't catch, he gets muscled out of his routes, and he is an injury risk. I think he will have some decent success in Zorn's system, I think all the WR's will, but he will want number one or two receiver money, and the redskins should not be dumb enough to give that to him.

[El Mexican]

On first instance I thought this thread said: "Does SATAN have a future with this team?". Jajajaja!

Now, back on topic...

I´ve never seen Santana as a no.1 receiver. He´s more of a deep-threat in my opinion. In that aspect he does excell. As your every down go-to guy, not so much. In todays NFL you hardly see his body prototype at no.1.

He´s had two great seasons. One with the Skins.

Gibbs brought him in an effort to emulate a smurf receiver corps he had in his first time around here.

[HanburgerHelper]

I think if we're all being honest with each other, we have to admit the fact that we haven't had a top notch QB to get WRs the ball and Santana Moss was double teamed a lot over his tenure because we just didn't have a threat on the other side. Randal El helped but he still hasn't blossomed either. I think the O-line and its health has had a lot to do with it too. Lots of misfires in the engine.

Now, I hope our QBs develop into real threats and that some of our draft picks and FA pickups can relieve pressure on Moss and he can excel in the new system. I think it's good for him. Lots of potential YAC yardage. You could see Moss used like NE uses Wes Welker (in the slot) or for deep balls, or for WR screens/quick hitches.

I love the new picks but very disappointed in their injuries, especially right out of the gates. I think Malcom Kelly's potential for injury was there looking at his history but he's young enough to bounce back. If Devin Thomas stays healthy and hungry he could be a star. Time will tell.

I don't know how much trade value Moss has compared to what he can do for our team. Keep him for as long as we can I say. Put him back to return kicks if you don't think he's doing enough. I'm sure he can do that too.

[Bob 0119]

Even if Kelly and Thomas do take over the number one and two spots someday, there are typically 5 recievers on the team at any given time.

This means that Moss may stay on as the number three, or could become trade fodder for either a free agent, or draft picks.

Either way the Redskins win.